Fortis, I don't really have any issues going to clubs because I choose to go to ones that don't discriminate. And hey if you don't like wearing a baseball jersey that's cool. I've started collecting and wearing the jersey's of African American players that I grew up watching and like to match them with some Jordan's. Everyone has their own style. And I'm not saying that I love women that are ratchet but I find that type of environment more fun than something uptight. A lot of clubs are go to are full of college girls into hip-hop that consists of 2 Chainz or something like that. It's just my preference. To each their own. And my style isn't dated...if your not down with it, cool. I'm not out here wearing any size XL clothes. A nice M size jersey with some skinny jeans is fresh to me.

I think my biggest issues is when one says the clubs keep out "hood niggas" well that's still my kind, so I'm going to second think about trying out a place doing that.

Kirdiesel, the type of clothes don't make me who I am. To be honest man you sound like you're kind of bourgeois and put yourself in another class than black people you deem ghetto. If that's how you are, that's fine. I'm not like that.

I can fully attest to getting immediately judged by your outward appearance. When I transitioned from the 3J's (Jerseys, Jeans & Jordans), to Polo's jeans and A1's I noticed a difference. Further, when I transitioned from that to loafers, jeans and a blazer, I noticed even more of a change in peoples initial impression and the way I was treated.This, of course, all came with age, in my 20's, 30's and now 40's respectively.
Many variables of social interaction are out of your control, however your appearance and the ability to shape perception isn't. I don't judge anyone by how they look because I know I did the same thing, even sagging my pants back n the day, lol.
Bottom line, no matter what you wear, present and carry yourself well and you'll be fine. Like I tell my sons, keep a fresh fade, line-up, with your beard and stache even along with clean shoes and freshly pressed clothes and you're already two steps ahead of the game.

(08-10-2016 09:54 PM)jayesco Wrote:  Fortis, I don't really have any issues going to clubs because I choose to go to ones that don't discriminate. And hey if you don't like wearing a baseball jersey that's cool. I've started collecting and wearing the jersey's of African American players that I grew up watching and like to match them with some Jordan's. Everyone has their own style. And I'm not saying that I love women that are ratchet but I find that type of environment more fun than something uptight. A lot of clubs are go to are full of college girls into hip-hop that consists of 2 Chainz or something like that. It's just my preference. To each their own. And my style isn't dated...if your not down with it, cool. I'm not out here wearing any size XL clothes. A nice M size jersey with some skinny jeans is fresh to me.

I think my biggest issues is when one says the clubs keep out "hood niggas" well that's still my kind, so I'm going to second think about trying out a place doing that.

Kirdiesel, the type of clothes don't make me who I am. To be honest man you sound like you're kind of bourgeois and put yourself in another class than black people you deem ghetto. If that's how you are, that's fine. I'm not like that.

I don't see anything wrong with what kirdiesel said. We are in a different class than guys deemed ghetto. That's the problem with the black community as a whole. We feel that there can't be a clear line of demarcation simply because we are all the same color. No different than a white guy who says he doesn't like hanging around trailer trash white people. You might be into that culture of going to hood spots, but don't call into questions others personality who shun away from that stuff. I can tell you from first hand experience growing up in a poverty stricken community that most of that ghetto shit people like to glorify(due to media) isn't shit to be admired or even desired. I for one will take an uppity club with a strict dress code over some hood spot just to see some chicks twerk.

Also wearing what you want to wear doesn't define the man. That I agree with you on, but then you can't complain if you get pre-judged because of that(not saying you directly but people overall). You have to (and probably already do) recognize the world we live in and people more often times than not judge a book by its cover. It's basic primal human instinct. You can be dressed like shit and be worth a million dollars. Guess what everyone else sees, a guy dressed like shit. Presentation is just as important in some aspects of life as your actual monetary and educational worth.

(Apologies for grammar, half ass texting from my cell)
-CD

(08-11-2016 11:03 AM)coverdoc Wrote:  

(08-10-2016 09:54 PM)jayesco Wrote:  Fortis, I don't really have any issues going to clubs because I choose to go to ones that don't discriminate. And hey if you don't like wearing a baseball jersey that's cool. I've started collecting and wearing the jersey's of African American players that I grew up watching and like to match them with some Jordan's. Everyone has their own style. And I'm not saying that I love women that are ratchet but I find that type of environment more fun than something uptight. A lot of clubs are go to are full of college girls into hip-hop that consists of 2 Chainz or something like that. It's just my preference. To each their own. And my style isn't dated...if your not down with it, cool. I'm not out here wearing any size XL clothes. A nice M size jersey with some skinny jeans is fresh to me.

I think my biggest issues is when one says the clubs keep out "hood niggas" well that's still my kind, so I'm going to second think about trying out a place doing that.

Kirdiesel, the type of clothes don't make me who I am. To be honest man you sound like you're kind of bourgeois and put yourself in another class than black people you deem ghetto. If that's how you are, that's fine. I'm not like that.

I don't see anything wrong with what kirdiesel said. We are in a different class than guys deemed ghetto. That's the problem with the black community as a whole. We feel that there can't be a clear line of demarcation simply because we are all the same color. No different than a white guy who says he doesn't like hanging around trailer trash white people. You might be into that culture of going to hood spots, but don't call into questions others personality who shun away from that stuff. I can tell you from first hand experience growing up in a poverty stricken community that most of that ghetto shit people like to glorify(due to media) isn't shit to be admired or even desired. I for one will take an uppity club with a strict dress code over some hood spot just to see some chicks twerk.

Also wearing what you want to wear doesn't define the man. That I agree with you on, but then you can't complain if you get pre-judged because of that(not saying you directly but people overall). You have to (and probably already do) recognize the world we live in and people more often times than not judge a book by its cover. It's basic primal human instinct. You can be dressed like shit and be worth a million dollars. Guess what everyone else sees, a guy dressed like shit. Presentation is just as important in some aspects of life as your actual monetary and educational worth.

(Apologies for grammar, half ass texting from my cell)
-CD

I hear your side of this and I understand it but it's just not a side I choose to take. Do I condone people out committing crimes and getting into trouble? No, of course not. I'm not using the word "ghetto" or "ratchet" to talk about drug dealers and such. I just want to make that clear. Anyway, I'm not going to automatically see someone dressed like me and connect them with bad intentions. A lot of my family is still struggling and living in bad neighborhoods but I'm not going to treat them any differently or see them less. To be honest, I wouldn't be where I was today if there wasn't people looking out for me during various situations in my life. At the end of the day, I'm black and that's what people are going to see before anything else. My father always told me that I can do whatever I want, but when you're around other people not like you and something goes missing you're going to be the first one they look at.

Lemme repeat myself

At some of these venues, they assume the black guy in slacks, dress shirt and dress shoes is ratchet/hood/ghetto. He's a dressed up troublemaker, troublemaker nonetheless.

This is not a wardrobe discussion.

Racism is so insidious that the victims blame themselves. Like you brought these things on yourself, like there isn't someone working actively against you.

I just wasn't "X" enough, or i was too much "Y".

WIA

That is one thing that does annoy me about the black community... One cannot distance themselves from the ghettoness or rachetness without being seen as bourgeois. Ive seen so many educated black people ,my family) included,... dumb themselves down when talking to other blacks in order to "keep it real" and not be seen as an outsider. I do see myself in a different class than blacks I deem ghetto because in my opinion ghetto people are one part (there are more) of the reason we get treated the way we do.

Archie - You are right racism is real and will be there so matter what you do! Some peoples minds cannot be changed no matter how you act or how much money you got or whatever success you achieve. Hell there are people out there still calling Obama the N word.

However as crazy as this sounds I seen myself as somewhat a of pioneer type brother. I like to go where no other blacks go, prove people wrong and do my best to break stereotypes.

There is a club here called "Vanity" and its not a club I frequent often (due to overly loud music) and they tend to be a bit racist. I ended up going there one night and of course the doorman was racist to me and I kept my cool and kept smiling through his comments about "if i caused trouble a security guy would come to get me" I said no problem Im not here at all to make trouble and he could hold on to my ID if he wanted to.... Its outright racism and noone else would have to do that.

Now some of you guys might see this as begging or whatever but I see it from a different perspective.

He was impressed that I offered him to hold on to my ID and had a friendly manner about everything and decided to let me in. I went there... had my drinks and left and thanked him for letting me in upon leaving the venue.

In my opinion, I showed him (at least a little) that there are decent brothers out there who just want to come and have a good time and enjoy themselves and not cause any trouble. Maybe I just changed his mind about us just a little bit. Maybe next time a brother rolls up the club he'll have an easier time than I did.

I see where you're coming from, but why would your patronize a place like that? If they start bullshit at the door, I'm out. I'll speak with my money and hit up a spot where dudes aren't coming at me like I'm some sort of asshole. That's a big pet peeve for me.

As with all black dudes, I've been accused to stealing and shit, even by some close (non-black) friends, and I cannot tolerate being treated like an asshole when I've done nothing. Perhaps I'm projecting, but I think many would agree with me when I say fuck that club and that bouncer.

It's one thing for a spot to say "hey man, you can't get in with them jordans on" but it's a completely different thing for some bouncer to threaten me preemptively about causing trouble. Fuck that shit.

I agree with you on some things, Kirdiesel, but I don't think that was a victory. Your dignity is worth more than some membership to some shitty racist club.

(08-10-2016 09:54 PM)jayesco Wrote:  Fortis, I don't really have any issues going to clubs because I choose to go to ones that don't discriminate. And hey if you don't like wearing a baseball jersey that's cool. I've started collecting and wearing the jersey's of African American players that I grew up watching and like to match them with some Jordan's. Everyone has their own style. And I'm not saying that I love women that are ratchet but I find that type of environment more fun than something uptight. A lot of clubs are go to are full of college girls into hip-hop that consists of 2 Chainz or something like that. It's just my preference. To each their own. And my style isn't dated...if your not down with it, cool. I'm not out here wearing any size XL clothes. A nice M size jersey with some skinny jeans is fresh to me.

I think my biggest issues is when one says the clubs keep out "hood niggas" well that's still my kind, so I'm going to second think about trying out a place doing that.

Kirdiesel, the type of clothes don't make me who I am. To be honest man you sound like you're kind of bourgeois and put yourself in another class than black people you deem ghetto. If that's how you are, that's fine. I'm not like that.

But people who are bourgeois are in other classes than people who are ghetto. You're essentially saying that black=ghetto.

^I don't think I was saying that at all. Sorry if you took it that way.

Damn danielllll, I would have not spent a dollar in that club.

-CD

(08-11-2016 02:23 PM)coverdoc Wrote:  Damn danielllll, I would have not spent a dollar in that club.

-CD

Forealz!

Almost reminds me of the Scorpion and the Frog story, lol

If no one tries to push their way in who will?

How are things supposed to change? Do you guys have a better idea?

(08-11-2016 02:41 PM)kirdiesel Wrote:  If no one tries to push their way in who will?

How are things supposed to change? Do you guys have a better idea?

yeah, spend your money where they don't automatically stereotype you. For a lot of those type of people, you actually don't end up changing their minds about your race, they just put you in the exception category. What's crazy is he made you, a brother who is probably smarter and more successful than he'll ever be, qualify yourself to him. That's a female tactic and I would have looked him right in his eyes, laughed and walked off.

-CD

Maybe I've become cynical, but certainly can't knock you for trying. I remember being in law school and expected to enlighten melanin devoid folk somehow by sharing my experiences so they'll get a more diverse legal education. No Thanks. If you haven't learned prospectives outside of your own by graduate school, chances are you'll never learn them and I didn't feel it was my job to teach them. At some point, in your adult life, the way you treat people becomes a choice not a circumstance.

@Kirdiesel

Build your own.

As Jay said, we brought the suburbs to us.

Cats want to do the least, put in the least amount of effort. That's human. We're an energy conserving species.

But we need to be doing the most.

If I was in Berlin, I'd be looking for a space that I could rent. Then I'd look at the popular dj's that tour in Berlin. Then I'd find those international dj's and see who is coming up underneath them. The guys who are about to break.

I'd build that scene. It would cost time money and effort, but now you're controlling the door, you're the one who decides who gets in. You're the one with the big email list.

Real social proof

It's a lot of work, more than most guys are willing to do. Guys like me and you. And then there are guys like Puffy.

On the economic tip, everyone in this thread should be building something online. Blog, podcast, e commerce, eBay hustle. We need to be doing something where we can't be stopped because people don't want to deal with blacks

WIA

(08-11-2016 02:52 PM)coverdoc Wrote:  

(08-11-2016 02:41 PM)kirdiesel Wrote:  If no one tries to push their way in who will?

How are things supposed to change? Do you guys have a better idea?

yeah, spend your money where they don't automatically stereotype you. For a lot of those type of people, you actually don't end up changing their minds about your race, they just put you in the exception category. What's crazy is he made you, a brother who is probably smarter and more successful than he'll ever be, qualify yourself to him. That's a female tactic and I would have looked him right in his eyes, laughed and walked off.

-CD

So if blacks are not "allowed" or shunned from living in certain places (which is often the case in some cities) are you not going to try to push your way in and buy that house or rent that nice spot?

Are we supposed to just stay in our lane because someone doesn't want us there? I don't get it?

I mean its not something I do every week... I'm mostly at places here that welcome my business or know me but I gotta step out the box and push every now and then.

Forcing your self into venues where you aren't wanted won't solve the problem. The assumption is that they can be won over. Experience has shown me this is not the case. If anything it cements their superiority complex . Because you have this obviously unwanted patron who still wants to be in their presence seeking approval and validation.
.
.

(08-11-2016 10:54 AM)DimeBait Wrote:  I can fully attest to getting immediately judged by your outward appearance. When I transitioned from the 3J's (Jerseys, Jeans & Jordans), to Polo's jeans and A1's I noticed a difference. Further, when I transitioned from that to loafers, jeans and a blazer, I noticed even more of a change in peoples initial impression and the way I was treated.This, of course, all came with age, in my 20's, 30's and now 40's respectively.
Many variables of social interaction are out of your control, however your appearance and the ability to shape perception isn't. I don't judge anyone by how they look because I know I did the same thing, even sagging my pants back n the day, lol.
Bottom line, no matter what you wear, present and carry yourself well and you'll be fine. Like I tell my sons, keep a fresh fade, line-up, with your beard and stache even along with clean shoes and freshly pressed clothes and you're already two steps ahead of the game.

I like what you said and that you matured with age. I don't knock the 15 year old kid sagging his pants with a snapback on backwards, I did the same thing. I don't assume hes a thug or about that street life he's probably just being an adolescent and emulating rappers.

I do judge the 35 year old who is pulling up his pants every 30 secs while walking with his 11 year old son or daughter. That brotha is old enough to know better, not only that he is the image of black masculinity his children will most identify with. We gotta do better than that. Somewhere between 15 and 35 that guy should have matured but some people stay stuck where they are with the same limited mentality.

Nothing is more pathetic than guys in their 40s and 50s with nothing mad at other people's success and chastising them for not keeping it "real". I was watching a documentary recently on Jay-z's life where they interviewed his old friends and associates still in the hood hating on him for transitioning from Jerseys to suits back in 2003. He even got dissed for wearing sandals back in 05' from dudes without 1/10 of his wealth but tons more street cred, whatever thats worth.

The issue of being denied entry to a club has way more to do with choice of clothing, perceived importance and gender ratios than race. I was out every night in Russia last week, hit a number of clubs and not once did I have an issue getting in. Nice shoes, and a fitted shirt go a long way. Hell, I would have suited up fully if it hadn't been so hot. The face control from bouncers was real, but as soon as they see you smartly dressed with a good vibe and some cute girls, there are no issues.

If man rolls deep to some swanky club with bare man dem rocking creps and hoodies and can't get in, am I justified in crying racism? Perhaps. Regardless, I don't roll with that crowd or go to those types of places anymore.

(08-11-2016 03:02 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  On the economic tip, everyone in this thread should be building something online. Blog, podcast, e commerce, eBay hustle. We need to be doing something where we can't be stopped because people don't want to deal with blacks

WIA

Funny, I have a white friend who says the same exact thing. It's really hard to discriminate against a man who you can't see. Online is where it is at for black men.

My first post, but yeah, there's nothing respectable about receiving debasing treatment to walk into a club and be subject to further debasement from the clubbers. I agree with WIA, a breh should definitely be trying to build a scene. All inclusive, blacks at the top of the order is the best way to go. Islanders have already got Siberian's twerking, and euro''s doing their dance.

I look down on looking down on hip-hip/ urban fashion. It may be coopted for finance reasons, but it's still black culture, and provides a socially welcoming place for a black man. Whites go everywhere in the western hemisphere because everywhere is white culture...expound on your own culture, furnish the scene, extend its reach,and get pussy.

(08-11-2016 03:22 PM)azulsombra Wrote:  Nothing is more pathetic than guys in their 40s and 50s with nothing mad at other people's success and chastising them for not keeping it "real". I was watching a documentary recently on Jay-z's life where they interviewed his old friends and associates still in the hood hating on him for transitioning from Jerseys to suits back in 2003. He even got dissed for wearing sandals back in 05' from dudes without 1/10 of his wealth but tons more street cred, whatever thats worth.

Yep this is what happens. Now people think you are acting all special and better than them because you don't wear that crap anymore.

Menace I never once mentioned being debased by the clubbers. That happens very rarely.

Actually in these spots its only the doormen that are idiots the clubbers themselves are welcoming.

In my 5.5 years Ive only had two outright instances of racism from clubbers in Germany.

One: I was trying to holla at this girl I was friendly with and she blew me out... this white German dude saw the blowout as it happened and looked at me and said "no black dick". It took everything in my being not to deck him right then and there but Cologne is a small city and I didn't want to risk possibly being banned from one of the top places because of some idiot. Live to fight another day.

Two: I was at what I would say is the snobbiest club in Cologne. Its so tight here that ive heard German men complain about getting blown out. If you aren't good looking, got tight game or are running bottle game... get ready to get destroyed. Of course there arent many brothers in there but I was there one night outside smoking a cigarette and a white girl comes out complaining about a black guy on the dancefloor that wouldn't take no for an answer. She said "this fucking nigg.. wouldn't leave us alone". She didn't realize I was outside and heard what she said until I confronted her about it and she apologized.

Some of you mentioned starting your own spots where its comfortable for black men... The africans here have started their own hip hop or "black clubs" which are supposed to be comfortable for us and guess what?

These clubs have the worst reputations in the city and not out of racism either. So what is a brother to do?

(08-12-2016 03:11 AM)kirdiesel Wrote:  

(08-11-2016 03:22 PM)azulsombra Wrote:  Nothing is more pathetic than guys in their 40s and 50s with nothing mad at other people's success and chastising them for not keeping it "real". I was watching a documentary recently on Jay-z's life where they interviewed his old friends and associates still in the hood hating on him for transitioning from Jerseys to suits back in 2003. He even got dissed for wearing sandals back in 05' from dudes without 1/10 of his wealth but tons more street cred, whatever thats worth.

Yep this is what happens. Now people think you are acting all special and better than them because you don't wear that crap anymore.

Menace I never once mentioned being debased by the clubbers. That happens very rarely.

Actually in these spots its only the doormen that are idiots the clubbers themselves are welcoming.

In my 5.5 years Ive only had two outright instances of racism from clubbers in Germany.

One: I was trying to holla at this girl I was friendly with and she blew me out... this white German dude saw the blowout as it happened and looked at me and said "no black dick". It took everything in my being not to deck him right then and there but Cologne is a small city and I didn't want to risk possibly being banned from one of the top places because of some idiot. Live to fight another day.

Two: I was at what I would say is the snobbiest club in Cologne. Its so tight here that ive heard German men complain about getting blown out. If you aren't good looking, got tight game or are running bottle game... get ready to get destroyed. Of course there arent many brothers in there but I was there one night outside smoking a cigarette and a white girl comes out complaining about a black guy on the dancefloor that wouldn't take no for an answer. She said "this fucking nigg.. wouldn't leave us alone". She didn't realize I was outside and heard what she said until I confronted her about it and she apologized.

Some of you mentioned starting your own spots where its comfortable for black men... The africans here have started their own hip hop or "black clubs" which are supposed to be comfortable for us and guess what?

These clubs have the worst reputations in the city and not out of racism either. So what is a brother to do?

Why do they have a poor rep?

Numerous reasons in no particular order:

1. Theres no selection at the door and no dress code.... which means they get the leftovers of whoever cant get in anywhere else.. which then in turn sets off a chain reaction of other things.

a. The "lower" class of people are here. Also heavily skewed toward african men because along with arab looking guys they are one of the most likely not to get in anywhere else. (Some turkish guys can be found here as well) - Well to sum up.. Its a sausage fest.

b. White german girls are scarce here and when they do come the guys line up and harass them all night until they get fed up and leave the spot. The only ones that are there regularly are those the exclusively date black men and I don't think i need to expand on that any further.

c. Rumors of it being a place for drugs (Ive never seen it myself)

On the positive side the music is the best since I do love hip hop and some of the girls in the city do still go but they go with guys to protect them.

Its really a shame that girls here complain about overly aggressive black guys. I dont know why cats can't just take a blowout and move on with their lives.

Nothing that can't be fixed with some quality management. They're ass, but it doesn't have to bee that way.