Post: #1

I've been away for a while, but could use some advice from the RVF as it's the only source for red pill perspective I have.

I'm 34 and I've been a Christian (reformed) for about 6 years and a red piller for around 3. My fiancee is a Christian also, two years younger.

I've never felt like I wanted kids, and decided as a child myself that I would never have them. I'm not a people person, I prefer solitude to socialising. I also had a rather unpleasant upbringing which contributed to my decision not to have children - I didn't want to repeat the same mistakes my parents made, knowing how it affected me.

My fiancee however loves children and wants 3 of them. She is perfectly compatible with me other than that - a virgin, attractive, very sweet and feminine, sensible etc.

Before I proposed we had a very difficult conversation about this subject in which I agreed that despite my lack of desire for kids we could have two with the possibility of a third if finances allowed (she wants to be a stay at home mother, and I make an average wage).

My reasoning at the time was that I know several people who also never wanted kids and ended up with "accidents" that they now love and adore. Also I've noticed the tension between the Manosphere's love for women with traditional values and endorsement of banging as many women as possible while remaining unmarried and childless. Obviously that's not an option for me any more.

Now the issue has reared its head again as my fiancee says she doesn't want to have them if I don't. She still wants to stay with me, but she's obviously upset about it as she rationalises ways she could cope with not being a mother. Meanwhile I'm thinking that this could be great if I didn't know it would make her miserable and me feel like the world's #1 jerk.

I guess my questions are:

-Is it likely that I could change my mind and experience happiness at having a child once it's born? Has this happened to any of you?

-Am I just being selfish here?

-Is it likely that I will regret not having any children in my old age if I don't now?

Feel free to add anything else you think might be helpful.

Post: #2

(07-10-2016 08:47 PM)Ambicatus Wrote:  like the world's #1 jerk.

Plenty of people in line before you even if you do your worst.
Better to be a jerk than a fool though.

(07-10-2016 08:47 PM)Ambicatus Wrote:  -Is it likely that I could change my mind and experience happiness at having a child once it's born? Has this happened to any of you?

I havent had children (that I know of!) but I did experience a miscarriage after two months,I never understood why my brother was so shocked when he experienced previous miscarriages until that moment,I was positively angry and felt robbed.

On the other side,I've met people who 've had children and went from being failures to near criminals in my eyes for being shitty parents and dressing what will be oxigen usurpers in the future-That is,to my eyes they didnt change after parenthood.

(07-10-2016 08:47 PM)Ambicatus Wrote:  -Am I just being selfish here?

I think concern for self is legitimate,after all its you who pays the bills for your body and mind.

Until a year and half ago I was in pretty much avery similar position to you:
Not the sunniest of childhoods,and amongst the many raging mangina teen onwards to tween things going on in my head was that having kids was a waste of time,a loss of liberty and submission to my asshole parents that I hated so much because so not having them and ending my side of the bloodline would be my grand revenge,blah blah...

Fast forward in my sob story:
I got older and if not wiser smarter by force of getting bitch slapped by reality more than once,suddenly the idea of parenthood began to dawn upon me as attractive,fun...then I realized that the previous adjectives were masking what actually felt was proper and right,duty if you would!

Whether you are on the religious(you stated you were christian) or the cynical/"scientific"/ultradarwinist (many etc) side of the spectrum its your purpose to leave descendance.
In my case at least after having lived so many (mis)adventures and events,it would be a pity to toss away all the stories and potential wisdom or insights away just because I couldnt get over daddy and mommy not being some unicorn collecting SJW sociology major's idea of perfection.
Hell,one thing I HAVE to give to my old man was that we never had a shortage on awesomable stories of sex,adventure and ruin on the high seas!

(07-10-2016 08:47 PM)Ambicatus Wrote:  -Is it likely that I will regret not having any children in my old age if I don't now?

Again,I have no authorithy on the issue but I think this a very likely possibility.It seems we are pretty much hardwired into leaving descendance and/or being removed from the gene pool for any number of practical or spiritual reasons.
I havent met old childless persons (of both genders) that didnt carry a certain implicit melancholy to them
(I've also met an even larger number of tossers WITH descendance that I wouldnt mind if theytook the shortcut to cemetery-ville asap)



Anyhos,as I write this I am in the middle of preparing myself properly to what i hope will be my life as bearded fucking awesomable epic Old Man who will undoubtedly make a shit ton of mistakes in raising his little shit bags,will probably fight a lot with their mum,have to deal most likely with them taking a direction and views in life opposite to mine and somehow find a way to enjoy it all.
(That said until they are legally able to say "no",the fuckers are gonna be skinning my BBQ game meat!)

How I picture fatherhood:

Post: #3

(07-10-2016 08:47 PM)Ambicatus Wrote:  -Is it likely that I could change my mind and experience happiness at having a child once it's born? Has this happened to any of you?

-Am I just being selfish here?

-Is it likely that I will regret not having any children in my old age if I don't now?

Feel free to add anything else you think might be helpful.

- I guess it's ok to be selfish. Parents are also selfish, since they procreate for some selfish reasons, like creating someone to care for them in old age, etc.

- It's better to regret not having them than having them, imho. Freedom is great, and life is a party.

- Having/not having kids is a deal breaker. Don't do it. Have a vasectomy, otherwise there's a chance she can oops you.

You should also understand that child-birth can be very traumatic for a woman, e.g. 3rd, 4th-degree vaginal tearing, and other bodily changes, it can also fuck her up mentally. Basically, she may not be the same person afterwards, and you can end up living with a stranger.

Also, check out the cost of raising a kid in your area, and make sure you can afford it.
In the US, the average cost of raising a child to the age of 18 approximates $245,000.

There is a ton of childfree sites/blogs/youtube channels. Check them out for inspiration.

Put yourself first, don't do something you don't want.

Post: #4

32 YO virgin?

I think if you're going down the fundamental Christian path here, it's incumbent upon you to have kids.

Post: #5

You will probably love your own children. Lots of men go through life being generally irked by, or at best apathetic to, other people's children. Then they have their own and become decent and relatively attentive fathers.

Being a strict Christian and then not having children seems like one of the most bizarre exercises in self-flagellation one could possibly imagine. You deprive yourself of the joys of the flesh until marriage, then (willingly) fundamentally fail to fulfill the one real purpose of lifelong union.

I think if you are serious about this woman, and about having a happy and successful marriage, then you should give her the children she craves. I don't know how many women you know without children, but something very peculiar happens to them as they age. They become, almost invariably, insufferable hags. Very often they adopt vices which are incredibly damaging to themselves and those close to them (frequently they become more or less severe alcoholics).

If you deny a woman children, you are denying her her fundamental purpose. That is, whether they are able to consciously articulate it or not, perhaps the most extraordinary slight you can make against one.

For your own happiness, and the success of your union, I don't think you should marry her unless you are going to (try to) give her children.

Beyond that, pregnant women allow for some uniquely depraved sex. There is something incredibly alluring about a pregnant, feminine woman, with the unblemished rosy skin and the un-ignorable, thrusting fertility that is uniquely exciting. If you are going to try only to fuck one woman for the rest of your days, you owe it to yourself to make that experience itself a kind of fetish. Pregnancy could provide you with some enjoyable avenues in that regard.

Post: #6

Well said H1N1.

Just do it. Knock her up, satisfy her(and yours) primal urges.

Having children is not nearly as bad as people make out. Of course you have to put plenty of effort in, you'll have to make some sacrifices of various kinds. Life is about effort and reward.

You're over-thinking it, start inseminating her.

Post: #7

Your wife seems like she would be a good mother. Just leave the rearing to her and provide occasional manly support. I don't buy into the "spend as much time as possible with your kids" mentality; it depends on your personality.

Post: #8

The desire for children is strongly correlated with evolutionary fitness. I want as many as possible and don't have a problem limiting my life choices in order to have them. They're my legacy!

If you're Christian you'd heed God's word about spreading your seedfar and wide. We need more non 3rd world children.

Post: #9

(07-11-2016 04:32 AM)Filbert Wrote:  - I guess it's ok to be selfish. Parents are also selfish, since they procreate for some selfish reasons, like creating someone to care for them in old age, etc.

- It's better to regret not having them than having them, imho. Freedom is great, and life is a party.

That's basically the male version of the Sex and the City mantra. You're advocating a form of hamsterism that is basically a straight version of a gay male lifestyle, of partying in your middle/old age and being a serial dater and a hedonist. It's a hollow lifestyle with rapidly diminishing returns as you get older. It's also the kind of lifestyle that is pushed by globalist change agents, including feminists.

Ambicatus, it sounds like you are pretty lucky to have a wife like her, and to be in that position while you're still relatively young. One question though: you say you haven't had a good parental upbringing, but how about her? That's a fundamental issue here. If she has had a reasonably healthy family situation, then she will probably be a good mother. And an even better one if she has the trust, guidance and support of a good man...

If that is the case, you should go for it, by all means. You will enjoy being a father, there is no greater purpose in life for a man that has been raised with good values, not just in terms of Christian theology, but in terms of fundamentally sound cultural values.

Quote:You should also understand that child-birth can be very traumatic for a woman, e.g. 3rd, 4th-degree vaginal tearing, and other bodily changes, it can also fuck her up mentally. Basically, she may not be the same person afterwards, and you can end up living with a stranger.

As H1N1 pointed out, the psychological damage for a woman that is willing and able to have children and that is denied that basic function would be far, far greater.


Some quick reading on the subject, from Henry Makow, who has a very solid grip on this subject:

http://henrymakow.com/002013.html

Young heterosexual singles now emulate the dominant homosexual pattern. They go to gatherings, "hook up" with relative strangers and have impersonal sex. They have become "hetero-homos."

They have more "variety" but is that what they really seek? I maintain they want what monogamy offers: security, trust and intimacy. This bond is the only thing that satisfies a craving for love which at bottom is not sexual, but spiritual.

Promiscuity is the self-defeating protest of people who can't form a permanent bond...



http://www.savethemales.ca/000165.html

In Reisman's words, "Playboy was the first national magazine to exploit college men's fears of women and family commitment. Playboy offered itself as a reliable, comforting substitute for monogamous heterosexual love."

Post: #10

I have two kids. Both sons. The first was born when I was 22. I was the same as you. I didnt care for any kids unless they were family.

Worked first job out of college for almost a year, started building a solid savings account, had almost no debt. Was in a very good place and then my first son was born. Since then have went into a decent amount of debt, money is tighter but not bad and in a very good spot financially in about a year. Lost most of my free time as I'm busy with them.

All the money and free time I lost was worth it. What I've gained is wisdom and a sense of purpose. It's an amazing feeling to be able to spend time with your children(especially sons) and pass down wisdom and the values you hold. Plus you will love your kids more than anyone else. It's a feeling that indescribable.

Ultimately the choice is yours but if you decide not to have any children I suggest you mentor a few young boys/men that need some guidance. That can provide some of same benefits as having children to both you and the kids you mentor.

Post: #11

Thanks for the thoughtful insights men.

H1N1 Wrote:You will probably love your own children. Lots of men go through life being generally irked by, or at best apathetic to, other people's children. Then they have their own and become decent and relatively attentive fathers.

Lizard King Wrote:Having children is not nearly as bad as people make out. Of course you have to put plenty of effort in, you'll have to make some sacrifices of various kinds. Life is about effort and reward.

These statements both echo my gut feeling. I suspect that fatherhood is one of those things where if you wait until you feel like you're ready then you'll never end up doing it - the best parents I know all had children by accident. I'm not going to get all evo-psych about it but there definitely seem to be some environmental factors causing stable middle class couples to put off having children, no doubt partially attributable to the efforts of cultural Marxists over the years.

H1N1 Wrote:I don't know how many women you know without children, but something very peculiar happens to them as they age. They become, almost invariably, insufferable hags. Very often they adopt vices which are incredibly damaging to themselves and those close to them

I've definitely noticed this and I've actually said the same thing myself too...

My fiancée certainly would make a fantastic mother, ironically she is so far from being a modern feminist that she's one of those self-sacrificing people who bend over backwards to make others happy. Because she's picked up that I'm not keen on children she has made her mind up not to have them even though she has stated in the past that she can't not be a mother. I'm now in the position of having to talk her into it somehow .

Ironically I did a quick google search asking some of the same questions and most of the answers were to the effect of "Don't have them if you're not ready, break it off with this woman". I guess it just confirms my opinion that red-pill advice is the most sound.

Post: #12

OP you seem like you got a good traditional woman by your side my friend. Since you love solitude, I'm assuming that your Player days, if you had any, are over.

So just be mindful of how you were raised, and try to do your best with what you know. Open your mind to it, and go for it eventually. By your post, your woman cannot not become a mother one day.

Post: #13

I'll add one important point: it's really helpful in this situation to have a support system.

In past times, the extended family used to provide a natural role model and support system. Grandparents, uncles, cousins,... you can get some of that support through good friends, relatives, church or community group members that are on the same life path or further ahead.

Post: #14

Don't have chyldren, if you don't feel like.
You can save ~80% automatically by not marrying or having kids!

And if you're a Christian, listen to Pastor John K. Jenkins Sr. on benefits of being single:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv_9D3bX2Yc

Post: #15

Some excellent insight and advice here.

I know there are a few more members who could chime in, but I understand not everyone wants to discuss fatherhood.

I think the main aspect of it is constant self-improvement.

In many ways I am a low quality father, but at the same time there are ways that I'm a good father. My children know that nothing comes for free in life; they know that the majority will adopt the prevalent ideology. I often get praise about my children, but at the same time I know there are areas I have to work on. Being a man is about being challenged and not getting rolled over by challenges, you might not always 'win' or succeed, but you keep trying. Children are incredibly perceptive, and they will know if you are putting effort in or not.

Another aspect of fatherhood that helps me, is the way that it makes me appreciate what my own parents did, or didn't do. My sibling does not have children, and as a result has a completely different perspective towards our parents. I'm much more forgiving of their shortcomings, because I realise how difficult it can be sometimes; as a result, I feel closer to my parents now than I have done in the past. Their interest in my children motivates me, sometimes my mother annoys the hell out of me nagging me about this or that, but I know she cares.

There is much more to it than I am able to express, I hope all of you become fathers and raise strong, successful children.

Post: #16

Fatherhood is one of the major reasons I'm not all that active here any more. It sounds sappy but if I wondered about the meaning of life before I don't any more. Not saying kids ARE the meaning of life but narcissistic concerns take a distant second priority.

Post: #17

The keys to happy fatherhood are making enough money to be financially stable, and gaming your kids.

Do whatever it takes to live in a place where you can afford a decent home, with reasonable space, decent upkeep and decor, and a safe, middle class or better neighborhood. You might have to live in a place like Zanesville to find this level of affordability. Many big cities require both parents to work to barely squeak by, with tons of debt. Don't do it. Live somewhere that allows you to support your family.

Your career choices follow closely with this. Many less expensive areas have poor job prospects, but there are always people in those areas with money. Play it smart with your career and finances. Live below your means, and build up a nest egg from the start. This is a great stress reducer, and is very important to harmonious family life. Don't let your wife talk you into spending more than you can afford. Provide the decent home in a decent neighborhood, the save the rest.

Second, game your kids. The same techniques that work with women work with kids. There are programs to teach parents how to handle out of control kids, and they basically use game techniques. Kids are cute when they are little, but they can be monsters in their teens, and turn into dysfunctional adults. This can ruin your life. You probably know examples of this.

If you have several kids, there is a good chance of one or more black sheep, while the other kids do well. Game is the best way of avoiding black sheep and raising successful adult children.

If you do these things, you greatly minimize your risk, and optimize your chances of happy family life and successful adult children.

Post: #18

I'll second Filbert's opinion
"- It's better to regret not having them than having them, imho. Freedom is great, and life is a party"

You may also want to see the other side of an opinion from an experienced man here. Ittalks about a GF but you can extrapolate it to kids as well.
HE WOULD NOT have had the great experiences he's had if he had someone pulling him back to "settle"

http://www.quora.com/What-am-I-missing-o...Bazzinotti

Myself, I'm looking at bailing on kids too. My money, My life.

Post: #19

As someone in the late 20s/early 30s age range without kids, this is how I think (all cases assume money flow is good):

1. Kids with the wrong person and wrong environment (culture and legal, etc) = Absolute Hell. Not worth it. Most guys in USA live this life.

2. Kids with right person and wrong environment = Workable but requires a lot of effort. Very much a gray area up for debate.

The few good girls in the USA are candidates but being with them requires major effort to make sure the environment doesn't corrupt her AND children. Have to take significant precautions to protect money flow like limiting self to living in certain states with fair child support laws (no unlimited child support amounts, for example), not getting married at all in the vast majority of cases (no upside unless woman is rich), and using trusts and other legal instruments to protect assets.

3. Kids with right person and right environment = would do and wouldn't think too much about it if I was ready. Don't know if this place exists. Maybe certain Latin American countries?

Bottom line being: I won't have kids for the sake of having them. The circumstances have to be good enough to justify the cost and risk involved. I can live with not having kids if the the proper circumstances never come about because I've seen what happens when people compromise and have kids under bad conditions: it's an awful way to live.

Post: #20

I have a daughter on the way at the age of 23 years old.

The woman in question that is carrying the baby is far from perfect though. Party slut for drug gangsters and daughter of politician. Always make sure to wear plastic.

I can tell you one thing though, all of the problems you think you had, all the freedoms you think you have, they all take a place in the backseat.

At the same time, i feel like i have a new mission n life, it is no longer party time and travel and fuck girls. It is about stacking cash and making sure you take responsibility of this child.

Post: #21

(07-20-2016 09:44 PM)leanmeansexmachine Wrote:  I have a daughter on the way at the age of 23 years old.

The woman in question that is carrying the baby is far from perfect though. Party slut for drug gangsters and daughter of politician. Always make sure to wear plastic.

I can tell you one thing though, all of the problems you think you had, all the freedoms you think you have, they all take a place in the backseat.

At the same time, i feel like i have a new mission n life, it is no longer party time and travel and fuck girls. It is about stacking cash and making sure you take responsibility of this child.

Fucking hell, bro.

I just have one thing to say: paternity test. Don't think, just do it, please, and, if need be, without her knowledge. If you aren't the father, you can always get another one with her knowledge.

Post: #22

Quote: I also had a rather unpleasant upbringing which contributed to my decision not to have children - I didn't want to repeat the same mistakes my parents made, knowing how it affected me.

Would you feel comfortable disclosing what those mistakes were? My childhood was pretty close to a nightmare. I didn't repeat any of my parents' mistakes. I made all my own.

Here is an eBook that might useful if you do decide to have children:

Discipline begins with Dad

Aside from disciplinary issues it has a lot of parenting advice in general. A lot of things go wrong with parent-child relationships when parents don't know how to manage their children. If your children are happy, respectful, and well-behaved, then they are more enjoyable, and their parents have a more functional and more satisfying relationship with them.

Quote:Feel free to add anything else you think might be helpful.

Here is the secret to happiness: make your expectations for what you think you need to be happy as few and as simple as possible.

If you think you need X to be happy, then you won't be happy without it. You might not be happy with it either!! But it will turn into a necessary, not sufficient, precondition for happiness.

This is the cause of so much parenting regret. If you feel that you need a high degree of personal freedom to be happy, then you've just created a self-fulfilling expectation. If you believe that you can be happy without needing a lot of personal freedom, then you can.

I have four children. I do not regret any opportunities that I gave up for them. I not only don't care that I never traveled right after college, as a lot of young people think they need to, I had no desire to. If I'm not happy where I am, doing what I'm doing, then I'm unlikely to be happy somewhere else, doing nothing productive. It's another self-fulfilling expectation.

I don't care that we never had a spotless house, or a fancier one. I didn't need those things to be happy. I don't care that we never went to any uppity parties. I would not have enjoyed them anyway. If they weren't kid-friendly, I didn't feel like I needed to go. I have plenty of other ideas how to use my time and take delight in it.

One more thing:

In western cultures in general, and especially in Christianity (since you mentioned it), egocentric behaviors and attitudes are frowned on.

But the problem is not being egocentric in the literal sense. If you don't take care of yourself, nobody else is going to take care of you. It's OK to put your own needs first. But when children are involved, you need to expand your circle of care to include them. You don't replace your circle of care; you make it bigger. Does that make sense?

When you're on the plane, the stewardess tells you to put your own oxygen mask on first, and then help children, elders, incapacitated, and so on. That's so that you don't pass out before you get your own on, in which case you're no help to anyone. So you get your own mask on, and then help your kids with theirs.

In the case of children, you have a vested interest in their welfare anyway. You probably have some instinct for genetic continuity. And when they're born, your level of a hormone called "vasopressin" (the "daddy hormone") rises. Whether or not you have receptors for it, depends on your own genetics. Men who have vasopressin receptors make better dads and better husbands. Prairie voles have them, mountain voles do not. Humans go either way. I dunno the overall ratio, but in Sweden where they tested some men it was 3/5 have, 2/5 don't have.

Benefits of the Daddy Brain

I hope that whatever decision you make, is satisfying to you and to anyone else that it impacts.

Post: #23

(07-10-2016 08:47 PM)Ambicatus Wrote:  Feel free to add anything else you think might be helpful.

Marriage and kids ? are you fucking crazy ? Dump the bitch double quick and learn to fuck prostitutes for God's sake !