Post: #401

not to veer off topic too much but this is a pretty good movie that deals with the same subject as this thread does
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2234003/?ref_=tt_mv

http://nicktiffany.com/wp-content/upload...dtrack.jpg

Post: #402

(06-07-2016 11:46 AM)Kid Twist Wrote:  

(06-04-2016 01:58 AM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  Interesting though experiment for all you mono-theists out there...

Imagine (I wonder if you can) that you were born in a different time and place. for example, in Sweden in 1200AD, or a pacific island, the New Guinea highlands etc.

There is a 100% chance that you would totally and utterly (with the same faith and fervor you have in your existing god now) worship a completely different god and belief system (Norse, Pagan or pick any of the thousands of gods humans have invented since the dawn of time)

You must come to the devastating realization that your whole faith and belief is based on a random dice throw of the time and place you were born....

This fact makes it very hard for me to understand how a rational, intelligent person could claim to worship the one true god....

You obviously haven't thought this through, nor do you realize how many presumptions you've made there, most of which are false.

I'll just start with this:

There are many people that believe different things than that which "they were [supposed to be] raised". (And by the way, you've met thousands already in your life)

That one statement just negated your whole post.

How many Christians are in Saudi Arabia? How many during Greek/pagan times ?

I have no doubt you understand what I am saying, and somewhere deep down you realise it invalidates your religious belief in a "one true god".

Trying to dismiss it with "I knew a bloke in a village once who rebelled against his religious indoctrination" doesn't really cut it.

Billions just run with the religion their momma/poppa/prevalent culture, time/place of birth hand them, and you know it.

Explain how everyone else is wrong, and you are right?

Post: #403

(06-07-2016 11:21 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

(06-07-2016 11:46 AM)Kid Twist Wrote:  

(06-04-2016 01:58 AM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  Interesting though experiment for all you mono-theists out there...

Imagine (I wonder if you can) that you were born in a different time and place. for example, in Sweden in 1200AD, or a pacific island, the New Guinea highlands etc.

There is a 100% chance that you would totally and utterly (with the same faith and fervor you have in your existing god now) worship a completely different god and belief system (Norse, Pagan or pick any of the thousands of gods humans have invented since the dawn of time)

You must come to the devastating realization that your whole faith and belief is based on a random dice throw of the time and place you were born....

This fact makes it very hard for me to understand how a rational, intelligent person could claim to worship the one true god....

You obviously haven't thought this through, nor do you realize how many presumptions you've made there, most of which are false.

I'll just start with this:

There are many people that believe different things than that which "they were [supposed to be] raised". (And by the way, you've met thousands already in your life)

That one statement just negated your whole post.

How many Christians are in Saudi Arabia? How many during Greek/pagan times ?

I have no doubt you understand what I am saying, and somewhere deep down you realise it invalidates your religious belief in a "one true god".

Trying to dismiss it with "I knew a bloke in a village once who rebelled against his religious indoctrination" doesn't really cut it.

Billions just run with the religion their momma/poppa/prevalent culture, time/place of birth hand them, and you know it.

Explain how everyone else is wrong, and you are right?

To be concise about it, your argument is just a long-winded version of the genetic fallacy.

Deep down, I'm thinking you may have questions about culpability or unfairness if there is one true God but most people are dependent on their ancestors, in some way, to come to this realization.

Why isn't this any different than any other thing, though? We inherit the sins of our fathers in many different ways.

That still has nothing to do with the Truth.

Post: #404

(06-07-2016 05:10 PM)Four_Strong_Winds Wrote:  It is beyond human understanding I think.

I have thought about it before, and thought that, it seems strange to me that if there's a god, and it created humans with a mind that is naturally skeptical of anything that can't be quantified or wholly understood, and then expect humans to accept the existence of something that is neither of those 2, it seems a system set to fail by design.

Also I think, no matter how any person tries to conceive the idea of a godit would be erroneous, because it is impossible to accurately understand such a spirit being through the human prism. Consider the immense power necessary to create stars, planets, solar systems and galaxies. Also to create and control subatomic particles and combine them into various substances and energies, not to mention create sentient living organisms. I don't mind admitting I cannot imagine the nature of such a spirit creature.

It sounds to me that you guys may just be acquainted with fairly simple and/or erroneous religions.

The holiest men from the tradition that I think gets at the truth the best all say what you just said "What can we say about such a being" given our limitations with language and as created beings? They realize this at the beginning ... and also that we will go on forever trying to incorporate god's holiness ... or rebelling from that holiness

Post: #405

I consider myself an agnostic but I'm starting to warm up to what Albert Ellis calls "probabilistic atheism." From The Road to Tolerance:

Quote:...

Let me assume that something beyond empiricism does exist and that your belief in this supernatural "thing" is not empirically justified or "true," but it helps you "spiritually" and awards you better mental and physical health and happiness. Assume that your religious or spiritual convictions are somehow "true"—that God or Jesus or Allah really does exist and your acknowledging his existence distinctly helps you live a "fuller" life.

Now try to assume the opposite: that there is nothing supernatural and no "spirits" in the world but that your believing that there are and worshiping the (false) dictates of a (nonexistent) deity somehow enhances your life—gives you, for example, a goal or purpose to live for.

In both these (conflicting) cases, you may win Pascal's wage—for you benefit either (1) by the existing God or (2) by the nonexisting but firmly dreamed of God. So what have you got to lose? You might as well accept God's existence—or not accept it but still act as if he existed.

This is what the majority of people do. They can't be sure that anything supernatural exists, but they also can't prove that it doesn't—so they choose to allege that because it may exist, it really does. They choose to be deists or theists. More skeptical people, however, choose to believe that supernatural beings most probably don't exist—and since if they did, there would be some empirical evidence proving that they do—but they still retain some safety by acknowledging that they may possibly exist so they can accept their existence and still think it is possibly an illusion. Still more skeptical people think (as I do) that supernatural "things" most probably don't exist, so let's assume that they don't. Finally, dogmatic atheists believe that spiritual "things" absolutely don't exist and even can't exist. Apparently, people are able to choose their degrees of skepticism about spirits and gods.

Why do I choose to be a probabilistic atheist, who is almost certain that supernatural entities don't exist but nonetheless may? For several reasons:

1. Probabilistic atheism most probably is, as far as I can (or any reasonable person) can see, factual or "true."
2. It is a non-safety-seeking, honest position to take. It represents my personal views.
3. It unbigotedly recognizes that gods, devils, and angels could possibly exist because even laws of probability are not sacred. Anything could happen even against the "laws" of probability.
4. Dogmatic, absolutely atheism is unprovable and is a bigotry in itself, so I certainly don't want to subscribe to that.
5. Probabilistic atheism allows me—and others—to stop arguing about unprovable and undisprovable gods and get on with more important life problems. It saves needless discussion and bickering.
6. It accords with the known facts, keeps looking for the unknown ones, but doesn't obsess about them.
7. It enables me (and others) to want but not need perfectionism and certainty.
8. It surrenders the emotionally disturbed, sadistic, and very improbable idea that if there were gods, they would never forgive those of us who refuse to believe in them and roast us in hell forever. It paradoxically avoids making gods into human devils!
9. It gives me (and others) the freedom, the real freedom, to choose our own hypotheses, thoughts, feelings, and behaviors and to widen our possibilities of living.

Post: #406

(06-08-2016 01:22 PM)Huey Wrote:  I consider myself an agnostic but I'm starting to warm up to what Albert Ellis calls "probabilistic atheism." From The Road to Tolerance:

Quote:...

Let me assume that something beyond empiricism does exist and that your belief in this supernatural "thing" is not empirically justified or "true," but it helps you "spiritually" and awards you better mental and physical health and happiness. Assume that your religious or spiritual convictions are somehow "true"—that God or Jesus or Allah really does exist and your acknowledging his existence distinctly helps you live a "fuller" life.

Now try to assume the opposite: that there is nothing supernatural and no "spirits" in the world but that your believing that there are and worshiping the (false) dictates of a (nonexistent) deity somehow enhances your life—gives you, for example, a goal or purpose to live for.

In both these (conflicting) cases, you may win Pascal's wage—for you benefit either (1) by the existing God or (2) by the nonexisting but firmly dreamed of God. So what have you got to lose? You might as well accept God's existence—or not accept it but still act as if he existed.

This is what the majority of people do. They can't be sure that anything supernatural exists, but they also can't prove that it doesn't—so they choose to allege that because it may exist, it really does. They choose to be deists or theists. More skeptical people, however, choose to believe that supernatural beings most probably don't exist—and since if they did, there would be some empirical evidence proving that they do—but they still retain some safety by acknowledging that they may possibly exist so they can accept their existence and still think it is possibly an illusion. Still more skeptical people think (as I do) that supernatural "things" most probably don't exist, so let's assume that they don't. Finally, dogmatic atheists believe that spiritual "things" absolutely don't exist and even can't exist. Apparently, people are able to choose their degrees of skepticism about spirits and gods.

Why do I choose to be a probabilistic atheist, who is almost certain that supernatural entities don't exist but nonetheless may? For several reasons:

1. Probabilistic atheism most probably is, as far as I can (or any reasonable person) can see, factual or "true."
2. It is a non-safety-seeking, honest position to take. It represents my personal views.
3. It unbigotedly recognizes that gods, devils, and angels could possibly exist because even laws of probability are not sacred. Anything could happen even against the "laws" of probability.
4. Dogmatic, absolutely atheism is unprovable and is a bigotry in itself, so I certainly don't want to subscribe to that.
5. Probabilistic atheism allows me—and others—to stop arguing about unprovable and undisprovable gods and get on with more important life problems. It saves needless discussion and bickering.
6. It accords with the known facts, keeps looking for the unknown ones, but doesn't obsess about them.
7. It enables me (and others) to want but not need perfectionism and certainty.
8. It surrenders the emotionally disturbed, sadistic, and very improbable idea that if there were gods, they would never forgive those of us who refuse to believe in them and roast us in hell forever. It paradoxically avoids making gods into human devils!
9. It gives me (and others) the freedom, the real freedom, to choose our own hypotheses, thoughts, feelings, and behaviors and to widen our possibilities of living.

I have never heard of this view, and yet it seems the be an extremely humble and noncondescending form of the belief that there is no God. The only problem with it is that it would make most atheists hate you.

Post: #407

(06-04-2016 01:58 AM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  You must come to the devastating realization that your whole faith and belief is based on a random dice throw of the time and place you were born....

Oh no. Man, you've single handedly destroyed every religion. I think I'm going to a bar tonight to drown my sorrows since my worldview has been crushed and then cry myself to sleep.

Not.

You're right though. Personally I can't imagine because I keep myself grounded in reality. If I wanted to fantasize about living in ancient times I could go to a medieval reenactment or something.

This has to be the most lame argument ever put forth by atheists. It's pure conjecture and is really nothing more than an emotionally charged insult masked as something intellectual. Inferring that people are to stupid to examine all the evidence and come to a conclusion based off their own reasoning. That we're merely products of our time and environment.

Well this argument applies for you also. IF you had been born in such and such a place you might be following such and such faith. And even then what's to say you actually would? Do we know that all men of antiquity wholeheartedly believed their pagan fables? Were some men sitting around the campfires going along with the program but in their hearts thought what their leaders said was bullshit?

Reality check. It's 2016 and you are who you are, and were born where you were born. I am who I am. Whether you think humanity is nothing but stardust or you think we were created by God, we exist in the here and now. This is our time in history. To pontificate "what if you had been born yadda yadda", is irrelevant.

Now more than ever regardless of where you are born we no longer can say we "inherited" our religion. Whether Muslim, Christian, Atheist, Hindu, etc, everyone has access to all the world's religious, scientific, and historical literature literally in their hands. There's no more excuses. Over in Saudi, how do you know what's in their hearts? From Iranian expats turned Christians I've known it's not uncommon for Muslims to pay lip service to Islam but in their hearts believe on Christ. Or nothing. Why in the west do we now see Anglos almost flocking in droves wanting to submit to 7th century Arabia?

I visited a service not long ago where the congregation was dominated by born and bred Indians and Chinese. Man is inherently wired to look to the stars and contemplate why he's here and if there's more. It's a seemingly unfulfillable timeless longing. We're all wired to seek and find God regardless of when or where you were born. Whether you ultimately want to worship Theoretical Physics, yourself, God of the Bible, Allah, it's up to us as individuals regardless of when or where you were born. There's no easy answers, but the easiest thing to do is throw your hands up and say it's all stupid. They could all be wrong, but they can't all be right.

Conventiantly this is a theme of the Bible.

Acts 17, 26-28 "And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

For in him we live, and move, and have our being..."

Post: #408

Atheists always think they are going to rock your world with a thought experiment. Drop a logic bomb and watch the fools melt down.

Post: #409

(06-08-2016 02:01 PM)Spectrumwalker Wrote:  Now more than ever regardless of where you are born we no longer can say we "inherited" our religion. Whether Muslim, Christian, Atheist, Hindu, etc, everyone has access to all the world's religious, scientific, and historical literature literally in their hands. There's no more excuses. Over in Saudi, how do you know what's in their hearts? From Iranian expats turned Christians I've known it's not uncommon for Muslims to pay lip service to Islam but in their hearts believe on Christ. Or nothing. Why in the west do we now see Anglos almost flocking in droves wanting to submit to 7th century Arabia?

This makes no sense. How many Christians and Hindus in Saudi? Very few people leave the religion their born into (other than becoming Atheists) and convert to a different religion. It's probably less than 1 in a 100. You're trying to use this to say that it makes no difference what religious group you're born into to determine what religion you follow.

You take a kid and tell him from a young age that there is no death and that there is an afterlife, which is the real thing and that this life is "not real". You think it;s gonna be easy for that person to reject the afterlife belief and come to terms with death and mortality. Death is a scary thing, if you are raised to belief it;s not real then it's very hard to accept it later on.

Imagine as a kid you#re put on crack. They tell you everyone needs crack to live, that's it's natural, and everyone is taking it around you. How the fuck do you come off crack in your twenties if you were raised like that? You say "Nah man, this is bullshit, this cant be good for me" and try and come off it, only to find withdrawal fucking you up, so you think they must be right.

Believing in a afterlife is like being addicted to crack but thinking it's normal and good for you. That thing will fuck you up but you will still be a slave to it and thankful for each hit.

Monotheists are mentally and emotionally screwed. It is sad and ironic that they fear death more than Atheists. The thing is I reckon all Monotheists will have some doubts about their beliefs, but they are too afraid to face them. When these guys are nearing death I reckon they come face to face with the fears. So many fears, what if it's not true and there is no afterlife, what if it is true and I go to hell. These people live their whole lives paying homage to God and working towards getting into Heaven, then when the time comes they are shit-scared. The sweet irony of it all, the bitch that is Karma.

Imagine for years people tell you humans can fly, and that you can fly. It's such a nice thing to believe, who does'nt want to be able fly. So you start believing in that that and criticize the doubters because "they worship Science". They say "You need wings to Fly". But just because all flying creatures that we have observed have wings, it does'nt mean EVERY flying creature has to have wings. Right? That's just flawed logic. Just "Science Worship" from these people who think they're so clever. And ofcourse it's just so warm and fuzzy to think that one day you will be flying high up in the sky, people dream about that shit.

Well, one day you're gonna be atop that tall skyscraper about to jump off. You're a bit nervous but you know it's uncalled for. Right? Just step off and soar away. But what where the "Unbelievers" saying? Something about not having wings..."Nah man that's bullshit, of course humans can fly, it says so in that book" you tell yourself....

It's all good believing in fairytales, but that time will come when you're staring death in the face, and you wont be able to push the doubt away then, good luck coming to terms with it in what little time you'll have left.

Post: #410

(06-08-2016 03:27 PM)Atheistani Wrote:  It's all good believing in fairytales, but that time will come when you're staring death in the face, and you wont be able to push the doubt away then, good luck coming to terms with it in what little time you'll have left.

It's a pain in the ass from my phone to break down your response. The first parts you need to think through a little more.

You wrote, "people spend years paying homage and working their way towards heaven. " You're absolutely right, and it's a sad fact of life. Fortunately for the world, the God of the Bible, the Creator of the universe, knows man is a weak and fallen creature. In the eyes of God there's no way for man to prove himself except for believing on Christ alone. If you pushed your kid in front of a train to save the life of a friend and then he turned around and spat in your face you wouldn't be to happy would you? He made it so people don't need to work their way to heaven. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2, 8-9. That was the purpose of Christ. To be the propitiation of sins for the whole world. (1 John 2:2). In return all he wants is your belief. A thank you.

I'll be the first to admit my doubts. They creep in from time to time. It's completely normal for all. Do I know beyond a shadow of a doubt if it's true? Of course not. Do I believe it's true. Yes I do. Atheists have doubts also, and if they say they don't, I don't believe them for a split second. Same goes for anyone of any religion who says they don't have doubts. Unless you can find the body of Christ before I die there's nothing you can say that will completely shatter my belief. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.  To dust I will return and that's it. I've well accepted that fact. If Islam is true, I'm damned. But through a Biblical lense that's something I don't even sweat over.

Frankly I'd be more scared on my death bed if I didn't believe in light of what's written in the Bible.

Post: #411

Putting aside "religion"... a "creator" is the only logical conclusion...

Science has not, and is unlikely to answer the question of why we exist... at this stage, saying "God did it" is the only solution...

Post: #412

(06-08-2016 03:27 PM)Atheistani Wrote:  It's all good believing in fairytales, but that time will come when you're staring death in the face, and you wont be able to push the doubt away then, good luck coming to terms with it in what little time you'll have left.

I presume you're aware of the saying "There are no atheists in foxholes?"

It's basically your argument.

God save us from people who mean well. -storm

Post: #413

^^

(Your response is rather lazy forcing me to look up that argument, and everyone else too reading this. Not sure why you cant be bothered to the explain the point in the post. Perhaps you like to think you're really smart cos you know the name of some little argument you read about somewhere. Whatever it is, I find it rather disrespectful and lazy. Anyway...)

It's not the same thing.

Quote:"'There are no atheists in foxholes' isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes," as the mental state, or decisions, of an extremely frightened and desperate person can hardly be imagined to be more rational than those of a person in a calm state.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_...n_foxholes

Believers profess believe in something which they should have doubts about and I guess all 'believers' will doubt their religion. So what happens to that doubt, it's still there right, just bubbling under. The believers try and ignore it and force it away, but it will always follow them around like an unwanted ghost or shadow. Sounds like a crap way to live. But then, it is hard to accept there is no Santa if your parents always told he will get you presents every Christmas.

The point is believers have doubt when they are calm and thoughtful and atheists think of God when they are in high-stress high emotion situations. The most logical explanation is that these Atheists were raised Christians and so under these situations regress to the basic things they first learnt as children, which in many cases in God.

I was raised as a Muslim but am an Atheist now, I can tell you there have been times when I (as an Atheist) recited prayers in Arabic or thought of Allah, these were times when I was mentally or emotional weak. But what blows your foxhole theory up is that I thought of Allah not the Christian God or Jesus, and I prayed in Arabic, not even knowing the meaning of the words. It should be clear to you that this is simply a reflex action where I regressed back to things I learnt as a child, those ideas having been imbedded deep into my psyche (as only things learnt in childhood can).

This is not the same thing as a person, in a non-stress calm situation, choosing to believe or accept ideas about which they have doubts and pushing those doubts away when they come up. This is a struggle from which the believer never finds peace or rest, always having to re-affirm his belief and steadfastness and ashamed to admit doubt to his peers. They are afraid to admit doubt to themselves. This is an on-going struggle one has with oneself, the culmination of which is nothing but a meeting with death filled with fear and apprehension far greater than what the non-believer experiences.

(06-08-2016 06:00 PM)Spectrumwalker Wrote:  I'll be the first to admit my doubts. They creep in from time to time. It's completely normal for all. Do I know beyond a shadow of a doubt if it's true? Of course not. Do I believe it's true. Yes I do.

How can you actually believe something if you have doubt? Can you say you're sure of it if you have doubt?

I mean in real life if I had doubts about something I would'nt say I believed in it. Saying "I have doubts about X" is not consistent with saying "I believe in X". You will never get that in real life. "I believe I can run 100metres in 13seconds but I have doubts sometime" is not something a sane person would ever say. If you have doubts about X you might say "X is likely or X is possible but I have some doubts".

It's pretty sad and likely the lowest point of humanity when people think the biggest determinant of a persons worth, the single biggest factor by which they are 'judged' is whether that person 'professes' believes in something even though the have doubts about it. The key point here is that they PROFESS believe, because in reality they do not actually believe, as they admit to having doubts. This is ok because it is TO THEMSELVES that they profess believe, they tell themselves they believe. It is not important whether they believe, because no sane person can be doubtless on it, and so no sane person can truly believe.

It's not about belief really, it is about telling yourself constantly that you do, and constantly fighting to keep doubt at the back of your mind, in your subconscious. This is a crap way to live.

(06-08-2016 06:00 PM)Spectrumwalker Wrote:  Atheists have doubts also, and if they say they don't, I don't believe them for a split second.

I can say without a doubt I do not believe in Islam or Christianity. More importantly, I can say I do not agree with it, so it is not a game I play. I mean to say I do not recognise the power of any Monotheistic god to judge me as a believer or not. I do not conjecture on whether there is some 'thing' that exists that could be considered 'God'. Why should I? I know where the idea of the Judeo-Christian God came from, I know it's flaws and fallacies and limitations, I do not allow it to set the agenda. I judge the Judeo-Christian religious ideas, they dont judge me.

Post: #414

How can a deity DEMAND you believe in an alternate reality (afterlife) when we cannot even perceive it?

You engineer creatures to be rational to survive, then demand they suddenly believe in physical impossibilities, otherwise they suffer for eternity?

Why else would God have to blatantly come and 'tell Moses' all that shit? Because as a man, Moses had no way of knowing. Or the alleged Fatima apparitions, etc...

I don't recall being in limbo before conception, so why would death be any different?

Post: #415

Is this what the religious consider the highest virtue, to profess belief inspite of doubt, inspite of evidence to the contrary? To live a life of emotional turmoil, disequilibrium and tension, where the only temporary respite comes from shouting louder "I BELIEVE" or "ALLAHU AKBAR".

This is what they're proud of and consider their most high and noble quality. To believe. What insanity! How far modern religions have fallen.

Post: #416

(06-08-2016 09:29 PM)Atheistani Wrote:  ^^

(Your response is rather lazy forcing me to look up that argument, and everyone else too reading this. Not sure why you cant be bothered to the explain the point in the post. Perhaps you like to think you're really smart cos you know the name of some little argument you read about somewhere. Whatever it is, I find it rather disrespectful and lazy. Anyway...)

It's not the same thing.

Your previous post sneered:

Quote:It's all good believing in fairytales, but that time will come when you're staring death in the face, and you wont be able to push the doubt away then, good luck coming to terms with it in what little time you'll have left.

Therefore you are asserting everyone doubts their beliefs when staring into the face of death.

Per your rather long exposition of the atheist-in-a-foxhole argument, it's likely to be the reverse: you will most likely be calling out to Allah for forgiveness as you face death.

Which is why I pointed out that your argument is, in essence, that there are no atheists in foxholes. Just omitting the 'a'.

God save us from people who mean well. -storm

Post: #417

I dont think so. Once I thought I was dying but didnt think of God/Allah. Anyway it seems you didnt get my point at all so I will briefly restate it.

I only thought about Allah that time because that is what was conditioned into my psyche as a child. Similarly for atheists in foxholes. It should be obvious to you that if a person has no word or concept for God (or no experience of practising) then they are incapable of thinking about it (at the point of death). Hence these are atheists in foxholes must be ex-Christians simply regressing in their thoughts (as I have done), if they even exist.

A smoker can quit a knowing its a bad habit, but in moments of stress there is a strong emotional pull. Ofcourse a person who never smoked wont get that. Its the same for your foxholes argument.

Anyway, you must have doubts sometimes like spectrumwalker. How then can you call yourself a believer?

Post: #418

+1 Probabilistic Atheism. Albert Ellis was a God lol.

There's simply no credible evidence for any brand of deity.

More real world and interesting, I actually had a teacher in grad school who met Albert Ellis in NY. He was impressed, it was Christmas Day and Ellis was working in his office; long after he was successful enough to take any days off he wanted.

He said Ellis was still only charging $50 an hour, he was already world famous as the most known popularizer of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy worldwide.

THAT kind of thing is real, and impresses me.

Ideology doesn't make much differnence anyway, Jesus said the three most important things were Faith, Hope and Charity, and the greatest was Charity.

So Ellis was being charitable, who cares about Sky Chariots?

Suicide bombers and Inquisitors are assholes, doesn't matter what Sky God the claim they work for. Nurses and plumbers and anyone who is helpful to others are saints.

Doesn't matter what people believe, matters what they do.

Post: #419

I am assuming those who believe ina a deity believe in the god of the bible. Or do you believe there is something out there you cant fathom? Which god do you put your faith in? Odin, Allah, Jehovah?

Post: #420

(06-09-2016 12:26 AM)Pride male Wrote:  I am assuming those who believe ina a deity believe in the god of the bible. Or do you believe there is something out there you cant fathom? Which god do you put your faith in? Odin, Allah, Jehovah?

What substantive thoughts do you have to add? More one liners and YouTube videos?

Post: #421

(06-08-2016 02:01 PM)Spectrumwalker Wrote:  You're right though. Personally I can't imagine because I keep myself grounded in reality. If I wanted to fantasize about living in ancient times I could go to a medieval reenactment or something.

This has to be the most lame argument ever put forth by atheists. It's pure conjecture and is really nothing more than an emotionally charged insult masked as something intellectual.

Reading that and the rest of your post convinces me you don't really understand the thought experiment.

Let me try again:

If you were born 40,000 years ago in a desert in Australia, you would worship pagan gods. With all the faith, fervor and passion that you currently worship whatever god you do now. Undeniable fact.

You would think you were right, and everyone else was wrong.

Multiply this by all the times, places and gods in the Earth's history (and whatever nameless gods are invented and worshipped by aliens on countless planets in the universe:-)

Even statistically, the odds you have selected (or been brainwashed into) the right god are very very low.

But you must understand how the whole thing looks to an Atheist.

People having faith based on what is essentially a random event in time and place.

Please explain to me in as few a words as possible how your rational mind overcomes this problem. I am really interested. No one has ever given me a good answer to this.

Post: #422

(06-08-2016 06:30 PM)Perfectionist Wrote:  Putting aside "religion"... a "creator" is the only logical conclusion...

Science has not, and is unlikely to answer the question of why we exist... at this stage, saying "God did it" is the only solution...

A supernatural creation solution still leaves you with the problem of who/what created the supernatural deity in the first place.

If it's "turtles all the way down" then it the turtle could be physics and evolution.

ie if your explanation is the the deity has always existed outside of time and space, well than so can matter and energy.

Occam's razor says ditch the deity.

Post: #423

(06-08-2016 02:11 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  Atheists always think they are going to rock your world with a thought experiment. Drop a logic bomb and watch the fools melt down.

We frequently make the mistake, and I am guilty, of trying to cure you of your faith by using logic.

It's fruitless, but I can't help but try ;-)



PS feel free to reply to my thought experiment challenge if you like.

Post: #424

(06-08-2016 10:41 PM)Atheistani Wrote:  Anyway, you must have doubts sometimes like spectrumwalker. How then can you call yourself a believer?

Glad you asked. Let's talk about the meaning of the word believe. I know you have a big problem with defining words properly, so bear with me.

Karen Armstrong's studies tell us that “faith” has its etymological roots in the Greek pistis, “trust; commitment; loyalty; engagement.” Jerome translated pistis into the Latin fides (“loyalty”) and credo (which was from cor do, “I give my heart”). The translators of the first King James Bible translated credo into the English “belief,” which came from the Middle English bileven (“to prize; to value; to hold dear”). Faith in God, therefore, was a trust in and loyal commitment to God. Belief in Christ was an engaged commitment to the call and ministry of Jesus; it was a commitment to do the gospel, to be a follower of Christ. In neither case were “belief” or “faith” a matter of intellectual assent, at least as originally translated. As others have already said -- belief is about action, not intellectual assent.

I don't have any doubts about the existence of God. Such doubts as I have relate to His form, and are ultimately how-many-angels-can-dance-on-the-head-of-a-pin questions, since God itself is a transcendent concept, i.e. that which is omniscient and omnipotent is by definition not going to be completely or perhaps even substantially comprehensible to a human being.

Once you start getting your head around the fact that logic, reason, and the laws of physics cannot apply to a being that by definition surpasses them, and start developing some humility against the infinite variety and complexity of human existence, these issues become much simpler to resolve. Unless of course you have sufficient arrogance to think that after a mere six thousand years or so of human civilisation (itself a blip on humanity's own existence as distinct from the apes, one might add) that humanity has worked out the rules and meaning of existence. In that case, there isn't much help I can offer you other than a nice little spiritual exercise out of Men In Black:

Quote:Fifteen hundred years everyone knew the Earth was the centre of the universe. Five hundred years ago everyone knew the Earth was flat. And fifteen minutes ago you knew that human beings were alone on this planet.

Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.

God save us from people who mean well. -storm

Post: #425

Math and logic is what solidified my belief in God. In fact I remember the exact moment in a math lecture at university.

Funny thing is I hate math. In high school I didn't even qualify to get into university because I bombed so hard in math but good old "Big Uni" was down on numbers that year so took me on.

Proceeded to fail calculus 3 times but did so well at being an actual engineer that the fat controller pretended I was good at math and let me onto the next level...

Where I found Euler's Identity, where all the bullshit mathical nonsense I was put through actually equals zero.



U wot m8?

The number 0, the additive identity.
The number 1, the multiplicative identity.
The number π, which is ubiquitous in the geometry of Euclidean space and analytical mathematics (π = 3.14159265...)
The number e, the base of natural logarithms, which occurs widely in mathematical analysis (e = 2.718281828...).
The number i, the imaginary unit of the complex numbers, a field of numbers that contains the roots of all polynomials (that are not constants), and whose study leads to deeper insights into many areas of algebra and calculus.

You telling me everything I learned just equals zero? What the flying fuck.

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things."