Post: #1

I sent the following comments in reply to a poster who asked me in a PM about what he could do to improve his writing style. I thought they might be of interest to other guys as well, so I reproduce them below.

****************

Here are some things I would suggest:

-- When writing, aim for two things: clarity and flow. Don't worry about style and don't worry about being witty. Concentrate on saying what you want to say in a clear and consecutive manner and on following the logic of the subject as you actually think about it in your mind.

-- Write about things that you know about and that actually interest you. This is key. Most bad writing is bad because people write about subjects that do not really interest them or that they have no feeling about. That kind of writing is dead on the page and no amount of style or wit can salvage it, any more than makeup can make a corpse look beautiful. If you write about what you know and care about -- and especially if you ever write about things you love -- you will find that the words will present themselves, as if by magic. Then all you need is to have the discipline of making what you say clear and consecutive and of letting it flow in the way that it wants to -- which brings me back to the first point above.

-- Don't reach for words. A lot of writers are bad because they reach for words that they don't naturally use, as if those words could, in themselves, add anything to their discourse. Use the words that you already know and have a feel for -- the only exception is when you are writing a technical text and simply have to use the technically correct word.

This may seem like strange advice coming from me since I occasionally use unusual or complex words in my posts -- but I think you'll agree that their use never feels strained or unnatural. I don't reach for them, they just occur to me because they're part of my natural vocabulary. If you want to have a larger vocabulary, you have to read widely, and be interested in many things. But the truth is that it's not the most important thing; words are just tools.

A writer should love his words no more than a pimp loves his whores; they have one purpose and that is to go out on the street and turn tricks and any one that gets the job done is as good as another. A pimp that falls in love with his whores is a bad pimp and a writer that falls in love with his words is a bad writer. Never strain and never overvalue words as such, just use what's near to hand.

-- Pay attention to punctuation and paragraph breaks. Good punctuation helps a sentence flow, and good paragraph breaks help the page flow. When I see a paragraph that is getting too long I figure out a good place to break it off and this often improves the text in surprising ways.

-- If you can reach a state of relaxed concentration, that is the best state to do any writing from. Real tension or anxiety strains writing -- it's part of the reason why a lot of today's literature is so bad. But real sloppiness is not ideal, either. Relaxed concentration is best in writing just as it's best in life.

-- Even if you're not writing a letter to a particular person, sometimes it helps to write your text as if you have some particular reader in mind and you want that person to understand what you're saying -- to really understand it and feel it. It concentrates the mind and makes the writing more pointed and more purposeful.

I hope you find these suggestions to be of some use.

Post: #2

LOZ,

Thanks. I was actually just getting up to do my daily writing. I'll keep this in mind.

Post: #3

Great tips. Thank you, LOZ.

Post: #4

Lizard of Oz writing tips? In!

Post: #5

Reading the book on how to write copy has improved my writing tremendously.



In highschool we had a teacher who taught us to use rhetorical devices and big words with the aid of a thesaurus.

The problem with that is the writing starts to look ridiculous. You end up agonizing over every sentence and everything looks forced.

I still remember the first day of highschool when the teacher described to us the medium of writing. He said, "It is your responsibility as a writer to get your point across to the reader".

Using big words tends to alienate a large portion of potential readers. They only serve to inflate your ego and make you sound smart, but the writing is no longer memorable. Very few people are going to plod through your text.

Post: #6

Yeah, totally agree with the unnecessary use of big words. Fancy words have to be a natural addition to your writing, as opposed to being a forced element just for the sake of sounding intelligent.

The other day I proofread a younger sibling's grade 12 English essay. It reminded me of how ridiculous writing was back then. Every sentence has some forced, ridiculous word to get a point across in the most remarkable way possible. That's the intention, at least. To me now it just comes off as try-hard at best, incoherent at worst.

Post: #7

I came across this classic TLOZ sentence that should be a specimen for further study and vivisection, so I thought I should post it here

(04-14-2015 06:28 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  The idea that you can have some faggot come in and "train" grown men -- soldiers, no less -- on how to behave in the most private and intimate human contexts with members of the opposite sex, and in a nauseatingly jokey stage ham manner that would literally be insulting to a five year old, is an outgrowth of the fundamental Year Zero conceit that the political ideologues and commissars can just come in and tell people the right way to live their lives, a completely new way not known to mankind until now but thoroughly known to them to be the right way.

Post: #8

If you're worried about using big words, read the lines out loud. There are times big words work, like LOZ mentions, but they're natural and roll off the tongue.

If you say your lines out loud and hit some "superfluous" verbiage, it'll stick out like a sore thumb. Remove it, and use more "user-friendly" words.

Post: #9

This is useful: Strunk and White, "The Elements of Style"

It's like the Cliff Notes of the Cliff Notes for an English composition class. Short and to the point.

Post: #10

Don't practice writing too soon, it will solidify bad habits. The best way to improve your writing is to read the best books ever written.

Post: #11

(10-29-2017 08:54 PM)Laska Wrote:  Don't practice writing too soon, it will solidify bad habits. The best way to improve your writing is to read the best books ever written.

Terrible advice.

How do you determine what's "too soon?"

Write, publish, repeat.

If you publish something that sucks, you'll instantly get feedback (likes, replies, comments). You'll learn what sucks, so you can improve your writing in real time.

Post: #12

(10-29-2017 10:19 PM)redbeard Wrote:  

(10-29-2017 08:54 PM)Laska Wrote:  Don't practice writing too soon, it will solidify bad habits. The best way to improve your writing is to read the best books ever written.

Terrible advice.

How do you determine what's "too soon?"

Write, publish, repeat.

If you publish something that sucks, you'll instantly get feedback (likes, replies, comments). You'll learn what sucks, so you can improve your writing in real time.

Modern people don't have a good sense of excellent writing. Too soon is before you have a good sense of language and ideas as far as your reading. This approach means that you'll practice and solidify better writing habits.

Post: #13

I don't agree, Laska. When people do that, they mute their styles and lose their je ne sais quoi that makes them worth reading. I'm sure many of the great writers on this forum hardly read many of the "classics" but their style is authentic and real. I can read a post by some people on this forum without looking at their names and I just know it's them.

What you're saying is a lot like when guys say: "YOU MUST READ STRUNK & WHITE BEFORE YOU START WRITING!"

All those guys have the same bland, whitewashed style.

I have a copy of Strunk & White that I use for editing work, but I otherwise throw all that shit out the window and have fun. You're not gonna pen great things if you're worried about grammar and stylistic conventions as you write.

Hulbert Selby Jr.'s style of writing in "Last Exit to Brooklyn" straight-up lacks grammar, but it hits so damn hard because he's not worried about arbitrary rules set up by Strunk & White or flailing to become the next Tolstoy. He sat and he wrote authentically.

He says that when he started writing he just wrote letters to his friends because he had no clue what he was doing, but he eventually developed a style despite being crippled and bedridden for nearly one decade.

A lot of what makes the great's so great is that they don't give a damn about the rules. If anything, they cast off the rules if the rules get in the way of them writing powerful, compelling works of art.

Post: #14

(10-29-2017 11:35 PM)Fortis Wrote:  What you're saying is a lot like when guys say: "YOU MUST READ STRUNK & WHITE BEFORE YOU START WRITING!"

Haha, it's kinda like, "YOU MUST READ BANG, DAY BANG, THE GAME, MYSTERY METHOD, and MODELS BEFORE YOU START TALKING TO GIRLS!"

Same thing Laska's saying.

We're not arguing that reading is dumb, far from it. Learning and application are two separate but necessary tasks.

Post: #15

(10-29-2017 11:43 PM)redbeard Wrote:  

(10-29-2017 11:35 PM)Fortis Wrote:  What you're saying is a lot like when guys say: "YOU MUST READ STRUNK & WHITE BEFORE YOU START WRITING!"

Haha, it's kinda like, "YOU MUST READ BANG, DAY BANG, THE GAME, MYSTERY METHOD, and MODELS BEFORE YOU START TALKING TO GIRLS!"

Same thing Laska's saying.

We're not arguing that reading is dumb, far from it. Learning and application are two separate but necessary tasks.

When you learn how to shoot, they make sure you learn good habits from the start because bad habits get too ingrained. It's not so much the case with being sociable.

Post: #16

(10-29-2017 11:35 PM)Fortis Wrote:  I don't agree, Laska. When people do that, they mute their styles and lose their je ne sais quoi that makes them worth reading. I'm sure many of the great writers on this forum hardly read many of the "classics" but their style is authentic and real. I can read a post by some people on this forum without looking at their names and I just know it's them.

What you're saying is a lot like when guys say: "YOU MUST READ STRUNK & WHITE BEFORE YOU START WRITING!"

All those guys have the same bland, whitewashed style.

I have a copy of Strunk & White that I use for editing work, but I otherwise throw all that shit out the window and have fun. You're not gonna pen great things if you're worried about grammar and stylistic conventions as you write.

Hulbert Selby Jr.'s style of writing in "Last Exit to Brooklyn" straight-up lacks grammar, but it hits so damn hard because he's not worried about arbitrary rules set up by Strunk & White or flailing to become the next Tolstoy. He sat and he wrote authentically.

He says that when he started writing he just wrote letters to his friends because he had no clue what he was doing, but he eventually developed a style despite being crippled and bedridden for nearly one decade.

A lot of what makes the great's so great is that they don't give a damn about the rules. If anything, they cast off the rules if the rules get in the way of them writing powerful, compelling works of art.

Tolstoy barely wrote anything till he was an adult. Shakespeare was in a grammar school, so he probably didn't write much from his own mind until he was in his mid to late teens. In current times, we're told unceasingly to practise writing, and look how modern writers compare to the styles of Blackstone, Pope, or Melville. Why the last poet (I'm not including the oxymoronic "prose poets") in recorded history was Robert Frost, and he could barely write any poetry.

Post: #17

I'm still with Red on this one.

I'd say shooting isn't a fair comparison for the most part. If you aren't hitting the target within acceptable parameters, you got work to do. With writing, you don't know if you're worth a damn until someone starts buying your books, subscribing to your website or reaching out to you to do speaking engagements.

At least with shooting practice, you can hit the target with your practice gun before competition day and get a fair idea of how well you'll do come competition day.

The target, when it comes to writing, is selling, but you can't really know if your writing will sell without testing it in the brutal marketplace.

Unless you're sitting down with Stephen King or Stephen King's editor and he's tutoring you, how do you even know if you've developed good habits?

Post: #18

I'm going to make this the first back and forth on the forum that I bow out of. You two can claim victory.
Edit: thanks for the respectful debate gentlemen, you're both good debaters. By the way, I think I come across as a pretentious prick on here sometimes, is that true? Thanks for the feedback. -Laska.

Post: #19

(10-30-2017 12:57 AM)Laska Wrote:  I'm going to make this the first back and forth on the forum that I bow out of. You two can claim victory.
Edit: thanks for the respectful debate gentlemen, you're both good debaters. By the way, I think I come across as a pretentious prick on here sometimes, is that true? Thanks for the feedback. -Laska.

Hey, Laska, it's all good. We were just having a discussion. You didn't come across as impolite at all. Please stick around.

Post: #20

OK, sometimes I just wonder if I seem like that in text form. I'm bowing out to do some school work I procrastinated on. Thanks guys.

Post: #21

While I agree it is important to write directly and too the point, and to try to avoid any attempts at artificially flowery language, I think it can also be a problem to write too dryly.

I have this problem. I try to be a little more off the wall in some things I write on the forum, but I know that a lot of my writing is like the way Jack Webb would talk in Dragnet. Just the facts.

I've seen some writing that uses colorful, flowery language to describe the setting in which the story appears, or to try to describe the emotional reaction of the writer, or even to get esoteric, and try to use poetic imagery to describe things like the rapture of love, or a spiritual epiphany. This is hard to pull off well, and I often find myself skimming past these passages.

I think the thing that works best is develop a bit of a folksy, down to earth approach, stopping to use simple analogies, or to use examples like's LOZ's excellent example with the pimp and the whores. I can see the need to do it, and I try to do it, but I don't think I do it very well. LOZ actually takes it to the next level, and is able to describe feelings, and moods, and other abstract things, in a way that makes them come to life. Furthermore, he can even play with the language, with playful word choices and phrasing, so you enjoy his word choice and writing as much as his ideas. I have a long way to go to be able to do these things.

Post: #22

Try Farnsworth's "Classical English Rhetoric" and "Classical English Metaphors" for ideas.

Even if your writing is dry and "just the facts", there are simple methods for making it beautiful and interesting. Trust me here - I slip this stuff into STEM-field proposal writing.

As for Strunk and White, dismissing their advice as arbitrary rules that get in the way of an authentic voice is nonsense. To further abuse the shooting metaphor, they're reminding you to mind your sight picture and sneak up on the trigger and such to better achieve "one shot, one kill", while rule-less "authenticity" is the gangsta rapper dramatically spraying a full mag from his nine-mil into a crowded room and not hitting anything.

"Experimental grammar" and "authentic voice" and related gimmicks produce writing which is utter shit. It's lazy work by incompetent semi-literates who would rather valorize their mediocrity than do the hard work of learning to write well (and perhaps discover that they can't). It's the written-word counterpart of "modern art": the emperor's new clothes but in pen and ink.

Post: #23

Alright, my schedule just got much lighter today, so I can continue.

Reading great books can improve writing in two ways:
1. Giving you things to write about, and can often do so in a way that frees up brain power (wondering what you want to say) so you can focus on how you're writing.
2. More importantly, it can give a better sense of language, and absorbing beautiful language can prime your mind for naturally writing with better style.
On the first point, you could substitute books for articles, lectures, or anything that gives you interesting things to say. On the second point, books could be substituted for speeches, poetry, opera, or plays. In fact, I sometimes listen to a Gilbert and Sullivan opera before sitting down to write. I find eloquence can rub off to some extent, at least in the short term.

Since Fortis brought up the classics, I'll address the role they can play. Something like Aristotle wouldn't help anyone improve someone's style, but if you spend some time deeply reading Milton or Aeschylus, it probably will. Aristotle will give certain interesting philosophic thoughts, so he can only help if it's relevant to what the person's trying to write.

The idea here is to spend some time focusing on style, and clear your mind of any rules. Needless to say, this approach is only good for improving writing style.

Post: #24

(10-30-2017 12:15 AM)Fortis Wrote:  I'm still with Red on this one.

I'd say shooting isn't a fair comparison for the most part. If you aren't hitting the target within acceptable parameters, you got work to do. With writing, you don't know if you're worth a damn until someone starts buying your books, subscribing to your website or reaching out to you to do speaking engagements.

At least with shooting practice, you can hit the target with your practice gun before competition day and get a fair idea of how well you'll do come competition day.

The target, when it comes to writing, is selling, but you can't really know if your writing will sell without testing it in the brutal marketplace.

Unless you're sitting down with Stephen King or Stephen King's editor and he's tutoring you, how do you even know if you've developed good habits?

With shooting, you're confusing results with the how to improve.

Who's sold more books, Euripides, or the author of Fifty Shades of Grey? And who's the better author? Selling is one possible target, but there are many legitimate goals with writing.

You know you're developing good habits when your brain hurts from reading deeply. Becoming a better reader is, to my mind, the best way to improve your understanding of language, and a better understanding of language enhances style. For a long term understanding of language, I'd recommend spending at least 3-months reading the deepest and best written books, especially Shakespeare. Edit: read VERY slowly for the most part, and really absorb it.

Post: #25

(11-03-2017 05:08 PM)Laska Wrote:  

(10-30-2017 12:15 AM)Fortis Wrote:  I'm still with Red on this one.

I'd say shooting isn't a fair comparison for the most part. If you aren't hitting the target within acceptable parameters, you got work to do. With writing, you don't know if you're worth a damn until someone starts buying your books, subscribing to your website or reaching out to you to do speaking engagements.

At least with shooting practice, you can hit the target with your practice gun before competition day and get a fair idea of how well you'll do come competition day.

The target, when it comes to writing, is selling, but you can't really know if your writing will sell without testing it in the brutal marketplace.

Unless you're sitting down with Stephen King or Stephen King's editor and he's tutoring you, how do you even know if you've developed good habits?

With shooting, you're confusing results with the how to improve.

Who's sold more books, Euripides, or the author of Fifty Shades of Grey? And who's the better author? Selling is one possible target, but there are many legitimate goals with writing.

You know you're developing good habits when your brain hurts from reading deeply. Becoming a better reader is, to my mind, the best way to improve your understanding of language, and a better understanding of language enhances style. For a long term understanding of language, I'd recommend spending at least 3-months reading the deepest and best written books, especially Shakespeare. Edit: read VERY slowly for the most part, and really absorb it.

Tell me....WHY do you write?

I write to convince. More accurately, I write to push people to action, most often, a sale.

One of my mentors told me to write everyday. He said,

"Don't just write a diary entry about how Sally from 3rd period let you touch her boob. Write with the intention to change someone's mind about something. Get them to buy whatever you're selling."

What does Shakespeare convince you to do?

Here's a sample.

"Think upon patience. Pray you, gentlemen,
I have felt so many quirks of joy and grief,
That the first face of neither, on the start,
Can woman me unto't: where is my son, I pray you?"

The fuck?

If you want to write a novel, go ahead, read Shakespeare.

If you want to tell great stories (and make money along the way), learn copywriting.

John Carlton said that you need to make your sales letter the MOST INTERESTING thing your reader reads all day. Can't say the same for Shakespeare's work.