Post: #526

Quote:If NTP truly was a troll, he sure as hell is accomplishing his mission.

My opinion: We should try not to form a circular firing squad over this.

As long as one's sense of self-worth or identity is not too bound up in the forum stuff, we can all laugh this off.

I liked TLOZ's analysis, personally. The writing style is why I wondered if NTP was a bot/program.

Post: #527

Oh boy, what a thread. It's like a Gman thread times 100. I do miss his posts, they were entertaining!

Anyway, I can understand the need to ban someone for plagiarism. I think it's fair.

I still think too many people are putting more value on rep points then they should. I don't know if they are trying to "save" new people or deriving self worth through points or maybe a little bit of both...

This drama could be a lesson in critical thinking for those that bought the tales of an Olympic swimmer, sailor, real estate mogul, etc...

This whole meet in person thing is funny. I don't know about most here, but I don't post here for rep points. I post because I enjoy the rhetoric and if I can help someone achieve a goal I am happy to be able to do so.

If you need to know a list of people I met in order to consume my posts and decide whether they are credible or not, you have to work on your critical thinking.

Post: #528

(05-19-2016 11:34 AM)weambulance Wrote:  So, hydrogonian, to recap what you had to say to me:

A. Everything is subjective, there is no objective reality, my knowledge means nothing and all I am even capable of having is opinions that hold no more weight than anyone else's.

B. I have the emotional maturity of a toddler, and the capacity for logic of a garden snail, because I am so scarred from something that happened 10-12 years ago that I not only could not distinguish between NTP and the stolen valor guy, but I just had to attack NTP for it.

C. Plagiarism is not wrong, and pretending you wrote something you didn't in an attempt to bolster your authority is not actually fraud/lying. We should've waited to see if the shit sandwich he served us tasted good before deciding whether or not all shit sandwiches are bad and should be thrown in the trash.

D. Blah blah moral relativism something or other.

E. The fact that I did not follow NTP's posts, and thus came into this brouhaha with no opinion on him, actually means my objectivity is questionable.

F. This was some kind of lynch mob, where we voted the guy off the island in the heat of the moment. There is some secret mechanism in the forum that sensed a lot of us were questioning his validity, and so the forum automatically banned him. It had nothing to do with Roosh's decision at all.

Did I forget anything?

Sure, you forgot to add my quotes that you attempted to paraphrase and interject your own words into. Thus, making your post not so followable.

Do it or don't do it. It isn't a concern.

Quote:Thing is, we disagree from first principles on many things here.

I believe that people with significant knowledge about a subject can assess the validity of someone's claims about that subject.

I would agree on closed and simple subjects like sports. Was he that terrible in regard to gunfighting? I would disagree on larger, more complex subjects like China.

Quote:I believe that there is such a thing as objective morality, and that lying is generally wrong. There are exceptions. This case was not one of them

Well, I agree on objective morality as well. But I also disagree that plagiarizing technical information is necessarily a breach of morality to the degree that it is worthy of a ban. I think that the moral issue is more nuanced, at least theoretically in this case. The theory of which would be verified or not in a more tempered evaluation.

I also disagree that this forum, which there are all types of threads that deal with "objectively amoral behavior" runs on a strict sense of objective morality. An idiosyncratic morality, probably. But not objective morality.

Quote:I believe that if someone lies their ass off--in this case through blatant plagiarism--it is foolish to ignore that and assume the other stuff they wrote is just fine.

We see different levels of nuance here. Not of differing depths per se, but perhaps plumbing different aspects of the issue. I'm not trying to let him off of the hook because I have an agenda to do so. I don't. I don't have much to gain from him being here, moving forward. I'm concerned about the process that I saw.

Quote:I believe that the closer you are to the fight, the harder it is to see the big picture.

That's too convenient in terms if dismissing a view that you disagree with.

Argue my points, but, respectfully, please don't argue my ability to see things to depth as an argument in itself.

Quote:As to your challenge, I have two things to say:

1. I have made many posts about firearms, and a number of posts about combat, on this forum. Feel free to browse my posts and compare them to your pal NTP's work. I await your questioning my authenticity with bated breath.

I will. Though, I'm not out to get you and am not going to accuse anyone of anything. The point was rhetorical. Ie: your views of your material is likely subjective, as is his of yours and yours of his. Anyone can claim anything of anyone else. Lack of knowledge, incomplete knowledge, or complimentary knowledge is not a crime.

Using these views as evidence in support of banning is a bad precedent for the forum. That's the point. It's not personal to NTP. Are you now the arbiter of gun fighting knowledge? Sign up on the board. How are we going to know when your better comes along and deems your knowledge too illegitimate? By what he says about you? It sounds like a rough appointment.

This ugly pattern, of internet strangers commenting on and judging toward banning evidence the legitimacy of knowledge in relation to their own, has been continued throughout this process.

No one knows anyone. Anyone can say anything. Meetups don't solve the problem when they are realistic whatsoever. That's the point. The precedent and the tone of the persecution in regard to his legitimacy of claims was the point.

That's my opinion. I don't expect to change yours. We can agree to disagree.

Quote:2. I have been working intermittently a large collection of data sheets for the forum about firearms and the practical use thereof since philosophical_recovery's great post on pistol training. If you don't want to mine my posts, you can just wait for me to start putting those articles up.

Cool. I'm into it, sincerely and with no agenda, and look forward to learning from them. Thanks.

I'll bow out of this thread now, assuming that other members want to be respectful and let that happen. Pm me if you want to talk more. I've said my piece on this thread.

Post: #529

(05-19-2016 12:19 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  Anyway, I can understand the need to ban someone for plagiarism. I think it's fair.

I agree, but you kind of contradict yourself below.

(05-19-2016 12:19 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  If you need to know a list of people I met in order to consume my posts and decide whether they are credible or not, you have to work on your critical thinking.

By this reasoning NTP's posts were just as valid, since by your logic the validity of the source is inconsequential. One could say they got value out of his posts, so it doesn't matter that he's a phony?

Post: #530

(05-19-2016 12:17 PM)pitt Wrote:  However, I have a problem with guys who are ''game experts'' on here, dedicate most of their posts on the game forum and are quick to call out newbies for their weak game and have not met any forum members.

You can't be acting like a top player in a forum full of players and not expect other members wanting to see you in action.

Post: #531

Even if he wasn't before, NTP is certainly dragging the forum down now. Let him remain lost at sea.

Post: #532

Hold up. Y'all can't ask the thread to be closed without me going off on other forum members too.

I need my turn as well

Post: #533

delete

Post: #534

Disclaimer: I'm aware that I'm a 'low rep member'- I did most of my posting a couple of years ago when point where harder to come by, and have met a member- I spent a couple of days with Deluge in London last year.

This thread should be closed.

Members are getting sidetracked into petty arguments over details and calling each other out. This is pointless and to quote Little dark; "isn't the issue". Whether he was mentally ill, a government funded troll or anything else, we can all agree- NTP did not live the lifestyle that he claimed he did, and as well as damaging the overall integrity of the forum, was driving high-value posters away (as Gringuito attested to). There's nothing more to be said, or to argue about.

Post: #535

(05-19-2016 12:34 PM)Red_Pillage Wrote:  

(05-19-2016 12:19 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  Anyway, I can understand the need to ban someone for plagiarism. I think it's fair.

I agree, but you kind of contradict yourself below.

(05-19-2016 12:19 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  If you need to know a list of people I met in order to consume my posts and decide whether they are credible or not, you have to work on your critical thinking.

By this reasoning NTP's posts were just as valid, since by your logic the validity of the source is inconsequential. One could say they got value out of his posts, so it doesn't matter that he's a phony?

No, I don't think I contradicted myself. Are you saying plagiarism is ok as long as the information is good?

If you do, I don't equate the two.

A phony would be copying and pasting information from a source and taking credit for it. Is that not the case in your world?

When it comes to good information...

When I learn a new subject, i will devour everything about it. After some time you end up seeing similarities and almost everything is regurgitated. At that point, I am happy if I can learn one thing from a informational source.

I wouldn't have a problem with NTP posting his info and links to the article he got it from. In fact, I would be thankful if I did learn something from it.

But it isn't about the information itself, is it? It's about taking ownership from someone else who put in the work.

Post: #536

(05-19-2016 12:34 PM)Red_Pillage Wrote:  

(05-19-2016 12:19 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  If you need to know a list of people I met in order to consume my posts and decide whether they are credible or not, you have to work on your critical thinking.

By this reasoning NTP's posts were just as valid, since by your logic the validity of the source is inconsequential. One could say they got value out of his posts, so it doesn't matter that he's a phony?

I think you're misreading what he said. He's saying that meeting others shouldn't be what constitutes adding genuine value. NTP didn't need to meet people to be considered offering information of value, he just needed to not steal the writing of others.

A guy not meeting people doesn't make him a phony. It's the passing off of other peoples writings as ones own, and possibly fabricating stories.

Post: #537

(05-19-2016 12:43 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

(05-19-2016 12:34 PM)Red_Pillage Wrote:  

(05-19-2016 12:19 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  Anyway, I can understand the need to ban someone for plagiarism. I think it's fair.

I agree, but you kind of contradict yourself below.

(05-19-2016 12:19 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  If you need to know a list of people I met in order to consume my posts and decide whether they are credible or not, you have to work on your critical thinking.

By this reasoning NTP's posts were just as valid, since by your logic the validity of the source is inconsequential. One could say they got value out of his posts, so it doesn't matter that he's a phony?

No, I don't think I contradicted myself. Are you saying plagiarism is ok as long as the information is good?

If you do, I don't equate the two.

A phony would be copying and pasting information from a source and taking credit for it. Is that not the case in your world?

When it comes to good information...

When I learn a new subject, i will devour everything about it. After some time you end up seeing similarities and almost everything is regurgitated. At that point, I am happy if I can learn one thing from a informational source.

I wouldn't have a problem with NTP posting his info and links to the article he got it from. In fact, I would be thankful if I did learn something from it.

But it isn't about the information itself, is it? It's about taking ownership from someone else who put in the work.

No I am not saying plagiarism is ok as long as the information is good. Quite the opposite.

@Globalman. You're right, I misinterpreted WWW's message. No disagreement here.

Post: #538

Another thing,

If you got nothing to add to this thread interms of arguments then don't post. GIF's and funny pics have their place and time. Worst of all are you John Kasich like faggots posting ... "Can't we all just get along? This is is what the SJW's want".

Make a case for or against the banning or related topics like the rep point system and meeting members. Stop spamming GIF bullshit.

Post: #539

deleted

Post: #540

(05-19-2016 12:49 PM)Anabasis to Desta Wrote:  Another thing,

If you got nothing to add to this thread interms of arguments then don't post. GIF's and funny pics have their place and time. Worst of all are you John Kasich like faggots posting ... "Can't we all just get along? This is is what the SJW's want".

Make a case for or against the banning or related topics like the rep point system and meeting members. Stop spamming GIF bullshit.

Post: #541

^ You were in such a haste to post that meme and accrue likes that you couldn't even get my initials right.

Post: #542

I think I found him

Post: #543

Anabasis, brother, I agree that things have gotten silly. But can it also be that you're taking this a little more personally because you want to believe in the guy?

I get that he PM'd you some good information, and I'm glad you got some value out of him, and I'm sure others did as well. But their is also a tinge of "wanting to believe", rather than a neutral assessment. AB summed up perfectly some of the psychology at play regarding the reaction of some guys to this whole thing.

A guy can give useful information yet still be a dishonest person unfit for a community. Pointing out that what he was doing was wrong and dishonest is not a dismissal of the useful information you received.

Objectively, he ignored a warning and continued a dishonest behavior. He's not a victim of misunderstanding or a mob, or a quick and dirty trial. He knew what he was doing, he knew it was not acceptable, yet continued. Lets forget for a moment the specific reason- ignoring a warning to stop doing something is reason enough for a ban.

I feel it's a little presumptuous of you to try and steer what is ok to post here. Even if he wasn't dishonest, NTP isn't some kind of deity that shall not be roasted with GIFs. Again, it seems you're feeling this way because of a personal investment. That's natural and perfectly ok. But what isn't is trying to dictate what level of respect needs to be shown, especially considering the guy has clearly lied.

Post: #544

EJECT! EJECT! EJECT!

Post: #545

The person behind NTP right about now.

Post: #546

(05-19-2016 05:41 AM)Cobra Wrote:  I again caution members in providing rep points to those no one has met no matter what their standing rep count.

I also ask high post members who no one has met to come out of the woodworks and meet some people. You can give me flak for this but, if members have time to put together amazing posts, they have time to meet members. At a certain point it sort of becomes as close to an obligation as you can get. The potential damage that could be done by ignoring this is too high for us.

I disagree with this.

In the many years I've been on this forum, I've met 3.5 people. One was a guy who signed up to strictly meet me for a job, and never posted. The other was a college kid who was frankly an entitled douchebag. The third was just an empty shirt I met in LA who was just unimpressive.

The 1/2 was JJ Roberts back when he was Lumiere, and I couldn't bring myself to do the intro when I saw (and smelled) what a shit pile he was.

If you gotta meet people for some type of forum "vetting" reason, that would mean one person, or a small panel of people, would have to do the vetting.

If you didn't meet those specific people it would have to be assumed that all of your posts were fake.

That being said, several years ago I had a big party on fathers day at my house. I posted on the forum about it. Not a single one of you showed up. I wasn't offended

Does this mean that every single thing I read on here is false unless it was written by the two guys I met or JJ Roberts aka Lumiere???

Aloha!

Post: #547

I agree that things are getting a little heated and maybe people are taking things a bit too personally.

I would also say that while gifs and pictures can be funny and help lighten the mood, the mass posting of them right after Anabasis asked not to seems like an intentional act to rile him up. Come on guys, that's petty, childish behavior.

Again, are we mature enough to keep this thread on topic and discuss the proof and seriousness of NTP's plagiarism and the circumstances behind it? Can we do this without attacking each other or necessitating a locked thread? It's not looking good so far.

If not, that is a sad day for this community.

Post: #548

(05-19-2016 01:21 PM)Kona Wrote:  That being said, several years ago I had a big party on fathers day at my house. I posted on the forum about it. Not a single one of you showed up. I wasn't offended

Damn...I wish I'd been on the forum when that invite was put out.