Post: #26

I don't really believe in Left and Right as labels. I subscribe more to an economic understanding of the world framed in a globalist vs nationalist dichotomy. Probably an extension of the ideas of Marx, Francis Fukuyama and Adam Smith.

I think Zero Hedge is right to identify just how powerful the elites are relative to the unwashed masses and I see all political history primarily from the perspective of societal elites and powerful, irresistible economic forces.

Post: #27

I guess when I was younger I cared more about identities, justice, race, the environment, all the things that don't really matter in the grand scheme of things

Post: #28

I barely recognise the man I was ten years ago. My ideas on culture, nationalism, feminism, equality and so many other issues have completely changed. The man I am now would have hated the man I have become.

Some of my ideas have gradually evolved over time, and I expect them to continue evolving. Some have changed instantly as a result of my experiences, where things I was supposed to believe and was taught to believe simply didn't make any sense.

Here's one example. I believed that abortion was a basic right. I believed that women should have control of their reproductive capacity. And for a young man with little world experience, this wouldn't be an unreasonably position to take. So when I got a girl pregnant in my early 20s, it didn't seem like a big deal. We stalled for a while, but eventually came to the mutual decision to visit a clinic. It was an extremely easy process - the procedure was done the morning after our initial consultation and it wasn't expensive. I was the only man accompanying his girl in the waiting room, but I was astounded how many young women there were. It was like a factory. After the procedure, all I could feel was a huge sense of relief, as I didn't think I was in any position to be a father.

And then overnight, her whole personality changed. She went from being a pleasant, joyful girl to being a moody bitch. I remember waking up in the middle of the night on multiple occasions to the sound of her uncontrollable sobbing. The relationship didn't last much longer, and we didn't really discuss her abortion. But she had become a broken person, and the only change in her life was that she had literally had life sucked from her body.

It's very well to discuss the virtues of abortion when it's not something you have experienced first hand. For the women who have aborted their child and say they are fine with it, I believe they are either lying or are a small minority. After seeing first hand how this simple medical procedure caused the emotional destruction of an otherwise good woman, it's hard not to recognise this as a bad thing. I believe that a majority of women who go through with an abortion will never be the same again. I often wonder what my life would be like if we kept the baby, and I did the respectable thing of marrying her.

I can pinpoint this experience as the first jolt which led me down the path to becoming the man I am today.

Post: #29

I identified with the Canadian Alliance Reform Party back when I was old enough to start understanding what was going on. There was a general distrust of the liberals in the west growing up that kinda soaked into my bones. That said, I had many leftish beliefs now that are positively mild. I used to believe in abortion as a right for women, that went out the window after my college GF had an abortion as a way to dump me. That said - I don't think making illegal abortion is the solution either, as back in the day when that was the case, girls were just getting butchered by back ally quacks.

I used to naively think feminism was about genuine equality with men and women, and not being a dick to a woman just because of her gender, that kind of... simple thinking. Now I know better.

Post: #30

I used to admire the writings of Che Guevara. Seriously, I thought the motorcycle diaries was pretty sweet. And I still kinda do, it's a good book. But yeah fuck that guy, he was a murderer and a racist homophobe. Does not deserve to be deified.

I've always been against political correctness, mainly because of my cunty elementary school teachers punishing me for having a dick.

Post: #31

The left vs. right dichotomy is rather vague and useless frankly.

I loathe, LOATHE, social conservatives who'd force their superstitious puritanism on the rest of us. They're every bit as bad as the SJWs.

As far as economic policy, I'm libertarian/anarchist. I hold firmly to the belief that the free market can provide any service better than the government. Nobody has ever been able to show me an example to the contrary.

The recent trend is nationalism ala Trump or Bernie, each with their own twist on it. I like Trump if anything for his lack of PCness, but he is a bit of an egomaniac. It wouldn't be a stretch to imagine the federal government becoming even more monstrous under his reign.

Post: #32

I have always thought for myself, unlike a large number of people on my generation. I'm young enough to have been treated badly in the education system just for having a penis, so I've always been anti- PC.

My views are actaully quote varied, and whilst I want Trump to win the presidency, I wouldn't really say all of my ideas are in line with his.

Also, it needs to be pointed out (I think some guys may have already done this) that pre 2008, pre Obama, pre Global economic crash, there was a very different mood and feeling in the West. I wasn't even a teenager then, but I can remember it.

There was nowhere near as much fear of terrorism as there is now. There was nowhere near as much 'hate-mobbing' of people who had different opinions. There was more optimism in the air, and PC madness hadn't fully kicked in.

In the US, the idea of gay marriage being legalised wasn't even on the radar in 2008. There was no political action over not letting trannies use certain bathrooms.

Imagine yourself in 2008 thinking about the current political climate, you'd think it's mad.

Post: #33

Yes, very much so. Kind of unavoidable if you're part of the Canadian public school system. I used to be seriously beta. Even one of those "I have no say if chicks have an abortion with my kid and I"m okay with that" types.

There are days I wish I could punch old me.

Post: #34

I have to admit, when I first got interested in politics and the world around me, at the age of 14-15, I had liberal political leanings. Not anything SJW or the like, I just thought conservatives were stupid idiots and the new Croatian leftist government is going to turn us into a new Switzerland.

That phase lasted for 2, maybe three years. Then I made a 180 degree turn and converted into a staunch right-wing nut-job who supported fringe political parties of the right. That phase didn't last past the age of 20. Somewhere around that time I began a long journey of self-discovery, in which I passed though several phases until I discovered neomasculinity and settled where I am now. I still am a right wing nut-job in many ways, but my views on many issues are not so black and white anymore.

Post: #35

No, I was always a shitlord.

Post: #36

(05-06-2016 04:26 PM)John Michael Kane Wrote:  I've never been left-wing. I've been raised by an old-school alpha male provider who is just as opinionated and tough as Trump, but also loving. I also have a feminine, wonderful mother. Those of us who were fortunate enough to be raised by Real Men, by definition, can't be liberal cucks. A man that has a masculine father that teaches him how to respect himself first would never allow his son to become a liberal.

If anything, the longer I've been on this planet, the more disdain I have for liberals in general. They celebrate all that is ugly, evil and vain. A pox on all of them. I hope that Trump and all other right-leaning leaders of men in Europe start finding their balls and fighting back. I've already become more opinionated in my social circle and don't care if it alienates the liberals. They were never open-minded anyways. I'm using my outspoken conservatism as an unapologetic way to screen for wife-worthy women. Not to mention, conservative chicks are far better looking than liberal lesbianic types.

Conservative women for the win:

http://thefederalist.com/2016/04/22/why-...so-pretty/



Tate from Breitbart Texas. If she isn't wife'd up already, I'm sure some fine Texas gentleman wouldn't mind gaming her.

It is incredible how different conservative women and liberal women look, the conservatives are almost always prettier, more feminine, longer hair, cleaner skin, more fit and about 600x more tolerable in all aspects than leftists.

I blame strong families and good (heterosexual) parents, concepts that aren't necessarily anchors of the progressive movement.

Post: #37

I always like documentaries on science and history for some reason. And I was an avid believer in leftism until the book by Neil Strauss called "The Game'' which served as a gateway drug into the Manosphere was a pretty MRA in my position and then into the Dark Enlightenment.

Started with sex and ended up changing me 180 degrees from leftoid to reactionary. I think my pursuit of True Christianity also helped in this endeavor. And many passages I found that were bigoted and sexist or archaic started to make sense after I took the Red Pill.

Post: #38

Nah, from the first time I could vote I was Conservative here in Canada. To be fair/honest though it was only because the Cons were promising to boost military funding and I was in the military at the time. Beyond that I was very uninformed about the election/issues. After I finished my stint I became much more interested in politics and have no desire to vote left or Liberal.

Post: #39

As a young teenager my ultimate fantasy was being a "Global, Benevolent but Harsh Dictator".

I've got less right wing as I've aged!

Post: #40

(05-06-2016 07:46 PM)Rigsby Wrote:  

(05-06-2016 07:05 PM)Rush87 Wrote:  Most people will be. It's drummed into to the education system.

It's not just the education system. It's the art world. The music world.

They've even tried making it the status quo in the STEM fields, but that is proving a bit more difficult. It's easier to hide inadequacies in fields like art/music, than it is in applied mechanics.

Thomas Sowell makes the point that the left dominates in disciplines where ideas don't have to work to survive, such as the liberal arts: http://www.forbes.com/forbes/1997/0908/6005128a.html

Bryan Caplan points out too that the left are heavily represented in the liberal arts but largely absent in the science: http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2015...nce_1.html

I think it is to be expected that young people are more likely to be liberal for biological and social reasons.

Biologically, young people tend to be more idealistic, more anti authority and less capable or long term thinking or thinking about incentives and trade offs.

Social reasons are public school teachers are more likely to be liberal and they instill liberalism into children. Also, popular culture is liberal so liberalism is considered "cool".

People don't become more conservative until they are older because then they actually have to live in the world that liberals created.

Post: #41

I always knew something was not quite right, but I could never put my finger on it until visiting this forum and learning about the Red Pill, game, traditional values, fighting against cultural degenerates, the list goes on.

So naturally I was a bit more left wing when I was younger, but I never understood why shit like faggotry and fatties should get celebrated because where you put your dick or how much corn syrup you consume on a daily basis is not what I would call a "world worthy showcase-able achievement".

Post: #42

(05-06-2016 09:30 PM)Horus Wrote:  I barely recognise the man I was ten years ago. My ideas on culture, nationalism, feminism, equality and so many other issues have completely changed. The man I am now would have hated the man I have become.

Some of my ideas have gradually evolved over time, and I expect them to continue evolving. Some have changed instantly as a result of my experiences, where things I was supposed to believe and was taught to believe simply didn't make any sense.

We sound like the exact same person. I can think back to those days and remember what I did but I can't relate to that way of thinking at all. Some of it seems so stupid, petty, and short-sighted.

At one time, I identified as far left. I knew every left talking point. However, the only thing I disagreed on was gun control. For whatever reason, I always identified with the right of gun ownership and what it meant. Once I started pulling on that small thread, my entire liberal world view started to fall apart.

This progressed faster as I entered college and began to see that people didn't share my belief in self-improvement and equality for all. Instead, they used liberalism as an excuse for their own short-comings and as a way to attack people they either didn't agree with or were threatened by.

I began to openly detest the type of ivory tower liberals that live in most American college towns. The pleasant part is, I've never run into trigglypuffs in the real world. They only seem to populate colleges. I'm thankful for that.

Post: #43

As far as I can remember my politics have always been to the right, even when I was in college a long time ago. My guess is that we're at peak leftism right now and the pendulum is beginning to swing back as people start realizing that the current situation is untenable. Hence the energy around Trump. I can say with pride that only time I was ever on the left wing is when I played hockey.

Post: #44

(05-06-2016 09:02 PM)8ball Wrote:  

(05-06-2016 07:46 PM)Rigsby Wrote:  It's not just the education system. It's the art world. The music world.

It is just the education system, artists are mostly whores that follow whatever is trending in their time. Education system breeds tumor infected leftists so the artist has to make bank. Remember to be a good artist your narcissist levels have to break the ceiling. Once you understand that embracing the crazies seems natural for them. Once our counter culture really takes off, you will see artists pretending to be all non-pc to get attention. Some of them already have.

Well, we obviously disagree a little bit on this, but I get your point.

In fact, I was really thinking quite deeply about this the other day - about artists and musicians and actors being whores. We know that politicians are for the most part, but the so called creative types that like to think they are better than the politicos are none better really.

Even writers that write the scripts for the actors are whores. In fact, they might be the biggest whores of all.

But yes, you are right, they would turn coat and jump on whatever bandwagon they thought would not just get them ahead, but keep them from abject poverty. The system is geared that way so 'artists' do not have independence.

Writers are pretty low down the food chain with regards to hierarchy in the film/tv world. You can see how they are given a brief and they obey. For example, a program recently on UK tv (don't have a tv or watch it myself) showed a high powered police man get done for historic child sex abuse. You what? That never happens in real life. It won't ever happen.

The police (as much as I respect them) are above the law. The writers made some kind of cock and bull story line where this senior officer was brought to book. Total fantasy land. We get to play out our frustrations and get justice by staring at a screen. The writers make this absurdity happen. Whores to a man. And as for the actors...

It's pretty much impossible to play in the art/music/drama world these days. Maybe it always was filled with whores. But it doesn't need to be that way. Whores abound and rule the day now. Producers, writers, directors, actors, musicians. It's called the entertainment industry.

That much we do agree on. Whores are gonna whore. To the left, to the right. Just as long as they keep signalling that virtue (party line), they stand a chance of getting a bit of work. Makes you wonder why anyone goes into that field really.

These days, all the top actors (the ones getting work anyway) have been educated in our top private/public schools, and would have just easily became Chancellor or Prime Minister, such are their connections.

And the most obscene part? They double down like Tom Hiddleston and signal their virtue in a very loud manner via newspaper PR articles about how today's acting world IS very upper class oriented, and that this IS wrong, and that it DOES need to change. Drowning in irony. Well us, not them obviously. At least they say it with a straight face. Maybe they are just good actors. But somehow, I don't believe they really mean the things they say - they are told to say them. Maybe they are just useful idiots. Funny how we don't have a single actor at least positing the proposition that immigration might, just might, be a tad overzealous.

The way it works is this: They come from a very wealthy family that can afford to send them to a 50,000 Dollar per year school. Here they make connections with the future movers and shakers of the planet. They are given an agenda. They are actors. This is what they do. They 'act' out this agenda. The acting is not what you see on screen, it is the persona and real life virtue they possess that is important here. And how they signal it, oh so sincerely.

The media world has cancer. It is metastasizing. The patient is all but dead. But it's taking a while. Everyone just wishes that they would just hurry up and get on with it. Nothing good comes of this now.

We hope for a better day.

(Excuse me for going a bit OT again, but I thought it pertinent to the argument, at least as far as how lefties are bred)

Those actors spouting the lefty line, I think you will find, come from rather more right-wing families going back generations. So they are obviously going against much more deeply held principles. Whores they are. Not for money, but for power.

Post: #45

(05-07-2016 02:10 PM)doc holliday Wrote:  As far as I can remember my politics have always been to the right, even when I was in college a long time ago. My guess is that we're at peak leftism right now and the pendulum is beginning to swing back as people start realizing that the current situation is untenable. Hence the energy around Trump. I can say with pride that only time I was ever on the left wing is when I played hockey.

This whole left thing has taken a while to come about. It's been a real creeper. But "BAM", here we are.

It's very unstable as a system because of how the elites have rolled this out. The left has always been there, but even they are being promoted by the right now. Even the Tories are left-wing! Then again, after the last right-wing labour government under Tony Blair, it kind of makes sense.

Hence my suspicion of the veracity of the whole left/right argument these days.

I don't think it will be a pendulum swing back to the Right though. It will be a snap-back - a sudden violent reaction - and there we'll all be like our grandfathers - getting ready for another world war. I may be very wrong about that.

Everything just feels so contrived these days. I can't help but feel that we are all being fattened up for the kill, somehow.

Post: #46

(05-06-2016 06:22 PM)Shrodax Wrote:  I've been a political junkie ever since W stole the 2000 election from Al Gore (a belief I still maintain). I strongly identified as a liberal/Democrat during high school so much that it basically WAS my identity. I even had a small website on Angelfire devoted to supporting Democrats.

Of course, that was back in the early 2000s when the Democratic party actually stood for the common man, for the blue-collar workers like my father whose jobs have been heavily affected by shitty trade deals. Liberals used to be people like Jim Webb, JFK, or Howard Dean (who was my first-ever vote for president), candidates with populist messages who supported the hard-working middle class that make up the backbone of this country and actually seemed to want to use the power of government to help people.

But nowadays, liberals have shifted to playing identity politics, the victim mentality, and fighting for "social justice." Even though I was a liberal, I never fell into the SJW category. For example, I remember in high school seeing a bunch of flyers for college scholarships that were only being offered to women and minorities; even then I recognized that as racism. I also remember one year a bunch of feminists were bitching about the Victoria's Secret fashion show and made the astute observation that only ugly women were complaining about it.

Bernie Sanders shows some of the signs of the populist liberalism that resonated with me back in the early 2000s. It's too bad he's thrown his hat into the ring with the crazy SJWs, but that's what Democrats have to do now because the crazy SJWs have taken over the party.

I came of age during W's administration, so it was a fairly easy choice to identify as a liberal. At the time, the neo-cons were the only flavor of conservatism available, and I found them to be atrocious. I despised the entire Bush clan, and still do to this day. I've always been highly scientific minded and found the neo-cons' Jesus-talk and Bible thumping highly off-putting. I hated the hypocrisy of the neo-cons who would preach about wanting small, limited government, then turn around and start trying to micromanage everyone's personal lives and massively build up the surveillance state. And even in high school, I thought invading Iraq was a stupid idea, and it turns out I was right. But the Democrats were the only party opposing the invasion, so that was the party to join.

I haven't had the words to describe it until this election, but I've always been a nationalist, compared to the globalist neo-cons. In the 2000s, the Democrats were the only viable option against globalism. I didn't so much leave the Democratic party, as it left me when even the Democratic establishment turned into hypocritical, globalist cucks.

You see this today with the Democrats wanting to invite in as many Muslims as possible, and to hell with the consequences. One reason I used to identify as liberal is because I'm an atheist and couldn't stand the religious, evangelical nutjobs that make up a bulk of the Republican party. I found it refreshing that liberals opposed the kind of people who wanted to make laws deeply rooted in Christianity. But that way of thinking is completely lost on modern day liberals. They seem to think that if I'm critical of Islam and oppose a hoard of Muslim immigrants coming to this country, it's because I'm racist against brown people. No, it's because I've maintained the same principle of being critical against ALL religions and I apply that equally. Today's liberals preach about equality for all, but yet I'm the only one who actually applies my beliefs equally.

The same core principles that made me a liberal in the early 2000s are now the same principles that have guided me more toward the libertarian, alternative-right today. I believe in equally applying my distaste for all organized religions, like I just described. I believe in freedom of speech so much that I was a member of my college chapter of the ACLU, but now liberals are the ones trying to stomp out free speech with their demands for safe spaces. I believe in giving everyone equal opportunities, but now liberals are demanding that also means ensuring equal outcomes. I judge people based on WHO they are and not what they look like, but liberals still insist on dividing people along racial and socioeconomic lines. I've always believed that America works best when we all work together, yet liberals are the ones continually stoking the flames of racial hatred and distrust. I believe in equal rights for gays and trannies because everyone should have the right to live however they want, even if it's deviant, as long as nobody else's rights are violated, but today's liberals are actively promoting being gay and trannie as natural and normal.

Even today, I don't fully understand how liberalism became this corrupted, former shell of itself. I've stayed consistent in my core beliefs, yet they're the ones who have changed. Did liberals actually once stand for something like I think? Or were they always like this and I just didn't see it?

I still don't completely fit in with today's alternative-right, either. Those same libertarian beliefs mean, for example, I'm still pro-choice on abortion and I have a "live and let live" attitude toward gays and trannies. I still believe that government could do good things for people, like universal health care and negotiating good trade deals, if it was managed by people who wanted the government to do good things.

And that is why I like Donald Trump. He actually seems to consistently believe in a similar set of core principles, and he maintains them even if the party surrounding them moves. He seems to genuinely want to make America great again for the middle class and not keep getting us bogged down in pointless wars or idiotic social justice bullshit.

Trump is the kind of presidential candidate I've wanted since the day I first became interested in politics. And in a way, Trump is the candidate that liberals could have been, if they hadn't thrown it all away.

There are some minor differences but this generally sums up my evolution in political beliefs.

Other random notes:

1. I have lived in both liberal and conservative areas of the US. Liberal areas generally have far more expensive real estate and higher taxes yet I find the quality of life to be overall much worse in most cases.

Liberal areas for instance, support policies (like sanctuary zones/rent controls/weak law enforcement/weak self-defense laws) that destroy middle class and below neighborhoods. Libtards don't care because they are fine with paying $1600/month to live in a "up and coming" barely gentrified shithole or they live in isolated safe communities.

2. Furthermore, liberal women generally are uglier and have shittier personalities. Many are truly world class militant feminist cunts. Even when I was more liberal leaning, I recall vividly specifically noting that I got along with conservative leaning women A LOT MORE despite a difference in political beliefs. Better looking, more pleasant, and more fun.

3. My time in the military was like a real life constant experiment that would almost always prove and remind me that gender equality was bullshit; something the libtards have really been pushing down everyone's throats for the last 8 years.

I saw first hand many times women talk big game about how tough and badass they were only to watch them come apart completely once the rubber met the road and they actually had to perform. I also saw blatant double standards be applied; giving women unfair advantages in promotions and performance reviews as well as coddling by white-knight who wanted to fuck them and/or protect them. In a job where shit is potentially life and death, this is completely unacceptable. I tried explaining this to some non-profit feminist cunt one time, explaining how women should at the very least be in entirely separate units and she went nuts and said: "Oh like black people? Separate but equal, right?!"

It was dumb libtard twats like the aforementioned that pushed me away from modern liberal ideology. People who put ridiclous feel-good ideology over being pragmatic and realistic; even if it results in sacrificing other people's lives.

The same chick by the way (to further illustrate the libtard mind) also believed there was a rape epidemic occurring and when I brought up how some men's lives have been destroyed due to false accusations, she said to paraphrase:

"Well, that's just the price that needs to be paid to get the message out there."

I shit you not. This is the modern libtard mindset in a nutshell; people perfectly content and willing to destroy innocent lives just to make a political point. Their contempt for men, especially heterosexual white men is enormous and evil actions are perfectly justifiable against anyone not aligned with their ideology. They are Neo-Red Guard faggot traitors.

I swear on my life, if I was in a country where hitting someone didn't result in criminal charges when I heard that bitch say what she said...

Post: #47

(05-07-2016 07:52 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  As a young teenager my ultimate fantasy was being a "Global, Benevolent but Harsh Dictator".

isn't that ultra-leftwing though?

Post: #48

If you grow up as any kind of minority in the U.S. you don't find the left the left actively comes to find you first. It doesn't matter if you're black, latino, asian, etc.. a lot of America's political left is built on identity politics. This means even if you don't want anything to do with it you will still get included by default based on this.

This is reinforced by minority group think too for every race. I don't entirely blame latinos and blacks for swallowing the political left blue pill more though because they have a much stronger leftist identity politics base than other groups. The indoctrination definitely begins much earlier for these races because of the media and popular victimhood politics.

When you believe "the man" is keeping you down at every turn then it's easy not to evaluate your own culture first. Way past the civil rights era and into the 80's and beyond any minority still claiming victimhood is a whining twat. Things are completely different now and yet the left still makes minorities believe that this is the Jim Crow era.

Like everyone else I was exposed to leftist garbage the most in college and dipped my toe in liberal politics briefly.

I believe I was much more insulated from this indoctrination since..

I didn't grow up in a safe suburban environment for a lot of my late childhood and teen years. I saw actual conditions of poverty and crime growing up and saw what "multiculturalism" really was like when you strip away civility that's more present in middle and upper class environment.

If you're from a northeast or southeast asian background in the U.S. around my age chances are good you have one or more relatives who directly saw combat against Communism. The whole marxist shit in college was over the top even when I was going to college. I remember one sociology professor I had was a short haired butch looking white liberal professor. She had us all buy her nonsense books and I remember the short biography of her on back cover even used the term "marxist" to describe her political views. This was way back before the SJW shit took off in the mainstream and even then that struck me as seriously wrong especially when a few of my relatives actively fought Communists.

I also saw how in college most white, black, and latino liberals couldn't really stand one another. There was tons of hypocrisy there and even though I went to a pretty big CA university there was a lot of voluntary segregation going on. Liberal identity politics was also highly tiered as it is now with certain races getting a bigger soapbox to preach than others. It was easy to see how the Hollywood media kind of reinforces standard identity politics group think too.

Although in my day the whole LGBT and feminism thing wasn't the trendy cause de jure like it is now for so many in American society. I rarely even heard the term feminism used in college. So race still got top billing when it came to victimhood politics.

Post: #49

(05-08-2016 04:00 PM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  Although in my day the whole LGBT and feminism thing wasn't the trendy cause de jure like it is now for so many in American society. I rarely even heard the term feminism used in college. So race still got top billing when it came to victimhood politics.

Sometimes grammar nerd with poor impulse control says, "it's du jour, not de jure."

Post: #50

(05-08-2016 04:11 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  

(05-08-2016 04:00 PM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  Although in my day the whole LGBT and feminism thing wasn't the trendy cause de jure like it is now for so many in American society. I rarely even heard the term feminism used in college. So race still got top billing when it came to victimhood politics.

Sometimes grammar nerd with poor impulse control says, "it's du jour, not de jure."

You're right i'll blame any and all grammar errors for posting this at the crack of dawn where i'm at.