Post: #1

Much time is often spent here trying to improve the way we are treated by women. What about the way we are treated by other men, strangers, in all the various interactions throughout our days?

Have you noticed the way some men are called "Sir" and others are referred to in diminuitives, such as "bud," "bro," or "pal." What about why some guys have their girlfriends hit on through social media, or even worse, in front of them? And how some guys always end up doing "bitch work" on the job, no matter how many times they switch companies.

This is a theory I've developed over the years, I'm posting in the hopes that commentary and critique will help refine it.

How you get treated by other men is directly correlated to how much they fear you.

This isn't an overt fear like when the school bully demanded your lunch money. It's more of a subconscious, back of the mind nagging in brain of one man that communicates to his conscious "I'm not going to mess with this guy."

There are two main components to your threat score which effectively determine the bulk of how you are treated by other males in your life: physical intimidation and economic intimidation.

Physical intimidation is by far the larger component. When a male stranger sees you, in less than a second the primitive parts of their brain have instantly sized you up. Yes, in less than a second, and without you saying or doing anything, the bulk of how you are to be treated in the interaction has already been determined.

We can break the physical category into three main parts. The largest, let's say roughly 60% is raw height. Sorry short guys. If you don't believe this yet, look up the National Geographic body language video where they have a tall guy and then a short guy "accidentally" take another man's beer off the bar. The second subcomponent, maybe 35% is your muscular physique. And the last little bit is any special attributes you have, like if someone knows you were a professional fighter, Navy SEAL, or you were wearing a biker jacket or something.

The other, smaller component is economic intimidation. Basically males want to preserve their access to resources. In our day and age, that is mainly money, but this category also includes things like power in the workplace, ability to provide jobs or opportunities, connections you may have, as well as the quantity and quality of females you keep.

Economic intimidation is the reason politicians are often physically decrepit yet are catered to hand and foot by all around them. It's also the reason your subordinate bites his tongue, or the hotel worker smiles and holds the elevator for you, even though in actuality the only thing on his mind is the ending time of his shift. But we see that economic intimidation is not nearly as important as physical intimidation. It doesn't take your subordinate much effort to tell you to fuck off, and find a new job. That bartender might feign interest in your story, but he's not going to bend over backwards for your $5 tip. On the other hand both of these hypothetical guys are never, ever going to mouth of to a 6'5" UFC fighter in a biker jacket.

So to summarize:

Physical Intimidation: 80%
60% Height
35% Muscular Physique
5% Miscellaneous Skills

Economic Intimidation: 20%
A mixture of:
Workplace Authority
Ability to provide Jobs/Connections
Ability to provide female introductions
Net Worth

Now let's tackle the elephant in the room, which runs contrary to canon commonly discussed. Where does my personality fit it? Can't I just be the life of the party and compensate for a small statue and my fry cook job? The answer, I've found is usually no. The reason being, the male brain has developed throughout millennia to identify threats based mainly on size and to treat them accordingly. Money, a more recent invention dating back a couple thousand years has also been learned to be valued. But "being the life of the party" or having a great personality is a very modern invention. This is simply something that would not have been done in a primeval village, a male at the bottom of the pecking order acting as if he were the village king or leader. It would probably have been enough back then to be banished or killed.

For this reason a male acting above their station according to the cold hard calculus outlined above is going to come off as wholly incongruent. They would be an oddity, a source of amusement, but not one of genuine respect. Also, even if one were to pull off having a magnetic and boisterous personality, one would lack the physical real estate necessary to avoid being overshadowed by larger males with similar personalities.

So what are the practical takeaways of this information? I think the most important thing is to understand the interactions and ACCEPT the way you are treated by other men. This stuff is not deeply ingrained in the reptile portions of the brain and, debate it all you will, is not going away. One should be honest about where you fall in the intimidation scale and understand the general way you can expect to be treated by other males.

More importantly, it's possible to actually improve your status with your peers. It probably comes as no shock, that in this area as well as many others posted about on these forums, the easiest and most effective way to improve your lot is to work out. Looking at the criteria I've identified, there is nothing you can do about height, special skills don't matter all that much, and gaining economic power takes time and is becoming increasingly difficult in our shattered economy. Working out is relatively easy and costs next to nothing, except a few hours per week time investment. Nothing shocking here; I suppose the entire post could be summarized as: you'll get treated with much more respect if you work out.

Post: #2

What about the quality of women you are known to roll with

Post: #3

Watch 12 Angry Men from 1957 to see the how males on different social level act.

Post: #4

Great post, I love the psychology of the human mind and body.
A lot of what you say is spot-on!

I have been studying this stuff a lot lately and more importantly implementing a lot lately.

Things to keep in mind for men looking to increase social status:
Don't be scruffy or too clean shaven, keep a good stubble going.
The psychology behind this is, you look rugged and masculine, but not sloppy. If your a big beard guy, accept this as Red Pill truth and just fucking move on. No need to rationalize or argue it to death.

Get a REAL Sun Tan but not a Fake n Bake tan.
These look great and force you to get your ass outdoors.
If you live in a cloudy cold area, then this forces you to become Cold Adapted which will turn you into a tempered steel, super hardened bad ass, bursting with brown fat tissue.
If you live in a 24/7 winter wonderland, then this doesn't even apply because everyone around you is pasty as fuck.

Lastly, always keep your head up higher than everyone else, if you need to look down, look down with your eyes not your head.

This shit works, even if it seems ridiculous, it works!
It taps into some primal old world DNA and legitimately manipulates people into putting you onto a pedestal.

Post: #5

(04-07-2016 12:44 PM)TrifeLife Wrote:  What about the quality of women you are known to roll with

In theory it would make a big difference, but in actuality it's negligible. The reason being, under this theory physical size is already sufficient to determine a rough estimate of the amount and quality of women in your life. While it's possible for a short skinny guy to somehow circumvent nature's cruel criteria (game theory certainly does tell us this all the time,) it isn't very likely. A short skinny guy could also be succeeding through significant economic intimidation, like being a celebrity or the mayor's son, but again, this is in fact quite rare, so your physical intimidation level is just about all that's needed to size up the level of respect afforded to you by random males.

Post: #6

Interesting thought.

Could be my biases talking, but I feel like you've got it flipped around. Maybe physical was 80% in bygone days, but I'd say physical is 20% now. No doubt that it still plays a part (especially in scenarios like the beer test you mentioned, which was a good video), but non-physical has grown increasingly more important. Non-physical would comprise of economic/social/political intimidation or power.

Or maybe I misunderstood your post.

Post: #7

Just because a dude is big or has money does not mean he's a great leader, or one people look to for guidance, advice, and decision making.

Plenty of AMOGs are skinny hipster looking nobodies but are the life of the room, slay the most pussy, and everyone wants to talk to and be around. It's more all encompassing than looks and resources.

Post: #8

http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the...he-office/

Post: #9

(04-07-2016 12:48 PM)Glaucon Wrote:  Watch 12 Angry Men from 1957 to see the how males on different social level act.

It was remade a few years back (I think in the late 1990s) by William Friedkin, and that was a very good film also. Maybe even better than the original. Jack Lemmon was in it...

Post: #10

(04-07-2016 07:23 PM)General Stalin Wrote:  Just because a dude is big or has money does not mean he's a great leader, or one people look to for guidance, advice, and decision making.

Plenty of AMOGs are skinny hipster looking nobodies but are the life of the room, slay the most pussy, and everyone wants to talk to and be around. It's more all encompassing than looks and resources.

He's not talking about leadership skills though. Just first impressions I think.

Post: #11

(04-07-2016 07:44 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

(04-07-2016 12:48 PM)Glaucon Wrote:  Watch 12 Angry Men from 1957 to see the how males on different social level act.

It was remade a few years back (I think in the late 1990s) by William Friedkin, and that was a very good film also. Maybe even better than the original. Jack Lemmon was in it...

And George C. Scott.
And Edward James Olmos.
And Armin Mueller-Stahl.
And James Gandolfini.
And Ossie Davis.

Everybody was in that one. Stellar cast with a stellar script. It's brilliant.

God save us from people who mean well. -storm

Post: #12

(04-07-2016 03:23 AM)Tapestry Wrote:  How you get treated by other men is directly correlated to how much they fear you.

I'd suggest:

How you get treated by other men is directly-correlated to how much they respect you (for K-Types / Alpha / less bitter Betas) vs how much they resent you for highlighting the qualities they themselves lack (for r-types / bitter betas / Gammas). K-Types will want your company. r-types will actively-seek to undermine you with treachery.

I personally treat men based upon weighing up a variety of factors that I consider respectable for men to possess. Off-hand, the qualities I prefer in a mate are things like:

Strength (Physical and Emotional)
Honourable
Courageous
Committed (to his tribe and his beliefs)
Disciplined
Confident
Active participant in his life
Incorruptible (by outside forces)
Sense Of Justice (doesn't abuse his authority)
Speaks his mind
Easy-going
Liked by women

Guys don't need to posses all of these qualities, but the more they have, the more I click with them, and the deeper my level of respect. As men I know reveal, say, a lack of honour, I'm less committed to the relationship. (Honour, of course, is peer-dependent morality. Even the Bikers I know have their own codes: ie "Snitches get stiches", "Love Honour Respect").

My main breaking-point lately is emotional weakness coupled with a lack of forward motion. If he's not going to do the work to improve, I don't have to waste my time listening.

I suspect people naturally fall into a pecking order based upon the possession of those kind of qualities, and those who lack them are mistrusted and disliked by both men and women.

But to assign 80% of this process to physical intimidation alone?

Ok, I'm outside a club with my mate Dave, distracted by some cute birds across the road. Then he nudges my ribs: "Time to knuckle up Bosch." I instantly snap to attention to back him up, because I know he doesn't go picking fights and has little patience with those who do. I know whatever has caused this fight was enough to make his patience snap, and since he doesn't abuse his power over others, the fight is for a Just reason. I know he has my back, so I naturally have his, and he isn't going to run away and leave me to take the heat by myself. If we get our arses kicked, we go down together.

This is why I respect Dave, and view him as a peer.

Now say we're sizing up the opponents. There's a tall buff guy that's unable to meet my gaze slowly raising his fists whilst not paying attention to his periphary. The other guy is a short, greyhound-thin guy pacing like a caged tiger, hands already in fists at his side, staring directly at me with wide, unblinking eyes.

I can recognise which one is the threat.

I've seen too many huge guys felled by small guys. The Sgt-At-Arms in a bike club isn't always the biggest guy. A friend-of-a-friend is six four and jacked, and was humbled by having his nose broken when we were in Alice Springs fifteen years back, and he's been uncomfortable around pubs and guys with alcohol ever since.

Some guys are full of illusory superiority and think they can take big guys, which makes them more of a threat. Or some smaller guys actively-seek it out bigger targets for Social Jostling, which is why my mate Tony once lamented that he and I were what his dad used to call 'Bastard Sized', meaning you go into a pub and 'every bastard wants to pick a fight with you to prove something'.

I was rehearsing a fight scene a while ago, and the girls watching were saying it looked 'silly' because my opponent was eight inches taller than me. Until I lifted him off the ground and threw onto the mattress behind me, where I could have easily choked him out. The girls: "ohmigod, you lifted him like he weighed nothing..."

You just can't tell. A dearly-departed mate of mine was utterly-fearless when it came to conflict. I remember the first night I met him as a young teenager: we're both walking back along a country road at night from a farm party, and a hotted-up Holden full of five guys roars past, throwing a beer bottle near our feet. They yelled out something as they sped off and he yelled back at them.

The car screeches to a stop. Reversing lights come on, roars back to where we are. "What did you fucking say, cunt?"

My mate leant in the window. "I SAID..." and repeated his exact words.

I'm thinking: "Jesus, we're miles from anywhere. We're about to fucking die."

However, the guys in the car didn't know how to react to this, and the guy in the window told us it was probably a good idea for us to just head home now, but was audibly-nervous as he said it. The car took off.

My mate wasn't tall, and wasn't jacked. Hell, he wore glasses, looked like RamZPaul and had an effeminate tone of voice, but goddamn it - the guy didn't take shit from anyone. I once saw him knock out an obese lesbian with one sudden punch after she'd furiously-hit him about twenty times in a row. The cops were sternly-questioning him after and he said, with absolute conviction: "I didn't hit her for being a Lesbian. I hit her despite the fact that I suspected she was Mentally-Retarded. She's just that much of a bitch."

The cops didn't arrest him, and, after they left, a group of patched bikers bought him multiple beer.

He wasn't a traditionally-intimidating guy at all, but he was respected, (and is dearly-missed), but some of the scariest thugs you'll ever meet, none of whom considered him anything but a Peer.

Post: #13

(04-08-2016 02:09 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  My mate wasn't tall, and wasn't jacked. Hell, he wore glasses, looked like RamZPaul and had an effeminate tone of voice, but goddamn it - the guy didn't take shit from anyone. I once saw him knock out an obese lesbian with one sudden punch after she'd furiously-hit him about twenty times in a row. The cops were sternly-questioning him after and he said, with absolute conviction: "I didn't hit her for being a Lesbian. I hit her despite the fact that I suspected she was Mentally-Retarded. She's just that much of a bitch."

The cops didn't arrest him, and, after they left, a group of patched bikers bought him multiple beer.

He wasn't a traditionally-intimidating guy at all, but he was respected, (and is dearly-missed), but some of the scariest thugs you'll ever meet, none of whom considered him anything but a Peer.

Dammit, I'm glad you're posting again.

Post: #14

(04-07-2016 07:44 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

(04-07-2016 12:48 PM)Glaucon Wrote:  Watch 12 Angry Men from 1957 to see the how males on different social level act.

It was remade a few years back (I think in the late 1990s) by William Friedkin, and that was a very good film also. Maybe even better than the original. Jack Lemmon was in it...

Thanks, going to watch it. I am always suspicious about remakes that is why I never watched it.

Post: #15

(04-07-2016 03:23 AM)Tapestry Wrote:  There are two main components to your threat score which effectively determine the bulk of how you are treated by other males in your life: physical intimidation and economic intimidation.

Physical intimidation is by far the larger component. When a male stranger sees you, in less than a second the primitive parts of their brain have instantly sized you up. Yes, in less than a second, and without you saying or doing anything, the bulk of how you are to be treated in the interaction has already been determined.

We can break the physical category into three main parts. The largest, let's say roughly 60% is raw height. Sorry short guys. If you don't believe this yet, look up the National Geographic body language video where they have a tall guy and then a short guy "accidentally" take another man's beer off the bar. The second subcomponent, maybe 35% is your muscular physique. And the last little bit is any special attributes you have, like if someone knows you were a professional fighter, Navy SEAL, or you were wearing a biker jacket or something.

Let me just dispute that.

While I understand that theoretically height may seem like a big factor in terms of how you are treated, in my life experience that has not necessarily been the case.

The baddest cats, the truest alphas I have ever met were usually shorts guys, they are usually the bravest, the most stand up guys comparing to taller guys. Remember that tall guys have been tall since secondary school, nobody was fucking with them from early days, they are not used to drama, many of them don't respond so well to it as a short guy would.


Your general vibe, your ability to fight, how you speak, how you walk and your confidence are equally important traits if not more, than your height. I see so many tall lame guys that the only time that I think about my height is when I come to this forum haha.

Don't get me wrong, I have met some tall guys who were true alphas too and you are obviously better off being a tall guy comparing to being short but I think other qualities/characteristics that are concomitant to your physical state need to be considered too.

Post: #16

I can't say that I agree with the basis of the theory, "How you get treated by other men is directly correlated to how much they fear you"

It's just not my experience at all, at least not in normal daily social interactions, or with friends, or clients. I don't find encountering men to be the adversarial situation your theory is based on.

Big dudes have been respectful, short little dudes dickheads, vice versa and everything in between.

I'm not a jacked dude, I'm not tall (5'10"), I don't think there are many men who would be physically intimidated by me at all. Yet I generally get respect. Why? I'm not sure exactly, but I'm confident, direct, clear, respectful, well dressed, and generally know what I'm talking about. I do have a pretty face .

Similar to what AB wrote in his great post, I think you're over-estimating physical bulk and underestimating a multitude of intangibles. You are correct that our brains run calculations when we encounter someone, but it is much more complex than simply "Is he physically stronger than me/does he have more or less money than me?". And the resulting treatment isn't directly related to those, in my experience.

Post: #17

I don't think it is just height these days, at least not in modern times in the west.

For one, most tall guys have been tall their entire childhood and more often than not have been actively taught by female teachers and relatives to not be dominating. This is why you get the stereotype of the gentle giant.

Also, a lot of tall guys are goofy as fuck and have insecure body language and are far from ripped.



Another thing is that in my experience some of the scariest fuckers who commanded immediate respect and submission were either average height and somewhat lean or on the
short side.

It's a bit difficult to explain and quantify but they had a look about them, body language, and a face and general feeling about them that they were not only capable of violence but were quick to react and even over react.

Just my .02

Post: #18

(04-08-2016 02:44 AM)pitt Wrote:  You are obviously better off being a tall guy comparing to being short but I think other qualities/characteristics that are concomitant to your physical state need to be considered too.

Height is an advantage, not the advantage.

Women say they only want tall men.

But...

1. When do women ever know what they want?

2. When are they ever satisfied when given exactly what they said they wanted?

3. Why do they constantly end up dating men who don't match their publicly-stated wants, even when they have options?

'Tall' strikes me their misreading of what they actually want: dominant masculinity that triggers their longing to feel submissive.

This is why my height never comes up in online dating: they expect me to be tall based upon the dominant frame I project in my photos.

Cultivate that, and you never need to worry about your height.

Post: #19

Well, I guess this explains why the world is led by 25 year old bodybuilders with manicured stubble and a motorbike.

Post: #20

Pretty much all of you guys are missing the point of what the OP is saying and going off on tangents.

Every time height is mentioned on this forum, usually in the game section, this happens.

I reckon the average height of RVFers is well below average.

My conclusion:

Post: #21

(04-08-2016 09:13 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  Pretty much all of you guys are missing the point of what the OP is saying and going off on tangents.

Every time height is mentioned on this forum, usually in the game section, this happens.

I reckon the average height of RVFers is well below average.

My conclusion:

What was OP's point then? If it was "bigger guys are more intimidating than small guys in the first instance", of course they are. Water is also wet.

His thesis was "How you get treated by other men is directly correlated to how much they fear you". To which I counter that size is a factor, but not the only factor or even the dominant factor.

Post: #22

(04-07-2016 01:48 PM)ScrapperTL Wrote:  Great post, I love the psychology of the human mind and body.
A lot of what you say is spot-on!

I have been studying this stuff a lot lately and more importantly implementing a lot lately.

Things to keep in mind for men looking to increase social status:
Don't be scruffy or too clean shaven, keep a good stubble going.
The psychology behind this is, you look rugged and masculine, but not sloppy. If your a big beard guy, accept this as Red Pill truth and just fucking move on. No need to rationalize or argue it to death.

Get a REAL Sun Tan but not a Fake n Bake tan.
These look great and force you to get your ass outdoors.
If you live in a cloudy cold area, then this forces you to become Cold Adapted which will turn you into a tempered steel, super hardened bad ass, bursting with brown fat tissue.
If you live in a 24/7 winter wonderland, then this doesn't even apply because everyone around you is pasty as fuck.

Lastly, always keep your head up higher than everyone else, if you need to look down, look down with your eyes not your head.

This shit works, even if it seems ridiculous, it works!
It taps into some primal old world DNA and legitimately manipulates people into putting you onto a pedestal.

Too clean shaven. LOL. You made me laugh for about three full minutes, non-stop. If you believe "stubble theory", you're living in the 80s.

Post: #23

(04-08-2016 09:33 AM)Peregrine Wrote:  

(04-08-2016 09:13 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  Pretty much all of you guys are missing the point of what the OP is saying and going off on tangents.

Every time height is mentioned on this forum, usually in the game section, this happens.

I reckon the average height of RVFers is well below average.

My conclusion:

What was OP's point then? If it was "bigger guys are more intimidating than small guys in the first instance", of course they are. Water is also wet.

His thesis was "How you get treated by other men is directly correlated to how much they fear you". To which I counter that size is a factor, but not the only factor or even the dominant factor.

He was talking about immediate, fleeting interactions.

First impressions, if you will.

Post: #24

(04-08-2016 09:37 AM)wilberforceeggmont Wrote:  

(04-07-2016 01:48 PM)ScrapperTL Wrote:  Great post, I love the psychology of the human mind and body.
A lot of what you say is spot-on!

I have been studying this stuff a lot lately and more importantly implementing a lot lately.

Things to keep in mind for men looking to increase social status:
Don't be scruffy or too clean shaven, keep a good stubble going.
The psychology behind this is, you look rugged and masculine, but not sloppy. If your a big beard guy, accept this as Red Pill truth and just fucking move on. No need to rationalize or argue it to death.

Get a REAL Sun Tan but not a Fake n Bake tan.
These look great and force you to get your ass outdoors.
If you live in a cloudy cold area, then this forces you to become Cold Adapted which will turn you into a tempered steel, super hardened bad ass, bursting with brown fat tissue.
If you live in a 24/7 winter wonderland, then this doesn't even apply because everyone around you is pasty as fuck.

Lastly, always keep your head up higher than everyone else, if you need to look down, look down with your eyes not your head.

This shit works, even if it seems ridiculous, it works!
It taps into some primal old world DNA and legitimately manipulates people into putting you onto a pedestal.

Too clean shaven. LOL. You made me laugh for about three full minutes, non-stop. If you believe "stubble theory", you're living in the 80s.

I have done Door to Door Sales, Business to Business Sales, been a CEO, Chief Marketing Officer and a Purchasing Agent for huge Manufacturing Companies. All with great success.

My perfect stubble, tan and snobby/arrogant head held high don't lie brother.
People subconsciously respect silly little things like this.

It helps to have 7% bodyfat, bigger than average muscles and a good sense of style too (clothes/haircut).

This is basic shit - I feel stupider for even having to explain it.

Post: #25

I would say size is typically the dominant factor, unless there is some significant factor that changes the balance of power. If you are professionally engaged in things that make people think you are very dangerous it can change the dynamic, but generally taller, bigger guys have the advantage when other things are broadly equal. I don't think simply being more successful or whatever makes as much difference to the intra-male dynamic as shorter guys like to think. Bigger guys can always carry sway to an extent based on the 'what are you going to do about it?' factor. If you want to shift the balance there then you need to have the kind of credentials that provide a compelling answer to that unspoken question.