Post: #1

So the first thread I made on this was shite, so I've broken this up into a separate thread. I'd like to hear from some old guard here that actually do LTRs and have gone long (had kids).

I've put things under the microscope and at a theoretical level, I'm unsure that a woman can actually be sufficiently trained or tamed to be a proper wife.

Everyone knows one or a few "red pill women." These are what I consider unicorns. The idea of a woman that will never leave you is preposterous, that blue pill fantasy is bullshit. That idea of a unicorn is false.

But really putting successful families and LTRs under a microscope, what I see is a woman that willingly submits and has a natural inclination to please a man. And that, with a proper man, makes leading easy but also creates natural incentives for him to want to please her in the same way. Both genders strive to be their best selves.

I have, I think worked nearly as close I can get to having a woman perfectly charmed who did not have a natural desire to please a man. I've been SMV10 to her at times, but she's never taken an active role in greasing the wheels or making things work better.

In this case, a woman without this innate desire (which I assume is instilled by her father and the relationship between them), is required at all times to be charmed, tamed or figuratively beaten into submission. To let down your guard is to let her consume you and for her to ruin the family. How long you can be drunk at the wheel depends on how intense she is, and how many options she has.

What I've seen with women with this natural desire to please is a significant increase in the time one can be drunk at the wheel, less friction and much lower failure rates.

I think I'm close to finding the answer here, but I'm curious to find out. I've got about 6 months to a year before I can say that a woman can ultimately be tamed and changed. Alchemy of sorts.

The leverage or dread here seems to be creating the ultimate nuclear family. Once you get that in order proper, dread isn't that you have options (and you should) but that family is what you give her for her willing submission and interest in pleasing you, actively. That when she stops bringing her a-game, you have friends to catch up with instead of time to go to the zoo.

This doesn't mean she lacks independence, but instead considers that aside from her duty to please, just as your duty is to be the masculine force in her life and the silverback patriarch to your children.

Right now I have some resistance that she feels as though she's going to shed her actual being. I'm playing with the devil's core right now. I'm being very careful and trying to consult some people that have a better background in nuclear physics while I sit here playing with a screwdriver.

Post: #2

First, why do you got to start a new thread? You could have posted this in your original thread.

Second, and this is a more important point... so listen. If your thoughts are this disorganized (I'm still lost in reading your post - devil's core? alchemy? what are you talking about?), I don't think you are in a position to make any major decisions about your marriage.

It still sounds as if you gave yourself a self imposed deadline based on some girl's talk about divorcing her husband, and that because she gave you a couple of IOIs you're thinking about jumping ship and blowing up your family in the process.

And for what?

My troll radar is starting to show a blip here.

Post: #3

(12-16-2015 10:24 PM)CleanSlate Wrote:  My troll radar is starting to show a blip here.

Post: #4

This is not trolling, I thought that reference was pretty clear. It's a reference to people who are admittedly experienced but shooting from the hip. It's explicitly a reference to this incident in pop-sci.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hh89h8FxNhQ

Namely playing with very dangerous stuff that you understand well to figure out something and putting it all on the line. The demon core was a piece of nuclear history which killed many people that were not careful enough with it (a reference to women).

This is a serious discussion on the real feasibility of nuclear families in modern times, and whether or not a woman needs a natural desire to submit and please for that to survive or if it can be trained.

Post: #5

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not trolling, that you've just spent way too long in academia and theory and don't have enough practice stating things as they are in reality.

Is it fair to say your topic can be summed up as "Can women be trained to be the wife I'm wanting/needing"?

The answer is.. kind of, to a slight extent. the question is if it's worth it. She has to have the base for it though. It's more a polishing and improving on her specific tendencies. But you'll never turn her into something she has a natural resistance to, and you certainly won't do it 10 years in, after 2 kids. Those are things to establish in the early days, even before marriage if possible.

The real question is, why are you feeling this now as opposed to before? Have you never been satisfied and it's just that now you're wondering about a restart elsewhere, or is it that things have declined only recently? Or is it just because that near-wall other woman you mentioned in the other thread batted her eyes and gave you tingles?

You said you've been married for 10 years. You should know who your wife is and what she's capable of being by now, so the answer to your question should be straight forward. It's a little late to want her to be someone different. And it's fine if you do, don't get me wrong, maybe it's simply that you've changed and she doesn't fit with that any longer, is that the case?

You either decide to deal with the issues, or you decide your path is somewhere else. 'Training' your wife 10 years in really isn't an option, not to a meaningful extent.

If you want a different person, and you feel it will make you happier, then go that route.

I'm still trying to understand what the issues are with your wife. Right now it's just pedantry with vague masculine principles. You need to give concrete examples of what's going wrong in your opinion. I think you said she supports the family financially, she's paid for the house remodeling, you go school. You're a dependent of hers at this point basically, not the best position as far as leverage.

Please avoid metaphor and simile in your answer.

Quote: I've got about 6 months to a year before I can say that a woman can ultimately be tamed and changed.

What does this mean exactly? What is happening in 6 mos/1 year?

Post: #6

This dude isn't trolling he is just a drama king.

The cold truth is you should divorce your wife after the holidays and import a foreign chick that wants to be your real teammate. Rather than blow this up because you are a drama king and this chick you lust after is a drama queen. Perfect match.

Post: #7

(12-16-2015 11:14 PM)GlobalMan Wrote:  The real question is, why are you feeling this now as opposed to before? Have you never been satisfied and it's just that now you're wondering about a restart elsewhere, or is it that things have declined only recently? Or is it just because that near-wall other woman you mentioned in the other thread batted her eyes and gave you tingles?

Because we started a family and I don't believe it's stable enough to survive for 20+ years. When we were just dating or cohabiting without kids, there's tons of time to work on smoothing things out. There's lots of opportunities to keep attraction really high.

With kids, small arguments wreck entire days. You don't have time anymore to smooth it out and hash out power struggles. Either the day shines or it dies.

Please don't mistake my post as some musing that it's all over and I don't want this to work anymore. It's an honest to god introspective look on whether or not I think a relationship without militant respect can survive honestly with kids when both members in the couple have real SMV. (This doesn't seem to matter so much for low value couples, their problems are lower it appears in maslow's needs, as in they have trouble with housing stressing things before first world problems like power struggles).

Quote: I've got about 6 months to a year before I can say that a woman can ultimately be tamed and changed.

What does this mean exactly? What is happening in 6 mos/1 year?
[/quote]


This isn't something that really changed over 10 years. We spent 8 years with me at the helm, but providing her significant pouting room over this. I would say we waffled between overt and covert control. I was always outward about this, so I would say it was softly overt. I believe there to be enormous merit to the statement "the most responsible teenager in the house." I let her say she hates me and that she's going to run away in that regard. What I'm saying in the time period is you can't just rambo this stuff into action, it takes time. Inch by inch. I think I'll have the ground covered in 6 months to a year. In a year, if it's not completely locked, it's not happening.

However, I don't believe that model works when you have children. You guys have to be iron clad. You have to have your shit sorted on a very high level. Right hand needs to know what left hand is doing.

I believe the idea that partners "are equal" is tripe. That is just a way to say the woman is in control, and she will ultimately lose respect for any man she can control. Which means, to me, unilaterally, the man must be in overt control for their to be sufficient stability for children for that long. And no longer is their time or the place for her to throw tantrums about that anymore.

That's what this is about, whether or not you can negotiate surrender. I am optimistic. But it requires sacrifice on the man's end and restructuring the motivators in the relationship away from dread (in terms of options) to family. That her submission is her tradeoff for family, and that is not negotiable essentially.

I don't think you can "game" being "dad" forever. I think that is covert supplication. It is I think the equivalent of saying "we are equal" (she's in control). To me, she must recognise, respect and be willing to please you for the fact that she knows you offer her loyalty and gave her your DNA while you slug things out long term.

If you just play the game and try to be "the best dad" you're just cleaning the house and asking for a pat on the back. Of course you're going to be a fucking great father, the rub is that she's got to recognise that you sacrificed the male power fantasy of spreading your seed and drinking with your friends for this. You gave her the ultimate goal in her life, and you need her to be the compliment to that sacrifice.

They say that married game is game on hardmode. With kids, it's on ultra hard mode. And you have to adjust. I know this forum is very anti marriage, and anti kids. But plenty of guys in here have jumped down into the belly of the beast and can read into this and know in depth what I'm talking about.

Too many of my friends are blue pillers to have this discussion about, and the best red piller I know is tradcon, so its a different ballgame.

Post: #8

Post: #9

The OP picked a board name that just sounds gay to me, so I'm not surprised by the thread content.

Post: #10

I was good at solving Rubix cubes as a kid, but this might be even more challenging to decipher.

To be clear, I hear you saying you want to be unequivocal leader of your household and you want your woman to fall in line. No 50/50 partnership, or trade offs. In your perfect world you are the president who posssses the ultimate rubber stamp and veto power.

Otherwise, are you REALLY prepared to split?

I recall you starting your other thread alluding to your mastery when it came to the female persuasion, so what incentives are you giving her to encourage her complete submission?

Are you showing through your actions that you have her and the kids best interest at heart?

You also mentioned being "at the helm" for the majority of the marriage, much to her dismay.

Admittedly-dread game is much easier to employ as a single guy without kids, besides you can only use the nuclear option so many times without it losing it's effectiveness. Marriage is comparative to baseball; Every top pitcher should have more than one pitch to retire a batter. You can't just fling fastballs time after time and expect the same results. Likewise, you to have more than an iron fist when seeking compliance.

This is why the use of game techniques are strongly encouraged even when inside of the framework of a relationship. Even more so before you enter into the union itself. Sounds like a matter of trust; if she doesn't trust you to ably steer the ship, you will get resistance at every turn.

Or is it that you just upset that you have been complicit in creating an environment, where there are two chefs in the kitchen with different ideas on how to prepare the same meal?

Post: #11

Hear ye, hear ye...

10 to 1 on midlife crisis, 6 to 1 on troll and....It's troll coming around the around the turn, catching up to midlife crisis! Midlife crisis and troll neck and neck!!!

Troll, midlife crisis, troll, midlife crisis...Oh Wow!!! Metal breakdown leaves the pack behind and catches up the leaders! Ladies hold on to your giant, attention whoring hats, American Pharaoh is a barbie at a carnival compared to the breakneck pace at which Midlife Crisis, Troll and Mental Breakdown (jockeyed by schizo tommy) are approaching the finish line!!!!

We're all sad about coke fiend back in the pack, behind by 8...

Post: #12

This whole idea is so bass-ackwards to me.

I don't hope to tame a woman; women hope to tame me. I'm the wildman, the catch. The second part may take a while to convince them of but they eventually figure it out.

They never will completely tame me, of course, but that's the general frame of the relationship.

The rawest, freest version of me is the guy out running around like a madman at night. Who will run off with some other girl if she pisses me off or hit on her friends. Maybe even take the girl over to her place and let her catch me (ok this extreme is rare, but it has happened and gives an idea of how an untamed man might behave and get away with). Who will be there in the club with his arm around some other girl when she walks in if she decides to follow me out.

Her desire is to tame me and turn me into a more domesticated version of myself - and part of me wants her to, knowing that my health and sanity depend on slowing down. So I let her do it if she plays by the rules.

Yes, they will change their behavior in their attempt to domesticate you. Maybe even become something they weren't. For example, when I met my last girlfriend she was doing the whole catwalk model thing and working the rich guys in the clubs. Promo modeling and getting driven around in her older Korean boyfriend's car with a private driver, etc.

Wouldn't lift a finger to clean shit up, spent all her time on her cell phone while we were out. Stereotypical Asian tiger - I couldn't fucking stand her half the time.

By the time I left her, she was in our apartment teaching herself to cook by filling my belly with with constant three-course meals, even while holding down her job at the local ice cream shop. Complete 180 turnaround... Treating my out-of-town friends like visiting kings. Playing the dutiful, hard-working little Asian wife in any way she could conjure. Church every Sunday. If she went out with friends from the church, which was very rare, she called every hour to give me an update.

I didn't ask her to do these things - but that's what she knew had to be done in order to "tame" me into sticking around.

It didn't work, ultimately, but you get the point. If I have to go out of my way to shape her behavior, I'm setting the wrong precedent in the relationship. The real rule is, she shapes her behavior to do whatever it takes to keep me from walking.

If I'm the one trying to convince her to be something she's not, I will lose.

Most of my long-term relationships began with a woman all but begging for me to give her exclusivity. Sometimes with tears in their eyes. Any time I've been the one to start out that conversation, the power dynamic was dysfunctional before we even started and things didn't even get off the ground as a result or took ages to get on the right course.

I think to go the distance with this dynamic, she better know you're never above turning and walking away. One way I keep this in her mind is what I call the "disappearing act." If she's fucking up or even just trying to argue with me about things I don't want to argue about (I really can't stand distruption in my home), I walk outside, hop on my motorbike, and leave. It's not me fleeing - it's my way of saying, "I don't want to deal with this drama or bullshit. I don't want to 'talk.' I could just as easily go back to being me and being free. This is what that feels like."

I don't come back for hours - maybe I disappear into the countryside for a ride or maybe I head to the bar or club and come back in at the wee hours of the morning. I'm not hiding; I have fun with it. I enjoy myself. I may not come back until a day or two later if I'm irritated enough (the key is variance because you don't want it to be predictable). My phone is off.

She wants to throw a fit? No problem, out the door I go again. I can do this all week if I have to, Baby, though I'll probably run out of patience and just come home and pack my shit or kick her out eventually. Hey, you wanted a fight that bad, well, this is what happens when I fight - we break up.

This isn't just with (percieved) weaker Asian girls. In the states, I did the same thing but was usually driving a truck when I left instead of a motorbike. Girl starts giving me a hard time or fucking up, boom, I walk outside and drive away. Phone goes off or unanswered.

She goes silent back with her independent white woman attitude? No prob - give it a day or so and then book a trip to Hawaii with the boys. She'll come back around, and if not, you can consider yourself single and you're slurping up muff in a beachfront hotel in Maui. If she does come back around, well, you've booked a trip to Hawaii and she's not invited (sorry Babe, I thought I was single, and it's a guy's trip), and I guess she'll think next time before trying to give you a taste of your own medicine, won't she?

I remember being 19 or 20, living with an older woman (stole her from her husband), walking out on a fight, going to the bar. Booty calling an ex and then going home with pussy on my breath to bang the live-in. She knew exactly what was up and the memory of that night, in contrast to my typically agreeable nature, kept her in check for quite some time.

Another time a girlfriend was playing games. I had a business to run, but I was my own boss and had been needing a vacation. Next time I picked up the phone I was about eight hours north on my way to another state to go explore a city I'd never been to, spend a bunch of money, check out some real estate, and hit the local clubs. Took me about five days to decide to come home.

Can you imagine the welcome home party I got? What a sweetheart that girl was.

Maybe the average joe can't do this type of thing because he's got a job or kids or whatever. My only answer to that is you build the life you want to live, and if you don't have the option to disappear on a whim, well, you've got bigger problems than an untameable woman.

I do think there are plenty of other ways to play on these same dynamics, though. Obviously the way I do it is extreme, but the mentality is the same.

Taming might be a word that rings some alarm bells here, but a woman taming me doesn't mean she controls me or breaks me. It just means that she learns the only way to become enough of a priority for me to subdue my freewheeling nature is for her behave the way I like. Kind of like you tame a wild animal by feeding it delcious treats.

So that's exactly what she does. And the moment she stops is the moment she becomes a complete non-priority in my life.

Maybe some of this sounds like bullying and emotional warfare. Sure, it is in a way, but keep in mind that the vast majority of the time I am the most agreeable person she has probably dated. Just look up my videos on youtube where I'm with my ex and you can see every moment together is fun and play - I'm picking on her but like you would a kid sister that you love. So, when we keep the peace, life is happy and fun.

This only makes it more powerful because the faster she can get me back to that pleasant, cooperating version of me the more she stands to gain by falling back in step.

Remember, a woman only profits by settling in and domesticating, and even today, regardless of what I see said on the forum, I believe every part of her nature wants that. An undomesticated man just gets to be free, and while domesticating can benefit him in a lot of ways too, there's always that part of him that just wants to grab the open road and go.

Keep that in mind any time the power dynamic starts slipping off course. Because therein lies the key to bringing it back...if you even want to at that point because the alternative can be just as tempting.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #13

(12-17-2015 01:23 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  This whole idea is so bass-ackwards to me.
I don't hope to tame a woman; women hope to tame me
>>>>>>>>
Her desire is to tame me and turn me into a more domesticated version of myself - and part of me wants her to, knowing that my health and sanity depend on slowing down. So I let her do it if she plays by the rules.
>>>>>>>>
when I met my last girlfriend she was doing the whole catwalk model thing and working the rich guys in the clubs.
>>>>>>>>
By the time I left her, she was in our apartment teaching herself to cook by filling my belly with with constant three-course meals, even while holding down her job at the local ice cream shop.
>>>>>>>>
I didn't ask her to do these things - but that's what she knew had to be done in order to "tame" me into sticking around.
>>>>>>>>
If I'm the one trying to convince her to be something she's not, I will lose.
>>>>>>>>
"Most of my long-term relationships began with a woman all but begging for me to give her exclusivity. Sometimes with tears in their eyes. Any time I've been the one to start out that conversation, the power dynamic was dysfunctional before we even started and things didn't even get off the ground as a result or took ages to get on the right course."
>>>>>>>>
She wants to throw a fit? No problem, out the door I go again. I can do this all week if I have to...
>>>>>>>>
Another time a girlfriend was playing games. I had a business to run, but I was my own boss and had been needing a vacation. Next time I picked up the phone I was about eight hours north on my way to another state to go explore a city I'd never been to, spend a bunch of money, check out some real estate, and hit the local clubs. Took me about five days to decide to come home.
>>>>>>>>
Taming might be a word that rings some alarm bells here, but a woman taming me doesn't mean she controls me or breaks me. It just means that she learns the only way to become enough of a priority for me to subdue my freewheeling nature is for her to walk in step and behave the way I want her to. Kind of like you tame a wild animal by feeding it delcious treats.
>>>>>>>>
Remember, a woman only stands to gain by settling in and domesticating, and even today, regardless of what I see said on the forum, I believe every part of her nature wants that. An undomesticated man just gets to be free, and while domesticating can benefit him in a lot of ways too, there's always that part of him who just wants to grab the open road and go.

Fuck you, BB, I already repped you. Wish I could do it again.

One of the best posters on this site.

Post: #14

(12-17-2015 01:23 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  I think to go the distance with this dynamic, she better know you're never above turning and walking away. One way I keep this in her mind is what I call the "disappearing act." If she's fucking up or even just trying to argue with me about things I don't want to argue about (I really can't stand distruption in my home), I walk outside, hop on my motorbike, and leave. It's not me fleeing - it's my way of saying, "I don't want to deal with this drama or bullshit. I don't want to 'talk.' I could just as easily go back to being me and being free. This is what that feels like."

She wants to throw a fit? No problem, out the door I go again. I can do this all week if I have to, Baby, though I'll probably run out of patience and just come home and pack my shit or kick her out eventually. Hey, you wanted a fight that bad, well, this is what happens when I fight - we break up.

This works absolute wonders in my experience. It doesn't take more than a couple times of this usually before she realizes that you simply won't tolerate it and decides it's better to not even begin unless she wants to see you walking out the door, and possibly not returning.

Post: #15

^ Yeah, exactly. It's not like something you should have to do all the time, and if it is, the relationship isn't worth the trouble anyways. It's more like an occiasional "reset," and once the precedent is in place, an indifferent or cold silence, or a wordless departure for a quick errand, is enough to keep things in check when she gets goofy.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #16

Was about to cross-examine OP for not making sense, then saw BB's comment and left happy. These increasingly more common low quality threads somehow stimulate veterans to drop gold.

BB get back on the youtube grind! I really enjoyed your Cambodia videos.

Post: #17

[quote='MY DETROIT PLAYAS' pid='1172441' dateline='1450329958']

I think you made the post about it possibly being a totalitarian type setup, to be clear this is captain first mate, 60\40. If there is strife or mutiny that changes to 80\20 which brings comfort tests and discussion to bring it back to 60\40.

There are guys that wrap themselves up in being part of every decision and never letting her have a say. That is not only counter productive, it's idiotic. Where you're going to eat doesn't need to be a choice you lead on. What she wants to do for a day doesn't impact your ability to lead.

It really to me, comes down to knowing that you have that respect. That you give her all the leeway you can, all the ability to lead and live independently, but when you need to, you step in and that shouldn't be questioned.

Because as I've been saying, with kids, there's no time for leadership disputes. If you're away from the wheel she should take it, when you come back, there shouldn't be a question unless there is a crisis she's handling.

Otherwise, are you REALLY prepared to split?

Absolutely, you HAVE to. We know that's critical to sexual dynamics. The moment you aren't prepared to leave, mentally, she's got you and you're fucked. She depends on that to know that she has gets to have you, not that she has you.


I recall you starting your other thread alluding to your mastery when it came to the female persuasion, so what incentives are you giving her to encourage her complete submission?


I've upped the nuclear family game big time. I also focused on rewarding her with quality time when she brings her a-game and also been more overt about removing myself if she tries to play hands. I can see that stuff from a mile away so I just drop bombs on it and reinforce how much stronger things have become. Before kids there was lots of room for misbehavior or tantrums, lots of time to game. I miss that, I really do. Now you just have to quickly resolve conflict. That's why I think militant rank becomes much more important.

It becomes then less a discussion about whatever minutia is the topic or concern and whether or not you want to be discharged. And again, you've got to be prepared to leave.

Are you showing through your actions that you have her and the kids best interest at heart?

Absolutely. There are people that think you can dominate a woman and have your desires be the only priority. That may be possible, but I surmise that woman isn't worth that effort.

The way that I structure this, I overtly tell her, is that our family comes before us. And the obligation to that family is her submission and her unquestioned trust in me leading it. With that in place, it is my job to manage the relationship. Of which I have no problem doing that.

This isn't really a change over from follower to leader, this is a change from aloof leader to overt leader. It did require me digging into my balls and upping my game. I didn't really realize I had that much more in me until I faced down a reality where another man would be having my kids call them step dad. Fuck that.

You also mentioned being "at the helm" for the majority of the marriage, much to her dismay. Admittedly-dread game is much easier to employ as a single guy without kids, besides you can only use the nuclear option so many times without it losing it's effectiveness. Marriage is comparative to baseball; Every top pitcher should have more than one pitch to retire a batter. You can't just fling fastballs time after time and expect the same results. Likewise, you to have more than an iron fist when seeking compliance.

Yes, you're speaking of the "velvet hammer." Boundaries are one thing, but you need to be able to pilot most concerns with care. As you're saying, not everything can come down to shit or get off the pot. So you do take a knee if you have a neutral reaction to a shit test that is questioning your authority. Or even amused mastery if she bests you, I'll give her a round of applause and then a smack on the ass. That all still applies.

This is why the use of game techniques are strongly encouraged even when inside of the framework of a relationship. Even more so before you enter into the union itself. Sounds like a matter of trust; if she doesn't trust you to ably steer the ship, you will get resistance at every turn.

It wasn't that bad, but there was trust issues. I earned it back and I'll give you an insight into how I worked this out on our end.

Just got the new house and all that and she had gone into overdrive. Her main issue is anxiety, she is brilliant and high energy so she focused all that on the house. She got overworked with her career, kids etc. She started imploding.

We know how this goes though, it's your fault. Basically everything I was working on she would inject herself into. It was an attempt at mutiny. That aint happening.

The only thing that was on our fridge was our anniversary date coming up next month (this went up around september). That date signified whether or not she would be renewed. And the requirements where absolute trust and submission. I was willing to leave and she said it was over. That was fine with me.

We know how the next day went, she fell into line, but she still didn't trust me. And inch by inch I earned her total trust and prevented the mutiny. I smashed every door down that I had left alone the last 4 months. And our anniversary this year will be a literal solidifying of that construct.

Or is it that you just upset that you have been complicit in creating an environment, where there are two chefs in the kitchen with different ideas on how to prepare the same meal?


Not really, we're more or less on the same page with things. She's very smart, I don't know how well this would work if your wife was headstrong and stupid. That would be tough. But I mean it doesn't take much convincing to come to the logical solution with her. Her main hang up with that she is a woman and society has convinced her that she "don't need no man" all that. Not saying she's that person, but that stuff I think has poisoned nearly every woman, it's only a question of to what degree and how strong is your game?

[quote='Beyond Borders' pid='1172469' dateline='1450333408']
This whole idea is so bass-ackwards to me.

I don't hope to tame a woman; women hope to tame me. I'm the wildman, the catch. The second part may take a while to convince them of but they eventually figure it out.

I agree 100%, in the previous post this is mirrored in my respect for "the most responsible teenager in the house." However, what this entire post is about, is that I'm telling you from my perspective that this does not work anymore once you have kids.

It requires militant respect for those lines, you can't use that game as effectively anymore. Real dread can become too dangerous, you have to shift dread mechanics to the family.

Dread is still the woman you'd leave her for and start another family. But the main mechanic now is that your time is valuable and quality family time is the reward for her submission and bringing her a-game.

Because ultimately, family is a sacrifice you make as a man. You give up the male power fantasy. You give up control over your ultimate destiny and you put part of that in her hands. And this is about her thanking you for that, about recognizing the sacrifices you've made.

If she doesn't, then just like an "equal relationship" you've supplicated through a covert contract.

But as the poster above mentioned, if you don't know how to pilot the ship and reinforce what you bring to the table with your family, you're waiving a rotten carrot. I bring my a-game to the family. She just needs to bring her a-game to me.

Post: #18

(12-17-2015 09:45 AM)whatsayitboys Wrote:  I think you made the post about it possibly being a totalitarian type setup, to be clear this is captain first mate, 60\40. If there is strife or mutiny that changes to 80\20 which brings comfort tests and discussion to bring it back to 60\40.

There are guys that wrap themselves up in being part of every decision and never letting her have a say. That is not only counter productive, it's idiotic. Where you're going to eat doesn't need to be a choice you lead on. What she wants to do for a day doesn't impact your ability to lead.

Your limp-wristed approach may work, but I'll remind you that your grip is tenuous at best.

60/40? Captain/First Mate?

It's more like 85/15 and then 100/0 if there's issues. She should be supporting the plan/processes you have in place and executing her parts of them.

Where you're going to eat? Sure, she can choose sometimes, but the default should be you choosing and her providing input if she really doesn't like that choice or has something better to say, which is not often.

I still catch myself breaking the bad habit of asking a girl where she wants to eat instead of saying, "hey, let's go check out that Thai place" and her saying "ok" 90+ percent of the time and being happier for it.

It's not lead by concensus. It's LEAD, and take serious/worthy input/feedback under consideration.

Post: #19

Post: #20

(12-17-2015 09:45 AM)whatsayitboys Wrote:  

(12-17-2015 01:23 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  This whole idea is so bass-ackwards to me.

I don't hope to tame a woman; women hope to tame me. I'm the wildman, the catch. The second part may take a while to convince them of but they eventually figure it out.

I agree 100%, in the previous post this is mirrored in my respect for "the most responsible teenager in the house." However, what this entire post is about, is that I'm telling you from my perspective that this does not work anymore once you have kids.

It requires militant respect for those lines, you can't use that game as effectively anymore. Real dread can become too dangerous, you have to shift dread mechanics to the family.

Dread is still the woman you'd leave her for and start another family. But the main mechanic now is that your time is valuable and quality family time is the reward for her submission and bringing her a-game.

Because ultimately, family is a sacrifice you make as a man. You give up the male power fantasy. You give up control over your ultimate destiny and you put part of that in her hands. And this is about her thanking you for that, about recognizing the sacrifices you've made.

If she doesn't, then just like an "equal relationship" you've supplicated through a covert contract.

But as the poster above mentioned, if you don't know how to pilot the ship and reinforce what you bring to the table with your family, you're waiving a rotten carrot. I bring my a-game to the family. She just needs to bring her a-game to me.

Okay, yes, I will concede that what you're talking about is a whole different ballgame and perhaps something I'm not prepared to speak on. I've never been married. I've never had kids (though I have lived in a home with kids and played stepdaddy, so I at least now a little about the dynamic).

That being said, I will do my best to respond intelligently with my own thoughts.

For starters, it's not so much the specific tactics as it is the mentality, and all my friends I've seen be bullied and goaded and shriveled by their wives told themselves these same things about the responsibilities of a father.

In my opinion watching these train wrecks, even a family man has to value himself enough to be willing to split if he is not respected - if you look at the natural state of the world and the human animal, a man only stands to lose by staying, and if you don't make it clear you're not willing to go if she doesn't make the sacrifice worth it, I'm sorry, but you're giving up one of a man's main sources of power.

This is what leads to so many powerless married men in our society; not a need to be loved at all costs but a sense of obligation and responsibility that causes them to roll over and take it up the ass.

There's no way around the fact that she MUST see that she gains more from the relationship than you do; in our society, this often has to be more psychological, given the legal and financial advantages given to women, but fortunately women are very emotional beings and winning a psychological battle is not rocket science.

That feeling of doubt as she wonders what it would really be like if you got fed up - it's just as powerful if not moreso once you have a family. Women don't love the idea of being a single mom, you know - especially, AND THIS IS KEY (we'll return to it in a moment) if your home life is otherwise fucking peaches. And yes, splitting becomes more complicated with children, but it's always an option - ALWAYS. It has to be. And as soon as it isn't for you, well...

But the kids, the kids...

Look, your kids aren't going to grow up with some kind of special psychological problems just because daddy spent a night or two out of the house or went on a week vacation with the boys. Or even if you end up living in separate homes. But you're not up and leaving here; you're just owning it as a possibility and finding ways to make it clear it is an option on the table.

No one likes to think about breaking up their own family or even to give their woman that constant sense of "dread," but if you're not willing to do what it takes to have things your way than there's a word for the situation you're in, and it's called her having you by the balls.

Personally, I'd rather walk away and be a divorced dad in a fucking trailer.

If you can live with a woman having you by the balls because you're afraid to rock the boat and cause some in-home instability, well, enjoy, buddy. Homes are filled with people and are by definition unstable. You can protect your kids by nodding your head and shrugging shit off sometimes, but sometimes you sacrifice more by trying to keep the peace at the expense of maintaining a proper leadership structure under your roof.

Because it still comes down to the fact that if you see it your job to tame your woman rather than it hers to tame you, you've already lost the battle, my friend.. For a relationship to go the distance, this dynamic cannot disapear completely, ever.

Also, I may have given the wrong impression. I alluded to this in my post before, but maybe I glossed over it a bit in my effort to get the point across - so let me be clear: my own game is far from being purely dread game.

Not at all. There's another very powerful side of the coin.

Dread game doesn't work on its own. Ever. If you don't have a carrot at the end of your stick, your relationship is just an emotional roller coaster ride with no shits and giggles, and no woman wants that. You just become a man that can't be relied on and who is no fun, and she loses her faith in you because there's just no upside to the whole thing. Sorry, no woman puts up with all this for just anyone.

So, if you're just average Joe who brings nothing special to the table, what does she give a shit if you leave?

The difference is I'm the best thing that has ever happened to her.

Yes, I know this may sound like bragging or pretentiousness or whatever, but I assure you it isn't. I just know what I bring to the table, and it's not uncommon at all for women to tell me I'm the best thing that ever happened to them, even after we break up and even as much as 15 years after we've been apart.

Yes, I'm being serious. Other guys often look a lot better on paper, but in the end, my ability to connect is where I excel. Hell, I still stay in touch with some women from that long ago who were not much more than fuck buddies when it comes down to it.

What woman wants to lose a guy like that from her life? It's the dichotomy between these two states that lends a disappearing act it's real potency.

So the flip side of the dread game is meanwhile I'm inside her mind and emotions. I inspire her to be more. Make her think more. I make passionate love to her and get deep inside her head - I value her as a person. I tell her where we're going and why. And yes, I often let her make the decisions because you're right that this is something good leaders do (not to mention I could really give a shit about the small things most of the time).

Does this all sound like trying hard? This isn't work to me because I'm just a deeper, more genuine person already - an introvert who behaves like an extrovert out in public, so everything with me is either depth or fun.

Other guys have money. Many have way more game. Some are the coolest guys in the club. Or far better looking. But for me I just have a layered personality and the ability to engage with people on a deep, deep level once I decide they're worth the time.

So, what you've got is the situation where there's this amazing guy in her life who constantly surprises her, and he treats her Damn good and keeps life fun and interesting and will knock some idiot out if shit goes down, so he's security too...and suddenly he's willing to just turn and walk away on the drop of a dime just because she was acting like an idiot.

The fear that puts in a woman to know she could lose the greatest thing in her life, and all because of her own actions or her own ungratefulness or taking you for granted...well, that's greater than any false dread you could hope to create. After a while she learns not too rock the boat because it just isn't fucking worth it.

And I assure you my value in the household will be even greater when I'm a father. I live deeply - that's who I am. And I connect with kids just as much. So, when you're the leader, the life, the rock, the protector, the life of the fucking party...and she's depending on you to hold the family together and make your happy little interesting and orginal life possible, the worst thing in the world that could happen to her is you leaving, am I right?

Maybe that all sounds farfetched and romantacized, and sure I'm far from perfect. But I've made it a habit in my life to try to be something more than your average joe, and many people from different walks of life have told me I'm one of the deeper, more genuine people they've ever met.

If you're not that guy, well, there's nothing I can do about that - that's your problem, not mine.

Because not every guy can be that man. I know that, you know that. That's not my fault. The greatest men I've known are. And the ones that can't hack it all too often hand the power over to their women or split it down the middle as a result.

Life's not fair, is it?

So maybe the average guy is screwed. I don't know. I'm not the average guy and never plan to be, so I don't fucking care. What's going on in America is something men have done to themselves, so if you don't want to be a victim of it, you better start living life by your own unique sets of rules and standards...because your value as a man is not a birthright anymore (if it ever truly was).

In the end, we're all here to be better versions of ourselves - not average guys. For some guys, what that means is very different from what it means to me, but at the end of the day, all I can say is that in my experience this approach to life and relationships is what gives me the power I want.

That and the genuine willingness to split if things don't go my way.

Maybe for you it'll be something different. Who knows.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #21

BB, your recent posts have a certain cutting edge that gets down to the bone. It's really great stuff. For the readerships sake, I hope you're working on a new book. I'll even settle for some more blog posts. Strike while the iron is hot god damn it!

OP, consider yourself privileged to get such feedback on your inquiry from this man.

Post: #22

^ Thanks for the kind words.

I've been thinking about it - just can't decide what to write about.

Since you mention it in this thread, I should make it clear that I doubt it'll be anything about game or women, but if you've got suggestions about something you'd like to read, feel free to let me know.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #23

(12-19-2015 05:04 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  ^ Thanks for the kind words.

I've been thinking about it - just can't decide what to write about.

Since you mention it in this thread, I should make it clear that I doubt it'll be anything about game or women, but if you've got suggestions about something you'd like to read, feel free to let me know.

I think the market is open for more red pill fiction. I remember you said this in the Delicious Tacos thread.

I'm kind of sick of self-help/game non-fiction to be completely honest. After a certain point I feel like it's all just the same stuff with a different spin. I think if you could weave some good lessons into a story it would be a hit.

Delicious Taco's Tenga Easy Beat Egg story was the best thing I've read in recent memory.

For the OP:

You can't negotiate desire. You also can't negotiate passion, trust, commitment or anything else.

That's something she will give you out of free will or not at all.

It seems like your kids play heavily into this dynamic.

I haven't done a ton of thinking on this, but I remember how it was growing up.

My dad isn't a total alpha, but one thing he did right was making sure that he and mom were a unified front against the kids.

I don't know what kind of game my dad was running behind the scenes but it was always clear that mom's first responsibility was to him.

I remember going to church together and when it came time to give peace to everyone mom and dad would turn to embrace each other before us no matter what.

I could never understand why they did that and eventually I asked my mom and she told me, "your father and our relationship comes before you," or something to that effect.

I think that is an effective way to do it. I was a pretty rotten kid and I know I caused a lot of stress on their relationship but they kept it together.

I think what you are saying is that you told your wife that your family comes before your relationship.

Now I'm not going to tell you that is totally wrong and that you need to change it. I'm just telling you what I experienced as a kid. To me it would make logical sense that the relationship between the parents would be the foundation that the family is built upon.

Post: #24

I feel like the OP is trying to find the perfect square peg and then try to force it through a round hole.

This is an issue of compatibility, not training or control.

/endthread

Post: #25

This literally breaks down to 3 things:

Controling the frame
The game that got her is the game that keeps her
Never be afraid to lose her/walk away.