Post: #51

(06-02-2015 03:31 PM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

(06-02-2015 03:10 PM)RedGuard Wrote:  I'm a well-travelled man been to nearly 30 countries and I've never experienced such stuck up and rejecting women. I have a fair share of notches in my pocket and a decent ability of gaming pussy. Even though I'm going out regularly, the Swiss flag is still missing (to be honest, it's not even my goal). Even for my local alpha friends who actively try to educate themselves in terms of PU, success with Swiss girls is rare. If they pull some tail or only manage to make out, she's most likely from abroad or has an immigration background. Somehow it's a whole different dimension here and it seems like basic rules and patterns of female behaviour don't apply here or on a whole different and inexplicable level.

Many guys here are sexually dissatisfied and seek foreign girls or go abroad and import better girls. In my opinion, compared to Switzerland even Toronto is a pussy paradise.

RedGuard

I agree. Switzerland is the only country where I heard a 38 year old 5.7 "career" woman say that she still has lots of time to nab a millionaire and have kids. She was not concerned with the fact that she was single and past the wall.

No wonder women report it to be a great place. Leftover women start at 46 there now.

Sounds brutal. I've been to Switzerland but did not game. Only went for outdoorsy things and to the see the landscape. It is pretty incredible in this regard.

So assuming this list is the most sexually satisfied countries for women, what about for men? I'm assuming Phillipines, Thailand, Brazil, Colombia, some places in EE and perhaps Mexico would be on the list.

Post: #52

(06-02-2015 03:10 PM)RedGuard Wrote:  Speaking of Switzerland...

It's all nice to live here and travel around. Without exaggerating, we got some of the most beautiful and picturesque landscape and scenery here.
It's safe anywhere you go, anyone living here earns decent money (as far as they have a job) and the political stability can't be compared.

But when it comes to pussy... There's for sure not a single worse place on Earth. Seriously, It's the hell for young men looking to have a healthy dating and sex life. I would choose a goddamn Toronto club on King Street full of annoying feminists and a ratio of 1 girl for every 5 guys over hitting up any venues here anytime of the year.

I'm a well-travelled man been to nearly 30 countries and I've never experienced such stuck up and rejecting women. I have a fair share of notches in my pocket and a decent ability of gaming pussy. Even though I'm going out regularly, the Swiss flag is still missing (to be honest, it's not even my goal). Even for my local alpha friends who actively try to educate themselves in terms of PU, success with Swiss girls is rare. If they pull some tail or only manage to make out, she's most likely from abroad or has an immigration background. Somehow it's a whole different dimension here and it seems like basic rules and patterns of female behaviour don't apply here or on a whole different and inexplicable level.

Many guys here are sexually dissatisfied and seek foreign girls or go abroad and import better girls. In my opinion, compared to Switzerland even Toronto is a pussy paradise.

RedGuard

Totally agree, we should hook up sometime!, try some of the Romanian dating sites and Russian dating sites, there are plenty of young women coming to Switzerland and Germany each year doing seasonal work and hoping to play the "marriage game" and capture a rich Swiss husband. But be very careful of the new ruling that has just been put in place in Switzerland by the government.

It states that if you go on a one night stand as an unmarried man and get a girl pregnant , then you have to pay her child support. I heard of a colleague who got a girl pregnant after a one night fling, and had to pay her 1500chf a month because she wanted to keep the child, and you will be paying that until the child finishes university ... a good reason to get the snip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6MGyJis1oo

Post: #53

(05-24-2015 05:24 PM)solik Wrote:  "1. Switzerland - a country with massive gender imbalance rampant with tall good-looking well earning men (albeit many boring for thrill seeking women, but they have their pick). That place is terrible for men."

Best and most accurate description of Switzerland I have ever read. Paradise for women, HELL for men.
This country is totally overestimated worldwide.

So are the guys in neighbouring Austria just as thirsty, in that case?

Post: #54

I wanting to laugh really hard to see Switzerland had number one. I moved here to work in finance. The quality of life is great, the pay is great... And the greatest perk for me is travel opportunities... But yes, being single and looking for options in Switzerland is very depressing... I'm slightly depressed because of it as from Monday through Friday when I'm not travelling and I'm working, there's nothing to do after work. Even Swiss guys themselves "import" women from abroad to live here.

I'm at a big dilemma where I want to leave but my career is amazing, if I lost that though I would be back in the US in a second to live/work in NYC.

Post: #55

(10-18-2015 04:42 AM)Feldeinsamkeit Wrote:  

(05-24-2015 05:24 PM)solik Wrote:  "1. Switzerland - a country with massive gender imbalance rampant with tall good-looking well earning men (albeit many boring for thrill seeking women, but they have their pick). That place is terrible for men."

Best and most accurate description of Switzerland I have ever read. Paradise for women, HELL for men.
This country is totally overestimated worldwide.

So are the guys in neighbouring Austria just as thirsty, in that case?

It's much better in Austria - the gender balance is greatly improved with many Eastern European girls, Serbian etc. Also the men are not quite as tall and good-looking as in Switzerland. The Swiss notch wasn't that difficult to get some 15 years ago, but for now it has become a female cock-paradise where a slightly overweight 35 year old 5 can have her pick of tall good-looking Beta bucks and the occasional Alpha on the side. Also the high amount of high net worth locals and foreigners living there sucks the country dry of 8+ girls - many go to P4P and can reach 7 digits by the time they are 30. The US has a higher number of 8+ girls relative to the amount of rich men.

Switzerland is a great place to live, but you would need to import 500.000 Eastern European and Russian girls to make the place decent for men again.

Post: #56

(10-22-2015 12:10 PM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

(10-18-2015 04:42 AM)Feldeinsamkeit Wrote:  

(05-24-2015 05:24 PM)solik Wrote:  "1. Switzerland - a country with massive gender imbalance rampant with tall good-looking well earning men (albeit many boring for thrill seeking women, but they have their pick). That place is terrible for men."

Best and most accurate description of Switzerland I have ever read. Paradise for women, HELL for men.
This country is totally overestimated worldwide.

So are the guys in neighbouring Austria just as thirsty, in that case?

It's much better in Austria - the gender balance is greatly improved with many Eastern European girls, Serbian etc. Also the men are not quite as tall and good-looking as in Switzerland. The Swiss notch wasn't that difficult to get some 15 years ago, but for now it has become a female cock-paradise where a slightly overweight 35 year old 5 can have her pick of tall good-looking Beta bucks and the occasional Alpha on the side. Also the high amount of high net worth locals and foreigners living there sucks the country dry of 8+ girls - many go to P4P and can reach 7 digits by the time they are 30. The US has a higher number of 8+ girls relative to the amount of rich men.

Switzerland is a great place to live, but you would need to import 500.000 Eastern European and Russian girls to make the place decent for men again.

But Austrian women seem quite feminist and somewhat lacking in femininity in my experience and I've heard some people say that the thirst there is worse than in the UK. How would you rate Austrian women in comparison to British women? Is it generally easier to get laid in Austria than in the UK?

Post: #57

(10-22-2015 12:10 PM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

(10-18-2015 04:42 AM)Feldeinsamkeit Wrote:  

(05-24-2015 05:24 PM)solik Wrote:  "1. Switzerland - a country with massive gender imbalance rampant with tall good-looking well earning men (albeit many boring for thrill seeking women, but they have their pick). That place is terrible for men."

Best and most accurate description of Switzerland I have ever read. Paradise for women, HELL for men.
This country is totally overestimated worldwide.

So are the guys in neighbouring Austria just as thirsty, in that case?

It's much better in Austria - the gender balance is greatly improved with many Eastern European girls, Serbian etc. Also the men are not quite as tall and good-looking as in Switzerland. The Swiss notch wasn't that difficult to get some 15 years ago, but for now it has become a female cock-paradise where a slightly overweight 35 year old 5 can have her pick of tall good-looking Beta bucks and the occasional Alpha on the side. Also the high amount of high net worth locals and foreigners living there sucks the country dry of 8+ girls - many go to P4P and can reach 7 digits by the time they are 30. The US has a higher number of 8+ girls relative to the amount of rich men.

Switzerland is a great place to live, but you would need to import 500.000 Eastern European and Russian girls to make the place decent for men again.

But Austrian women seem quite feminist and somewhat lacking in femininity in my experience and I've heard some people say that the male thirst in Austria is worse than in the UK. How would you rate Austrian women in comparison to British women? Is it generally easier to get laid in Austria than in the UK?

Post: #58

(10-22-2015 03:36 PM)Feldeinsamkeit Wrote:  But Austrian women seem quite feminist and somewhat lacking in femininity in my experience and I've heard some people say that the male thirst in Austria is worse than in the UK. How would you rate Austrian women in comparison to British women? Is it generally easier to get laid in Austria than in the UK?

Severe male thirst in Austria, where would you even get that from.

It´s not a hookup culture like in Anglo countries and people get laid through their social circles mostly and then stay together in a relationship fairly long.
It usually takes longer to get the lay and girls are a bit more conservative and watch their reputation. In Vienna with the anonymity of a large city and a big student population it´s a bit better though.

If you ask Austrian girls if they are feminists, most will say yes, but they don´t act that way and aren´t even close to the fucked up delusions of Anglo chicks.

Lacking in feminity, perhaps, I would put them around the same level as German girls, a bit more relaxed and warm maybe. Quite rational, logical thinking.
Don´t expect Latin levels of passion or Slavic romanticism, but there are lots of decent, sweet girls around. Huge influx of Eastern European girls too, so if Austrian girls are not your thing, enough other options are available.

I don´t have too much experience with British women, so I can´t really compare. They seem to be pretty terrible though from what I´ve heard and seen, so Austrian girls should easily be an upgrade.

It´s harder to get laid in Austria than in the UK, I feel confident in saying that.

Post: #59

So who are the Swiss girls fucking? Is it basically super tight social circle, and they will only give the time of day to people they went to school with? Guessing they aren't so bad when on vacation, but sure doesn't help when you're in Switzerland.

Post: #60

Vienna is fine if you don't adhere to the tough 18-24 demographic. There is a ton of carousel riders up to age 35, but you definitely should have solid Game and you need to approach. Especially Daygame is lethal there since no one is doing it.

Thirst is deep because the overwhelming male population is doing either online dating, hoping for social circle or going to clubs in order to stand around with their drinks. The few approaching men with massive Game clean up.

Like Celtic said - it's tougher in other areas since girls even today marry relatively young in smaller towns. That does not mean however that Daygame does not work. Again - it's something they probably never experienced when it's done well.

Germany is also surprisingly easy especially via Daygame. Of course quality wise it's 1.5 to 2 points lower than Hungary, Czech Republic or Poland due to more fattening. Austria strangely has improved somewhat in recent years since the number of promiscuous carousel riding girls has risen dramatically - they moved closer to Scandinavian territory.

Thirst however is massive and of course the gender ratio while not at Swiss levels is nowhere near Eastern European countries.

Post: #61

(10-22-2015 04:32 PM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  Vienna is fine if you don't adhere to the tough 18-24 demographic. There is a ton of carousel riders up to age 35, but you definitely should have solid Game and you need to approach. Especially Daygame is lethal there since no one is doing it.

Thirst is deep because the overwhelming male population is doing either online dating, hoping for social circle or going to clubs in order to stand around with their drinks. The few approaching men with massive Game clean up.

Like Celtic said - it's tougher in other areas since girls even today marry relatively young in smaller towns. That does not mean however that Daygame does not work. Again - it's something they probably never experienced when it's done well.

Germany is also surprisingly easy especially via Daygame. Of course quality wise it's 1.5 to 2 points lower than Hungary, Czech Republic or Poland due to more fattening. Austria strangely has improved somewhat in recent years since the number of promiscuous carousel riding girls has risen dramatically - they moved closer to Scandinavian territory.

Thirst however is massive and of course the gender ratio while not at Swiss levels is nowhere near Eastern European countries.

What I don't understand is the origin of the extreme thirst in the Anglosphere. I used to think it had to do with there being many more men than women in the population, but I've compared sex ratios in the 18-40 age bracket between the US, UK, Czech Republic and Poland and they are more or less the same, so what gives? Why, if there are roughly the same ratio of men to women in the fertile age range, are Anglo men so insanely thirsty in comparison to other countries in central and eastern Europe? I've thought about it possibly having something to do with there being more slimmer women in eastern Europe relative to, e.g., the UK, but the obesity rate in Czech Republic is these days almost the same as in the UK, so that can't explain it, or am I missing a trick here?

Post: #62

In Fortaleza, Brazil my balls are well drained. The quality is somewhat mediocre. Brazil is not getting any better, though the women are still some of the best at satisfying or even hanging out.

Post: #63

(10-22-2015 06:31 PM)Feldeinsamkeit Wrote:  What I don't understand is the origin of the extreme thirst in the Anglosphere. I used to think it had to do with there being many more men than women in the population, but I've compared sex ratios in the 18-40 age bracket between the US, UK, Czech Republic and Poland and they are more or less the same, so what gives? Why, if there are roughly the same ratio of men to women in the fertile age range, are Anglo men so insanely thirsty in comparison to other countries in central and eastern Europe? I've thought about it possibly having something to do with there being more slimmer women in eastern Europe relative to, e.g., the UK, but the obesity rate in Czech Republic is these days almost the same as in the UK, so that can't explain it, or am I missing a trick here?

No way in living hell man!!!! First of all you have to look at the gender ratio between 18-30 and not 40. The pendulum after 35 swings in our favor, but who cares about that shit?

Second in addition to the OECD numbers you have to add the huge number of migrants in the West. The gender ratios in the US are sometimes 2 or 3 to 1 in the age group of 18-30. That means that there are 2 times as many men than women in many US cities!

There is no city in Poland or Czech anywhere which has crappy ratios like that!

Also the statistics leave out the male migrants to a great degree. It takes years before they get citizenship and the governments simply leave them out of the official numbers. In my opinion there is a 5-20% overhang of men in the hot age group in all Western countries. It's worse than China in most big cities.

You can instantly feel and see the difference as soon as you move to Eastern Europe. You see young feeble looking Beta nerds coupled with cute girls as if there was no tomorrow. Only very Beta-ish men have trouble finding girls here.

Also the obesity numbers are highly misleading. Again they fuck it up via counting all ages into it. Who cares if 40+ women in Poland or Czech are overweight? The young ones are by far less and they matter! The same goes for countries like Italy which claim high obesity rates - yeah among the 45+ crowd of women that is true, but those women are married and at home. The young ones are pretty slim.

So no - from worst to best in terms of gender ratio:

US
UK
Czech Republic
Poland (Czech almost equal frankly)

When I analysed the official government data it was clear that someone was busy masking things. Some countries do not even publish the 18-30 gender ratio, because otherwise men would find out how shitty things are. Some assholes just show the 18-60 gender ratio! Yeah - gimme some 55 year old pussy. And they certainly won't add the 5-10% of male migrants to the mix (only part of them being quasi homeless dudes - plenty in the top or living in the country for years, but just not having gotten the citizenship - they are your competition that the OECD does not even register - but your dating life experience does notice that!).

Post: #64

There's also vast cultural differences. I find people from the anglosphere to be very try hard in general. There's an arms race when it comes to anglo men pumping themselves up, twattish personalities, etc.. anglo women also have this chip on their shoulder where being an obnoxious cunt is rewarded by society.

I hung out with an assorted group of mainland europeans not too long ago mixed gender but mostly French with a few Germans thrown in and one Japanese dude. Everyone was just remarkably chilled out and classy. There was no posturing or guys trying to ego pump.

Get a big group of anglosphere guys together and you tend to see much more asshole type behavior with guys/girls trying to one up each other. Not everyone of course but there's usually always at least a couple of dickheads in every pack.

Post: #65

(10-23-2015 06:13 AM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  There's also vast cultural differences. I find people from the anglosphere to be very try hard in general. There's an arms race when it comes to anglo men pumping themselves up, twattish personalities, etc.. anglo women also have this chip on their shoulder where being an obnoxious cunt is rewarded by society.

I hung out with an assorted group of mainland europeans not too long ago mixed gender but mostly French with a few Germans thrown in and one Japanese dude. Everyone was just remarkably chilled out and classy. There was no posturing or guys trying to ego pump.

Get a big group of anglosphere guys together and you tend to see much more asshole type behavior with guys/girls trying to one up each other. Not everyone of course but there's usually always at least a couple of dickheads in every pack.

This observation is right on the money and is something that only really hit home for me after I had been living in Germany for some time. In fact, even my German ex commented on this at times. I remember when I was walking into a doctor's practice one day with her and she commented how a couple of young women coming towards her must be foreign (they were white, European looking and indistinguishable apart from the language they were speaking, which sounded Polish). When I asked her how she knew this, she said that their posture gave it away, in that they did not arrogantly flick their heads away like English women and simply behaved in a relaxed and non-affected manner.

As to the big-yourself-up up arms race between men, yes, it's very pronounced in my neck of the woods - i.e. north east England - and expresses itself in ever more young guys needing to speed around in a BMW or SUV on credit and act like the hard men that they are not in order to impress an ever more entitled and cuntish, not to mention burgeoning, female population. You only need to hit the town on any weekend in the UK, especially in England in order to see this posturing at its best.

Post: #66

Those attitudes and the arms race is the result of crazy gender ratio that dwarfs the imbalance in China by far. It's much worse if you add the fattening and migrants to the statistics.

For example NYC is a place where men are in the minority and voila - instantly women are much more approachable.

Worst places: Canada / Toronto, Australia, USA
UK also bad - probably on level of Switzerland or slightly better
Germany, France much better
Best Western country in terms of gender ratios: Finland - you can get laid easier in Finland than in Poland, but it's a small country, so the balance can tip quickly.

Post: #67

(10-23-2015 06:41 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  For example NYC is a place where men are in the minority and voila - instantly women are much more approachable.

Hate to nitpick but this isn't true. There are NOT more women than men in New York in the coveted 18-30 demographic.

There was official data to back this up in another thread. Maybe in the richest neighborhood young females are slightly dominant, but for the city overall its not true. I will admit NYC does have the best ratio of any US city and it helps, it just gives you a glimpse of what a sane/normal ratio should be.

With the exception of a select few southern(higher obesity likely) college towns there is NO place in the US with a female surplus in the important age range. Kinda puts all the thirst, homosexuality and beta behavior in perspective.

Not making excuses but even if we completely eliminated the effects of modern technology, our fathers never experienced ratios anywhere near this bad. They had good ratios in their 20s and as they aged great ratios in their 40s and now in 50s and 60s if they enjoy banging old pussy should be drenched in it.

Post: #68

OK - you are right - Manhattan is an area with some other localized ones. Entire NYC is of course not. Still there is a remarkable change in attitudes just by that fact alone.

Post: #69

Is the # for LA correct?

If it is, it would mean 1.6% extra single men which is nothing. How recent is that because i remember reading something years ago where the gap was much higher. With the recent techboom in LA the numbers couldn't have gotten better.

Considering the amount of gay men > lesbians then that number really favors us.

Post: #70

(10-23-2015 01:52 PM)azulsombra Wrote:  

(10-23-2015 06:41 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  For example NYC is a place where men are in the minority and voila - instantly women are much more approachable.

Not making excuses but even if we completely eliminated the effects of modern technology, our fathers never experienced ratios anywhere near this bad. They had good ratios in their 20s and as they aged great ratios in their 40s and now in 50s and 60s if they enjoy banging old pussy should be drenched in it.

The overall U.S. population growth is often understated and of course the lopsided gender ratio isn't ever reported in the mainstream media or the government. If they do report on it it's usually some very low key study and in very general terms such as grouping 18-50 year old women together. I'm not exactly sure if this is done purposely to conceal the situation but it's looking more and more likely that that is exactly what they are trying to do. Hasn't anyone ever found it odd that SJW aligned sociologists in these ivory tower institutions haven't done a more thorough study of this but yet they'll point at China and India's ratio all the time?

Here's another interesting population stat..back in the early 1970's there was only around 190 million people living in the U.S.

Today in 2015 that number is 319 million. That's an increase of roughly 130 million people in 45 years.

I don't believe the U.S. birth rate has boomed tremendously in the 70's either.

So the theory that it's mostly male immigrants (legal and illegal) from south of the border and other places creating a sausage fest is pretty solid.

Look at the thirsty sausage fest that is silicon valley..imagine that demographic replicated in most u.s. cities in the future. That is probably what most of the U.S. will look like in 20 years time. Except in areas where there's no industry it will be even more desperate and with high unemployment and high crime to boot.

Post: #71

(10-23-2015 04:05 PM)8ball Wrote:  Is the # for LA correct?

If it is, it would mean 1.6% extra single men which is nothing. How recent is that because i remember reading something years ago where the gap was much higher. With the recent techboom in LA the numbers couldn't have gotten better.

Considering the amount of gay men > lesbians then that number really favors us.

Those figures aren't entirely accurate because a lot of illegals, foreign students, h1b visa types etc.. are not calculated into the overall population figures. All these pop. stats are a rough guide and in reality it's probably much worse than even what the figures indicate.

I know that everytime I go to L.A. I see swarms of dudes hanging out everywhere. Not many girls around period. It's not unusual for me to see a pack of 5 young guys and 1 girl. The difference between L.A. and any big city in SE Asia is stark to me where you see lots of young girls hanging out everywhere.

Post: #72

(10-23-2015 04:05 PM)8ball Wrote:  Considering the amount of gay men > lesbians then that number really favors us.

This argument doesn't hold much weight, sure there are more men that publicly identify as gay because in our society a man that bangs one man is considered gay. But the number of women who have been in relationships with or continually "hook up" with girls and don't identify as a lesbian per se is quite high and growing, especially in 18-30, especially on the west coast.

So some of these women that are "straight", poly or however they want to define it that week are taking a break from men and are effectively off the table. Therefore the dudes hooking up with dudes and chicks hooking up with chicks effectively cancel each other, despite the latter being less likely to identify as gay.

In a nutshell, there are nowhere near enough gay dudes to even put a dent in the gender disparities. Don't believe me. Roll through a straight club in Man Diego, Man Francisco or LA.

Post: #73

Interesting. The way I'm synthesizing this conversation is --

Prospects are bad for men in the Anglosphere, first, because the Anglosphere is so wealthy. It's hard to deny this, given the legacy of British Colonialism, America's continued economic dominance ... English is the language of business, people around the world seeking to better their economic conditions look to learn English.

Men are more likely to migrate in pursuit of improving their financial conditions than women. Men are generally more adventure-seeking, they are also more evaluated on their ability to provide. Women are less likely to migrate because they have traditionally tended to be more closely linked to family. They also face greater risk of exploitation when they stray far from home.

Because the Anglosphere collects wealth, and attracts men who are willing to be aggressive and take risks to acquire it, competition is greater. The local women are beneficiaries of this. Due to scarcity, their SMV is inflated. This means the thirst among men is increased.

Someone in an earlier post remarked that the thirst is very strong in financial centers. This could explain why.

It can also explain to a degree the exceptions mentioned: NYC, Frankfurt, Hong Kong, Singapore.

NYC has a rare concentration of industries that have a greater proportion of women -- media, advertising, fashion, entertainment -- although the prospect of growth in these industries is not very good.

Frankfurt has a huge P4P scene that may allay some of the thirst.

Hong Kong and Singapore I'm not that familiar with, but I know there is a P4P scene in these cities as well. I also suspect Asian women are a little more at ease with economic migration than other ethnicities are. There's less machismo and therefore lower risk of sexual violence when women stray from home.

This dynamic can probably also explain why San Francisco and Toronto are so barren. These are areas full of men pursuing wealth.

It can also explain to a degree why some hunting grounds are better than others. I've heard a lot of praise for Eastern Europe and in the U.S., Appalachia.

Your own SMV goes up in these areas not just because you're a novelty and potentially wealthier than the locals, but because the SMV of the local women is artificially suppressed, due to the fact that the higher SMV men have left.

Of course, economic migrants tend to be a small part of any population, so this can't explain it all. I think what may also happen is that even without migration, if the men have the option of moving on and the women don't, the men who stay don't feel the need to up their game.

The dynamic can run the other way. I remember reading an article about factory towns in China that are female dominated, and male SMV being artificially inflated there.

I'm running through other counterarguments in my mind. Russia isn't supposed to be great, but I suspect this is more because most people's experience is with large cities which attract the male and ambitious. Maybe smaller towns would be better.

The Middle East and the Subcontinent don't attract economic migrants, and are in many respects economically depressed, yet I haven't heard of these places being great hunting grounds. I suspect culture skews the demand curve in these areas. Even if you have a woman whose high SMV is being suppressed, she has no way of unlocking that value if there is no way for anyone to meet her outside of family.

So, you need a bit of chauvinism to have an advantage away from the Anglosphere, but not too much. It's just my personal experience, but I've been pretty impressed by the less traditional girls I've known from those places that are made thirsty by tradition rather than competition. Maybe these are the places that will be tomorrow's best hunting grounds.