Post: #1

I was interested to hear stories of people changing their minds on things. Skip to the end for the question.

The great Max Planck once said:

Quote:A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.

Really it's impossible to comprehend the behaviour of mankind without knowing this rule. Beliefs often become part of people's identity, and losing them becomes akin to losing a limb.

Under this rule, argumentation between older people serves no intellectual purpose for themselves. Neither will change their beliefs under any circumstances. Extreme examples can go as far as people continuing to believe something even after it's been proven a hoax ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True-believer_syndrome ).

The purpose of these arguments is only for onlooking younger people. They listen to the arguments of their elders and draw their own conclusions. This then forms their beliefs, which then start the same calcification process.

This also explains the arrogance of teens: largely a self-defense mechanism to send them into the 'market of ideas', versus just accepting the calcified ideas of their parents and teachers, arrogantly issued themselves under the false claim that "old age means wisdom".

My opinion is that this effect stems from limited mental capacity. Every man only has so much mental strength and energy, and it is costly and burdensome to be constantly re-evaluating your beliefs in the face of new information. To a weak mind it would be completely paralyzing - there would be no energy left to make conclusions and take action. Hence he must accept what beliefs he has and roll with them, no matter how flimsy. Even to a strong mind - the effort involved in rewiring a foundation-level belief that was incorrectly set 10 years ago, is so large that it can be too painful to stomach it.

This is why I really enjoy seeing newbies coming to this forum, asking every manner of questions with an open mind. These are young men who were destined to absorb the toxic ideas of their parents, their teachers, or their politicians, and instead let their questions run free - so they could come to their own conclusions with the best insight they could find. Of course you do see the odd older guy here and there, generally prompted by a severe setback that forced them to re-evaluate their beliefs from scratch. I'm guessing it's less than 1 in 100 that do that though - all of the old failures I meet are full of reasons why it was everyone else's fault but theirs.

So my question is: what beliefs have you changed in the past? What caused you to change those beliefs, and how long did the process take? Were any of the beliefs deeply held?

For me some were:
- Belief that abortion was moral. Was firmly held. Reversed slowly due to some premises being challenged (what truly identifies a 'person'). I remember it going through a process of 'firmly held -> uncomfortably challenged -> held, but no longer firmly -> no belief either way (i.e. confusion) -> open re-consideration of the topic -> belief against
- Belief that fractional-reserve banking was immoral or damaging to civilization, mostly due to some lectures by Austrian economists (who I generally respect). Probably the most interesting reversal: I made an anti fractional-reserve banking comment on a YouTube video. Someone responded with an argument that challenged one of my premises, but I argued back without budging. This however ultimately sowed a seed - as I couldn't reconcile my belief with his unfalsifiable argument ("bank deposits are IOUs, not bailments"). This slowly caused my belief on that topic to collapse, and then to be reconstructed, leading to a reversal in about 3 months.
- Belief in god as a child, which ended but was followed with a belief in the supernatural generally, and then finally with no supernatural beliefs by my mid-teens. I think the change was motivated partly by trying to reconcile the things religious teachers and the bible were saying with the real world, and partly due to a big science book I had as a kid. It was equally important looking to my bible (one of those big shiny ones with gold coating etc), but its contents were far more expansive, illustrated, and coherent, which ultimately gave me more respect for the philosophy of 'truth by observations' versus 'truth by dictate'.

This topic could make for valuable discussion, as better understanding of this process would allow us to better focus our efforts and hone our tactics, when going against mild SJWs or white knights etc.

Post: #2

1.

I use to think you get women by being extroverted and saying all the right things.

Now

I think they key is to be introverted and to speak with your eyes. What you say isn’t even important.. It’s how you smile at them, kiss them, and touch them. You can have conversations all day long with random women without even speaking.
-

2.

I use to think the most important part of a date is at the end when you try to pull them back home.

Now

The most important part of the date is the first 60 seconds. It sets the tone for the whole date, how things are going to play out, your intentions, and also how you feel.

Be aggressive, be affectionate, be happy.

-

3.

I use to think maybe I was here because I hated women.

Now

I know I’m here because I love women too much.

-

4.

I used to see the glass half-full

After war I saw the glass half-empty.

Now

I just drink whiskey straight from the fucking bottle. I don't have to look at anymore glasses.


5.

I used to think PUA were full of shit.

now

I still do.

Post: #3

I was a democrat/liberal. Now I am a republican.

I use to believe socialism/government was the answer to our solutions. I believe in Free Markets and technology as the solution.

In the face of new evidence, I have found myself accepting new ideas. However, it has to be tied in with the basics or demonstrate some sort of esoteric and/or conditional property.

We need also realize people need to feel that are not wrong than know the truth. An important component to knowing the truth is to accept that you can be wrong.

I use to have a traditional idea about women needing protection being true. But considering modern society I gave it up. I also rejected a lot of ideas about feminism early on because it contradicted many things also taught to me. It is hard to claim oppression from Patriarchy when Women have already made strides early on.

When I was in my early 20's, I was a hard line libertarian because of the Chicago School and the Austrian School of Economics. Then I took a course in Marxism(from an economist, not a political activist). Now I see schools of thoughts as tool sets for the mind.

Post: #4

I used to consider myself a feminist

Then I discovered the manosphere.

Didn't believe much of it at first but then it started to explain the world around me better than anything else so I couldn't stop reading. Took about a year of trying to mentally poke holes in a lot of the ideas before I finally accepted most of them as truth

Post: #5

I used to be a libtard. Then my balls dropped.

Post: #6

I used to let my life be dictated by an overruling sense of nihilism.

Post: #7

(10-02-2015 01:42 PM)LINUX Wrote:  2.

I use to think the most important part of a date is at the end when you try to pull them back home.

Now

The most important part of the date is the first 60 seconds. It sets the tone for the whole date, how things are going to play out, your intentions, and also how you feel.

Be aggressive, be affectionate, be happy.

Post: #8

I used to think wealth was the most important factor in attracting girls but damn I was wrong, fast forward to my college freshman year, I had a brand new BMW 320d ( mind you this car cost $60k in a country where the gdp per capita was $10k, so basically its like driving around in a 911 in the states.

I also had a very hip condo in a nice part of town, the rent alone was 1000$, this is what a civil servant made in that city.

Was I succesful with women? I got couple of drunk lays a year here and there but I knew I wasnt living up to my potential, then I got introduced to manosphere while researching about game, mystery method etc.

Fast forward 3 years later, I dont have that fancy car anymore, the fancy pad is gone since I graduated from college, but I got north of 50 notches in the last 2 years alone.... None of them were P4P.
I revamped my game completely, I never tell girls I come from a well off family, the minute they sense I'm well off they start to see me as a potential LTR/Beta Provider.....

I love this forum because people are realistic here, no one will tell you that you will get laid as a fat fuck if you have game, you have to be fit, you have to have some type of sexual appeal, people here are well aware of this unlike in the other hopeless forums......

One thing I know for sure, you dont have to rich or well off to bang girls, as long as you look good and have game you will bang girls even if you're homeless.

Post: #9

Everything

Post: #10

(10-02-2015 11:50 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  So my question is: what beliefs have you changed in the past? What caused you to change those beliefs, and how long did the process take? Were any of the beliefs deeply held?

I think the most fundamental change for me has come in the form of a shift from left-wing to right-wing mentality. I have for my entire life been very left-leaning in my views on many topics; there was simply no questioning that it was the most sensible approach.

And that was the problem, at no point did I stop and question it. The indoctrination of the youth into a leftist mentality is so heavily ingrained and powerful because it appeals to that rebellious nature of young people to challenge tradition and embrace progression, and for many they believe their 'fighting the good fight' when in reality there been manipulated into furthering the agenda of vested interests. I believe there's always room for progression, but it should not be at the cost of everything before it.. the best change incorporates and integrates learned lesson's from the past.

I think this is what spun me out the most, and perhaps my shift to a more right-wing perspective is simply out of a sense of self-preservation in a culture and society which is slowly castrating itself.

When you have people like Vladislav Surkov in power and im sure the West has their equivalent it forces one to take a more investigative approach to the over-arching reason's behind world, political and social events.

Post: #11

Many things. Too many to count.

I actually do consider myself someone who can be reasoned with. I'm not as open to that as I used to be simply because most people aren't pursuing an objective truth, they simply want more allies to further their agends for them.

I changed my views on women by reading RVF. I must also say that I've become more conservative with time as well, which I thought would never happen.

Post: #12

is this not the same as cognitive dissonance?

The more you are invested in a certain belief system, teh greater power differential it takes to overcome tjat belief?

For me? I guess the classic example is of a beta mindset that changed into a more red pill mindset because of some "defining" event in his life that includes a major life change like divorce rape or a cheating girlfriend and ecposire to red pill beliefs.

Post: #13

Some good examples, but can you recall the things that changed your mind? Was there a particular event that sowed the seeds of doubt? Which ones were fast changes and which were slow changes?

Post: #14

One of the lessons that can be learned from this thread -- and from following posters on a forum like this over a longish period of time -- is that men that are passionate and enthusiasts by nature will replace beliefs that they cherish, and imagine to be fundamental, with surprising speed and violence.

Furthermore, men who have undergone this process once never think it can happen again; in their enthusiasm, they feel that their current set of beliefs is permanent, because it has struck them with the force of revelation and seemed to explain and pull together so many phenomena that had appeared disparate and unrelated. They know that they have arrived at their destination, and can now survey the landscape from a vantage point that allows them to see behind mere appearances, and into things as they really are.

But the likelihood is great that for many of these men, the current set of beliefs is far from final, and the process of shedding them almost wholesale and acquiring new ones will be repeated. Indeed, I am convinced that some of the most passionately ideological and doctrine-besotted posters on this forum have another conversion or two in their futures. What had to seemed to go to the very core of one's worldview will be discarded almost overnight, like a spent battery that had once powered some loud device which is no longer in use.

The reason that the conversion process is quite likely to repeat itself is that it is precisely the need for belief of some kind, almost any kind, that drives the process far more than the content of the ideas themselves. These ideas and frameworks, so cherished at the moment of revelation and acceptance, are far more fungible than they seem; they are really the temporizing of intelligent and enthusiastic men who struggle to understand the world in all its complexity, and who know only that the socially condoned and dominant ideology of the time cannot help them. They alight on some pattern, some framework, that seems to impose order on the apparent chaos; they cling to it with great conviction; but as the ideological framework reveals itself, over time, to be a good deal less than adequate, they will eventually discard it in favor of a new one which seems to be more persuasive and meets the needs of the day.

It is precisely because the infallible ideas of today will so often, for enthusiastic and yearning men, become the discarded illusions of tomorrow that it's so important for men to be open to the world as it is, to find a way to engage it with a modest attentiveness that is not entirely blighted and evacuated by any fundamentally reductive ideology. Otherwise, a man will lose the world -- and all because of a set of beliefs and ideas that had seemed to fit well at the time, but that proved far too thin and threadbare a garment to survive the surprisingly long and various journey that life amounts to.

Post: #15

^ Jesus man, you a poet?

Post: #16

I honestly used to believe the world used to be black and white. That there were no colors and at some point in time someone invented a color machine which gave everything color. Or something happened which turned the world into color. I didn't think much about how exactly, I just believed it because there was no other explanation.

When I was around 14 and yet another history theme was introduced which didn't involve the transition from black-white to color, I stood up in class and asked out loud "Why are we never being taught about the pre-color era and the transition into color? It is not in any history book we've had, yet at some point in time, pictures have color in them.". It is not that I wanted to know what happened, just why we weren't being told. Like it is some sort taboo.

It was silent for a few seconds and then everyone turned into laughter. It took me around 14 years to finally learn about how it had nothing to do with some magic event but with the evolution of cameras. I felt so stupid and was ridiculed for it during the rest of high school.

So yeah, some beliefs are simply due to non-existing knowledge about the facts. Ever since, I have double checked my belief system before I stood up and made some wild statement.

Post: #17

(10-03-2015 11:05 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  ^ Jesus man, you a poet?

One of the best to ever grace the forum.

We need some kind of RVF Hall of Fame. Posters become eligible after a certain number of time/posts/reps and then get voted in. That would be cool.

Post: #18

I used to believe that you could change someone else's mind if you had the facts, a good argument, patience, and good will.

Then I was a political activist for a year. The guy with the clipboard in front of the library. Who you hope won't notice you when you walk by.

I had thousands of conversations with all different kinds of people about one issue. Over that time I learned how to speak clearly, simply, and guide other people away from personal attacks, and back to the subject. And I learned how not to be derailed, and how to be calm when someone was yelling in my face and threatening violence.

Eventually I had an answer for everything, and my arguments were rock solid. I had a one minute version of my views, a five minute version, a half hour version and an hour version.

I knew what other people's likely objections were to be, so I started organizing my basic position so that it overcame all these objections as I was presenting it, meaning that by the time I was done talking, I had likely already dealt with whatever they were going to say before they said it. So they would have to come up with something new to contradict me.

And after all that work, and all those conversations, not one person that I met said, "Wow, this is true, how do I help?"

People said things like, "You're probably right," and just walked away. Or signed the petition just to get away from me.

The only people who were remotely enthusiastic about the issue were people who had chosen to look into it on their own before talking to me. They didn't offer to help, mind you, but only said, "Glad there are people out there doing what you are doing, I wrote a term paper about this."

And I realized that those people were just like me. Because until I had decided that I wanted to give something back at least somewhat to society, and went out and found an issue I believed in, I probably wouldn't have changed my mind because I talked with some random person on the street either.

So while I used to believe that you could reason people into changing their minds, now I don't. Now I think each person has to make that decision for themselves. I still debate and share what I know with people, it's just that now after I say what I have to say, I leave them alone.

I also now realize that many of people's beliefs are formed in a cauldron of upbringing, emotion, and convenience. The rational part is something they tacked on after to make it sound good. So I don't press once I have said what I have to say.

It just makes people crazy. You get to see denial close up. You can almost see their eyes click when they shift from the rational to the death struggle defense of beliefs they have never thought through, but only internalized. Denial. Jung's theory of "the shadow," whatever you want to call it. It makes people flip out, and conversations go round and round in circles, finally devolving into tears, threats, blows.

Although people have their sane moments, they are crazy, and, in general, can't be rationally convinced of anything they don't want to believe.

Post: #19

(10-03-2015 12:52 PM)Blackwell Wrote:  We need some kind of RVF Hall of Fame. Posters become eligible after a certain number of time/posts/reps and then get voted in.

Nah, they get appointed as 'Peers of the Realm' by His Rooshyness.

Post: #20

(10-03-2015 11:05 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  ^ Jesus man, you a poet?

Phoenix, I'm not but I'm very much flattered by the question. Thank you.

(10-03-2015 11:30 AM)DeeDee Wrote:  I honestly used to believe the world used to be black and white. That there were no colors and at some point in time someone invented a color machine which gave everything color. Or something happened which turned the world into color. I didn't think much about how exactly, I just believed it because there was no other explanation.

When I was around 14 and yet another history theme was introduced which didn't involve the transition from black-white to color, I stood up in class and asked out loud "Why are we never being taught about the pre-color era and the transition into color? It is not in any history book we've had, yet at some point in time, pictures have color in them.". It is not that I wanted to know what happened, just why we weren't being told. Like it is some sort taboo.

It was silent for a few seconds and then everyone turned into laughter. It took me around 14 years to finally learn about how it had nothing to do with some magic event but with the evolution of cameras. I felt so stupid and was ridiculed for it during the rest of high school.

That is a very funny and moving little story, and thanks for sharing it.

When I used to go to my local video store and get VHS tapes (and later DVDs) of old movies, many of them had the same description on the cover, "In glorious black and white". And as I kept watching these movies, so many of them unimaginably great and memorable, I too felt that the whole world of that time was washed in that glorious black and white. The chaste California road black and white of '50s sci-fi, and the diner coffee black and white of '40s noir; and as a subtle culmination, the beautiful and orderly TV black and white of the first years of Perry Mason. I still feel that's how the world was then, so maybe your childhood misconception had something to it after all.

Post: #21

I used to believe I was inherently a good and righteous person. I know now I've always been inherently prone to doing anything that further's my own self-interest and beliefs.

I used to believe fairness was the most important thing. I know see how all my life I've been a fairness-junkie.

I used to believe I was a very caring person. I know see how all my life I've been wanting others to care about me.

I used to believe it was wrong to be a self-interested person. I know now it's completely natural and ok to be self-interested and for others to be as well.

I used to believe in all the feminist/sjw propoganda that was fed to me since birth. I know now I was decieved and it pains me to see so many men around me still asleep to the deception.

I used to believe women wanted a man who would cater to them. I know now women, deep-down, want a strong man to surrender and cater to.

Post: #22

Some things I learned with experience (I previously believed otherwise):

- Physical appearance matters - at work, in personal relationships, with women, everywhere. People who say "what matters is on the inside" are either ignorant/naive, or jealous. Our outward appearance is a reflection of our soul and character.

- Organized monotheistic religion is not an obsolete relic of the past, but rather the pillar of any healthy patriarchal civilization. I'm sad I wasted 8 years of my life as an agnostic.

- Christianity/Catholicism in its original form, not the modern feminized version, is a masculine red pill religion. The Bible is a book full of life wisdom.

- Although it' sometimes good to keep a low profile, it is not important to respect other people's views. Some lifestyles are downright unhealthy and degenerate, and people practicing those should be avoided and ignored.

- If you have made enemies during your life, or if at any point you've been called a bigot, overly exclusive, disrespectful, arrogant or anything of the sort, most likely you're doing something right.

- Life is not fair, nor is it supposed to be fair. We all have to play with the cards we've been dealt with at birth. To quote Teddy Roosevelt, "do what you can, with what you have, where you are".

Post: #23

Thinking at 16 y.o.
"This is my last year of high school, can't wait to get through college during 3 years and get that dream IT job at $100k per year."
Thinking at 19 y.o.
"Fuck it, that's not what life is about. Let's my business going so I can start hiring people who will make that salary per year."
Reason: Meeting an old friend who got shitloads of money starting a business.
-----

Thinking at 18 y.o.
"You can commit to any girl if she is nice to you, pretty, and has good values. If she rode the carrousel, it's just experience and it's fine as long as it's too much.
Thinking at 22 y.o. (after living abroad)
"I refuse to date or commit to a girl if she isn't a virgin. Girls who are not virgins will be used to enhance my harem, but nothing more."
Reason: Discovering the beauty of Asian girls while living abroad and discovering the wounds of girls who've been dropped before.
-----

Thinking at 19 y.o.
"Family is the most important thing in the world and never let them down, no matter what."
Thinking at 22 y.o.
"Drop anyone who tries to bring you down, even if they are very close to you."
Reason: Having a family member always trying to discourage me from becoming rich.

Post: #24

Former beliefs

The Bible, the afterlife and a god.
Women are all the same.
Money matters, looks dont.
You can drink on an empty stomach.

Post: #25

1) On fearing self-weirdness:
Me: [to self] "I don't want people to think I'm weird so I'm not going to share what I'm thinking right now."
//
Me: "XXX!!"
Them: "You're weird"
Me: "Thank you *genuine smile*."

2) On the career:
"It's no big deal to spend so much of my precious youth working in a passionless career as a means to fulfilling an end result, while sitting in an aggressively air-conditioned cubicle staring at a computer screen 9 hours a day for 49 weeks a year while secretly fantasizing I was somewhere else. It's fine, because I can buy cool shit with all this money I'm making to distract me from the pain of my empty soul..."
//
"Fuck that. Life is too short for a life without passion. I'll trade less money and less free time for doing something I'm genuinely excited about."

3) On LMR:
Her: "We are not having sex tonight."
Me: "Uhhh...why not!?"
//
Her: "We are not having sex tonight."
Me: *mischievously smirks*

4) On coffee:
"This char-roasted Starbucks brew I'm drinking sure needs a lot of cream and sugar in order to go down without burning holes in my intestines. Maybe I should have ordered the pumpkin-spiced latte instead."
//
"This lightly roasted, delicate Colombian honey-processed coffee from the highlands of Antioquia reminds me of my favorite Colombian lover: complex yet balanced with a delicate and pleasant natural sweetness, good body, and not a trace of bitterness whatsoever. No cream or sugar, thanks."