Post: #1

My wigman and I opened these two set(girls who work at a juice bar.) I opened the set and chose girl A and he got girl B. It all went really well.

I was supposed to meet up with girl A for some ice cream later that week. However, I called once and she didn't answer so I didn't call back. I went to another city to game and just came back after two weeks. Just this week a buddy of mine and I went to the same Juice bar but we didn't go in since we ended up going to get lemonade somewhere instead. Girl A saw me from over the counter and started texting me and we arrange to meet up yesterday.

We met up and she's really into me and starts shit testing me a lot. After awhile she says your wingman came to see me the other day and we went lime dancing. I acted aloof and said "whatever, he's cool." She even tells me he's texting her. I hold my frame and kept gaming her.

But I started distrusting my wingman, he never told me anything and after leaving the juice bar I asked him what had happened and he told "That's none of your business man, I don't need to tell you everything I do."

I don't care about this particular girl, however, I don't know if I can keep on hanging out with a wingman who's going to try and get the girls who I have gamed and then not tell me anything.

What do you guys think? Is my wingman adopting low value behaviors?

Post: #2

He's clearly got a hoes before bros mentality. I would sever all ties with such a person before they have a chance at a more serious betrayal.

Post: #3

These type guys eventually shoot themselves in the foot

I had a close friend who betrayed me in a similar fashion, and he ended up fucking the chick. He also happened to be the weakest link in the crew.

I didn't trip; I just let him know that I knew and from that point on feed him with a long handle spoon

Post: #4

He's placing a new pussy possibility before your friendship?

Wait till money or something you actually need to depend and trust him on comes up. He will surely turn on you when the stakes are higher

You cannot depend on these types of people.
Get rid of him. It's a sunk cost.

Post: #5

No.

Post: #6

Tough call, I'm not sure we're getting the whole story here. If you didn't bang girl A and never set any ground rules with your wingman that's one thing. Always set boundaries. There is a level of transparency and mutual respect that is implied when you go out with other guys, but just because you "opened the set and chose girl A and he got girl B and it all went really well" doesn't mean jack shit if you two didn't discuss protocol. So I'd say it's on you to determine whether or not you forgive him, but in the future make sure you lay down the law ahead of time. You should always choose your wingmen wisely, but never assume just because you talked to a girl that she's yours, or that it's even implied.

Edit (because I missed this part originally): His response "that's none of your business" was based off of what? It does seem a bit out of line. Did he know you were still pursuing this chick?

I had a close friend who I found out was banging a ONS of mine for a few months (just on the outskirts of our social circle) after I explicitly forbade him. Did I have the right to tell him not to once I'd cast her aside? No. Did I lose respect for him after I found out? Absolutely. You have to pick and choose your battles. Sometimes you're better off forgiving and forgetting. At other times once a line has been crossed there is no going back. You need to decide where you stand.

Post: #7

Bros before hoes. That rule should never be broken. That was over the top IMO and you should let him go.

Post: #8

About 10 years ago my life long best friend lied to me about his plans and met up with my then recent ex, of 3 years, at a hotel bar for drinks.

She text me a picture of him asleep in bed with her the morning after.

I've never spoken to him since other than to tell him why.

Post: #9

(09-27-2015 11:45 AM)Gmac Wrote:  Tough call, I'm not sure we're getting the whole story here. If you didn't bang girl A and never set any ground rules with your wingman that's one thing. Always set boundaries. There is a level of transparency and mutual respect that is implied when you go out with other guys, but just because you "opened the set and chose girl A and he got girl B and it all went really well" doesn't mean jack shit if you two didn't discuss protocol. So I'd say it's on you to determine whether or not you forgive him, but in the future make sure you lay down the law ahead of time. You should always choose your wingmen wisely, but never assume just because you talked to a girl that she's yours, or that it's even implied.

Edit (because I missed this part originally): His response "that's none of your business" was based off of what? It does seem a bit out of line. Did he know you were still pursuing this chick?

I had a close friend who I found out was banging a ONS of mine for a few months (just on the outskirts of our social circle) after I explicitly forbade him. Did I have the right to tell him not to once I'd cast her aside? No. Did I lose respect for him after I found out? Absolutely. You have to pick and choose your battles. Sometimes you're better off forgiving and forgetting. At other times once a line has been crossed there is no going back. You need to decide where you stand.

Girl's A and B work together and are good friends. My wingman was gaming girl B and they were making out. Therefore, we were even thinking of taking both girls on a double date. My wingman even told me that day "I was jealous of how well you were doing with girl A so it inspired me to try harder with girl B."

When I went to see girl A I was trying to set a double date as I told her "your friend and my friend like each other, therefore, we should all go together bowling...etc." And then she tells me that my wingman came the other day and invited her to hang out. And then she told me that girl B has a boyfriend.

I confronted my wigman and told him "Hey man girl A told me you guys hang out, I want to hear your side of the story first" and he goes "No, you tell me what she told you and then I'll tell you." So then I go "Just tell me what happened" and then he told me "That's none of your business man."

Apparently, my wingman went to see girls A and B. Girl B-has a boyfriend- so she turned him down. And then he just asks girl A-who he knew I like and I was working on her.

Post: #10

(09-27-2015 12:03 PM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  About 10 years ago my life long best friend lied to me about his plans and met up with my then recent ex, of 3 years, at a hotel bar for drinks.

She text me a picture of him asleep in bed with her the morning after.

I've never spoken to him since other than to tell him why.

That was real grimy on his part, and he left you no choice. In some instances, it's probably best to keep your friends and your main from getting too chummy. I would be willing to bet a week's salary that he was secretly coveting your girl and when he saw an opening he went for it.

This type of indiscretion should be expected of females who are impulsive in nature. She knew it would hurt you, so that provided her the needed motivation. In the case of your best friend he knew better, and it was clearly pre-meditated.

If you want to know the next guy your main girl will most likely be sexing after you, look no further than someone in your social circle.

Post: #11

This is why I don't do "wingmen".

Post: #12

(09-26-2015 08:46 PM)Phatom Wrote:  But I started distrusting my wingman, he never told me anything and after leaving the juice bar I asked him what had happened and he told "That's none of your business man, I don't need to tell you everything I do."

What do you guys think? Is my wingman adopting low value behaviors?

Like for G-Man that stuck out to me. Unless there's a something that you know of to make him respond that way it's out of line and strikes me as someone trying to hide something from you.

(09-27-2015 02:47 PM)Phatom Wrote:  I confronted my wigman and told him "Hey man girl A told me you guys hang out, I want to hear your side of the story first" and he goes "No, you tell me what she told you and then I'll tell you." So then I go "Just tell me what happened" and then he told me "That's none of your business man."

Apparently, my wingman went to see girls A and B. Girl B-has a boyfriend- so she turned him down. And then he just asks girl A-who he knew I like and I was working on her.

Asking what she said first before he tells you? He's just trying to find a way to spin a yarn. That's a red flag. That's what kids do when they get in trouble and a parent finds out.

I'd advise you drop this man from your life. He's not your friend and he's not your wingman.

G

Post: #13

Crashbang, that was really grimy on HER part to text you the pic just to rub it in.

Did you guys go through a particularly nasty breakup? Fuck man, after three years of being with someone you would think they would spare you the visual evidence.

Women are wretched things. .

Post: #14

Once you've had a great wingman you'll know not to even bother with sub-par guys who do this kinda cheap shit.

However, I've encountered this situation before.

Usually you have 1 guy who's willing to fall on grenades and another who's not. This is the worst type of dynamic and makes for more drama than its worth.

Post: #15

(09-27-2015 04:09 PM)HonantheBarbarian Wrote:  Crashbang, that was really grimy on HER part to text you the pic just to rub it in.

Did you guys go through a particularly nasty breakup? Fuck man, after three years of being with someone you would think they would spare you the visual evidence.

Women are wretched things. .

Yeah, I dumped her for an 18 year old model (who I'm still with today, 10 years later as it happens)

She set the whole thing up and he was/is a thirsty beta chump who fell right for it.

He's now got a frumpy older wife...

Post: #16

Jeez, you guys are awfully quick to advise "cutting someone out of your life" for what seems like a pretty minor transgression, LOL.

Whatever happened to the normal rough-and-tumble between guys? Sometimes men that are good friends will try to fuck with each other a little. If the guy fucks with you by trying to game some slut you had your eyes on, you can fuck with him some other way, without going overboard. No need to "cut him dead" for something like that.

Obviously I'm not talking about CBW's situation, that's different. But with day to day things, no reason to be so damn sensitive about every little thing or even worry about whether to "forgive" someone as if he tried to steal your grandmother's favorite brooch.

Young dudes these day are way too thin-skinned...

Post: #17

I had a who I thought was a good friend of mine pull that on me and I forgave it. Fast forward 3 years later he ripped me off for almost $40,000.

Once a liar or a thief , always a liar or a thief.
People do not change. They may change for a day , month or a year but inevitably they will revert to their true nature. Especially a weak person who will do anything for pussy. Those pussy chasing backstabbers are the weakest of all as they are small stakes.

Imagine when large sums of money come into play or a possible business relationship.

If I was you, I would cut it off fully. If you have a change of heart about the friendship, make sure you do not ever lend him money , enter a business relationship or leave your wife , gf around him. Leave him as an acquaintance - hi , bye and that's it.

I wish someone would have told me this years ago.

Post: #18

(09-27-2015 05:01 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  Jeez, you guys are awfully quick to advise "cutting someone out of your life" for what seems like a pretty minor transgression, LOL.

Whatever happened to the normal rough-and-tumble between guys? Sometimes men that are good friends will try to fuck with each other a little. If the guy fucks with you by trying to game some slut you had your eyes on, you can fuck with him some other way, without going overboard. No need to "cut him dead" for something like that.

Obviously I'm not talking about CBW's situation, that's different. But with day to day things, no reason to be so damn sensitive about every little thing or even worry about whether to "forgive" someone as if he tried to steal your grandmother's favorite brooch.

Young dudes these day are way too thin-skinned...

I agree that people today are too thin skinned.

But I don't think the people advocating for OP to cut this guy out of his life (including myself) are going overboard.

I advocated cutting the guy from the team because it doesn't sound like "he's just fucking with OP". If he was, in my mind, he wouldn't be so defensive when questioned ("none of your business man"). He went behind his back to hit on the girl OP was talking to and then lied about it. To me, that sounds like a guy who's insecure and would throw OP under a bus if it made his life really convenient. That's the real issue - not the girl.

I admit - we don't have a lot to go on. We know this other guy is OP's wingman. Presumably they know each other for some time. We can't tell the voice tone when OP and him talked. There's probably a lot of data points missing so maybe I'm giving the wrong advice. But from where I'm looking - it seems reasonable. No reason to stick around a guy who salts your game. I'm not advocating this guy disown his brother or best friend because he hit on some girl he liked (we also don't know how far things went between the girl and either guy).

G

P.S. Since you speak of fucking around with people - I"m pretty sure you're fucking around with us in your post.

Post: #19

(09-27-2015 07:13 PM)Geomann180 Wrote:  

(09-27-2015 05:01 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  Jeez, you guys are awfully quick to advise "cutting someone out of your life" for what seems like a pretty minor transgression, LOL.

Whatever happened to the normal rough-and-tumble between guys? Sometimes men that are good friends will try to fuck with each other a little. If the guy fucks with you by trying to game some slut you had your eyes on, you can fuck with him some other way, without going overboard. No need to "cut him dead" for something like that.

Obviously I'm not talking about CBW's situation, that's different. But with day to day things, no reason to be so damn sensitive about every little thing or even worry about whether to "forgive" someone as if he tried to steal your grandmother's favorite brooch.

Young dudes these day are way too thin-skinned...

I agree that people today are too thin skinned.

But I don't think the people advocating for OP to cut this guy out of his life (including myself) are going overboard.

I advocated cutting the guy from the team because it doesn't sound like "he's just fucking with OP". If he was, in my mind, he wouldn't be so defensive when questioned ("none of your business man"). He went behind his back to hit on the girl OP was talking to and then lied about it. To me, that sounds like a guy who's insecure and would throw OP under a bus if it made his life really convenient. That's the real issue - not the girl.

I admit - we don't have a lot to go on. We know this other guy is OP's wingman. Presumably they know each other for some time. We can't tell the voice tone when OP and him talked. There's probably a lot of data points missing so maybe I'm giving the wrong advice. But from where I'm looking - it seems reasonable. No reason to stick around a guy who salts your game. I'm not advocating this guy disown his brother or best friend because he hit on some girl he liked (we also don't know how far things went between the girl and either guy).

G

P.S. Since you speak of fucking around with people - I"m pretty sure you're fucking around with us in your post.

I agree with this. If the "rough and tumble between the guys" was just that, between the guys, that's one thing, but this is not. I'm all for joking with each other and fucking with each other when you're amongst each other, but in this case, they're not. It's a more public exercise in disrespect. Sometimes being aware of these types of acts in other people is dismissed as being "thin skinned". If anything, I think there's lots of dudes who are putting up with too much shit, believing it's just this rough and tumble. Meanwhile, their friends treat them like a punching bag all the time, with others seeing it and thinking it's ok to treat them this way as well. In this instance however, like Geomann said, more information would be needed

On a related note, just like how most of us recognize that older people have a misconception on modern male-female relationships, I think there's a generational gap that needs to be bridged with regard to modern male-male friendships, particularly the lack of them. The western world is becoming atomized and individualistic, with friendships are more and more resembling "drinking buddes" and social circles changing all the time. Men don't have other men in their lives that have their backs anymore. This is great for women, as a man without a support network beyond his family is more likely to put up with more shit.

Post: #20

(09-27-2015 07:13 PM)Geomann180 Wrote:  P.S. Since you speak of fucking around with people - I"m pretty sure you're fucking around with us in your post.

I'm not, G. I take my posts on this forum with the greatest seriousness and I always try to give the best advice I possibly can.

I do think that young dudes these days are a little too thin-skinned. And I also feel that there is a kind of romance for certain guys to the very idea of "cutting someone out of your life", they feel that it's enveloped in an air of manliness and Robert Greene-endorsed steely-eyed realism and ruthless efficiency. I find all this amusing but also regrettable, when all is said and done.

I feel that many men, including men on this forum, are lonelier than they like to admit, and part of the reason is that they don't take their male friendships seriously enough and don't give them enough of a chance. Of course if someone proves himself, over time and in different circumstances, to be a man of poor character, you may have to let him go. But over something as trivial as the story in the OP, all by itself? Of course not.

Post: #21

(09-27-2015 07:42 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

(09-27-2015 07:13 PM)Geomann180 Wrote:  P.S. Since you speak of fucking around with people - I"m pretty sure you're fucking around with us in your post.

I feel that many men, including men on this forum, are lonelier than they like to admit,

That's because they stopped drinking.

Post: #22

(09-27-2015 08:04 PM)nek Wrote:  

(09-27-2015 07:42 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

(09-27-2015 07:13 PM)Geomann180 Wrote:  P.S. Since you speak of fucking around with people - I"m pretty sure you're fucking around with us in your post.

I feel that many men, including men on this forum, are lonelier than they like to admit,

That's because they stopped drinking.

nek, I don't want to derail this thread such as it is but if you're interested, I posted some thoughts on the subject of friendship and drinking here.

Post: #23

(09-27-2015 08:20 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

(09-27-2015 08:04 PM)nek Wrote:  

(09-27-2015 07:42 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

(09-27-2015 07:13 PM)Geomann180 Wrote:  P.S. Since you speak of fucking around with people - I"m pretty sure you're fucking around with us in your post.

I feel that many men, including men on this forum, are lonelier than they like to admit,

That's because they stopped drinking.

nek, I don't want to derail this thread such as it is but if you're interested, I posted some thoughts on the subject of friendship and drinking here.

I was saying that tongue-in-cheek. I think the no drinking thing you've started is great. As for this post you linked to, I couldn't agree more with your conclusions (early 30s myself).

Post: #24

(09-27-2015 07:42 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

(09-27-2015 07:13 PM)Geomann180 Wrote:  P.S. Since you speak of fucking around with people - I"m pretty sure you're fucking around with us in your post.

I'm not, G. I take my posts on this forum with the greatest seriousness and I always try to give the best advice I possibly can.

Then that is my bad.

(09-27-2015 07:42 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  I do think that young dudes these days are a little too thin-skinned. And I also feel that there is a kind of romance for certain guys to the very idea of "cutting someone out of your life", they feel that it's enveloped in an air of manliness and Robert Greene-endorsed steely-eyed realism and ruthless efficiency. I find all this amusing but also regrettable, when all is said and done.

I feel that many men, including men on this forum, are lonelier than they like to admit, and part of the reason is that they don't take their male friendships seriously enough and don't give them enough of a chance. Of course if someone proves himself, over time and in different circumstances, to be a man of poor character, you may have to let him go. But over something as trivial as the story in the OP, all by itself? Of course not.

Out of curiosity, how old are you and how do you think I am?

As for loneliness and male friendships. I'd admit to feeling lonely a lot of the time. Part of the reason why I'm on the forum. Having 'discovered the red pill' I can't go back to my old life and pretend nothing's wrong. I can't talk about it with most people either. That's what really makes me feel lonely.

To an extent I can talk about this stuff with my parents and my best friend and as time goes by I notice I can get away with a lot of stuff around people if I just tell them I'm not politically correct. But it's rare that I meet someone with a open mind I can tell anything.

As for cast people aside at a few signs of trouble? I don't like it. But I sure as hell don't do it because some guy wrote a book telling me to do it. I don't let people in so easily or build attachments for two reasons.

1) I move around a lot (self explanatory).
2) The culture. If a girl says the wrong thing she can ruin my life. If a guy here's the wrong thing at the wrong time, and repeats it to the wrong people, that can be the end of my career. Hell - some of these guys, white knights or general douche bags are worse than the girls we rag on.

You must remember, the social contract works two ways. I'm 23 and the situation on the ground looks grim.

So to sum up - I recommend the OP throw this guy off the team for these reasons:

1) He's disloyal
2) He's dishonest
3) He's stupid*
4) Litmus test**

G

*If this guy really wanted to not tell OP something, saying "It's none of your business" is one of the most poor choice of words I can think of. Unless you're working for some alphabet soup agency and would have to kill someone if you told them what you were up to, there's no reason to use that phrase. Any normal person is going to be curious and think "I wonder why he's being defensive?". The best way to prevent someone from stealing something you own is to convince them that you've got nothing worth stealing. All this guy had to say was "Nothing special happened" when asked what else he got up to.

**Say I'm overreacting or making a decision based on the wrong data points and the the whole issue was not a big deal. If OP cuts him out of his life - the dude will either ask the OP why and explain himself better in good faith, or he won't which will speak to his character and how much he valued OP as a friend.

Post: #25

G,

Thank you for the honest post. I must say that I always particularly enjoy your posts because you speak plainly and from the heart.

I am in my late 30s, and I knew that you were in your early to mid 20s.

To return to the situation in the OP very briefly, I think that "disloyal" and "dishonest" are pretty big words, and should be reserved for more serious transgressions than that. I think a much more likely explanation, to be perfectly honest, is lack of social grace and a kind of mild Aspie-ism -- and there is a little of that in the OP itself and its rather dead, gamebot-like use of jargon such as "two set", "wingman", "aloof", "frame" etc. I think we're dealing with a couple of dudes who are somewhat robotically going through their "game" motions and they both need to relax. There is really not much more to say about this.

Another small comment: I really don't like the idea of giving people "litmus tests" and seeing how they will respond. It strikes me as very feminine -- bitches are always trying to test you, they do shit just to see how you'll react and they'll judge you for it one way or another. It's part of their nature but men should really know better.

***************

Now to the much more important points you make about loneliness and friendship.

I hear you, and I know that the situation on the ground is difficult, especially so for young men who try to think freely and think for themselves. You are right to be careful to preserve your career, and I think any man of substance -- at this time or any other -- does not form deep attachments very readily or very fast.

In fact, if you have a best friend that you are very close to and can be honest with, and parents you can talk to, you are fortunate and already ahead of the game. There are many young guys on here that have nothing like that -- just think of how lonely they must be.

All I would say is that the friendships one does have -- however few or many they may be -- deserve a real effort to grow and cultivate, and that they should not be severed, or artificially "tested", over relative trivia. Guys that have generally proven themselves over time should be given almost every chance, and their faults -- which they'll inevitably have -- should be tolerated and even relished as part of the comedy of life, as long as these faults are not truly egregious and incompatible with decency and good character.

Finally, I think that this very forum, if used judiciously, can be an excellent resource for young men to form serious friendships that can withstand the text of time. I feel that not enough use is made of this. I wrote a brief post about this in another thread which you can take a look at if you're interested.