Post: #1

Been getting into meditation lately and according to Buddhist teachings and tenants of meditation, the judgments we make about others in our mind (especially if we lose ourselves in them) are unhealthy, bad for our soul and ultimately take away from our own happiness.

That said, I recently went through an experience with a chick who had tons of the typical redflags that the manosphere warns about but I chose to ignore these judgments in my mind and gave her a chance thinking that she could be an exception because of her other positive qualities. Turns out that I got burned and the judgements I initially had (from the red flags) were correct. Had I listened to my gut and the thoughts in my head from the beginning, I would not be in the situation I am now.

I find myself to be an extremely judgmental person where my mind constantly is making comments about people and making assumptions about them especially strangers. I don't think this is particularly healthy and leads myself to a negative cognitive cycle but at the same time, often times these judgements are correct.

How do we go about balancing these judgements in our mind about people so that it isn't unhealthy for us but also use them to protect ourselves and to avoid others who can potentially harm us?

Post: #2

Wow

This is exactly what I do CONSTANTLY. When I read your post I thought i actually wrote it.

Im with you here and id love to hear some responses

Post: #3

(08-23-2015 01:18 AM)BetaNoMore Wrote:  Been getting into meditation lately and according to Buddhist teachings and tenants of meditation, the judgments we make about others in our mind (especially if we lose ourselves in them) are unhealthy, bad for our soul and ultimately take away from our own happiness.

That said, I recently went through an experience with a chick who had tons of the typical redflags that the manosphere warns about but I chose to ignore these judgments in my mind and gave her a chance thinking that she could be an exception because of her other positive qualities. Turns out that I got burned and the judgements I initially had (from the red flags) were correct. Had I listened to my gut and the thoughts in my head from the beginning, I would not be in the situation I am now.

I find myself to be an extremely judgmental person where my mind constantly is making comments about people and making assumptions about them especially strangers. I don't think this is particularly healthy and leads myself to a negative cognitive cycle but at the same time, often times these judgements are correct.

How do we go about balancing these judgements in our mind about people so that it isn't unhealthy for us but also use them to protect ourselves and to avoid others who can potentially harm us?

I'm not an expert on Buddhist teachings, however I believe there is more to the "don't judge lest you be judged" lesson that you're missing. Living a life without judging others is a great way to fall prey to people who will take advantage of you. The world isn't perfect.

From my limited studying, Buddhism teaches a similar lesson that Christianity also teaches. The golden rule, "Do unto others as you want done to yourself".

Take a look at yourself and your expectations on how you should live your life. If you have high expectations of yourself, things like not being a pain in the rear, eating healthy, making money, and just being a good person, it would behoove you to not expect this behavior from others. In this world, you have to work to mean anything.

So long as your ducks are in order, there is nothing wrong with placing judgement on others. It may seem unhealthy, but there actually quite a lot of poor functioning people on this planet. Your judgement may be right 75% of the time.

The trick is surrounding yourself with the few amount of people who are healthy themselves so you have a barometer of what a healthy and well balanced person looks like. This will even you out and help you identify who is worthy of your time and who isn't.

Post: #4

Not judging is definitely the wrong answer and that kind of naiveness can lead to catastrophes. We live in a cruel world and if you go around avoiding passing judgement on people, you will get screwed over a lot by men in business world and by women in your personal life.

Having said that, it's also critical for your happiness that you don't spend lots of mental energy on trashing people and thinking how they all suck. It's one thing to acknowledge that a person is not worth your time, it's another thing to be constantly angry about how stupid people are.

Here in RVF we do the latter a lot. Just by taking a look at the EE forum I get filled with tons of negativity and anger. We pay lots of attention to the mentally ill of the world and it's counter-productive to being happy and in peace.

To sum up, you should find the fine midpoint between being a misanthrope and being a naive fool. I use that for my general life. For my personal life, I'm a lot more judgemental of women since they burn you pretty good at the first opportunity and therefore you should not give them one. Keep in mind that being too judgemental is better for your overall happiness than being burned and butthurt.

Post: #5

OP: Grammar note. It's tenets not tenants.

I think you are conflating judgements with assessments. If a woman is being a nightmare, judging her would be hating her for all her red flags. Assessing her would be recognizing that she is a nightmare without giving it any negative emotions. Like, you can acknowledge that she is doing terrible things without letting it reach your emotions because, honestly, you don't know why she is acting the way she is, only that she is.

There is a spiritual parable that I think is Buddhist that describes the human heart like this:

If you are in a boat and see an empty boat floating aimlessly into your path, you avoid it, and go your way. If there is a person in the boat, you get mad, ask yourself what that guy's problem is, and grumble about it for the rest of the day.

That is the difference between judgement and assessment.

The Beast1 and turkishcandy are right. Don't let a need not to judge lead you never to assess any situation or person. You are setting yourself up for not knowing what hit you in this world.

Even Christianity, as earlier pointed out, is not simply the removal of judgement. They call it discernment instead of assessment, though it is the same thing.

Like in this scripture:

Matthew 10:16 : I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.

Post: #6

(08-23-2015 01:18 AM)BetaNoMore Wrote:  That said, I recently went through an experience with a chick who had tons of the typical redflags that the manosphere warns about but I chose to ignore these judgments in my mind and gave her a chance thinking that she could be an exception because of her other positive qualities. Turns out that I got burned and the judgements I initially had (from the red flags) were correct. Had I listened to my gut and the thoughts in my head from the beginning, I would not be in the situation I am now.

"Judging" is not the right word here. What you did was break another tenet of Buddhism: succumbing to "attachment" and "ignorance," tow of the three poisons which are attachment, ignorance and aversion.

To chat about judging - to judge everything will lead you to be unhappier than if you did not judge. In your case, it's not that you should have listened to your judgements and avoid, it's that you grew too attached, and now that you're lacking in you're in pain.

In your last question, how do you balance judgements? The same way the Buddha recommends: to be mindful of your judgements. To realize that they are judgements and that's it, they are just thoughts and feelings and actually nothing more than ephemeral and capricious nothings. To not let your judgements affect your overall welfare. Because honestly it sounds like you're on the verge a paranoid breakdown - "Everyone's out to get me! All the girls wanna do is hurt me!" - and this is a dangerous place to be.

Also, let's also get one thing straight: you keep saying that "this girl hurt you." But the girl did NOT hurt you. You hurt yourself due to your attachments and your ignorance to the girl. When the girl you realized in reality was not the ideal perfect model that you had created in your mind that caused you pain. But it was YOU who created that false image of her in your mind - she didn't actually hurt you; you hurt yourself.

Post: #7

Be very very Judging and discriminating. Always. Against yourself and against others. Have high standards for yourself and others. This is the correct basis of spiritual and physical well being.


The "judge not lest be judged yourself" sentiment in christianity, buddhism and any other religion is not a classical argument from these religions It is the watered down parasite argument that now sticks to all religions do to all of them bowing down to the current ruling paradigm of democracy and equality. All the worlds mainstream religions bow down to the equality propaganda and distort their teachings to gain acceptance from the democratic governments who preach that everyone is equal even if different. All this is a negative consequence of political populism which seeks to inflate the egos of people to make them think they are special snowflakes and their votes and pre-fabricated opinions on distraction topics matter.

Real spiritual life requires a harsh judgement. If someone is full of sin, drags you down to their dirty lowlife level or seeks to escape responsibility for his/her actions by trying to make you their scapegoat then there is only one thing you can and should do - cast them out of your life and let them grind teeth in darkness.

What is meant by non judging in the original sense is that you shouldn't get angry or otherwise emotional at stupid or evil people. Just recognize the animals that they are, understand the base desires that rule over them and manipulate them coldly by pressing on their dark desires. But this message doesn't sound all that puffy and goody goody in modern democratic environment so the religions have twisted this message into making you think that non judging means letting sinful human-animals to take advantage of you.

The world is wicked and fallen and it can surely be taxing on your nervous system to behold the world at this state forever. However ignoring the ills in the world and in the human hearts is not the answer. It's not the answer to pretend that everything is okay despite seeing red flags and knowing for sure that it is not. The solution that true spirituality provides is to turn ones gaze from the wretched earth to the holy heavens and to take delight in the sanctity of God and saints/ascended masters. There is no lasting and complete happiness and righteousness in this material world and it is a folly to just think this n be circumvented by blinding yourself to the grim reality.

Post: #8

Judgment is something all of us do. But some people, it seems, are naturally more judgmental than others. I would venture to say most of us here fall into the "more judgmental" category, since we spend a lot of time shaming fat women, complaining about tattoos, and generally voicing displeasure about American women in general.

Now here is the catch: If you're naturally judgmental and you suppress your instinct, it'll catch up with you in the end. You personally might take to Buddhism to try and transcend your judgmental nature. Others might take to liberalism or another religion. Some people might use drugs to blot out so-called bad feelings.

But you can't escape yourself. And if you get involved long-term with someone who you judge as trouble, eventually the real you will come out and you'll end up a very unhappy man.

I quote "Seinfeld" on here a lot...but here goes again. I think a lot of people use Buddhism like they used the satirical mantra "Serenity Now" on that show. You can keep saying "Serenity Now" to keep calm every time you get upset, but eventually you end up smashing things while screaming it like Kramer did. You can't override your own moral compass with Buddhism either.

How do I know?

Because I did a similar thing. The woman I married set off major alarm bells when I first met her, but I ignored my instincts. I didn't use Buddhism, but instead took to pop culture to justify why I was supposedly too uptight and needed to, like, chill dude! I was able to do this for a few years, but then major differences in our outlooks on life (and our behaviors) started wedging us apart.

Eventually, I found myself wondering why I didn't listen to my instincts to begin with and biting my tongue trying to avoid constant confrontation. "Serenity Now!!"

Consider yourself lucky that you dodged a bullet. The only thing worse than having the relationship you speak of not work out would be having it work out...because it would be much worse when it unraveled after you invested years. Besides, it's fun to look back years later at things that go wrong. Makes for more amusing stories than people's whose lives are like pre-planned scripts.

Post: #9

(08-24-2015 01:24 AM)Mage Wrote:  Be very very Judging and discriminating. Always. Against yourself and against others. Have high standards for yourself and others. This is the correct basis of spiritual and physical well being.


The "judge not lest be judged yourself" sentiment in christianity, buddhism and any other religion is not a classical argument from these religions It is the watered down parasite argument that now sticks to all religions do to all of them bowing down to the current ruling paradigm of democracy and equality. All the worlds mainstream religions bow down to the equality propaganda and distort their teachings to gain acceptance from the democratic governments who preach that everyone is equal even if different. All this is a negative consequence of political populism which seeks to inflate the egos of people to make them think they are special snowflakes and their votes and pre-fabricated opinions on distraction topics matter.

Real spiritual life requires a harsh judgement. If someone is full of sin, drags you down to their dirty lowlife level or seeks to escape responsibility for his/her actions by trying to make you their scapegoat then there is only one thing you can and should do - cast them out of your life and let them grind teeth in darkness.

What is meant by non judging in the original sense is that you shouldn't get angry or otherwise emotional at stupid or evil people. Just recognize the animals that they are, understand the base desires that rule over them and manipulate them coldly by pressing on their dark desires. But this message doesn't sound all that puffy and goody goody in modern democratic environment so the religions have twisted this message into making you think that non judging means letting sinful human-animals to take advantage of you.

The world is wicked and fallen and it can surely be taxing on your nervous system to behold the world at this state forever. However ignoring the ills in the world and in the human hearts is not the answer. It's not the answer to pretend that everything is okay despite seeing red flags and knowing for sure that it is not. The solution that true spirituality provides is to turn ones gaze from the wretched earth to the holy heavens and to take delight in the sanctity of God and saints/ascended masters. There is no lasting and complete happiness and righteousness in this material world and it is a folly to just think this n be circumvented by blinding yourself to the grim reality.

^^^ Perfect example when you get carried away with judging everything. You become a self-righteous self-proclaimed spiritual guru who knows all the answers and sees the world as black and white.

Post: #10

(08-24-2015 08:51 AM)monster Wrote:  

(08-24-2015 01:24 AM)Mage Wrote:  Be very very Judging and discriminating. Always. Against yourself and against others. Have high standards for yourself and others. This is the correct basis of spiritual and physical well being.


The "judge not lest be judged yourself" sentiment in christianity, buddhism and any other religion is not a classical argument from these religions It is the watered down parasite argument that now sticks to all religions do to all of them bowing down to the current ruling paradigm of democracy and equality. All the worlds mainstream religions bow down to the equality propaganda and distort their teachings to gain acceptance from the democratic governments who preach that everyone is equal even if different. All this is a negative consequence of political populism which seeks to inflate the egos of people to make them think they are special snowflakes and their votes and pre-fabricated opinions on distraction topics matter.

Real spiritual life requires a harsh judgement. If someone is full of sin, drags you down to their dirty lowlife level or seeks to escape responsibility for his/her actions by trying to make you their scapegoat then there is only one thing you can and should do - cast them out of your life and let them grind teeth in darkness.

What is meant by non judging in the original sense is that you shouldn't get angry or otherwise emotional at stupid or evil people. Just recognize the animals that they are, understand the base desires that rule over them and manipulate them coldly by pressing on their dark desires. But this message doesn't sound all that puffy and goody goody in modern democratic environment so the religions have twisted this message into making you think that non judging means letting sinful human-animals to take advantage of you.

The world is wicked and fallen and it can surely be taxing on your nervous system to behold the world at this state forever. However ignoring the ills in the world and in the human hearts is not the answer. It's not the answer to pretend that everything is okay despite seeing red flags and knowing for sure that it is not. The solution that true spirituality provides is to turn ones gaze from the wretched earth to the holy heavens and to take delight in the sanctity of God and saints/ascended masters. There is no lasting and complete happiness and righteousness in this material world and it is a folly to just think this n be circumvented by blinding yourself to the grim reality.

^^^ Perfect example when you get carried away with judging everything. You become a self-righteous self-proclaimed spiritual guru who knows all the answers and sees the world as black and white.

What's next? Are you going to accuse me of "mansplaining"?

I don't see world in black and white, also I don't know the answers to ALL the queastions, I still have many grey areas in my worldview. But after taking red pill, studying all the major faiths of the world and having other experiances I do know enough to distinguish between things with potential and utter rubbish. I have learned some things in life and these things help me to navigate life and reap success.

One thing that I have learned is that people like you who deny any certain knowledge and insist that anything is beyond judgement have a secret agenda. You have certain sins you wish to hide and therefore attack those who try to shed any light.

Post: #11

Monster kind of nailed it in his comment that it is about attachment, not judgement.

Basically, you should set yourself up so that you are not vulnerable. Women may say that they wan't a vulnerable man. But of course we (really do) know better. And the way not to be vulnerable, or to be "bulletproof" or "antifragile' if you prefer, is to have desires and judgements, like we all do, but not be attached to their outcome. Position yourself physically and mentally so that on occasions where your expectations are not met you are no worse off than if they were.

Saying that "This girl hurt me" is obviously no good. Well, maybe of she slapped you or punched you, but people are not meeting others expectations all day long. To get unduly upset about this means you will be constantly upset.

Post: #12

(08-24-2015 09:54 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(08-24-2015 08:51 AM)monster Wrote:  

(08-24-2015 01:24 AM)Mage Wrote:  Be very very Judging and discriminating. Always. Against yourself and against others. Have high standards for yourself and others. This is the correct basis of spiritual and physical well being.


The "judge not lest be judged yourself" sentiment in christianity, buddhism and any other religion is not a classical argument from these religions It is the watered down parasite argument that now sticks to all religions do to all of them bowing down to the current ruling paradigm of democracy and equality.

^^^ Perfect example when you get carried away with judging everything. You become a self-righteous self-proclaimed spiritual guru who knows all the answers and sees the world as black and white.

What's next? Are you going to accuse me of "mansplaining"?

...

One thing that I have learned is that people like you who deny any certain knowledge and insist that anything is beyond judgement have a secret agenda. You have certain sins you wish to hide and therefore attack those who try to shed any light.

Wait, I was taking your own advice and passed a judgement and then you take extreme offense and call me a sinner and other vitriol?

See? Look how unhappy and upset you are now. Maybe your advice about passing judgement isn't so sound after all.

Post: #13

Judge not lest you be judged is not a line exhorting you not to judge people.

People often interpret it wrongly whether out of misguidedness or intent to deceive others.

It warns against hypocrisy. Don't judge harshly people for the sins you yourself have committed. Don't be the pot calling the kettle black. Let he have committed no sin throw the first stone (on a sin by sin basis).

G

Post: #14

I believe the "judge not lest you be judged" has more to do with the idea of a person thinking they can tell "who gets into heaven" (from a Christian perspective) or, "who is capable of enlightenment" from a Buddhist perspective.

It doesn't mean you can't look at a girl with blue hair and sleeve tattoos and use your intuition to tell you she is probably a slut.

But salvation or enlightenment could be possible for anyone at any moment.

Self-judgement can be one of the more destructive forms of judgement. Internal dialogue that compares oneself to others is a product of the ego.

Post: #15

(08-24-2015 11:53 AM)RexImperator Wrote:  I believe the "judge not lest you be judged" has more to do with the idea of a person thinking they can tell "who gets into heaven" (from a Christian perspective) or, "who is capable of enlightenment" from a Buddhist perspective.

It doesn't mean you can't look at a girl with blue hair and sleeve tattoos and use your intuition to tell you she is probably a slut.

^This.

Post: #16

I agree and disagree with Mage.

Perspective wise, I was an amateur buddhist before I became a legitimate christian. The meditative practices of buddhism are excellent for settling one's mind for discernment, prayer or in some cases divine direction when seeking an answer.

The book of proverbs is full of scripture warning men to stay away from sluts, thieves, idiots etc or else you will end up in the same boat they are. At the same time, Christians are advised to bear testimony and charity to these people. To me that line is, help the homeless, talk with the worn out slut that laments that she can't find a man, go for breakfast with your buddy that is an angry drunk but don't share your life with them. Don't share your home with a drug addict that will rob you in a moment of weakness, don't get into a relationship with a slut that will cheat on you, don't go out to the bar with someone that will drag you into a fight and a night in jail...but certainly pray for their well being.

To think that you can have these sorts of low down and broken people in your life and not be dragged down with them is self riteousness. You'll slide right down into the pit with them.

I think thats what meant by 'judgement' vs. 'assessment'. To cast judgement is also to determine punishment...again Romans 12:19 "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord". I take this as meaning, don't go all Frank Castle/Punisher and starting dishing out "justice" on every slut you see. At the same time, you are supposed to beware of danger and corrupting influences...and avoid them, or as Mage says "cast them out of your life"

Assessing a situation through meditation and prayer and then putting distance between your life and that person to reduce your own risk certainly isn't biblically judgemental. Like I tell my white knight buddy at the gym...you don't have to date a girl in order to help her....aka "that chick needs a bible more than she needs a boyfriend"

Post: #17

Lots of eye opening solid advice in here.

BNM, has any of this helped shed some light onto anything?

Post: #18

Thanks for the replies guys. Good discussion.

I had a chat with a buddy yesterday who is a devout Christian and we brought up many of the same points discussed in this thread. I don't think I've come to any conclusions on what the "right" answer is and after considering it from all sorts of angles, I might be even more confused as ever. I don't think this question can be solved in a day and it'll be a constant journey on how to best move forward to finding out what the "right" answer is.

There's many factors that make this so difficult. First of all, even if you have found the "right" answer, it's not easy to train your mind and change it after years of thinking the same way. Furthermore, the act balancing act of being wise vs the judging that makes you unhappy and if often unproductive seem to be a very slippy-slope. As mage pointed out early, the key seems to be being mindful of your judgements but how does how does one tease apart which judgements are useful and which are harmful?

If I'm sitting at a coffee shop or at the gym or whatever, I'll often see someone and automatically think: "this guy seems like a fucking loser" or "this girl looks like a slut who gets pumped and dumped." These judgements obviously are derived from cues about the person which automatically pop up in my head and which I have no control over. One would say that these are unhealthy but at the same time, it's the same mechanism of the brain which is used on making judgments on a potential romantic interest as you're screening her for redflags.

I don't think there are any easy answers and as evidenced by this thread, there are a lot of differing, yet valid viewpoints.

edit: perhaps this is the way to go about it: From my limited understanding of meditation and Buddhism, I have to disagree on his interpretation of Buddhism which he compares to serenity now where it's basically "serenity now, INSANITY later." I don't think Buddhism is to suppress feelings/emotions/judgements so much as it's to embrace them, feel them, but be CONSCIOUS and aware of them. We can't control thoughts or impulses that pop up in our head, but we certainly can be mindful of them, acknowledge them and not act on them.

So perhaps the answer is to be aware of all these judgements but like mage said, just realize that they're thoughts. If I'm making some ridiculous judgement on some guy who looks like a "loser" or a woman who looks like a promiscuous woman, I can recognize that these are just thoughts and it has no baring on my life. However, when it comes to a chick I'm dating, I can be mindful of these thoughts that come up and realize to myself that they ARE concerns and to keep an open mind but to also acknowledge that these red flags/initial gut feelings came up for a reason and to use them wisely.

Post: #19

(08-24-2015 04:58 PM)BetaNoMore Wrote:  Thanks for the replies guys. Good discussion.

I had a chat with a buddy yesterday who is a devout Christian and we brought up many of the same points discussed in this thread. I don't think I've come to any conclusions on what the "right" answer is and after considering it from all sorts of angles, I might be even more confused as ever. I don't think this question can be solved in a day and it'll be a constant journey on how to best move forward to finding out what the "right" answer is.

There's many factors that make this so difficult. First of all, even if you have found the "right" answer, it's not easy to train your mind and change it after years of thinking the same way. Furthermore, the act balancing act of being wise vs the judging that makes you unhappy and if often unproductive seem to be a very slippy-slope. As mage pointed out early, the key seems to be being mindful of your judgements but how does how does one tease apart which judgements are useful and which are harmful?

If I'm sitting at a coffee shop or at the gym or whatever, I'll often see someone and automatically think: "this guy seems like a fucking loser" or "this girl looks like a slut who gets pumped and dumped." These judgements obviously are derived from cues about the person which automatically pop up in my head and which I have no control over. One would say that these are unhealthy but at the same time, it's the same mechanism of the brain which is used on making judgments on a potential romantic interest as you're screening her for redflags.

I don't think there are any easy answers and as evidenced by this thread, there are a lot of differing, yet valid viewpoints.

edit: perhaps this is the way to go about it: From my limited understanding of meditation and Buddhism, I have to disagree on his interpretation of Buddhism which he compares to serenity now where it's basically "serenity now, INSANITY later." I don't think Buddhism is to suppress feelings/emotions/judgements so much as it's to embrace them, feel them, but be CONSCIOUS and aware of them. We can't control thoughts or impulses that pop up in our head, but we certainly can be mindful of them, acknowledge them and not act on them.

So perhaps the answer is to be aware of all these judgements but like mage said, just realize that they're thoughts. If I'm making some ridiculous judgement on some guy who looks like a "loser" or a woman who looks like a loose woman, I can recognize that these are just thoughts and it has no baring on my life. However, when it comes to a chick I'm dating, I can be mindful of these thoughts that come up and realize to myself that they ARE concerns and to keep an open mind but to also acknowledge that these red flags/initial gut feelings came up for a reason and to use them wisely.

I think you are on point, especially with your edits. From what I understand the meditative aspect of buddhism is about letting go or letting your thoughts flow...like a leaf that floats down a steam, just let it come into your field of view and then go again. A great example of assessing someone and then holding onto it would be your stereotypical bully...in a setting where they would see someone and think "I bet that guy is a fucking loser" and it drives them crazy that a loser exists in the space to the point that they need to get up and antagonize them. Or if someone in a coffee shop sees a "notorious rape advocate" and they becomes so self righteous that he becomes the judge of his alleged crimes and demands punishment by calling down a mob upon him. Thats actually a perfect example of 'judging' someone vs assessing/observing. An assessment that the 'most notorious man in montreal' is in your coffee shop would be to simply keep your distance if you thought he was dangerous, and ask him to leave if he tries to rape any of your customers.

As a man, and a meditative or religious student your emotions should not guide your actions. You should let them 'float down the river' so to speak before setting your path forward. Thats not to say "feel no emotion" but more to say "don't drive when drunk with lust" Sober up from that "how many dicks did she have to suck to get THAT good?" blowjob before you decide to go and buy a ring.

Post: #20

Yeah, the Seinfeld "serenity now!" is really a caricature. (Quite a funny one.) That's just another form of non-acceptance or suppression as you call it.

Mindfulness is not about controlling your mind but being aware of it, which then creates some inner space or consciousness before you act. To others it may appear as if you have control over your emotions, since you become less reactive once you have that awareness.

Post: #21

I'm a little bit late to the discussion, but I think I have something valuable to clarify.

In this situation, I would personally say that the central tenet of Buddhism that is most important to this discussion is acceptance.

This notion of nonjudgement doesn't imply that one has to be blind to the negative qualities of people: rather, one can observe certain things (e.g. this girl has tattoos, swears a lot, raised by a single mother, etc..) without thinking negatively about the person being observed (nonjudgement). Nonjudgement implies acceptance, which is why when you make observations such as these, you can, for example, accept that most likely this girl will not be relationship material.

In this case, you apply the concepts of Buddhism so that you accept the woman for what she is (and no more), without attaching yourself to any pedestalizing notions about them (the cardinal mistake which so many people fall prey to).

Post: #22

I haven't read all of the replies in this thread, so I apologize if my reply has already been said or is irrelevant.

But I find my attitude changing from Smug Annoyed Dismissiveness to Amused Dismissiveness by following one simple mantra, "Everyone Is Free To Be Wrong." Whenever I find myself getting worked up over someone else's stupidity, I just say my mantra and feel the amusement wash over me.

There's a subtle difference between Expecting Your Annoyance To Motivate Others To Change (which doesn't work) and Turning Your Annoyance Into Amusement Because You Know You Can't Force Others To Change. And from this second Frame, I find myself happier and believe people treat me better (and smile at me more).

I don't know if "Everyone Is Free To Be Wrong" will help you, BetaNoMore, but I hope it does.

Post: #23

(08-24-2015 11:32 AM)monster Wrote:  

(08-24-2015 09:54 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(08-24-2015 08:51 AM)monster Wrote:  

(08-24-2015 01:24 AM)Mage Wrote:  Be very very Judging and discriminating. Always. Against yourself and against others. Have high standards for yourself and others. This is the correct basis of spiritual and physical well being.


The "judge not lest be judged yourself" sentiment in christianity, buddhism and any other religion is not a classical argument from these religions It is the watered down parasite argument that now sticks to all religions do to all of them bowing down to the current ruling paradigm of democracy and equality.

^^^ Perfect example when you get carried away with judging everything. You become a self-righteous self-proclaimed spiritual guru who knows all the answers and sees the world as black and white.

What's next? Are you going to accuse me of "mansplaining"?

...

One thing that I have learned is that people like you who deny any certain knowledge and insist that anything is beyond judgement have a secret agenda. You have certain sins you wish to hide and therefore attack those who try to shed any light.

Wait, I was taking your own advice and passed a judgement and then you take extreme offense and call me a sinner and other vitriol?

See? Look how unhappy and upset you are now. Maybe your advice about passing judgement isn't so sound after all.

You assume too much about me.

You assumed I see world in black an white, you assumed I know answers to all questions and now you assume your "judgement" makes me unhappy and upset.

The truth is I am a male. A masculine male. That means I can enjoy an intellectual discussion without getting upset about the opinions that the other party pronounces. I don't take political and philosophical things personally. If you were a man you would understand. Sadly, you are a woman or at least think like a woman - therefore in your opinion truth is not important and only emotional state is important. You would gladly sacraface any truthful real talk for a PC phrases that are stripped of any meaning and therefore cannot hurt the emotional state of anyone.

We are too different. I can understand you, but you can never understand me because you are an inferior being whose emotions rule over judgement.

Post: #24

(08-24-2015 02:19 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  I agree and disagree with Mage.

Perspective wise, I was an amateur buddhist before I became a legitimate christian. The meditative practices of buddhism are excellent for settling one's mind for discernment, prayer or in some cases divine direction when seeking an answer.

The book of proverbs is full of scripture warning men to stay away from sluts, thieves, idiots etc or else you will end up in the same boat they are. At the same time, Christians are advised to bear testimony and charity to these people. To me that line is, help the homeless, talk with the worn out slut that laments that she can't find a man, go for breakfast with your buddy that is an angry drunk but don't share your life with them. Don't share your home with a drug addict that will rob you in a moment of weakness, don't get into a relationship with a slut that will cheat on you, don't go out to the bar with someone that will drag you into a fight and a night in jail...but certainly pray for their well being.

To think that you can have these sorts of low down and broken people in your life and not be dragged down with them is self riteousness. You'll slide right down into the pit with them.

I think thats what meant by 'judgement' vs. 'assessment'. To cast judgement is also to determine punishment...again Romans 12:19 "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord". I take this as meaning, don't go all Frank Castle/Punisher and starting dishing out "justice" on every slut you see. At the same time, you are supposed to beware of danger and corrupting influences...and avoid them, or as Mage says "cast them out of your life"

Assessing a situation through meditation and prayer and then putting distance between your life and that person to reduce your own risk certainly isn't biblically judgemental. Like I tell my white knight buddy at the gym...you don't have to date a girl in order to help her....aka "that chick needs a bible more than she needs a boyfriend"

You know what - I agree with you completely.

I don't know why you say that you both agree with me and disagree with me. I didn't say that one must deal punishment and vengeance. My own policy is to not waste my time on bringing people I dislike down. Instead I use my time to lift myself up. Vengeance entangles you with that destructive person (maybe even in karmic way, if we mention Buddhism). Better forgive and to move on, thus gaining freedom. If you desire schadenfreude than you will always know that their envy of your success hurts them as much as any suffering that you spared them.

Vengeance and punishment is justified, however, if it is a form of defense against future crimes of a person who is likely to commit those crimes again.

I think the Game and seduction also applies in spirituality. Be bad but don't be evil. Be good but don't be nice.

Post: #25

(08-26-2015 02:20 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(08-24-2015 02:19 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  I agree and disagree with Mage.

Perspective wise, I was an amateur buddhist before I became a legitimate christian. The meditative practices of buddhism are excellent for settling one's mind for discernment, prayer or in some cases divine direction when seeking an answer.

The book of proverbs is full of scripture warning men to stay away from sluts, thieves, idiots etc or else you will end up in the same boat they are. At the same time, Christians are advised to bear testimony and charity to these people. To me that line is, help the homeless, talk with the worn out slut that laments that she can't find a man, go for breakfast with your buddy that is an angry drunk but don't share your life with them. Don't share your home with a drug addict that will rob you in a moment of weakness, don't get into a relationship with a slut that will cheat on you, don't go out to the bar with someone that will drag you into a fight and a night in jail...but certainly pray for their well being.

To think that you can have these sorts of low down and broken people in your life and not be dragged down with them is self riteousness. You'll slide right down into the pit with them.

I think thats what meant by 'judgement' vs. 'assessment'. To cast judgement is also to determine punishment...again Romans 12:19 "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord". I take this as meaning, don't go all Frank Castle/Punisher and starting dishing out "justice" on every slut you see. At the same time, you are supposed to beware of danger and corrupting influences...and avoid them, or as Mage says "cast them out of your life"

Assessing a situation through meditation and prayer and then putting distance between your life and that person to reduce your own risk certainly isn't biblically judgemental. Like I tell my white knight buddy at the gym...you don't have to date a girl in order to help her....aka "that chick needs a bible more than she needs a boyfriend"

You know what - I agree with you completely.

I don't know why you say that you both agree with me and disagree with me. I didn't say that one must deal punishment and vengeance. My own policy is to not waste my time on bringing people I dislike down. Instead I use my time to lift myself up. Vengeance entangles you with that destructive person (maybe even in karmic way, if we mention Buddhism). Better forgive and to move on, thus gaining freedom. If you desire schadenfreude than you will always know that their envy of your success hurts them as much as any suffering that you spared them.

Vengeance and punishment is justified, however, if it is a form of defense against future crimes of a person who is likely to commit those crimes again.

I think the Game and seduction also applies in spirituality. Be bad but don't be evil. Be good but don't be nice.

You and I are usually in agreement, my specific departure from your first statement dealt with a disagreement specifically that religions are watered down and bowing to democratic masters...traditional churches are easy to find in the south in my opinion.

More generally I think I take a more compassionate approach to judgement and assessment. I think people that are predatory or arrogant are really the only ones I'll turn away from. They are really just looking to stir up trouble or talk shit. I have in laws whose lives are total disasters, we don't enable their insanity but still treat them like people. When I was in my 20s the downtown bums knew who I was not because I gave them money (a cigarette sometimes) but because I'd talk to them while I was waiting for the bus etc.

We've all done messed up things and have problems. Its difficult for me to balance that 'brotherhood' of compassion with also keeping lunatics at a safe distance.