Post: #101

He got it wrong. Religion is the opiate of the masses. Atheists are free thinkers who don't buy the story of the invisible man who lives in the sky.

Post: #102

I see the pattern now. You seem to forget that god is omniscient all the time. You seem to forget that omniscient means there is no uncertainty, no "future", no "unknown behavior", no "desires". I gonna put the God is omniscient everywhere you missed it. Please check it when you reply the next time.

Note that "free will" does not exist for an omniscient being. Since god knows everything about everyone, he knows what everyone would do, and how. Hence please stop beating this dead horse. For the record, I agree Adam had free will and technically could skip the apple. What I'm trying to say is that god KNEW in advance all his actions, so this free will doesn't matter at all.

(10-23-2011 02:52 AM)Dash Global Wrote:  Yes God created Adam as an adult fully capable of making his own decisions.

But the future decisions are based on past experience. This is how our brain works. So the Adam's decision was also based on his past experience, which the god put in his brain. Which means the god developed Adam incorrectly.

Quote:Poor analogy imo. How do you know what "programming" God gave Adam. The only programming needed was the ability to understand right and wrong in relation to obedience.

He should be given a lot of programming! You learn how to control your muscles, how to walk, how to talk, even how to eat and drink. You learn what you can eat, and what you cannot. This is not obvious - all my kids tried to eat sand at the playground for a while, and this is common behavior there. Since Adam didn't grow up with parents, all this knowledge was put into his brain by god.

Then there are more subtle things - for example, you learn that when people tell you not to do something, it could be for your own benefits - but it also could be because they never tried it themselves, and do not know the result. You learn that a lot of things you did which you were told not to do - eating sand, drinking from a pool, patting a bee, climb the palm tree - ended up fairly well, and you actually learned something from it. This is how the humans learn.

Quote:Then with free-will decide if you want to obey or disobey. We dont know the barometers of what was programmed into Adam and Eves persona so we cant use that in any argument as it is pure speculation at best.

God is omniscient. YOU do not know, for sure. But the omniscient god knew it! Being omnipotent, he was able to put any kind of programming - he had put SOME kind of programming, right? You do know that even walking is something you LEARN, don't you? And being omniscient he knew what this programming would lead to.

Quote:Free-will is by default "defective". As as a creator you lose control over that which you created.

God is omniscient. "Losing control" means you do not know how the creature would behave, and which decision it would make. Correct? But the god is omniscient, he knows how the creature would behave.

And the god actually programmed the creature, and programmed it the way as its actions are based on specific brain processes - which he also influenced.

There is NO WAY for an omnipotent omniscient god which created the Universe to lose control. This would assume there is another, more powerful force which is above god - and this would mean the god is not omnipotent.

Quote:Granting the power of free-will doesnt make God evil. The only way for God to be evil is if he told Adam to eat from the fruit or if he tricked Adam into eating the fruit. Neither occurred therefore God is not evil.

God is omniscient. This is irrelevant since the god already knew Adam would eat the fruit, no matter what he said. If you disagree with this, then the god is not omniscient.

Quote:Here again knowing =/ choosing, forcing, deciding

What about creating + programming + knowing?
You don't even understand that, but even though you have a free will, the vast majority of your actions are predictable, because they were "programmed" into you by your parents. Hell, the whole game concept is based on social programming and the human behavior being predictable!

Quote:Wrong. Free-will explains this. Wanting something does not mean you dont or can not have something. It means simply you desire a certain action or thing to occur. Yes God can have EVERYTHING/ANYTHING But at the same time he can choose NOT to have EVERYTHING/ANYTHING.

God is omniscient. An omniscient being cannot desire things, as desire implies lack of true knowledge (i.e. you desire to win the lottery because you do not know whether you gonna win or not; after you know you won you do not desire to win that lottery anymore). So it KNOWS whether the thing will occur or not, and where and when.

Quote:You are assuming just because he wants something to happen he would cause / force that action to occur.

This is true as well - assuming the god is good and behaves in a way we describe "good". However this point is not even necessary, since god knows everything, and he created the universe - which means he planned everything at the moment of creation.

Quote:Wrong. There is no uncertainty. Gods wants people to obey / choose him.

Disagree. Then god would create the people the way they'd obey/choose him. Even imperfect, far-from-omnipotent humans usually do a good job when they raise their "creations" in terms of choosing - vast majority of kids like their parents.

Quote:That is in a different context than the one you first presented. Here you are describing God enjoying his creation pre- Adam and Eve eating the fruit and all the suffering that followed.
...
You made it appear if God enjoyed the Adam and Eve eating from the tree and the suffering that followed. Come on now lol

God is omniscient. Again, again and again. God knew Adam would eat that apple, or he is not omniscient.

Quote:Here again God allowing for freewill doesnt make him evil. 1 year olds are babies without the capacity to understand things that an adult could. Bad comparison.

A loving parent must watch for his creation. Even imperfect humans do it. And I can tell you a normally developed 1yo has excellent capacity to understand that you are prohibiting him from doing something! Have you ever been around kids? He KNOWS you are saying him he should not doing that, and from past experience he knows there will be consequences if he still try - but he still will try as soon as you turn away!

Quote:Sure we can study God all we want. What I am saying is studying alone will not unlock every aspect and question in regards to Christianity. Some things are obvious and some things are not.

No, things do not work this way. Either we can study everything about god, or we cannot study nothing at all. Anywhere in between is the same as nothing, as you'll never be able to argue which subjects we can study, and which we cannot.

Post: #103

(10-23-2011 03:31 AM)blurb Wrote:  Let me generate some ideas for you guys to chew on.
All of you guys have the assumption that God is good. What if he's evil?

Then the whole Christian religion loses sense completely.

You know, there is another theory - that god is neutral. He created the universe, and left it alone, and he doesn't care who does what. Sounds good? But in this case any religion makes no sense at all. Why worship a god who doesn't give shit about it?

Quote:What if there is, but He's just evil? Wouldn't you have an even greater incentive to worship an evil God than a good God because the evil God would be more prone to letting you suffer?

This raises a lot of questions. Why would evil god want any worshipers? It is still a weird concept for me why an omnipotent being would actually want any worshipers, but if it is evil, it makes even little sense.

Another problem is that an omnipotent being cannot experience emotions, so a lot of religious concepts make no sense even here.

As I said, there is a huge can of worms. I've been having those discussions during last twenty years, and we just started at the top. I can write a fucking book about it, and it will be larger than "War and Peace".

Post: #104

(10-24-2011 01:24 PM)Farmageddon Wrote:  In the case of Stalin, he actually trained as a seminarian before starting his revolutionary activities.

RESPECT. I actually feel a shame that I forgot about it.
Yes, a young Stalin spent several years in Tiflis Eastern Orthodox Seminary. This is true.

Post: #105

(10-25-2011 03:30 AM)oldnemesis Wrote:  I see the pattern now. You seem to forget that god is omniscient all the time. You seem to forget that omniscient means there is no uncertainty, no "future", no "unknown behavior", no "desires". I gonna put the God is omniscient everywhere you missed it. Please check it when you reply the next time.

I am not forgetting trust me. I agree with most of what you mention above about their being no future, no uncertainty. But the comment that their is no / cant be "desires" is wrong. Even if you know the outcome you can desire for that outcome or another outcome.

Quote:Note that "free will" does not exist for an omniscient being. Since god knows everything about everyone, he knows what everyone would do, and how. Hence please stop beating this dead horse. For the record, I agree Adam had free will and technically could skip the apple. What I'm trying to say is that god KNEW in advance all his actions, so this free will doesn't matter at all.

Here again knowing =/ choosing, forcing, deciding, ect. So if you agree people have free will to think and do as the want. Than how can free-will NOT MATTER if you are choosing whether or not your gonna spend an eternity in hell or and eternity in heaven? Free-will is paramount given rewards or punishments for our actions aka heaven and hell. Only way for you to say our free-will doesnt matter is to claim there is no heaven/hell or that we dont have free-will and God decides where we will end up. Which one is it?

(10-23-2011 02:52 AM)Dash Global Wrote:  But the future decisions are based on past experience. This is how our brain works. So the Adam's decision was also based on his past experience, which the god put in his brain. Which means the god developed Adam incorrectly.

Adams decision was influenced by human "curiosity" and our inherent desire to do as we please / please our-self. This is were free-will kicks and and we can see how strong a person is too with stand the pressures of the world (devil / sin) and choose to obey God. Adam obviously wasnt strong enough to resist the devils temptation.

Sure God could have made humans with without free-will, without the sinful influences, and without the need to serve and believe in something they cant prove or see. But that would defeat the whole purpose of faith and free-will.

Quote:He should be given a lot of programming! You learn how to control your muscles, how to walk, how to talk, even how to eat and drink. You learn what you can eat, and what you cannot. This is not obvious - all my kids tried to eat sand at the playground for a while, and this is common behavior there. Since Adam didn't grow up with parents, all this knowledge was put into his brain by god.

Adam knew what right and wrong was. That was all that was needed. He choose to disobey God. Simple concept.

Quote:God is omniscient. YOU do not know, for sure. But the omniscient god knew it! Being omnipotent, he was able to put any kind of programming - he had put SOME kind of programming, right? You do know that even walking is something you LEARN, don't you? And being omniscient he knew what this programming would lead to.

Yes God could have made Adam without freewill and without the pressures of sin/devil. He didnt. His programming LEAD to people choosing for themselves the thoughts and actions they want. And with that programming only the strong with faith will prosper and make it to heaven and the weak disobedient will suffer in hell for eternity. Sure it didnt take the path God originally laid out but the overall theme is the same.

Quote:God is omniscient. "Losing control" means you do not know how the creature would behave, and which decision it would make. Correct? But the god is omniscient, he knows how the creature would behave.

Im sorry but losing control does not mean not knowing how a creature will behave. Losing control simply mean you are turning over the power of decision, or that you are not in control of some action.

Quote:God is omniscient. This is irrelevant since the god already knew Adam would eat the fruit, no matter what he said. If you disagree with this, then the god is not omniscient.

Hear again knowing =/ choosing, deciding, forcing

Quote:What about creating + programming + knowing?
You don't even understand that, but even though you have a free will, the vast majority of your actions are predictable, because they were "programmed" into you by your parents. Hell, the whole game concept is based on social programming and the human behavior being predictable!

Here again being predictable =/ choosing, deciding, forcing.

Yes we are programmed with a desire to please yourself and to sin. Thats the whole point. Getting to heaven isnt suppose to be easy. It is suppose to be hard. Only the people with a strong faith / relationship and ability suppress their sinful desires will receive the awards. This is where freewill comes into play. We can choose to do as we please and fullfill our sinfull desires or we can choose to disregard those innate desires and obey God.

Quote:God is omniscient. An omniscient being cannot desire things, as desire implies lack of true knowledge (i.e. you desire to win the lottery because you do not know whether you gonna win or not; after you know you won you do not desire to win that lottery anymore). So it KNOWS whether the thing will occur or not, and where and when.

Already explained how you can desire for an outcome even though you already know what that outcome will be. The lottery example is not valid.You should said the man "didnt know whether he would win or not. God knows everything so that is not a good comparison.

This is a real simple concept and ill try to break it down as simplistic as I can.

God created humans.

God granted humans with free-will.

God knows all of our actions/thoughts we will CHOOSE in our lifetime.

God desires we will CHOOSE to obey and have faith in him.

Quote:This is true as well - assuming the god is good and behaves in a way we describe "good". However this point is not even necessary, since god knows everything, and he created the universe - which means he planned everything at the moment of creation.

Yes, he planned everything at the moment of creation. A world in which humans have freewill and choose to obey/follow him or not. Nothing has changed, the plan is still in motion till this day.

Quote:Disagree. Then god would create the people the way they'd obey/choose him. Even imperfect, far-from-omnipotent humans usually do a good job when they raise their "creations" in terms of choosing - vast majority of kids like their parents.

Plenty people do obey/choose him. So your point is moot.

Quote:God is omniscient. Again, again and again. God knew Adam would eat that apple, or he is not omniscient.

What does this have to do with him "enjoying" anything? lol

Quote:A loving parent must watch for his creation. Even imperfect humans do it. And I can tell you a normally developed 1yo has excellent capacity to understand that you are prohibiting him from doing something! Have you ever been around kids? He KNOWS you are saying him he should not doing that, and from past experience he knows there will be consequences if he still try - but he still will try as soon as you turn away!

God does watch over his creation (what I mean by this is, God makes sure a baby is safe from hell till it gets to the age of accountability)

Quote:No, things do not work this way. Either we can study everything about god, or we cannot study nothing at all. Anywhere in between is the same as nothing, as you'll never be able to argue which subjects we can study, and which we cannot.

We can study everything in the bible. But just us studying doesnt mean we will understand everything in the bible.

Post: #106

Free will doesn't matter because the choice has already been made for you. Free will is an illusion if you accept that god is omniscient.

Post: #107

(10-25-2011 08:48 AM)Gmac Wrote:  Free will doesn't matter because the choice has already been made for you. Free will is an illusion if you accept that god is omniscient.

Who made the choice?

And how do you know that for fact?

Post: #108

(10-25-2011 09:10 AM)Dash Global Wrote:  

(10-25-2011 08:48 AM)Gmac Wrote:  Free will doesn't matter because the choice has already been made for you. Free will is an illusion if you accept that god is omniscient.

Who made the choice?

And how do you know that for fact?

Oldnem already went into this.

Post: #109

(10-25-2011 09:26 AM)Gmac Wrote:  

(10-25-2011 09:10 AM)Dash Global Wrote:  

(10-25-2011 08:48 AM)Gmac Wrote:  Free will doesn't matter because the choice has already been made for you. Free will is an illusion if you accept that god is omniscient.

Who made the choice?

And how do you know that for fact?

Oldnem already went into this.

I dont recall no where in Oldnem posts where he said "God or some other thing is MAKING our decisions. He has only been saying God knows our decisions. Two different things. But please find the quote if im mistaken.

Post: #110

So, God created us sick and then orders us under pain of eternal punishment to be well again?

That's not something I want to have anything to do with. Call me crazy.

Post: #111

(10-25-2011 09:42 AM)Farmageddon Wrote:  So, God created us sick and then orders us under pain of eternal punishment to be well again?

That's not something I want to have anything to do with. Call me crazy.

According the Bible God created us perfect. Without sickness, death, or suffering.

Wasnt till after Adam and Eve disobeyed God that the perfect world / life (Garden of Eden) was replaced with the world we know now.

Post: #112

Quote:Wasnt till after Adam and Eve disobeyed God that the perfect world

So we're paying for their sins? Collective and generational punishment? What a hideous and wicked idea. And this is the plan of a perfect God?

You know where else future generations are held responsible for crimes of the past? North Korea.

The idea of generational punishment also negates the very foundation of all morality and ethics, which is personal responsibility. But religious belief (especially the monotheistic faiths) tends to do exactly that.

Quote:According the Bible God created us perfect.

No, according to the Bible, God created Adam and Eve perfect. Not us. We are not Adam and Eve, yet we are held responsible for their decisions.

Post: #113

(10-25-2011 10:07 AM)Farmageddon Wrote:  So we're paying for their sins? Collective and generational punishment? What a hideous and wicked idea. And this is the plan of a perfect God?

You know where else future generations are held responsible for crimes of the past? North Korea.

The idea of generational punishment also negates the very foundation of all morality and ethics, which is personal responsibility. But religious belief (especially the monotheistic faiths) tends to do exactly that.

Yes according to the bible we have to pay for "original sin".

Quote:No, according to the Bible, God created Adam and Eve perfect. Not us. We are not Adam and Eve, yet we are held responsible for their decisions.

We need to define "perfect" in regards to Adam and Eve. Got any scripture on this?

Actually if you want to be technical, perfect in the bible in reference to people most commonly means "without sin".

So actually God does create US perfect, as newborn babies have yet to sin.

Post: #114

I hear hell got some premo pussy... can't wait!

Post: #115

Quote:Yes according to the bible we have to pay for "original sin".

This is precisely the reason why Christianity is rejected by the majority of humanity and is often laughed at when missionaries 'share' the gospel with potential converts.

All morality and ethics must be founded on the notion of 'personal responsibility'. Christianity negates this not only by making us responsible for the actions of others (i.e. Adam and Eve) but it also attempts to absolve us of our own responsibility through the torture and human sacrifice of another human being (i.e. Christ).

Christianity is a hideous, backward, primitive system based on the notion of scapegoating (that sins can be forgiven by placing them on someone else).

Quote:We need to define "perfect" in regards to Adam and Eve.

I was simply parroting your earlier statement for the sake of argument. In my estimation from my reading of the BIble (I went to Christian school) my definition of 'perfection' in the eyes of God would be complete ignorance. Adam & Eve had not tasted from the 'tree of knowledge' therefore were completely ignorant of the true nature of life and the universe.

It's actually kind of funny because it is God who lies to Adam and Eve by telling them they will die on the day they eat the fruit and the serpent who tells the truth by saying they will not die. "for on the day you eat of it you shall surely die." And if the story is correct they didn't die but lived a very long and fruitful life and bore offspring who bore more offspring. Hence, the serpent was telling the truth.

Quote:So actually God does create US perfect, as newborn babies have yet to sin.

But according to your own statement we are born 'having to pay for original sin'. How can we be 'perfect' and yet still responsible for something we didn't do?

So were do the souls of unbaptized children go? The Catholic Church said for thousands of years that the souls of infants went to 'limbo' but actually reneged on the notion of limbo within the past twenty years. And now they're ready to be infallible again.

Ridiculous. And what do you say to the parents of those children who did die in infancy who really believed their children were in limbo? This is so fucking immoral and wicked I can't even see straight while typing.

And what about the souls of people who never hear the Gospel? And what about the people who lived before Jesus was crucified? What happened to them?

Post: #116

(10-25-2011 12:14 PM)Farmageddon Wrote:  

Quote:Yes according to the bible we have to pay for "original sin".

This is precisely the reason why Christianity is rejected by the majority of humanity and is often laughed at when missionaries 'share' the gospel with potential converts.

All morality and ethics must be founded on the notion of 'personal responsibility'. Christianity negates this not only by making us responsible for the actions of others (i.e. Adam and Eve) but it also attempts to absolve us of our own responsibility through the torture and human sacrifice of another human being (i.e. Christ).

Christianity is a hideous, backward, primitive system based on the notion of scapegoating (that sins can be forgiven by placing them on someone else).

Quote:We need to define "perfect" in regards to Adam and Eve.

I was simply parroting your earlier statement for the sake of argument. In my estimation from my reading of the BIble (I went to Christian school) my definition of 'perfection' in the eyes of God would be complete ignorance. Adam & Eve had not tasted from the 'tree of knowledge' therefore were completely ignorant of the true nature of life and the universe.

It's actually kind of funny because it is God who lies to Adam and Eve by telling them they will die on the day they eat the fruit and the serpent who tells the truth by saying they will not die. "for on the day you eat of it you shall surely die." And if the story is correct they didn't die but lived a very long and fruitful life and bore offspring who bore more offspring. Hence, the serpent was telling the truth.

Quote:So actually God does create US perfect, as newborn babies have yet to sin.

But according to your own statement we are born 'having to pay for original sin'. How can we be 'perfect' and yet still responsible for something we didn't do?

So were do the souls of unbaptized children go? The Catholic Church said for thousands of years that the souls of infants went to 'limbo' but actually reneged on the notion of limbo within the past twenty years. And now they're ready to be infallible again.

Ridiculous. And what do you say to the parents of those children who did die in infancy who really believed their children were in limbo? This is so fucking immoral and wicked I can't even see straight while typing.

And what about the souls of people who never hear the Gospel? And what about the people who lived before Jesus was crucified? What happened to them?

Oh but don't forget the way Jesus died... that negates the whole Adam & Eve original sin bit... but only if you're a certain Christianity sect...

I agree 100% with you. People cling to these beliefs because they can't stomach the atheist red pill or don't think as logically. In other words, they think emotionally (like women ). I have more respect for deists, spiritualists, and the like.

Post: #117

(10-25-2011 09:29 AM)Dash Global Wrote:  I dont recall no where in Oldnem posts where he said "God or some other thing is MAKING our decisions. He has only been saying God knows our decisions. Two different things.

This is the same thing. Since the god created the universe, he MADE all the decisions in the moment he created it. So there is no need to MAKE the decisions anymore, they all were made in advance.

Post: #118

(10-25-2011 01:11 PM)Gmac Wrote:  Oh but don't forget the way Jesus died... that negates the whole Adam & Eve original sin bit... but only if you're a certain Christianity sect...

The belief that a cosmic Zombie son who also was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that he put himself on humanity because a rib-woman he created was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

...Yeah, that makes so much fucking sense!

Post: #119

(10-25-2011 12:14 PM)Farmageddon Wrote:  This is precisely the reason why Christianity is rejected by the majority of humanity and is often laughed at when missionaries 'share' the gospel with potential converts.

Christianity is the largest religion in the world coming in at a clip of 29-32% (around 2 BILLION people)

Quote:All morality and ethics must be founded on the notion of 'personal responsibility'. Christianity negates this not only by making us responsible for the actions of others (i.e. Adam and Eve) but it also attempts to absolve us of our own responsibility through the torture and human sacrifice of another human being (i.e. Christ).

You are only held responsible for your own actions. ie you will not be sent to hell or heaven on the basis of anyone's actions but your own.

Quote:Christianity is a hideous, backward, primitive system based on the notion of scapegoating (that sins can be forgiven by placing them on someone else).

Religion has been around since the beginning of time. And guess which Religion has came out on top.

Quote:
I was simply parroting your earlier statement for the sake of argument. In my estimation from my reading of the BIble (I went to Christian school) my definition of 'perfection' in the eyes of God would be complete ignorance. Adam & Eve had not tasted from the 'tree of knowledge' therefore were completely ignorant of the true nature of life and the universe.

Like I already said perfection when in reference to people is defined by "sinless". Adam and Eve were perfect in that regard along with present day newborn babies.

Quote:It's actually kind of funny because it is God who lies to Adam and Eve by telling them they will die on the day they eat the fruit and the serpent who tells the truth by saying they will not die. "for on the day you eat of it you shall surely die." And if the story is correct they didn't die but lived a very long and fruitful life and bore offspring who bore more offspring. Hence, the serpent was telling the truth.

I love the irony in your post. You claim God lied to Adam and Eve but he DIDNT. So where is Adam and Eve now if they did not DIE?!?!?! lol And since Adam and Eve are obviously DEAD, it was the serpent that was lying.

Did you learn anything in Christian School? If you did you would obviously know that there was no DEATH aka humans would live forever in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve disobeyed God thus destroying the Garden bringing about DEATH.

I glad you put your foot in your mouth on that one. Made me chuckle.

Quote:But according to your own statement we are born 'having to pay for original sin'. How can we be 'perfect' and yet still responsible for something we didn't do?

On judgement day we are only held responsible for our own actions. ie You will not be sentenced to hell or held responsible for Adam and Eves transgressions.

Quote:So were do the souls of unbaptized children go? The Catholic Church said for thousands of years that the souls of infants went to 'limbo' but actually reneged on the notion of limbo within the past twenty years. And now they're ready to be infallible again.

They go to heaven, we only got sent to hell for committing sin and rejecting God. A newborn baby can do nether.

Why are you bringing out what the Catholics say as if they are some authority on the matter? lol The Catholic Church is a joke. They dont even believe or follow half of the Bible and had to make their own doctrine to support their views that are DIFFERENT from the bible.

We are discussing Christianity, not Catholism. Lets keep the discussion on track.

Quote:Ridiculous. And what do you say to the parents of those children who did die in infancy who really believed their children were in limbo? This is so fucking immoral and wicked I can't even see straight while typing.

Easy, I tell the parents to stop being ignorant and stop believing and following false doctrines. If you believe in the Christian God (one in the bible) than you are only to go off of what is in the bible. Not scripture and text added by some denomination claiming to be Christian.

I suppose you forgot what the bible says about using / following / believing any other text other than the bible.

Quote:And what about the souls of people who never hear the Gospel? And what about the people who lived before Jesus was crucified? What happened to them?

They will go to heaven.

How can you reject something of which you do not know?

Before Jesus I believe people had to make sacrifices to get to heaven. Im not 100% sure on this though

Post: #120

(10-25-2011 08:22 AM)Dash Global Wrote:  But the comment that their is no / cant be "desires" is wrong. Even if you know the outcome you can desire for that outcome or another outcome.

Nope! If you KNOW the outcome with absolute certainty (and the god does), you CANNOT desire another outcome. This makes absolutely no sense, as there will be no another outcome.

Quote:Here again knowing =/ choosing, forcing, deciding, ect. So if you agree people have free will to think and do as the want.

I mentioned it above right away. You conveniently ignored it, so I'll repeat it again: for the record, I agree Adam had free will and technically could skip the apple. What I'm trying to say is that god KNEW in advance all his actions, so this free will doesn't matter at all.. God created the thing, and he knew the thing he created would not perform as you say he expected. However he did not fix the thing, even though he could. What does it mean?

Still you're repeating your "free will" bullshit again the fifth time. It looks to me like you're completely incapable of logical thinking. Honestly speaking an average Christian I've discussed things with is way reasonable than you. At least they move on, while you beat the same dead horse again and again like a parrot, without saying anything new.

Please stop ever using this phrase, as EVERY TIME you're using it you do it wrong. Save me from that "freewill" bullshit, you have never made it right.

(10-23-2011 02:52 AM)Dash Global Wrote:  Adams decision was influenced by human "curiosity" and our inherent desire to do as we please / please our-self.

Good move, but you stopped too soon. Now go on and think where did this curiosity and inherent desire came from? He was created with them, they were put into his brain by god.

Quote:Adam obviously wasnt strong enough to resist the devils temptation.

Wrong. Adam obviously wasn't created strong enough to resist the devils temptation, this was known in advance. And I can't even see how this could ever be Adam's fault??? The fault here is obviously on the creator.

Quote:Adam knew what right and wrong was. That was all that was needed. He choose to disobey God. Simple concept.

Wrong. He was created to disobey god.

Quote:Yes God could have made Adam without freewill and without the pressures of sin/devil.
He didnt. His programming LEAD to people choosing for themselves the thoughts and actions they want. And with that programming only the strong with faith will prosper and make it to heaven and the weak disobedient will suffer in hell for eternity.

So the creation failed to perform. What does it say about the creator? It sucks.

Quote:Im sorry but losing control does not mean not knowing how a creature will behave. Losing control simply mean you are turning over the power of decision, or that you are not in control of some action.

Bullshit.

Quote:Hear again knowing =/ choosing, deciding, forcing

Bullshit and weaseling.

Quote:Here again being predictable =/ choosing, deciding, forcing.

Here again bullshit and weaseling.

Quote:Yes we are programmed with a desire to please yourself and to sin. Thats the whole point. Getting to heaven isnt suppose to be easy. It is suppose to be hard. Only the people with a strong faith / relationship and ability suppress their sinful desires will receive the awards. This is where freewill comes into play. We can choose to do as we please and fullfill our sinfull desires or we can choose to disregard those innate desires and obey God.

Even more bullshit.

Quote:Already explained how you can desire for an outcome even though you already know what that outcome will be.

Bullshit.

Quote:The lottery example is not valid.You should said the man "didnt know whether he would win or not. God knows everything so that is not a good comparison.

That's why it is bullshit. A man does not know outcome, he can only expect the outcome based in his limited knowledge and probability. An omniscient being knows the outcome, and has no expectations or desires about it. He knew Adam would eat the apple, so he could not desire Adam wouldn't.

Quote:This is a real simple concept and ill try to break it down as simplistic as I can.
1 God created humans.
2 God granted humans with free-will.
3 God knows all of our actions/thoughts we will CHOOSE in our lifetime.
4 God desires we will CHOOSE to obey and have faith in him.

3 and 4 do not match. As I said, you have problems with logical thinking as it should be obvious for anyone who understand the basic logic.

Quote:Yes, he planned everything at the moment of creation. A world in which humans have freewill and choose to obey/follow him or not. Nothing has changed, the plan is still in motion till this day.

Bullshit.

Quote:Plenty people do obey/choose him. So your point is moot.

Bullshit. Even his own creation directly disobeyed him right away. He's a worse creator than me, and he's supposed to be perfect.

Quote:God does watch over his creation (what I mean by this is, God makes sure a baby is safe from hell till it gets to the age of accountability)

Laughable bullshit.

Quote:We can study everything in the bible. But just us studying doesnt mean we will understand everything in the bible.

Nope. I can understand everything in the bible, including that most of it is rubbish which makes no sense at all. It is full of self-contradictions and ambiguous things, the best evidence being the number of different Christian religious based on the bible - there is like 100 of them, they are all different, and each one of them believes they're the only true religion.

Everyone who ever read the bible himself would agree that there is MUCH more logic in a fucking DMV driver handbook than in the bible - which means a DMV employee, who is a low-paid high school graduate, did a better job than apparently omnipotent Christian god. This is just ridiculous.

Post: #121

(10-25-2011 06:50 PM)oldnemesis Wrote:  Nope! If you KNOW the outcome with absolute certainty (and the god does), you CANNOT desire another outcome. This makes absolutely no sense, as there will be no another outcome.

Bullshit. God does not have control over our actions. He turn over that power with the creation of free-will. Since he does not have control over our actions he desires that we obey him. Him knowing or not is redundant.

Quote:I mentioned it above right away. You conveniently ignored it, so I'll repeat it again: for the record, I agree Adam had free will and technically could skip the apple. What I'm trying to say is that god KNEW in advance all his actions, so this free will doesn't matter at all.. God created the thing, and he knew the thing he created would not perform as you say he expected. However he did not fix the thing, even though he could. What does it mean?

Im not ignoring anything. Im addressing EVERY comment you make.

Read my response to the other poster in regards to the "God knows all outcomes so freewill does not matter.

God created people to obey him. There is people obeying God till this day. You seem to be missing this simple logic.

Quote:Still you're repeating your "free will" bullshit again the fifth time. It looks to me like you're completely incapable of logical thinking. Honestly speaking an average Christian I've discussed things with is way reasonable than you. At least they move on, while you beat the same dead horse again and again like a parrot, without saying anything new.

Your still repeating your same misguided logic (aka assuming knowing =/ choosing, deciding, forcing) for the sixth time. I address every new issue you bring up. If I havent please bring it up again and I will gladly address something if I missed it.

(10-23-2011 02:52 AM)Dash Global Wrote:  Good move, but you stopped too soon. Now go on and think where did this curiosity and inherent desire came from? He was created with them, they were put into his brain by god.

Actually if you want to be technical, the curiosity was brought about by the devil.

Quote:Wrong. Adam obviously wasn't created strong enough to resist the devils temptation, this was known in advance. And I can't even see how this could ever be Adam's fault??? The fault here is obviously on the creator.

You already admitted Adam could have skipped out on the apple. Thus you admitted God created Adam with the capacity to CHOOSE another alternative. lol That simple fact alone negates your argument.

Quote:Wrong. He was created to disobey god.

Wrong. He was created to obey God. That is the SOLE PURPOSE of humanity. To follow and obey God.

Quote:So the creation failed to perform. What does it say about the creator? It sucks.

Failed to preform?

Seems to be working just fine to me. People are following and obeying God from the time of Adam and Even till now.

Quote:Bullshit.

An explanation would be more congruent to the discussion. "Bullshit" leaves me little to address lol

Quote:Bullshit and weaseling.

Read my last comment....

Quote:Here again bullshit and weaseling.

Read two comments up.....

Quote:Even more bullshit.

Read three comments up. And you really needed to address my specific comment that was above the one you just made. Nice side stepping

Quote:Bullshit.

Wow your getting good at this lol

Quote:That's why it is bullshit. A man does not know outcome, he can only expect the outcome based in his limited knowledge and probability. An omniscient being knows the outcome, and has no expectations or desires about it. He knew Adam would eat the apple, so he could not desire Adam wouldn't.

Already explained how desire and knowing are not dependent upon one another.

Quote:3 and 4 do not match. As I said, you have problems with logical thinking as it should be obvious for anyone who understand the basic logic.

I love how you say they dont match but dont explain how they dont match. More side stepping.

Quote:Bullshit.

Come on Oldnem. Your better than this.

Quote:Bullshit. Even his own creation directly disobeyed him right away. He's a worse creator than me, and he's supposed to be perfect.

So im lying when I said "Plenty of people follow / obey God?" lol

Now your clearing not thinking logically and are reaching!

Quote:Laughable bullshit.

more side stepping.

Quote:Nope. I can understand everything in the bible, including that most of it is rubbish which makes no sense at all. It is full of self-contradictions and ambiguous things, the best evidence being the number of different Christian religious based on the bible - there is like 100 of them, they are all different, and each one of them believes they're the only true religion.

How can you understand something and in the next sentence say it doesnt make sense at all?

Best evidence being people creating and manipulating people using the largest most credible religion in the world?

That notion is laughable! What other people do has ABSOLUTELY ZERO bearing on the validity of the bible.

Ironically more people "using" Christianity / Bible gives it more credibility as people are much likely to follow something which claims its a Christian religion.

Denominations are a JOKE! Anyone that believes in the bible and puts their faith in anything BUT the bible is FOOLISH.

Quote:Everyone who ever read the bible himself would agree that there is MUCH more logic in a fucking DMV driver handbook than in the bible - which means a DMV employee, who is a low-paid high school graduate, did a better job than apparently omnipotent Christian god. This is just ridiculous.

30% (2 billion people) of world would disagree with you....

ps You need to go back and properly address half of my comments. The side stepping one word "bullshit" rebuttal without ANY explanation will not cut it.

Post: #122

Quote:30% (2 billion people) of world would disagree with you....

Millions used to think the earth was flat too, doesn't prove anything.

Post: #123

(10-25-2011 07:53 PM)Donald Duck Wrote:  

Quote:30% (2 billion people) of world would disagree with you....

Millions used to think the earth was flat too, doesn't prove anything.

I dont remb trying to prove /claim the bible or God was real.

Where did I mention or say that?

Post: #124

Quote:Christianity is the largest religion in the world coming in at a clip of 29-32% (around 2 BILLION people)

So what? The argument from popularity says nothing in regards to the truth or falsity of a claim. Using your logic Catholicism would be the the correct sect of Christianity because of those 2 Billion followers, 1.2 BILLION are Catholic. Which contradicts your later statement that:

Quote:Why are you bringing out what the Catholics say as if they are some authority on the matter? lol The Catholic Church is a joke.

I remind you that of most Christians on earth, the VAST majority are Catholic. The Catholic church is oldest and most influential Christian institution on the face of the planet. They are the ORIGINAL church and trace their ancestry to the apostle Peter himself.

But your logic isn't really logic at all, it's faith. And I'm guessing those 1.2 Billion Catholics (i.e. most Christians) are going to hell, right? So, even most Christians don't make the cut in your backward estimation of Christianity. But it's cool, because Catholics think you are going to hell too because you refuse the sacraments. In my opinion, you guys should just forgive each other; but I'm guessing that would be too much to ask?

Quote:Religion has been around since the beginning of time. And guess which Religion has came out on top.

False. Time only exists after the expansion of space and mass after the big bang about 14 billion years ago. We only have record of life existing for the past billion years. And we know of no other form of life that has religion other than the human species, which has existed for only about 250,000 years. So, religion, in the case of homo sapiens has only existed for a maximum of 250,000 years, which isn't even 1/100th of 1 percent of the entire existence of time itself. Your statement that 'religion has been around since the beginning of time' is demonstrably untrue. As I have just proven. <<That is logic, for your information.

Quote:You are only held responsible for your own actions.

That's not exactly true, because according to Christian theology (which you have a very Protestant pop culture understanding of) if we ask forgiveness from Jesus for transgressions than we are not held responsible for our actions because his suffering and death in the form of a human supersedes our own responsibility for sin. This concept is known as "substitutionary atonement" and I don't expect you to have ever heard that phrase but it is accepted by all branches and denominations of the Christian faith. Christian theology and the concept of vicarious redemption or substitutionary atonement teach that Jesus' death absolves humanity of responsibility if we accept Jesus as the Messiah and submit to him. Hence, if you accept Jesus, you are absolved of your sins and not held responsible for your actions.

Quote:ie you will not be sent to hell or heaven on the basis of anyone's actions but your own.

That's not exactly true according to Christian theology, as well. Because, in Christian theory, I could live a perfect, sinless life and if I had heard about Christianity but refused to accept it as truth, I would be destined for hell. So, I have lived a 'sinless' or 'perfect' life but because I reject Christianity because it is patently absurd, I would be thrown into a lake of eternal hellfire and damnation. I wonder where the Christians think Gandhi ended up? My second grade teacher said "Hell, if he didn't accept Jesus" when I asked her.

Quote:Like I already said perfection when in reference to people is defined by "sinless". Adam and Eve were perfect in that regard along with present day newborn babies.

How can newborn babies be 'sinless' when they are saddled with the stain of 'original sin'? Or does 'original sin' only kick in when they actually commit a sin?

Is a 4 year old child who has been born into an Islamic family and has coveted one of his playmates toys destined for hell because he broke a Christian commandment, has the ability to reason, has most likely has heard of Christianity, yet didn't convert and accept Jesus? According to your previous statements, I'm guessing that 4 year old child would be hell-bound. That's pretty twisted, in my opinion.

Quote:You claim God lied to Adam and Eve but he DIDNT.

Yes, he did. God claimed they would die on the day they tasted of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. I'll repost the EXACT quote from Genesis here since you conveniently overlooked it the first go round:

this is God speaking to Adam and Eve:
"for ON THE DAY you eat of it (the tree of knowledge) you shall surely die"

The serpent told Eve she wouldn't die if she ate the fruit and she didn't, she lived a long ass life (something like 700 more years). So, the story appears to vindicate the serpent and condemn God, in the sense that neither Adam, nor Eve died on the day they ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge. #readingcomprehension101

Quote:So where is Adam and Eve now if they did not DIE?!?!?!

This may come as a complete shock to you, so brace yourself: THE STORY OF ADAM AND EVE IS A FUCKING CREATION MYTH. THEY WERE NEVER REAL PEOPLE.

Every culture has creation myths and this is simply the Jewish version. The story of Adam and Eve has its foundations in Egyptian, Babylonian, Canaanite and several other Bronze Age Mediterranean cutlures creation myths. Once again, having most likely only ever having read the Bible (and I am beginning to doubt very seriously if you have ever even read that) and none of the others, I wouldn't expect you know or understand this very basic historical fact.

There is a fascinating course that Yale University offers online (FOR FREE!!) that will help clear up a lot of your misunderstanding of the foundations of your religion. The link to their course on the history of the Old Testament is here:

Introduction to the Old Testament: http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/in...rew-bible/

and here is the course on the New Testament, for good measure: http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/in...testament/

Quote:Did you learn anything in Christian School?

Yes, plenty of lies, half truths, and a shitload of judgmental behavior. I learned a infinitely more about Christianity when I took the two courses from Yale University that I posted above.

Quote:If you did you would obviously know that there was no DEATH aka humans would live forever in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve disobeyed God thus destroying the Garden bringing about DEATH.

Once again, that's not exactly clear reading the story of the garden of eden. What's implied more is that the Adam and Eve simply lacked the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil and death before they tasted of the fruit. The book of Genesis never states directly that Adam and Eve would have lived forever, it simply states they didn't know anything or were completely ignorant of the nature of good, evil, and death BEFORE tasting the fruit of the tree of knowledge.

And I'm not surprised that the Christian religion thinks "knowledge" of the true nature of the universe is a bad thing. Christianity has been suppressing inquiries into truth for its entire existence (Galileo, anyone?) and every scientific and medical advancement has been made in the teeth of religious opposition.

Quote:I glad you put your foot in your mouth on that one. Made me chuckle.

With all due respect, you are completely outclassed in this argument, your ad hominem attacks are doing you no favors.

Quote:They go to heaven, we only got sent to hell for committing sin and rejecting God. A newborn baby can do nether.

I'm going to need a scriptural reference where you can show me a verse in the Bible that says the souls of unbaptized children go to heaven?

You don't even understand the basic Christian theological concept of the afterlife, which is not that souls go to heaven or hell after death but that bodies will await the final resurrection and then will be judged on the day of judgement. This concept of dying and going to heaven or hell for all eternity has much more to do with Platonic philosophy and medieval doctrines than with Christian theology. But once again, I wouldn't expect you to understand this very basic Christian concept.

Quote:We are discussing Christianity, not Catholism. Lets keep the discussion on track.

Catholicism is the largest denomination of Christianity. But they're going to hell because they believe in false doctrines and you have it all figured out, right?

Quote:Easy, I tell the parents to stop being ignorant and stop believing and following false doctrines.

I remind you there are about 30,000 denominations of Christianity, so even if it was the 'correct' religion, whatever that means, your chances of choosing the right sect are only about 30,000 to 1. And as a former professional gambler, I can tell you, without equivocation, that those odds are astonishingly horrendous.

Quote:If you believe in the Christian God (one in the bible) than you are only to go off of what is in the bible. Not scripture and text added by some denomination claiming to be Christian.

Do you not understand that there isn't "A Bible" there are literally THOUSANDS of different Bibles, all with different canonical lists of books they consider to be worthy of addition and with other books taken out. Take the King James version (which I'm assuming you consider the 'correct' version). That version is only about 400-500 years old and during the Protestant reformation all the books in the Old Testament that were originally written in Greek were removed and only the books originally written in Hebrew were retained. The Catholics on the other hand (whose canonical list is much older than yours) still include the books written in Greek. The Eastern orthodox Bible includes many books both Catholic and Protestant consider heretical.

So, what Bible are you talking about? Because there isn't just one version as I have just proven. But you don't even understand this basic fact which is why it is nearly impossible to have an intellectually feasible conversation with you. You understand very little about the real history of your own religion and its foundations yet are still convinced you are correct. It's fucking sad, dude.

Quote:I suppose you forgot what the bible says about using / following / believing any other text other than the bible.

What Bible????!

Quote:They will go to heaven.

I need a scriptural reference. Sounds like a complete fairy tale or convenient out to me.

Quote:How can you reject something of which you do not know?

Easy:

WHAT CAN BE ASSERTED WITHOUT PROOF CAN BE DISMISSED WITHOUT PROOF.

Quote:Before Jesus I believe people had to make sacrifices to get to heaven. Im not 100% sure on this though

Judaism doesn't really have a concept of an afterlife, when the ground closes over you, that's pretty much it. FYI.

Post: #125

(10-25-2011 09:37 PM)Farmageddon Wrote:  So what? The argument from popularity says nothing in regards to the truth or falsity of a claim. Using your logic Catholicism would be the the correct sect of Christianity because of those 2 Billion followers, 1.2 BILLION are Catholic. Which contradicts your later statement that:

I dont ever remember debating whether or not the Bible was true or not..

Quote:I remind you that of most Christians on earth, the VAST majority are Catholic. The Catholic church is oldest and most influential Christian institution on the face of the planet. They are the ORIGINAL church and trace their ancestry to the apostle Peter himself.

And this is relevant how?

Quote:But your logic isn't really logic at all, it's faith. And I'm guessing those 1.2 Billion Catholics (i.e. most Christians) are going to hell, right? So, even most Christians don't make the cut in your backward estimation of Christianity. But it's cool, because Catholics think you are going to hell too because you refuse the sacraments. In my opinion, you guys should just forgive each other; but I'm guessing that would be too much to ask?

I dont know where they are going to be honest. Let me guess the sacraments that are in Catholic doctrine and not the Bible? lol

Quote:False. Time only exists after the expansion of space and mass after the big bang about 14 billion years ago. We only have record of life existing for the past billion years. And we know of no other form of life that has religion other than the human species, which has existed for only about 250,000 years. So, religion, in the case of homo sapiens has only existed for a maximum of 250,000 years, which isn't even 1/100th of 1 percent of the entire existence of time itself. Your statement that 'religion has been around since the beginning of time' is demonstrably untrue. As I have just proven. <<That is logic, for your information.

Not false. Atleast in the logical understood concept of biblical time ie Adam and Eve till now. Sorry maybe I should have explained it more clearer for you. We are debating the Bible / Christianity right? lol

Quote:That's not exactly true, because according to Christian theology (which you have a very Protestant pop culture understanding of) if we ask forgiveness from Jesus for transgressions than we are not held responsible for our actions because his suffering and death in the form of a human supersedes our own responsibility for sin. This concept is known as "substitutionary atonement" and I don't expect you to have ever heard that phrase but it accepted by all branches and denominations of the Christian faith. Christian theology and the concept of vicarious redemption or substitutionary atonement teach that Jesus' death absolves humanity of responsibility if we accept Jesus as the Messiah and submit to him. Hence, if you accept Jesus, you are not held responsible for your own actions.

It is true.

I dont go off of any "branches" of faith.

There is two way to look at forgiveness. The asking for forgiveness when one is saved where he ACCEPTS and puts FAITH in God thus allowing him into heaving were as his past, present, and future sins are forgiven in the context it will grant him entry into heaven.

The next way of asking for forgiveness is down on an individual or timely basis. So for a truly saved person, even though their sins have been forgiven in a sense that they are forgiven and made new again. Once reborn you just can got go on sinning without asking for forgiveness for each sin committed. ie We will still be held accountable for all of our actions. Good and bad.

All substitutionary atonement atonement is, is Christ being the substitute / sacrifice to allow us to enter the kingdom of God. In other words his blood was shed and not ours.

Lol your last line is a joke. Please show me some scripture where God says our actions after we get saved "DO NOT MATTER". Or that we can continue sinning and "NOT BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE".

Quote:That's not exactly true according to Christian theology, as well. Because, in Christian theory, I could live a perfect, sinless life and if I had heard about Christianity but refused to accept it as truth, I would be destined for hell. So, I have lived a 'sinless' or 'perfect' life but because I reject Christianity because it is patently absurd, I would be thrown into a lake of eternal hellfire and damnation. I wonder where the Christians think Gandhi ended up? My second grade teacher said "Hell, if he didn't accept Jesus" when I asked her.

It is true. You dont dont see or know it. Thats ok ill explain.

First off it is IMPOSSIBLE for you or anyone to live a "sinless" life. Have you even read the bible?

So you think you can live a life where you NEVER ONCE cussed, stole, looked at a woman in lust? I only named 3 sins. And there is ALOT more.

Take a look and maybe you can see what you describe is impossible.

http://www.amazingbible.org/Documents/Bi...part_6.htm

The bible CLEARLY states no man is / will be perfect besides Jesus. haha

So your claim / point is moot either way.

Quote:How can newborn babies be 'sinless' when they are saddled with the stain of 'original sin'? Or does 'original sin' only kick in when they actually commit a sin?

They are not saddled with any sin. Orginal Sin is primarily in context to why there is no prefect world any more ie Garden of Evil.

As far as getting into heaven or hell, that is completely dependent upon your own actions. ie We are only held accountable for our actions on Judgement Day.

Quote:Is a 4 year old child who has been born into an Islamic family and has coveted one of his playmates toys destined for hell because he broke a Christian commandment, has the ability to reason, has most likely has heard of Christianity, yet didn't convert and accept Jesus? According to your previous statements, I'm guessing that 4 year old child would be hell-bound. That's pretty twisted, in my opinion.

It would depend on when is the actual age of accountability. Which I can assure you isnt 4. lol

So your wrong. According to my previous statements the FOUR year old child would go to heaven.

Quote:Yes, he did. God claimed they would die on the day they tasted of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. I'll repost the EXACT quote from Genesis here since you conveniently overlooked it the first go round:

You are assuming God meant literally on that day they will die. Never assume.

Quote:The serpent told Eve she wouldn't die if she ate the fruit and she didn't, she lived a long ass life (something like 700 more years). So, the story appears to vindicate the serpent and condemn God, in the sense that neither Adam, nor Eve died on the day they ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge. #readingcomprehension101

So Eve didnt die? Well if she died that the serpent did lie to her.

Quote:This may come as a complete shock to you, so brace yourself: THE STORY OF ADAM AND EVE IS A FUCKING CREATION MYTH. THEY WERE NEVER REAL PEOPLE.

This may come to a complete shock to you, so brace yourself:

IM NOT DEBATING WHETHER THE BIBLE IS TRUE OR NOT.

Quote:Once again, that's not exactly clear reading the story of the garden of eden. What's implied more is that the Adam and Eve simply lacked the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil and death before they tasted of the fruit. The book of Genesis never states directly that Adam and Eve would have lived forever, it simply states they didn't know anything or were completely ignorant of the nature of good, evil, and death BEFORE tasting the fruit of the tree of knowledge.

Your def gonna have to bring some scripture into this one.

Death came THROUGH SIN.

Romans 5:12 which states, "Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin."

Quote:With all due respect, you are completely outclassed in this argument, your ad hominem attacks are doing you no favors.

Im not the one who claimed Adam and Eve didnt die. That was you buddy. They certainly did die.

Quote:I'm going to need a scriptural reference where you can show me a verse in the Bible that says the souls of unbaptized children go to heaven?

Will do. Got to get ready for work but ill find it for you when Im finished.

Quote:You don't even understand the basic Christian theological concept of the afterlife, which is not that souls go to heaven or hell after death but that bodies will await the final resurrection and then be judged on the day of judgement. This concept of dying and going to heaven or hell for all eternity has much more to do with Platonic philosophy than with Christianity. But once again, I wouldn't expect you to understand this very basic Christian concept.

You are assuming you know in what time frame Im talking about heaven and hell. I wasnt talking about the time directly after we die where God has vet to RETURN.

Quote:Catholicism is the largest denomination of Christianity. But they're going to hell because they believe in false doctrines and you have it all figured out, right?

Like I said im not the one to judge.

Quote:I remind you there are about 30,000 denominations of Christianity, so even if it was the 'correct' religion, whatever that means, your chances of choosing the right sect are only about 30,000 to 1. And as a former professional gambler, I can tell you, without equivocation, that those odds are astonishingly horrendous.

That why you dont choose any denominations of Christianity. You follow the bible and the bible alone and say you are a Christian. Not a Catholic.

Quote:Do you not understand that there isn't "A Bible" there are literally THOUSANDS of different Bibles, all with different canonical lists of books they consider to be worthy of addition and with other books taken out. Take the King James version (which I'm assuming you consider the 'correct' version). That version is only about 400-500 years old and during the Protestant reformation all the books in the Old Testament that were originally written in Greek were removed and only the books originally written in Hebrew were retained. The Catholics on the other hand (whose canonical list is much older than yours) still include the books written in Greek. The Eastern orthodox Bible includes many books both Catholic and Protestant consider heretical.

Im talking about the one that denominations where built off of.

Quote:I need a scriptural reference. Sounds like a complete fairy tale or convenient out to me.

No prob. I will get the scripture for you.

Quote:Easy:

WHAT CAN BE ASSERTED WITHOUT PROOF CAN BE DISMISSED WITHOUT PROOF.

Proof and Faith are not compatible.