Post: #1

Do they get mad?

I've been told that's the difference between a guy on the street and a professional.

The pro, of course, doesn't like it, but he keeps his emotions in check.
The average joe gets stark raving mad, loses his form, and turns a fist fight into a wrestling match.

WIA

Post: #2

"everyone has a plan untill they get punched in the face" Mike Tyson

Post: #3

I never fought professionally, but I can tell you there is a difference in mindset. One of my first lessons was taught to me one of my first time's sparring. My partner was a 2nd degree black belt, and I had been training at most a year. This guy was lightning fast and he was working me pretty good. I got mad, made a mistake that ended with his foot touching my head. Fortunately for me, he had the control to stop his kick and didn't follow through.

There is a psychological difference between getting hit on the body, and getting hit in the head/face. The only person I can think of that liked getting hit in the face is Frank Shamrock. The difference between the trained and the untrained is the trained learn how to deal with it. Fighters also have a tougher chin than the average person.

Post: #4

How do some fighters have tougher chins than others?

Post: #5

How do some guys run faster, jump higher, kick harder, throw further, etc.? You can toughen the chin by strengthening the neck muscles, and learning how to take a punch. However, some guys are just tougher than others. It's not who hits the hardest, but who can take the hardest hit.

Post: #6

A punch to the face makes anyone angry. The difference is in the reaction. MMA fighters and Boxers have different reactions to the anger imparted by training. Getting punched in the face is always unpleasant, but it is possible to train more productive reactions to it.

Post: #7

That's one of the advantages touted for training in full-contact disciplines like boxing, Muay Thai, MMA, full contact karate, etc is that you get accustomed to feeling what it's like to get hit, so you keep your cool better in a real-life self-defense situation.

Post: #8

For me, no. I don't get mad at my opponent. I have gotten mad at myself, however, because I got hit. Not a professional but have trained mma/boxing for a while.

Post: #9

(08-06-2015 09:49 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  Do they get mad?

I've been told that's the difference between a guy on the street and a professional.

The pro, of course, doesn't like it, but he keeps his emotions in check.
The average joe gets stark raving mad, loses his form, and turns a fist fight into a wrestling match.

WIA

Obviously no one likes getting popped in the face. Getting paid a large sum certainly helps the pro take the punishment.

Here's my stance on the anger levels of a punch on the street vs a pro bout: the bout is between professionals. Contentious professional encounters that may seem hate filled and bitter are usually the simple result of the necessary "me vs him" for victory. This is true in sports, pro fighting, even law. I was surprised at the apparent animosity displayed between the prosecution and defense in court to drinking and bitching together about a judge or CC or client or jury or whatever. There is a professional respect and everything is just part of the job.

Getting hit on the street is entirely different. You got hit for a few reasons. You were being an asshole. The other being was being an asshole. Or the other person is a complete violent, degenerate. In any case, there is legitimate hate between the people involved. No one is getting paid, it's not part of the job. Everything is out of anger or hate or simply sociopathic behavior. Disliking the situation when an action occurs will always make you hate that action more.

Think about it. I doubt anyone on this board makes their living fighting. But think back to when you and your dumb friends strapped on some dingy boxing gloves and started pummeling each other. You were swinging hard and a bloody nose seemed inevitable, but did you or your friends get seriously mad? Probably not, because hate wasn't the driving force.

Post: #10

Not really. Like the others, I've not fought professionally, but after thousands of rounds of getting punched in the face, you just stop thinking about it. When I get punched in the face, I don't 'think' anything, I have ingrained, instinctive responses, all of which involve putting a more severe beating (or attempting to at least) on the guy that punched me. The time between getting punched and taking the fight back to the guy who punched you is so small (if I'm doing it right, my first punch is landing before the punch he has thrown has traveled back along the path it came from) that there's really no time for thinking, there's only 'do'.

It's one of the great things about learning to fight, it takes all the anger out of the immediate response. That's not to say that if someone hit you 'on da street', you wouldn't deck him and then be fucking pissed off that the little scrote swung at you, but the window for effective response is extremely small, and learning a fighting sport teaches you to capitalise on that window whilst it is open, before you let emotion or pain get in the way.

Of course, if you're sucker punched, or caught cold, you may just be snoozing after that and not pissed off at all.

Post: #11

(08-06-2015 10:32 PM)xcfastdude Wrote:  How do some fighters have tougher chins than others?

Probably things like skull weight and brain size / position. I'm told that strikes to the chin are effective because they shake the brain the hardest. The heavier the skull, and the less easily the brain is shaken (or physiologically sensitive it is to shaking), the less effect strikes have on them.

Post: #12

I think most grow out of the getting mad stage fairly quickly.

I think frustration is more common.

Post: #13

(08-07-2015 04:43 AM)RioNomad Wrote:  I think most grow out of the getting mad stage fairly quickly.

I think frustration is more common.

This is very true. I've come out of sparring sessions having to try hard not to cry, not through pain, but through the sheer frustration of being totally outclassed. Sometimes, I'd literally come out with my chest constricted, my face flushed, and having to hold back the tears that were already making their way to my eyes. When your fighting, your pride means so much to you, and to have someone ride roughshod over it can hurt far worse than a busted face. This has happened to me as a grown man, within the last 2 years. I was sparring a guy who'd been a 2 time national champion, had fought professionally, and had been training since before I was in trousers, so I had no right to expect to run rings around him. But my pride still smarts to this day from being comprehensively outclassed.

Post: #14

(08-07-2015 04:52 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  

(08-07-2015 04:43 AM)RioNomad Wrote:  I think most grow out of the getting mad stage fairly quickly.

I think frustration is more common.

This is very true. I've come out of sparring sessions having to try hard not to cry, not through pain, but through the sheer frustration of being totally outclassed. Sometimes, I'd literally come out with my chest constricted, my face flushed, and having to hold back the tears that were already making their way to my eyes. When your fighting, your pride means so much to you, and to have someone ride roughshod over it can hurt far worse than a busted face. This has happened to me as a grown man, within the last 2 years. I was sparring a guy who'd been a 2 time national champion, had fought professionally, and had been training since before I was in trousers, so I had no right to expect to run rings around him. But my pride still smarts to this day from being comprehensively outclassed.

One of the things about starting off training/sparring in martial arts is you quickly learn there is an almost infinite ladder of people better than you. It really humbles you

Post: #15

(08-07-2015 04:52 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  

(08-07-2015 04:43 AM)RioNomad Wrote:  I think most grow out of the getting mad stage fairly quickly.

I think frustration is more common.

This is very true. I've come out of sparring sessions having to try hard not to cry, not through pain, but through the sheer frustration of being totally outclassed. Sometimes, I'd literally come out with my chest constricted, my face flushed, and having to hold back the tears that were already making their way to my eyes. When your fighting, your pride means so much to you, and to have someone ride roughshod over it can hurt far worse than a busted face. This has happened to me as a grown man, within the last 2 years. I was sparring a guy who'd been a 2 time national champion, had fought professionally, and had been training since before I was in trousers, so I had no right to expect to run rings around him. But my pride still smarts to this day from being comprehensively outclassed.

I've had this same experience with wrestling. I was at practice in college and was drilling with a much bigger, much stronger guy. Technically I was slightly better, and I had a bigger gas tank, but when we both decided to go aggressive he always had the upper hand. One practice I got extremely frustrated that he always used his strength advantage to win, so when I started from the bottom position I jerked my head back into his face. Bad idea. He clubbed the back of my neck with an elbow that caused me to see stars and the coach to blow the whistle and get between us. Don't think it would have ended well if the coach hadn't torn us apart, but after that there was a mutual respect between us. Funny how animosities in practice work.

Post: #16

Context is everything.

If I enlist in the military and arrive at basic training and some guy with a funny hat comes over and starts screaming at me with our face inches apart, I'm going to just stand there and take it and not move a muscle.

If some ahole does the same on the street, I'm liable to choke slam him or worse.

Want to make an MMA fighter mad?

Walk up to him in a grocery store and punch him in the face.

Post: #17

While I prefer to end streetfights before I actually take any damage getting hit in the face while fighting or sparring is inevitable. Once I take one to the face, especially the nose, I immediately get completely focused on the violent matter at hand. When you feel the rush of blood, that numb feeling, the silence or the ringing you can feel your whole face get hot. From that point on I have one thing on my mind and that is to cause damage to my opponent quickly. Many pros have their trainers or actually strike their faces themselves before a fight. UFC veteran Clay Guida is known for his brother slapping the dog shit out of him several times right before entering the ring. I have seen BJ Penn and Diego Sanchez do the self face strike, pre-fight. The adrenaline dump and fight or flight response that is generated by being hit with a solid punch (not a light jab) is impossible to describe it must be experienced. There is also an evolutionary psychological reason why we tend to strike the face, not only does it cause shame and embarrassment to the victim but the mouth is normally where the insult or reason for the altercation originated. Also the victim must show the damage to the world by being largely unable to disguise the damage to their face, it essentially becomes the calling card of the victor. "Damn!" recoiling in horror "He fucked you up!" Anyone who has ever been open hand slapped knows how embarrassing and humiliating it feels. As a trained fighter I know I just cant hit a woman or hipster just because they are getting out of line, but as Sean "The Don" Connery has opined sometimes a firm slap is exactly the right response to someone who needs a quick ego check. I have also been led to believe as well that an open hand attack is less legally severe as a closed fist strike.

Post: #18

Like most guys have said, it just becomes a reaction. Once you get over the rightness or wrongness of getting punched in the face, you learn to just focus on eliminating the threat.

When I did amateur Muay Thai my instructor always played Bob Marley, so I would hear "One love, one heart, let's get together and feel alright," while I got punched in the face. Great way to learn to fight regardless of emotional state.

After awhile it becomes more of a hunger, because unlike minor trangressions where you are limited in using physical force, when someone punches you in the face it gives you the greenlight to put them down.

(08-07-2015 04:29 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

(08-06-2015 10:32 PM)xcfastdude Wrote:  How do some fighters have tougher chins than others?

Probably things like skull weight and brain size / position. I'm told that strikes to the chin are effective because they shake the brain the hardest. The heavier the skull, and the less easily the brain is shaken (or physiologically sensitive it is to shaking), the less effect strikes have on them.

You hit the jaw because it's the easiest way to twist the brain stem, which interrupts the neurons for lights out.

Post: #19

(08-07-2015 12:02 AM)SexualHarrasmentPanda Wrote:  For me, no. I don't get mad at my opponent. I have gotten mad at myself, however, because I got hit. Not a professional but have trained mma/boxing for a while.

I'm the same. I feel no animosity towards my opponent, he's doing exactly what he's supposed to do.

I get angry at myself for having my hands too low.

Post: #20

(08-06-2015 10:32 PM)xcfastdude Wrote:  How do some fighters have tougher chins than others?

It's not necessarily that fighters have tougher chins; it's that guys with tough chins are more likely end up being fighters, especially if they're any good at it and double especially if they are elite. So they're self-selecting themselves.

I suspect there's also a tesosterone link here. Men with more testosterone are shown to have stronger, broader faces that are more resistant to punishment - in our more primal days this meant less chance of getting your face broken when battling it out for a piece of ass.

It doesn't take much of a logical leap to imagine many fighters are high-testosterone guys to begin with - not to mention their lifestyle promotes high levels of testosterone production even further.

Finally, it's a lot easier to knock someone out who doesn't know how to take a punch (assuming that by tougher chin we're talking harder to knock out). Someone who has taken their share of punches, in a ring or not, will clench their jaw before they get hit. A loose jaw, common when some idiot is hollering at an "opponent" two feet away from him like an inexperienced fighter might do, is going to get a guy knocked out or broken.

EDIT: I misread your post. I thought you asked why fighters would have tougher chins than non-fighters. But again, some guys can just take a punch a lot better than others or their face is more built for it.

Post: #21

A big part of it is how ready you are. I saw a London middleweight champion I used to train with rocked by a girl (boxer) who threw a play punch at him when he wasn't looking. This is a guy who has wins in the amateurs against several big name fighters that have fought for world titles, one of whom has won one. He is notorious for being a tough bloke, with a big punch, and a 110lb chick nearly sat him on his arse.

The punches you don't see are the ones that get you by and large. If you see the punch coming you can bite down hard on your mouthguard, which shortens the lever that the force of someone's fist is exerted on, and ensures more energy is required to turn the head, meaning it doesn't turn as violently. Equally, anecdotally, things like neck length probably play a part. Guys with shorter, thicker necks seem to be harder to knock out. Obviously if you're massively outgunned and you eat a clean one you might go even if you do everything right.

Post: #22

(08-07-2015 02:25 PM)H1N1 Wrote:  A big part of it is how ready you are.

H1N1 has a good point. My trainer was sparring a mutual gym friend. They were just doing some work. My trainer just caught him with a hook. It was wasn't some earth shattering hook. But our mutual friend just didn't see it. It caught him clean. He wobbled. Our mutual friend has experience and can take a shot, but he never saw it coming.

Post: #23

Related to combat sports, another thing that affects ability to take a punch is fluid in the head, some of which is lost in weight cutting (if you've ever cut weight you've probably gotten the headache before). So guys who had a "hard weight cut" before a fight become more susceptible to getting knocked out. Now, this is interesting b/c you'll hear of guys "losing their chin" as they get older, implying the more you've gotten knocked out the more susceptible you become to getting knocked out again. While there's probably some truth to this, the reality too is that as a fighter gets older, it typically becomes harder and harder to cut weight (fat sticks better so they have to drain more fluid to make weight). The implication is that perhaps increased frequency of getting knocked out is a result of harder weight cuts (depletion of fluid) and not necessarily due to previous knockouts. Just food for though.

Post: #24

Also important is the different type of knock outs. One mentioned earlier is the twisting of the brain stem knockout caused by hooks or uppercuts. Another type is caused rom your brain accelerating from the punch and crashing into your skull, this is the type of knockouts usually occurring from straight punches. These knockouts are often exacerbated by extreme weight cuts which deplete the cerebral fluid that protects the brain; as said before. Then you have flash or equilibrium based knockouts which usually occur from an overhand punch to the temple. In the last case the brain doesn't really shut down it just loses the ability to keep the body balanced and the fighter falls. A lot of punch resistance comes down to genetics, guys with thick short necks and blocky heads with a thick brow are notoriously hard to knock out. It's always the punch you can't see that floors you. Usually veteran fighters who get chinny like Roy Jones or Chuck Lidell its because they really get knocked out viciously like Tarver Jones, Lidell Evans or Marquez Pacquiao then seem to be ever more susceptible every time out after that. I don't know how many times I can keep watching Roy Jones Jr get stiffed and starched.

Post: #25

On this thread from a while back TK discussed chins and how to take a punch etc.
/thread-42595-page-2.html

I quoted below two of his comments.

(11-21-2014 09:50 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

(11-21-2014 02:29 PM)Zep Wrote:  

(11-21-2014 08:16 AM)Gnu Wrote:  This guy is ok, but if he'd taken lessons from Little Dark then all those dudes would have been dropped, not a measly three or four.

Is this him?

(11-21-2014 08:21 AM)TravelerKai Wrote:  Notice the quick foot switches and quarter pivots? He aimed right for the chin. Untrained people have weak chins. It causes the muscles and vertebrae in the neck to short circuit blackout at c1, which is the top vertebrae piece at the top of the neck, that is the gateway for your eyesight and bodily functions to work together. That is why people drop like potato sacks upon getting knocked out. Those 2 guys were out cold before they even hit the ground. He did not need the assistance of their heads to bounce off the concrete to finish them. That is good power.

Cool breakdown. I never understood how some punches i've witness in the UFC shut a person down immediately.

I've often thought about live/street situations and wondered what the best strategy would be. At first I figured punching, then I saw videos like this


at :33 seconds the bus driver uppercuts her so hard, and she is still conscious afterwards?? then there are the fights at McDonalds and Dennys all over youtube where black women are getting punched hard, and they just don't blink.

So, your answer will likely be 'the punchers are not pro boxers' which I understand. The issue I have with this is you can kill someone with one of those boxers punches. I'm not interested in risking killing someone, also, if the punch isn't perfect, like most punches, wouldn't knowing close grappling be a better option in shutting down wild animals like the one in the subway? 8-Ball ( lol, '8-ball' ) slaps that girl HARD, and she shakes it off and more bullshit ensues. What if he had done an old fashioned greco-roman take down, or, zeroed in on one arm, trapped and twisted it. Those beasts in McDonalds seemingly oblivious to punches could not resist a simple trip. Just fake a right cross come in low, place left leg behind hers and push over.

In the original video, I agree the boxer had no choice but to act extremely swiftly and knock the guys out, but man, he risked killing a guy with that accuracy and power.

The reason why she and that subway girl are still conscious could be numerous.

1. The bus driver/8 ball did not hit her all that hard.

2. Her neck muscles were strong enough to absorb most of the blow.

3. She blacked out (short circuited) for a brief period of time but recovered quickly. (Think about collisions in football)



When someone blacks out, the reason why is because the pressure from the blow disrupts the part of the brain (in the lower bottom/back area) that controls eyesight. That is why the neck muscle's ability to absorb impact is important to prevent getting knocked out.

Pro level boxers are in lots of ways no different than many other martial artists on high levels. Each try to end a fight as quickly as possible. As you get older or gain experience, you start trying to find shortcuts or ways to be more efficient. Fights feel slower and you adjust to the speed of the moments better. That allows you to hit pressure points and special areas of the body with more precision than a beginner or moderate level fighter. Think of a parallel between basketball players. As they get older they all try to develop a good jumpshot. Charging hard into the paint constantly may make for a short career. Boxers are no different. Pros and older ones know how to punch all the sweet spots. The kidney, the liver, the 2 areas on the diaphragm that help control breathing. They may have a big glove on, but their middle knuckles can feel the right spots, because of the amount of experience. Either coaches teach it to them, or they figure it out on their own. Watch a Floyd fight and you can easily see he deliberately targets specific spots when he body shots.

The risk of killing someone is actually way lower than you think. Knock outs are alot like rear naked choke outs. People eventually recover within 3 mins or so.



There are a couple ways to end up getting short-circuited. You see that trigeminal nerve in the photo? If hit on the chin, ear, jawline, hard enough to cause that nerve to lose function that will cause your eyes to black out. Keep in mind this does not have anything to do with concussions and aneurysms. Once that nerve regains function, your eyes will follow suit.

Concussions, aneurysms, and other serious blunt force head trauma is what can kill someone if blows are repeated over and over after a knockout. It is possible to 1 hit kill someone with a punch but the factors are too many to calculate. Aneurysms are the most deadly ways to die from 1 punch. A person at risk of one, even falling off a stool will die suddenly from hitting their head on the ground. The bad thing is that someone can be vulnerable of that, no one know it, then if they get into a light scuffle and then die, someone is getting charged with manslaughter at the minimum. That risk is relatively low, but still a risk.

(11-21-2014 10:14 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

(11-21-2014 04:45 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

(11-21-2014 08:21 AM)TravelerKai Wrote:  Notice the quick foot switches and quarter pivots? He aimed right for the chin. Untrained people have weak chins. It causes the muscles and vertebrae in the neck to short circuit blackout at c1, which is the top vertebrae piece at the top of the neck, that is the gateway for your eyesight and bodily functions to work together.

TK,

Nice post, thanks for the insight. Slight tangent, any ideas on strengthening the chin, etc? Been boxing for a few months plan on escalating my sparring in the new year. Just want to make sure I am developing myself properly. Thanks.

While we're at it, any rules of thumb on range? I am getting a better sense of what is comfortable striking distance for me. Just more experience, I guess? That professional boxer definitely knew his range so that he didn't flail or get out of control.

Warm up like this first:



Then do neck curls:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/weik42.htm



You can do these as well.


Advanced GJJ and BJJ guys spend lots of time doing neck exercises like these:




Also, make sure you spend some good amount of time making sure your deltoids, trapz, and lats are good as well.

Squats and basic shit only do so much. Get that base (your back) good while you work on your neck. Be sure to do some military presses behind your back and off the top of your chest while sitting or standing.

The stronger your neck, the stronger your chin gets. If you REALLY want a super strong chin, there are these weights you could put in your mouth, but you may not need that unless you are cage or ring fighting with money on the line. What dudes don't tell you is that if you make too many mistakes doing all this, is that you could risk muscle spasms. Very painful. The more hardcore you get, the higher the risk.

Better range comes with more experience, but my favorite drills to improve this are the following:

1. Dashing jabs at the heavy bag. Dash in, jab, dash back out.

2. Make your focus mitts partner play keep away while holding the mitts at the sides of his face. Have him skip around to maintain distance. The better his footwork the better the results. You can also do this in reverse, basically have him chase you, so that you can practice back-pedaling and jabbing.

3. Have a partner hold the back of the heavy bag and swing it, while you duck step as if you are doing the broomstick drill.

4. Have your focus mitt guy wear body pads, and have him try to jab you while you practice ducking/bobbing and weaving and you should only take body shots and dash back out.

5. This one is hard to explain without showing, but doing "dirty boxing" drills. Like an upclose hook, hook, kidney shot with the same hand. Hitting your partners focus mitts. This teaches you what your effective hook ranges are. Have him avoid while you chase once you get comfortable with your effective range.