Post: #1

Paging Doctor Clarey...

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/...-min-wage/

I am currently relegated to my phone only so this is a barebones opener but really what else can be said.

I searched for an earlier thread on this topic but found none on living wages or Seattle's new wage.

Post: #2

Yup. Similar stuff happens when unions piss and moan about people being engaged on a casual basis regularly. "They're really permanent staff!" the scream goes up. And when you do offer permanent employment, half the downtrodden, oppressed casuals refuse being made permanent staff because (a) it means a 20% pay cut and (b) they can't refuse to turn up for work when asked.

Post: #3

There was a big thread about this. Anyway, I forget exactly what I wrote, but I definitely called this.

Post: #4

Quote:"Some workers across the city are left telling bosses to give them fewer hours at the higher wage because a full week’s earnings now puts them past the threshold for some welfare payments such as food stamps and assistance with rent."

Quote:"But now some workers in Seattle are finding that the higher wage is forcing them off the welfare programs they would rather stay enrolled in and, instead of celebrating their higher income, they are imposing fewer work hours on themselves in order to stay on assistance."

Some workers? How many is "some"? 100? 1,000? 1,000,000?

There is no source either. The first paragraph links to a Fox site in Orlando, which links to the exact same story on Fox News.

Quote:"By March of this year, for instance, restaurant closings increased at a much higher than average rate in Seattle."

But there's no numbers on this either. It just links to Forbes article that mentions "Restaurants are closing at higher than normal rates" randomly halfway through the piece.

What are the rates? If you know them, why don't you just post them in the article?

I'm not on either side of this issue, but I was interested to see some actual numbers.

Kind of strange to see complex economic issues boiled down to "some" and "higher than normal rates" and guys buy it hook, line, and sinker because it supports their previously held opinion.

Post: #5

Unreal.

Those "poor workers" apparently have it so good on the government dole that they are willing to forego full time work even at $15/hour.

Remind me why I pay taxes to support this kind of sh*t? Unbelievable.

Post: #6

IT pisses me off to hear about the restaurants that have been around a long time having to close down cause they can't afford to make a profit paying their 5-10 employees a extra $3 a hour. These kinds of mom and pop places have been someones life work and now they can't afford to stay open cause the government thinks dishwashers should be making $15 a hour. Such bullshit.


It always makes me sad when I see a shutdown business.(you see a lot in the USA) At some point in time a family worked hard to have their own business and put a lot of time an effort in it and in the end it just didn't pan out, seeing the old shut down store is like seeing a crushed dream.... Sure sometimes it was the owners own fault but not always. ALOT of restaurants opened and closed in my hometown. The food would be good, the decor would be nice, place would be clean, staff always friendly, and the owners there everyday working hard..... but no one would go to eat there, everyone always goes to the same chains or the already established places. An in a matter of time the place would be closed down..

Post: #7

(07-28-2015 06:19 AM)Enigma Wrote:  

Quote:"Some workers across the city are left telling bosses to give them fewer hours at the higher wage because a full week’s earnings now puts them past the threshold for some welfare payments such as food stamps and assistance with rent."

Quote:"But now some workers in Seattle are finding that the higher wage is forcing them off the welfare programs they would rather stay enrolled in and, instead of celebrating their higher income, they are imposing fewer work hours on themselves in order to stay on assistance."

Some workers? How many is "some"? 100? 1,000? 1,000,000?

There is no source either. The first paragraph links to a Fox site in Orlando, which links to the exact same story on Fox News.

Quote:"By March of this year, for instance, restaurant closings increased at a much higher than average rate in Seattle."

But there's no numbers on this either. It just links to Forbes article that mentions "Restaurants are closing at higher than normal rates" randomly halfway through the piece.

What are the rates? If you know them, why don't you just post them in the article?

I'm not on either side of this issue, but I was interested to see some actual numbers.

Kind of strange to see complex economic issues boiled down to "some" and "higher than normal rates" and guys buy it hook, line, and sinker because it supports their previously held opinion.

Thank you. I was just about to mention this very point. Glad to see there are some out there who read the news with a critical eye rather than cherry picking whatever aligns with their worldview regardless of its veracity. Whenever I see Brietbart or Worldnetdaily in a link I know I'm going to have to crank my bullshit detector to the hilt.

Like you said, the very first thing that jumped out at me is the "some workers" phrase at the top of the article which gives no context as to how frequently this is the case. And when looking at the ramification of any economic policy, scale is paramount in importance. But Brietbart knows that this isn't what their audience wants. They are just looking for red meat.

Post: #8

Things are just going to increasingly start going underground. You can't fight the state, but just never comply with them unless they're pointing a gun at you, and only the bare minimum to make them point it at someone else. They don't have unlimited time and resources, and they can't point a gun at everyone at the same time.

Post: #9

Propaganda at its finest. And guys fall for it every time because it fits their world view

Here's another guy pointing out the right wing propaganda over living wages

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/20...he-bubble/

Can't wait for the goal post to move in this discussion because guys can't admit they're getting duped.

"It's simple addition and subtraction.."

Smh

WIA

Post: #10

(07-28-2015 07:17 AM)Cr33pin Wrote:  It always makes me sad when I see a shutdown business.(you see a lot in the USA) At some point in time a family worked hard to have their own business and put a lot of time an effort in it and in the end it just didn't pan out, seeing the old shut down store is like seeing a crushed dream.... Sure sometimes it was the owners own fault but not always.

On the other hand, these concerns might've lasted longer if they'd actually been "family" businesses -- i.e. ones where the employees were predominantly if not entirely family and thus not likely to fucking sue over supposedly being underpaid.

Post: #11

I wouldn't even say this was propoganda at its finest. It was pretty obvious and a few people picked up on it right away. Propoganda at its finest is much more subtle.

Post: #12

The restaurant business is not a high margin industry. This was expected.

Post: #13

(07-28-2015 07:33 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(07-28-2015 06:19 AM)Enigma Wrote:  

Quote:"Some workers across the city are left telling bosses to give them fewer hours at the higher wage because a full week’s earnings now puts them past the threshold for some welfare payments such as food stamps and assistance with rent."

Quote:"But now some workers in Seattle are finding that the higher wage is forcing them off the welfare programs they would rather stay enrolled in and, instead of celebrating their higher income, they are imposing fewer work hours on themselves in order to stay on assistance."

Some workers? How many is "some"? 100? 1,000? 1,000,000?

There is no source either. The first paragraph links to a Fox site in Orlando, which links to the exact same story on Fox News.

Quote:"By March of this year, for instance, restaurant closings increased at a much higher than average rate in Seattle."

But there's no numbers on this either. It just links to Forbes article that mentions "Restaurants are closing at higher than normal rates" randomly halfway through the piece.

What are the rates? If you know them, why don't you just post them in the article?

I'm not on either side of this issue, but I was interested to see some actual numbers.

Kind of strange to see complex economic issues boiled down to "some" and "higher than normal rates" and guys buy it hook, line, and sinker because it supports their previously held opinion.

Thank you. I was just about to mention this very point. Glad to see there are some out there who read the news with a critical eye rather than cherry picking whatever aligns with their worldview regardless of its veracity. Whenever I see Brietbart or Worldnetdaily in a link I know I'm going to have to crank my bullshit detector to the hilt.

Like you said, the very first thing that jumped out at me is the "some workers" phrase at the top of the article which gives no context as to how frequently this is the case. And when looking at the ramification of any economic policy, scale is paramount in importance. But Brietbart knows that this isn't what their audience wants. They are just looking for red meat.

Agree with all this. Also, even if true this sounds like adjustment problems rather than a fundamental problem with the policy. Suppose you have subsidized housing and medicaid. Your wage goes up, making you ineligible. But you haven't been making the new wage long enough to save up first, last, and deposit on a new place, or to afford new health insurance. So you temporarily work fewer hours while you sort things out.

Predictable that there will be an adjustment period while people get used to the new reality. In fact, that this is the only problem conservatives can point to is a pretty good sign the policy is working well. For many years the conservative line has been that raising the minimum wage would cause a large drop in employment. If that was happening you can be sure they'd tell us about it.

Post: #14

I have mixed feelings over very high minimum wages (and US$15/hour is high). In the customer service business though one positive effect is that business owners and managers are forced into what I regard as more ethical behavior. E.g. In jurisdictions with very low minimum wages you'll often find restaurants over hire waitstaff thinking "Well, it doesn't cost me much and if I get a surge in customers I'll have staff on hand to turn them into money". While that may seem great in practice it sucks for the workers. They are forced to be present for long hours while earning very little per hour since they oversee too few tables.

Post: #15

WIA, if you raise the price of a service, does demand not decrease? If you make free self-interested action illegal, do you not make illegal action more common?

Post: #16

The minimum wage issue has become so obfuscated, it's truly a joke. Having said that, the only statistic cited by these articles is an absolute farce:

Quote:The notion that employees are intentionally working less to preserve their welfare has been a hot topic on talk radio. While the claims are difficult to track, state stats indeed suggest few are moving off welfare programs under the new wage.

Despite a booming economy throughout western Washington, the state’s welfare caseload has dropped very little since the higher wage phase began in Seattle in April. In March 130,851 people were enrolled in the Basic Food program. In April, the caseload dropped to 130,376.

So, there is no appreciable difference in the number of people in the Basic Food program in the same month as the higher wage phase began, and that proves something? Oh wait, it's a "hot topic" on talk radio so it must be true.

They must just finger-paint and watch Oprah reruns in journalism school these days.

Post: #17

They should raise their hours anyway so they get off of the doll, suckers.

Post: #18

(07-28-2015 10:24 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  WIA, if you raise the price of a service, does demand not decrease? If you make free self-interested action illegal, do you not make illegal action more common?

Mostly, only if consumers have alternatives. In what geographical area does this US15/hour apply? If those in the area can easily travel to an area with a lower wage, then yes business may be lost. Otherwise, demand will be much more "sticky". Since all businesses are in the same boat they will all have to raise their prices. Bigger chains that have national/regional pricing will have to rethink this policy and maybe allow for increased prices only on Seattle.

This type of situation isn't completely unknown. In a place like Fort McMurray during the boom, there probably was an effective minimum wage of CAN$15/hour. As far as I know Tim Hortons McDonald's etc. etc. still operated there.

Post: #19

(07-28-2015 08:07 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  Propaganda at its finest. And guys fall for it every time because it fits their world view

WIA

I wouldn't say this is propaganda. Although there are no concrete numbers listed, the fact that things happening like businesses not being able to turn a profit are exactly what anyone with a bit of economic sense predicted.

After the stores start shutting down and unemployment increases, will it still be propaganda? Or can the "left" admit that us "right-wingers" were correct? I doubt they will, they'll find something else to blame. They still haven't taken credit for Detroit.

Post: #20

Great article referenced WIA. It's definitely propaganda.

That said, minimum wages make no sense. I mean, I guess it helps out middle-class teenagers.

Owners who pay under $15 per hour are just pandering when they say "no big deal I think it's a great idea"...because they're being forced to pay more.

Owners who pay over $15 per hour...well, the minimum wage if anything might help them (cheaper alternatives hindered), so of course they'll be on-board.

Even if you take this article at its face, the real subject of the article is the welfare. Why? Because it's imposed on much larger scales...state and federal. If Seattle wants to have a minimum wage, go right ahead. I'm fine with that. It's the federal handcuffs that are the real problem.

Post: #21

I'd say I'm pretty non-ideological when it comes to the issue of minimum wage, I just want to see something practical that doesn't raise unemployment too high. I do think with Seattle's new 15 there could be some contradictions between skilled and non-skilled labor as they will plateau to the same pay scale, and let me explain what I mean. Here are some jobs that have paid $15/hr in Seattle long before the mandate took place: Certified Nurse Assistant, Administrative Assistant, Customer Service Representative. By no means the best jobs, but somewhat skilled work; lets call it semi-skilled labor. Now that burger flippers, cashiers and dish washers are deemed to be worth $15 as well, can we count on companies to voluntarily raise the wages of Nurse Assistants and Administrators or will they be equally valued alongside burger flippers?

If you raise the wage of non-skilled labor, it must follow that you should raise the wage of semi-skilled labor so that there is no overlap, and consequently when you raise the wage of semi-skilled labor you'll have to push skilled labor so they don't hit the same pay scale. Basically, if government has artificially defined one section of the job market, it must follow that all jobs need reassessment which I predict will not happen.

Post: #22

I think a high minimum wage is great.

I think a dish washer should make $15/hr as a minimum wage.

I also think though for this to work you need to completely gut food stamps, welfare, deport all illegal workers, and unemployment compensation and all taxes should be severely limited.

You need both to happen for the right incentives to be in place.

Post: #23

I don't believe in this thing called "unskilled labor". That's terminology elites use to keep fucking anybody that works a job they deem exploitable. And I always find it funny that "burger flippers" are always brought up as the sole example of this type of work, as if the guys at McDonalds are the only ones making shit wages. I worked in high-end restaurant kitchens where highly skilled line cooks made no more than $15/hr. These guys would do 300-400 covers per night and work 12 hour shifts.

Post: #24

(07-28-2015 03:07 PM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  I don't believe in this thing called "unskilled labor". That's terminology elites use to keep fucking anybody that works a job they deem exploitable. And I always find it funny that "burger flippers" are always brought up as the sole example of this type of work, as if the guys at McDonalds are the only ones making shit wages. I worked in high-end restaurant kitchens where highly skilled line cooks made no more than $15/hr. These guys would do 300-400 covers per night and work 12 hour shifts.

I will listen to conservatives who go on about how awful it is for "low-skilled" workers to make $15/hr once they start saying something about bankers who actively break the law every day and destroyed the entire world's economy making billions and totally dominating the entire political system. At least the burger flipper is productive on a small scale, rather than destructive on a massive scale.

And I think you are spot on about the normative terminology in "low skilled" work. Few jobs really require a whole lot of skills, plenty of high paying jobs hardly require any skills. As if most office workers have extraordinary talents.

A lot of people have the fantasy in their mind that the market system described by economists works rationally as it is assumed to in academic models. A million things go into how much a job is paid including the attitude of business owners, social expectations, etc. Cashiers and burger flippers are vital to the operation of businesses, the businesses could not exist without them, and I have no trouble saying that businesses should be forced to pay them as much as they can bear. Now, it's possible 15 dollars is too high a figure. You have to get the figure right. But what they're being paid now is certainly too low. Businesses can afford to pay these people more, and they should; if it eats into corporate profits and executive salaries have to be slashed to accommodate it, I won't lose one wink of sleep.

On the other end, executives and high-paid white collar workers are all certainly paid too much. The difference is these are high status jobs so it makes sense for the people in power (those who own the businesses) to artificially restrict who can hold them.

Post: #25

(07-28-2015 03:07 PM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  I don't believe in this thing called "unskilled labor". That's terminology elites use to keep fucking anybody that works a job they deem exploitable. And I always find it funny that "burger flippers" are always brought up as the sole example of this type of work, as if the guys at McDonalds are the only ones making shit wages. I worked in high-end restaurant kitchens where highly skilled line cooks made no more than $15/hr. These guys would do 300-400 covers per night and work 12 hour shifts.

No one would understand if the common term was "workers with low marginal revenue product."