Post: #251

Stefan Molyneux has chimed in on the situation, in his own inimitable way.
Agree with him or not, the guy always makes some interesting points, worth a watch.

Post: #252

Interesting fact about that law that granted immunity to ministers in office. One of the immunes was previous socialist prime minister, Papandreou

Post: #253

Greece best memes:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/econo...risis.html

Post: #254

Post: #255

Patrick Chovanec Wrote:BREAKING: EU agrees to drop all other demands if Tsipras would just wear a tie.

Post: #256

(07-07-2015 08:54 AM)TheWastelander Wrote:  

He is right, but he is missing the main point of money creation now. It's not the savings of widow's that are invested. Banks simply create money as they make the loan:

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publicati...14q102.pdf

Study from Bank of England in 2014 confirmed it.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/fast-tracki...ed/5455231

Quote:The BOE report confirmed what money reformers have been saying for decades: that banks do not act simply as intermediaries, taking in the deposits of “savers” and lending them to borrowers, keeping the spread in interest rates. Rather, banks actually createdeposits when they make loans. The BOE report said that private banks now create 97 percent of the British money supply. The US money supply is created in the same way.

Quote:Just consider what might happen if mortgage holders realised the money the bank lent them is not, really, the life savings of some thrifty pensioner, but something the bank just whisked into existence through its possession of a magic wand which we, the public, handed over to it.

The fractional reserve banking system is one of the biggest scams out there.

No one ever voted himself out of anything as of yet. If they let the Greek people have a referendum, then be assured that they had ulterior motives for alternative goals.

Post: #257

(07-06-2015 06:22 PM)Captainstabbin Wrote:  ...

Or, they own 155 F-16s, sell some of them. The annual cost of diabetes in Greece can't be more than $10m...it's under $24m in the US.

Now that's actually not a bad idea. They could probably sell 100 of them without endangering their medium term security. And they are a member of NATO, so technically other NATO members would have to protect them in the unlikely event they were attacked. Could they get as much as $20 million/plane? That'd be $2 billion already.

I see good opportunities for various smugglers/mafia types in Italy, Turkey and Albania. Supply the Greeks with consumer goods that can't be imported into Greece because of outstanding loans of all the Greek domiciled importers. Or just because of the fact that there is no movable money in the banking system. Cellphones, tablets etc. There's so much cash (Euro bills) under countless Greek mattresses the smugglers would be accepting these bills for consumer goods and clandestinely removing the money and "laundering"(bit of a strong term for what they'd be doing) it in other countries.

Post: #258

(07-06-2015 03:39 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  After an initial shock phase the BRIC countries - especially Russia and China give Greece a helping hand.

China is in no position to give Greece anything now, They have just lost 30% of their value in their stock market, about $3, billion dollars, in the past couple of week, they've been trying to stop the bleeding desperately but its getting worse over there now.

Russia's economy has been in the toilet since they "gave their troops vacation leave" in The Ukraine, and every nation except China has put sanctions on them, so yeah, neither of them are in much of a postition to lend money to greece or "unravel NATO"(I understand that quote was made before the Chinese bubble burst. . .but if the dude was paying attention, he would have known that China has been having a Huge bubble growing since 2009)

Speaking of which. . .China is in trouble(financially). Pretty sure someone will start a thread about that soon.

Post: #259

(07-07-2015 10:29 AM)CJ_W Wrote:  Speaking of which. . .China is in trouble(financially). Pretty sure someone will start a thread about that soon.

Yeah but I've been hearing about that since 2009. Jim Chanos has been bleating about it since forever. Same as going short Japanese government bonds is called "the widowmaker trade", since whilst the fundamentals indicate the bonds are unrepayable, things keep rolling on.

Post: #260

Post: #261

(07-07-2015 10:13 AM)Bad Hussar Wrote:  

(07-06-2015 06:22 PM)Captainstabbin Wrote:  ...

Or, they own 155 F-16s, sell some of them. The annual cost of diabetes in Greece can't be more than $10m...it's under $24m in the US.

Now that's actually not a bad idea. They could probably sell 100 of them without endangering their medium term security. And they are a member of NATO, so technically other NATO members would have to protect them in the unlikely event they were attacked. Could they get as much as $20 million/plane? That'd be $2 billion already.

It's hard to say because I'm not sure how weapons, maintenance and training programs would transfer to the new owners. Plus, they wouldn't have years to find the right buyer.

Several years ago, the US offered 24 used F-16s to Romania for $1.3 billion, but that included $900 million in training and refurbs plus money to buy weapons. Depending on how much weapon money is involved, that puts the price of each plane (just the raw plane) at around $11-13 million each.

If Greece had a fire sale, they might get $10 million each, substantially more if weapons, training and maintenance programs would transfer to the new owner.

And these are for planes that Greece paid $2 billion for 30, or over $66 million, all inclusive, per plane when they were new in 2010.

Post: #262

Now for the real solution to the EU and Eurozone perpetual Debt Bomb crises:

http://mythfighter.com/2015/07/07/will-t...-the-rich/

“Because of the Euro, no euro nation can control its own money supply. The Euro is the worst economic idea since the recession-era, Smoot-Hawley Tariff. The economies of European nations are doomed by the euro.”

And now, it is ten years later, and still we read an article about how Greece must convince its rapacious lenders to allow it to burn in the frying pan of economic ignorance and misery.

So deeply in debt you cannot pay? Well, then borrow some more. That is the troika’s self-serving solution.

And now it is four years after I posted: There are two, and only two, long-term solutions for Greece and the other euro nations. (Thursday, Nov 3 2011), which included these lines:

In giving up the drachma, and taking on the euro, Greece voluntarily surrendered the single most valuable asset any nation can have: Its Monetary Sovereignty.

Greece now is monetarily non-sovereign. There is an absolute rule in economics: No monetarily non-sovereign government can survive long term without money coming in from outside its borders. Germany, another nation that gave up its most valuable asset, the mark, and also is monetarily non-sovereign, survives on exports.

Nevada, which also is monetarily non-sovereign, survives mostly on tourism (aka gambling). No monetarily non-sovereign can survive long-term on internal taxes or borrowing.

By contrast, Monetarily Sovereign nations do not need money coming in from outside their borders, because they create unlimited money simply by paying bills.

For Greece and the other euro nations, long term survival requires one of two, and only two, events:

1. Adopt some form of a sovereign currency, and become Monetarily Sovereign
or
2. The EU give (not lend) euros to its member nations as needed.

Event #1 requires reversing the ill-fated switch to the euro.

If Greece re-adopts the drachma, and becomes Monetarily Sovereign again, it can free itself of the appropriately despised austerity, and build its economy.

Other euro nations, especially those with a negative balance of payments, soon will follow.

Or, if Europe adopts event #2, and creates a political union, perhaps a form of “United States of Europe,” it could become the most powerful economic force in the world, surpassing even the U.S. and China.

Long term, which path will Europe follow?

Europe will follow the path the bankers and the super-rich feel will be most profitable for them.

Very little consideration will be given to the welfare of the populace, the same lack of consideration for the people that led to the creation of the euro.

Despite what you have been told, the purpose of the euro never was to ease trade, nor was it to establish peace in Europe. The purpose was to give the rich bankers, the troika (European Central Bank [ECB], the European Commission [EC], and the International Monetary Fund [IMF]), absolute control over the people.

Remember, Monetary Sovereignty is the most valuable asset any nation can have. With Monetary Sovereignty, a nation can buy anything it wishes. It can buy prosperity. It can buy health, housing, education, food, convenience and pleasure for its citizenry.

By adopting the euro, each member nation handed over its most valuable asset to the small group of politicians. And oh, how the bankers loved it.

They could lend euros to nations already deeply in debt, knowing they had the financial blackjack of the troika on their side. They could suck the life out of the people, via ever-greater taxes and ever-smaller benefits — and it all was in the name of “fiscal prudence.”

If the people complained about austerity, it became a moral issue. They were “lazy takers,” who were part of a “welfare society” and who “expected the government to take care of them.”

It was a no-lose, highly profitable situation for the rich, so long as the populace didn’t get wise to the scam.

Now, that the Greek people have wised up, the rich desperately are trying to hang on to the geese who have been laying those golden eggs.

My prediction: The rich will find a way to continue the racket, just in a different form. The only way this could change is in the rare circumstance where a strong and caring leader emerges.

Do you see any such on Europe’s horizon?

Or will the geese keep on a’layin’?

Rodger Malcolm Mitchell
Monetary Sovereignty

Post: #263

The basic argument against Greece abandoning the Euro is that it will make the cost of borrowing for the government (and attracting capital in general) prohibitive. In other words, a country with excessive debt is being encouraged to borrow...

Post: #264

I always told people that Greece doesn't belong in the EU. They cheated themselves into the EU with help of some bankers. Now they don't want to pay back their debt which will hurt the European tax payer. This is not how an Union suppose to work. If Greece get's off the hook who says Italy, Spain and Portugal want the same treatment when necessary reforms need to be implemented? The thing is that Europe needs to set an example. Yes it will burn the Greeks but if we are soft on Greece, the Spaniards and Italians who have a bigger economy will feel cheated.

Post: #265

Is the real estate tanking in Athens? I can't ask my family as the will get upset.

I would though love an apartment on a higher floor near Glyfada with a view.

Post: #266

(07-07-2015 06:38 PM)turuk Wrote:  I always told people that Greece doesn't belong in the EU. They cheated themselves into the EU with help of some bankers. Now they don't want to pay back their debt which will hurt the European tax payer. This is not how an Union suppose to work. If Greece get's off the hook who says Italy, Spain and Portugal want the same treatment when necessary reforms need to be implemented? The thing is that Europe needs to set an example. Yes it will burn the Greeks but if we are soft on Greece, the Spaniards and Italians who have a bigger economy will feel cheated.

Austan Goolsbee from the University of Chicago was on tv. He was saying Grexit is 100%. He was saying something like a $50B haircut on the debt is needed to have a slimmer of chance to make it work for Greece.

And austerity isn't going help. It hasn't so far. He said, obvious to us on the forum, that the EU is different than the US which has 50 states. There always needed to be work done to keep certain countries from cheating, etc. The push was to get the union formed and they never in the years since did the work to prepare for the day some countries started slacking.

No country wants to hand over control of its finances to some centralized government agency that is foreign. If Greece doesn't exit, it sends a bad message. It will encourage more laziness and shirking. After a while, the Germans will get really pissed and start looking up words like blitzkrieg.

Post: #267

(07-07-2015 06:38 PM)turuk Wrote:  I always told people that Greece doesn't belong in the EU. They cheated themselves into the EU with help of some bankers. Now they don't want to pay back their debt which will hurt the European tax payer. This is not how an Union suppose to work. If Greece get's off the hook who says Italy, Spain and Portugal want the same treatment when necessary reforms need to be implemented? The thing is that Europe needs to set an example. Yes it will burn the Greeks but if we are soft on Greece, the Spaniards and Italians who have a bigger economy will feel cheated.

That's ironically exactly how political unions tend to work. The wealthier states tend to transfer funds to the poorer states. In Canada we have the transfer payment system, the USA has its own form of government transfers. Brazil has bolsa familia, and so on.

Post: #268

The Greeks will need to walk away from the insane levels of debt they have I read $279 Billion USD equivalent for only 11 million people - that is worse than Illinois - like Puerto Rico's $79 Billion USD - these debts can never be repaid unless they just walk away like Argentina did and start over fresh with a new Sovereign Currency Drachcoin or Bitma crypto currency anyone? That should last them 10 to 20 years before their corrupt politicians bankrupt them again. But austerity will be a memory within months as the Troika will take their haircuts and no longer be able to suck the life blood out of the country of Greece - or the rest of the EU PIIGSF. Whoa now if the other Debt Bombed countries in the EU leave it could be a real problem for the Eurozone - but not the people having austerity crammed down their throats - in the USA we would revolt at 35% unemployment. The USA has over $100 Trillion in Unfunded liabilities, local, state and federal pensions and debts - if we lose world reserve currency status its liable to be the same thing here as well but we have nukes that actually work unlike Greece so our debtors negotiations will be a slightly different tone.

Post: #269

What real time site do they use there like zillow?

Post: #270

I can't see the US losing its reserve currency status with the shit going on in Europe and China. I always caution against arrogance but I just don't know what other currency provides some peace of mind.

Post: #271

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/ju...g-collapse

Greece given days to agree bailout deal or face banking collapse and euro exit

Athens told to present convincing details or EU leaders will hold emergency meeting in Brussels on Sunday to deal with Grexit

Quote:Greece has 48 hours to strike a new bailout deal with its eurozone creditors or face a banking collapse, a humanitarian emergency, and the start of an exit from the single currency, European leaders decided on Tuesday evening.

Unless Athens presents convincing details entailing more austerity as the basis for its third bailout in five years, all 28 national EU leaders, not just those of the eurozone, are to gather in Brussels on Sunday in emergency session to discuss how to contain the fallout from Greece’s financial collapse.

“We have a Grexit scenario prepared in detail,” said Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European commission.

The stark ultimatum emerged from a special eurozone summit in Brussels on Tuesday where the Greek prime minister, Alexis Tsipras, was pressed to explain to the other leaders how he wanted to proceed following his victory in a referendum on Sunday when his country voted no to eurozone austerity measures as the price of staying in the euro.

The Greek leadership exasperated EU leaders by failing to present new bailout proposals on Tuesday. It is to present a formal application on Wednesday for a new rescue package from the European Stability Mechanism (ESM), the eurozone’s permanent bailout fund. If Berlin, Paris, Brussels and other key creditor capitals can agree the terms and timings with Athens, Greece would be offered a stay of execution in the euro. Sunday’s summit would then be of the 19 eurozone leaders.

If not, the summit of all 28 leaders, including David Cameron and heads of government of other non-euro countries, would instead convene to deal with the consequences of a Greece cut loose from the eurozone financial system.

“That shows there’s only a few days to go to taking a decision,” said Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany. “That shows how serious it is.”

“Our inability to find agreement may lead to the bankruptcy of Greece and the insolvency of its banking system … This is the most critical moment in our history,” said Donald Tusk, the president of the European council who chairs the summits. “The stark reality is that we have only five days left to find the ultimate agreement. The final deadline ends this week.”

Tuesday night’s decisions in Brussels portend several days of frantic, round-the-clock negotiations. Athens is expected to ask for a new bailout programme worth up to €60bn over two to four years as well as measures to reduce its ballooning debt.

The chances of securing a deal hinge on the levels of cuts, austerity, and fundamental reforms of economic and fiscal systems that the Greek government is prepared to endure after Tsipras stonewalled for five months and then called his snap referendum.

Merkel ruled out any flat writedowns of Greek debt, but there is likely to be scope for debt restructuring.

Eurozone officials said that if things went well, a new bailout could be ready by mid-August. In the meantime, with capital controls in place and Greek banks running out of money, Tsipras made clear his country would also need immediate “bridging” support to prevent a banking collapse that would force a return to the drachma. That would also come with tight strings attached and up-front action through the Greek parliament to persuade eurozone leaders that Tsipras was committed.

Greece’s new finance minister, Euclid Tsakalotos, prompted optimism of a breakthrough when he said there was “political will” in Brussels to keep the eurozone intact. But Merkel, Tusk and others were grim-faced and visibly angered by Tsipras’ referendum gambit.

The plebiscite victory might have strengthened Tsipras’ hand, said Merkel, but it narrowed the options for all the other leaders.

In the hope that Washington would put pressure on Europe to agree a deal, Tsipras spoke to Barack Obama ahead of the summit. The US president then spoke to Merkel, putting pressure on the German chancellor to keep Greece in the eurozone. The White House is keen to avoid a Greek exit, fearful that it would increase Russian influence in the eastern Mediterranean.

In the run-up to Tuesday evening’s summit called as a result of the Sunday referendum, eurozone leaders demanded that Tsipras present specific proposals. Tsakalotos instead turned up at a meeting of finance ministers with speaking points jotted in pencil from a Brussels hotel notepad. The Greeks then promised a more formal submission by Wednesday.

“[With] the Greek government it is every time ‘mañana’,” said Lithuania’s president, Dalia Grybauskaitė, one of the Greek government’s harshest critics. “It can always be ‘mañana’ every day.”

Financial markets reacted nervously to the lack of progress. Share prices fell, while the euro slid against the US dollar. Oil prices fell and investors sought havens such as German bonds. Even if Europe agreed to a new ESM bailout, the money would not be available to Greece until the middle of August at the earliest – far too late to stop it defaulting on a €3.5bn debt payment to the ECB due on July 20.

But sources in Brussels said that there was a fix available, provided leaders believed the departure of the former Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis had created some goodwill.

They said that when Greece’s second bailout expired last Tuesday, €3.3bn in ECB profits from its securities markets programme due to Greece also vanished.

Ministers from the Eurogroup could decide to release the profits from 2014, which amount to €1.85bn, and top them up with an additional €1.5bn currently held by eurozone governments in order to facilitate payments due to the European Central Bank in less than a fortnight.

A eurozone source said: “It’s not an easy solution, but probably the only solution.”

The advantage for Greece would be that the money could be released without the delays caused by getting agreement through the parliaments of euro zone members. The potential downside is that the cash would need to be authorised by the Eurogroup unanimously.

Thomas Piketty, author of the best-selling book Capital, said it was up to Merkel to remember the benefits Germany had received from debt relief and show leadership.

In a letter to the Guardian, Piketty and other leading economists said: “Together we urge Chancellor Merkel and the Troika to consider a course correction, to avoid further disaster and enable Greece to remain in the eurozone. Right now, the Greek government is being asked to put a gun to its head and pull the trigger. Sadly, the bullet will not only kill off Greece’s future in Europe. The collateral damage will kill the eurozone as a beacon of hope, democracy and prosperity, and could lead to far-reaching economic consequences across the world.

“In the 1950s Europe was founded on the forgiveness of past debts, notably -Germany’s, which generated a massive contribution to post-war economic growth and peace. Today we need to restructure and reduce Greek debt.”

Post: #272

Post: #273

Five days to solve everything or it all goes under.

Personally, I'm planning on getting some champagne for Sunday morning and toasting the end of the European Union.

Post: #274

^ Yeah I'm hoping if they break away that it's on a Saturday so I can party appropriately.

Post: #275

(07-07-2015 07:19 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  What real time site do they use there like zillow?

I'm with Mech on this.

How does one buy some land over there?

While it's cheap as fuck obviously.