Post: #26

(06-27-2015 08:00 AM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  If there were borderless labor markets I might be in support of this. It certainly hasn't become easier to move from one country to another...well maybe if you have a few million for an investor visa, but I think that is also the point of these laws...free movement of the rich and business but restricted movement of labor.

If labor was not limited it would never make sense to move a business unless it was closer to markets or resources. Instead what you'll get is people locked in their own borders and businesses that rotate regions, china for example where they will stay until wages climb to a certain point, then head back to America where wages have fallen and governments are begging them back with crazy tax breaks.

You are kidding, right? The TPP will concern free goods and services. I think that a company after the TPP could literally have a factory in the US and hire the entire staff from overseas at slave labor wages complete with housing. I am sure somewhere someone thinks it's great if they can save 500$/month while living in a de-facto labor camp.

The great tradition of US factory towns is coming back - how wonderful the free markets are! Most Americans probably don't even know that those existed in rural areas up until the 1970s and consisted of effective slave labor wages and workers living in an adjacent shanty town for generations. (Saw once a documentary about one of the last of them when the workers desired to join a union and the local police was beating down the protesters back then. That was as close as the 1970s - most of the true West in the 19th century consisted of that.)

Post: #27

Honestly I think that international economics is a zero sum game. Liebig's law of the minimum applies, there is a finite supply of the raw materials necessary to produce the goods and energy that make life in the USA and developed world so much better than that of the developed world. I think the biggest flaw I see in the views of those supporting free trade, is the belief that increased competition will lead to USA like prosperity in the developing world. The reality is that to substantially increase the standard of living in the developing world, the standard of living in the developed world has to decrease. A perfect example of this was the spike in oil and commodities prices that occurred when China and India began seriously revving up their development.

All's fair in economics and war, we should be playing to win.

Post: #28

(06-27-2015 08:23 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

(06-27-2015 08:00 AM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  If there were borderless labor markets I might be in support of this. It certainly hasn't become easier to move from one country to another...well maybe if you have a few million for an investor visa, but I think that is also the point of these laws...free movement of the rich and business but restricted movement of labor.

If labor was not limited it would never make sense to move a business unless it was closer to markets or resources. Instead what you'll get is people locked in their own borders and businesses that rotate regions, china for example where they will stay until wages climb to a certain point, then head back to America where wages have fallen and governments are begging them back with crazy tax breaks.

You are kidding, right? The TPP will concern free goods and services. I think that a company after the TPP could literally have a factory in the US and hire the entire staff from overseas at slave labor wages complete with housing. I am sure somewhere someone thinks it's great if they can save 500$/month while living in a de-facto labor camp.

The great tradition of US factory towns is coming back - how wonderful the free markets are! Most Americans probably don't even know that those existed in rural areas up until the 1970s and consisted of effective slave labor wages and workers living in an adjacent shanty town for generations. (Saw once a documentary about one of the last of them when the workers desired to join a union and the local police was beating down the protesters back then. That was as close as the 1970s - most of the true West in the 19th century consisted of that.)

Do you have any links you can share Zel? I'd be interested in reading more as 'company towns' were how much of northern canada got started...and I'd rather have a slave labor camp of legal immigrants than the existing shadows labor towns of illegals. There are small towns that dot Wisconsin that are home to food processing factories that are like little mexicos, out of eyesight from the interstate traffic.

Post: #29

(06-27-2015 07:15 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  Do you have any links you can share Zel? I'd be interested in reading more as 'company towns' were how much of northern canada got started...and I'd rather have a slave labor camp of legal immigrants than the existing shadows labor towns of illegals. There are small towns that dot Wisconsin that are home to food processing factories that are like little mexicos, out of eyesight from the interstate traffic.

That's kind of like saying that you'd rather take a bite out of the shit sandwich that's got peanuts in it as opposed to the one with corn.

Company towns were the industrial version of something between sharecropping and indentured servitude. And not returning to that type of arrangement should be the focus.

Post: #30

(06-27-2015 07:15 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  The great tradition of US factory towns is coming back - how wonderful the free markets are! Most Americans probably don't even know that those existed in rural areas up until the 1970s and consisted of effective slave labor wages and workers living in an adjacent shanty town for generations. (Saw once a documentary about one of the last of them when the workers desired to join a union and the local police was beating down the protesters back then. That was as close as the 1970s - most of the true West in the 19th century consisted of that.)


Do you have any links you can share Zel? I'd be interested in reading more as 'company towns' were how much of northern canada got started...and I'd rather have a slave labor camp of legal immigrants than the existing shadows labor towns of illegals. There are small towns that dot Wisconsin that are home to food processing factories that are like little mexicos, out of eyesight from the interstate traffic.

I could not find the link. It was a documentary about one of the last of those "factory towns" - I just saw the trailer and you could see the workers wanting to form a union and being beaten down by cops. What made the stuff so terrible were the living conditions of the folk, who lived in houses of lower quality than the worst in current Detroit. And they all did it for generations - was existing for more than a 100 years. It is quite telling how the information of those very frequent towns is highly restricted - just like they forgot about the 500.000 white slaves in the beginning of the US history.

No surprise that little Mexico towns are opening up. The Chinese have actually begun buying up port areas. They were given permission to hire their own people there and close off the area completely. So essentially they could erect a Chinese factory on US soil, pay Chinese wages and the Chinese laborers there would never be able to leave the compound - only work and then be shipped off back to China.

Also Medic42 - economy is not a zero-sum game. When a company cuts 30.000$ in wages due to in-sourcing or out-sourcing, then those 30.000$ move from the 99,9% to the 0,01%. The 0,01% are going to do shit with it in terms of spending and thus fueling the global economy. They are going to invest it and move toward greater control of the market. Completely unrestrained capitalism leads simply back to a neo-feudal system of 18th century robber barons. Maybe it will be more cleverly hidden and social security will soften the blow for most, so that they can keep on living as obedient serfs on a minimum lifestyle.



This is symptomatic in the US. The elite simply moved off-shore and is now targeting global markets. The highest economic prosperity for the 99,9% would be derived by a much higher share of the total profits. But in such a system the 0,1% would exert less control, so we won't have that.

It's back to feudalism - corporate feudalism and the TPP is one of the stepping stones to get us there.

Post: #31

Post: #32

Here's the leaked version of the TPP if anyone's interested.

https://wikileaks.org/tpp-ip3/WikiLeaks-...051015.pdf

Post: #33

(06-28-2015 03:35 PM)kerouac Wrote:  

Looks about the same as socialism, except the top 4 tiers are blurred into one.