Post: #1

I've been thinking lately about evolution, and the human reward centre.

It occurred to me that we have an inbuilt system that chemically rewards us, for doing activities beneficial to survival.

Except, society as it is today, has made instant pleasure and gratification very accessible.

I can see two main areas where this comes in to play: food and sex.

Dopamine is the key neurotransmitter released to promote the consumption of foods dense in calories, and the act of sex.

However, in both these key areas, we have access to things that produce extreme quantities of the chemical, namely fast food and porn, that would no doubt imbalance and numb our reward system.

I wouldn't be surprised if the increase in problems like depression are directly proportional to the rise in fast food and porn consumption.

If you binge on both these things, it's as if nature is constantly rewarding you for finding a doughnut tree or a field with 50 8/10's bent over waiting for you to fuck them.

It is my theory that these levels of dopamine are not meant to be experienced on a regular basis, and desensitises us.

If we can find a way to reset our reward centre, i think it could be very powerful:

- More enthusiasm to approach and fuck women

- Sex will be more enjoyable

- Dopamine levels affect cognition, so more cognitively aware

- They also affect motivation, so more motivated and productive

The list really goes on.

I know this has been widely discussed with regards to NoFap, but I have yet to see a tie in with other things. When porn addiction is discussed, it is usually just porn addiction, and not the other things that skew our reward centre.

So to tie this up, I would propose the following:

- No Pornography

- Avoid sexually suggestive photos as much as possible (sorry LINUX)

- No Masturbation - providing a reward for nothing

- No Smoking - dopamine and nicotine are linked.

- No Drugs - this is an obvious one.

- Eat paleo - basically anything nature intended us to eat - nothing processed

- Avoid artificial sweeteners - these simulate the high obtained from sugar without actually eating it.

- Limit smartphone / recreational internet use - studies have shown that when a notification pops up on your phone, you get a dopamine hit.

What do you guys think ?

If anyone does all these things already, I would be fascinated to hear about your lifestyle, and if/how it's changed.

Post: #2

I'll pass on paleo. I like my pasta, milk, and occasional hard candy.

The trick is learning to limit oneself in a time of plenty. That way life's pleasures can be enjoyed.

It's why you see some Chinese indulging in extreme luxury. Years of poverty and then a swap to plenty causes the mind to go nuts. It takes at least 2 generations for it to pass through.

Post: #3

I think there's definitely something to be said about the level of hyper-stimulation inherent to life today, the effects it has on us, and how you could minimize it.

But, at the same time... You really want to go the rest of your life never having any meaningless fun, ever?
No pizza, no booze, no blowing your load when some celebrity's naked pictures leak?

"Everything in moderation, including moderation."

Also "drugs" is way too broad an umbrella to make any generalizations about.
If anything most guys probably stand to gain a good deal from using psychedelics at least a couple times in their life.

Post: #4

Abstinence for at least 90 days was concluded to cure porn addiction, so

I would assume abstinence from everything mentioned above for the same amount of time would go someway towards a "reset" of normal pleasure responses

From then onwards, as you both suggest, moderation may serve to keep the balance in check.

But the main point here is that we are not physiologically evolved for pizza or naked celebrities on a screen.

So that if we give these things up, for at least an extended period of time, we will find great pleasure in things that used to seem mundane.

Post: #5

While I agree it could have it's benefits, in my opinion, it also goes against human nature. Ever since we have walked these lands, we have wanted to better our conditions and our lives. For us, and for future generations.

We have created systems, traded with one another, created technologies, we want to understand how the world works. Matter of fact, our curiosity is the very reason we are here, and trying to conceive / better our way of living - (even if it includes mistakes), is something that will never change. It is within us.

Even if I understand why for some people a paleo diet makes perfect sense, I also know for fact that processed foods, GMO's etc - are probably the way we will be able to feed Earth's ever growing population in the future.

Furthermore, the ''healthy food'' movement (paleo, organic, gluten free etc) has repeatdly shown it's scientific illiteracy by using words such as : ''natural, chemicals, toxic'' etc...

We are understanding how the world works a little bit more everyday, and yes, this includes dopamine levels and neuroscience. This is not a trend I would suggest going against.

Post: #6

Most people who intentionally limit dopamine, and stimulation in general, have the wish that this will create an even bigger rush for themselves. Like in the extreme cases of ascetics and hermits who are trying to force a different (and higher) state of consciousnesses. Like Buddha, Jesus. Mohamed etc. etc.

To me this has always seemed a bit like "planning to be spontaneous". If you're searching so hard, you're not going to find it. Though obviously it does "work" in some cases. It's just that the cost-benefit ratio is out of sync.

Post: #7

I reject your proposition. I'll do whatever I want.

Post: #8

As if I would pass judgement on this? I'm not concerned with who wants to do what. That freedom is of course obvious.

I am just concerned with the effects of restricting high stimulation of the reward centre.

Is anyone else willing to try it ? Has anyone else tried it ?

Since I wrote this post, I have been avoiding the things I mentioned, and already feel a lot more alert and focused.

It's a suggestion I thought of, and like most things here, was intended to potentially better the lives of the reader, not pass judgement on those who don't want to try it.

Post: #9

I think you're on the right track. John Coates, a neurobiologist, speculated along similar lines in his book The Hour Between Dog and Wolf. Modern society does not give us the same hormone spikes we evolved under for millions of years. He tries to link this with depression, obesity and all sorts of modern problems.

Paleo and/or intermittent fasting seem like good approaches towards food. Definitely no ready-made processed food. Going out to eat more and new restaurants would mimic the novelty of hunting prey in a new environment, but of course the restaurant would have to offer healthy options.

Stop using air conditioning so much. Humans are supposed to get cold, supposed to sweat, etc.

Cut out porn, but fapping is fine. A million years ago, somewhere in Africa, many of our ancestors were off in a bush fapping.

Some of the men on RvF should even cut down on sex with multiple partners. That is another type of indulgence that was not available to primates who lived most of their lives in small bands and probably met fewer than one hundred unrelated females in their entire lives.

It's ok to indulge occasionally but follow Ben Franklin's advice and do everything in moderation.

Post: #10

(05-26-2015 08:44 AM)Frostbite Wrote:  I am just concerned with the effects of restricting high stimulation of the reward centre.

Is anyone else willing to try it ? Has anyone else tried it ?

I usually do a month long abstinence every time shit really hits the fan, and Im starting one again tomorrow.

1.No porn/no fap.
2.No recreational internet use (9gag, lamebook, soccer sites, dating sites)
3.No movies / TV
4.Only home cooked food (usually break this because of work-socializing)
5.No Alcohol / No Smokes
6.Minimal Sugar

Effects vary. If its been a long time since the last abstinence, some of the negative effects are just more pronounced and the positive effects take longer to manifest

1. Recurring periods of intense cravings, especially in the first week. The cravings for internet and smoking are often more intense than those for fapping, but that may vary from person to person. The craving for smoking is like a perennial mental tick, and its pretty irritating, like an itch that you fight to not-scratch.
2. Periods of mental / emotional fatigue following these cravings
3. Boredom
4. A recurring longing for the good days to come back (first week, usually)
5. Decreased motivation to do anything (its pretty important to fight this apathy in my experience)
6. An increased longing for sleep throughout the day

By mid second week,however, if I've been able to follow the objectives, the positives start emerging.

(+)Discipline (this becomes easier as the days go by, and spillover to other aspects)
(+)Self Esteem
(+)Self Awareness
(+)Social Awareness
(+)Desire to connect with other people better
(+)Drive / Motivation
(+)Happiness
(+)Getting turned on by random women on the street

Its never a smooth transition however, the positives and negatives are always in flux. Even on the last day it is not uncommon to get sudden cravings or feel mentally drained.

During the abstinence I almost always get a lot of shit sorted out and come out at the end of the period with higher motivation, discipline and a better clarity for the immediate future.

Post: #11

Dopamine is probably not as much the villain as stimulation in general. A person can't even begin the first parkinsons symptoms until 20% of a certain type of dopamine responding tissue is gone.