Post: #1

"The empire, long divided, must unite; long united, must divide."

If you're a history enthusiast, you'll likely be interested in the story of the Three Kingdoms.

I'm surprised I haven't seen it brought up on the boards here before. Probably because it gets overshadowed by other more popular times in history, such as the World Wars, Ancient Rome, Peloponnesian Wars, etc.

In short, Three Kingdoms is perhaps the most famous historical period in Ancient China. For a span of nearly 100 years, the country was torn apart by war and strife. At the end of the Han Dynasty, opportunistic warlords rose to power, each with their own set of ambitions.

It all gains momentum when one tyrant rises to control the court, with the child Emperor as his puppet. 18 lords from different parts of the country each with their own respective armies rise in unison to challenge this tyrant. However, each of them have their own secret pretences, and all want a piece of the rewards. Chaos provides opportunities greedy men cannot simply pass up.



War ensues. Warlords unite to fight a common enemy, then backstab each other. The weak are quickly overtaken. The strong survive, and become stronger.

20-30 years later, the kingdom is left divided into 3. All the previous warlords are either dead or have surrendered their armies and lands to the remaining powerful houses. Wei in the north, Wu in the south, and Shu in the west.



What follows are several decades of bitter war, political struggles, uprisings, transient alliances and betrayals, heroism, and much more...

The novel itself is brilliant. But, if you're interested in the story, there are better ways to sample and see if it's right for you. The english,unabridged version that I read clocks in at just under 1000 words. There are two novels, part one and two. It's definitely a worthwhile read, but it's a monstrous undertaking. It took me 2 years to get through both parts, though I took breaks several times.

A better way to see if you like it is to watch some of the popular media based on the Three Kingdoms.

The most famous is the film Red Cliff. A legendary director brings perhaps the most famous battle in the Three Kingdoms period to life in his adaption of the battle of Red Cliff. Better to just link the trailer for you here:





It's a solid entertainment flick, great movie, although it deviates slightly from the storyline. Still it's mostly an accurate representation of one of the most thrilling battles during the Three Kingdoms era.

It's a great entry into the story. The film has two editions.. a cinema one at 2.5 hours long, and a full extended home version at just under 5 hours. It's amazing because even the 5 hour version only tells the story of two chapters in the novel, out of 120!

If you're interested in reading the novel, this is the version I recommend (no affiliate). It's the best version to read, and once you've completed it just get Part 2. Make sure it's unabridged!

There's also a recent TV series (2010) of the same name, Three Kingdoms. Like Red Cliff, it's also in Mandarin, but subtitles are available as well. For the series though you will likely have to find it online, whereas the film you could buy locally if you wanted to.

I just started watching the series, it's fantastic. It's 100% accurate to the storyline.

Many other films and series have been produced on the story of the Three Kingdoms. Besides the couple that I listed, all the others are rubbish, so don't bother. These are the best ones.

One disclaimer, is that although it is historical non-fiction, some of the novel is, to put it bluntly, myth. It's not explicitly stated, but you'll know what I'm talking about when you come across it. I'd say it's about 70% historically accurate, with the other 30% being myth. It's obviously real, since there are monuments throughout China that were raised more than a thousand years ago in honour of great heroes of the Three Kingdoms.


(Kongming, a brilliant strategist that served Shu)

I thought it was going to bug me, but I found it quite fascinating, and it doesn't detract from the experience. It's written that way at times to embellish, that's all.

I'd like to discuss more, since it's a part of history I'm very passionate about, but I'll leave it there for now. I could talk about the Three Kingdoms all day if I wanted to. Whenever I come across a Chinese who's born in China I always discuss the story with them. They learn about it as a kid, and are all too familiar with the important figures of the novel...

***

Anyone else familiar with the Three Kingdoms?

For those who aren't, as you can tell from the tone of my post, I strongly recommend the novel to you, especially if you're a student of history.

I'll add more on shortly as well.

Post: #2

I used to go to Chinese language school as a kid and I remembered being shown this anime in Mandarin there





It started off a life long interest. I actually started playing the Romance of the Three Kingdoms video games too just because of the subject matter. I had been exposed to the game before since it's pretty big in Taiwan and Japan but it was learning about the actual back story that made me want to play it.

It's no exaggeration to say RotK is one of the top 5 most important novels in Chinese history. Guan Yu is to this day worshiped as a deity and held up as a symbol of Chinese manhood. A lot of stock phrases in Chinese such as "Speak of Cao Cao and Cao Cao arrives" (the Chinese version of 'Speak of the devil') are because of the novel.

Post: #3

I can't watch asian historical films. With everyone having the same "historically correct" hairdo I can't distinguish characters.

Post: #4

(05-23-2015 10:55 PM)Mage Wrote:  I can't watch asian historical films. With everyone having the same "historically correct" hairdo I can't distinguish characters.

Give Red Cliff a try!

It's a great film.

Its soundtrack is among the very best out there, too.

Post: #5

Just watched Red Cliff. Indeed it was a great film! Thanks for recommending it Nascimento.

What caught my eye in your post was that it was directed by John Woo. The other night I saw another of his films, "The Killer" (1989) and was a great movie.

Post: #6

Nice! Was it the extended edition? That one takes some energy to pull through in one day but it's definitely worth it.

I'm going to see it again once more very soon.

Post: #7

It was the "Theatrical Version" on Netflix. I just googled it, and it must've been the "watered-down" version that's only 148 minutes long as opposed to the "monster" one of 288 minutes.

Netflix robbed me! I'm going to have to get my hands on that extended cut. How can they cut out half the movie? I guess most people don't have the patience to watch a film that's just under 5 hours! Holy smokes, but the film just flowed so well.

Post: #8

Oh cool. If it's on Netflix that means more people will get a chance to see it. Yeah, if you liked it it's worth giving the extended edition a go some other time. You probably didn't miss any of the major scenes, but you will have missed a lot of the build up and character development. There's a tiger hunt scene in Part 1 extended that was influential in giving Quan the confidence he sorely needed to lead the resistance, for example.

Admittedly, most of the extended edition is slow. But it's interesting because a lot of effort is placed on the culture, and since it's an Asian film and not Hollywood you get to see some really special stuff. Not everything is about drama or over the top action scenes.

Example, in case you missed this scene:





One of the movie's best scenes is Kongming's fog mission on the river. Did you catch that one?

Post: #9

As someone ethnically Chinese, Three Kingdoms has appealed to me ever since I first found out about it. The 2010 tv series is extremely good. Honestly one of the best historical dramas (though not all factual) I have ever seen. It's long enough to cover all major plot points and there's great character development. My favorite character ended up being Cao Cao due to just how well the actor plays him (Cao Cao's wisdom and craftiness).

Meanwhile Red Cliff had good action that did the historical battle justice. But was a little lacking when it came to casting; many of the actors did not seem to match up with their roles. Overall though, I did like it enough to give a recommendation.

Historically speaking, the Three Kingdoms era was a short period in Chinese history but an exciting one due to the amount of great men that arose. It's certainly my favorite.

Post: #10

I'm through just the first 10 episodes or so of the series. It's great so far.. I can't wait until I get into the meat of the story. The fact there's 95 episodes is nothing short of outstanding...

Btw, I found links on youtube to part 1 and part 2 of the film, with subtitles, in case anyone wanted to check them out:

Post: #11

For me, watching the three kingdoms (and their leaders) slowly begin to take shape is simply awesome. At heart this classic is about the ambitions of men, (plus their loyal followers) and the things they do to attain power and keep others from gaining it. It's mentioned that only one who has great ambition in his heart/chest (胸怀大志) can truly lead the world ('China'). This pretty much was Game of Thrones way before Game of Thrones.

Post: #12

*some story spoilers*

I used to have a favorite.. The Sun house I've always fancied more than the others. I used to look down on Cao because I felt he was too hateful, ruthless if you will. And I looked down on Liu Bei because he's not the competent leader he should have been and would have been nothing without Guan Yu and Kongming.

But now, I see Cao for the cunning man he is. He's the most intelligent of the 3 leaders, by far. If he hadn't lost at Chi Bi he would have surely conquered all of China. I'll never forget his line, "I'd rather betray the world, than have it betray me." Survival of the fittest at its finest.

Too bad Sun Ce died so young. And Zhou Yu couldn't get over the fact he was inferior to Kongming and his anxiety literally killed him. Overall, I thought once Quan took over, Wu became too passive. They were aggressive, but not boldly. They would defend well, but not seek push back in vengeance. Limited their success.

As far as Shu, as soon as Guan Yu dies in my opinion that is where their slow descent began. Liu Bei lost devastatingly at Yi Ling and Shu would never after that point have a stronger army. Once he passes and his son takes over Shu, things plummet quickly. His incompetence must have been because he was dropped on his head. Kongming only delayed the inevitable surrender to Wei. Jiang Wei tried his best in his position after he passed, but the Simas were too strong.

Wei had the best commander. Shu had the best army generals. Wu had the greatest minds (Zhou Yu, Luxun and Lumeng were geniuses).

Yet they all failed to capitalize upon their strengths. I guess that's why Jin arising from Wei would be the one to finally unite the kingdom.

Post: #13

In Chinese culture Cao Cao has always been depicted as a villain while Liu Bei as a virtuous ruler. I'm pretty sure the story about him killing his uncle and then saying "I can betray anyone under heaven but no one under heavan can betray me" was put in Romance of the Three kingdoms which as you mentioned is also filled with lots of folklore and legend was a literary device as a way to show how cruel and ruthless he could be.

Post: #14

Wow Nas, your thoughts are so similar to mine it's actually hard to figure out where my opinions differ. I'm shocked in a good way.

My least favorite is the House of Shu, specifically because of Liu Bei. For a man who had the best strategist in history and some of the best generals in the land under his command, he really underperformed. A shame too as he had such ambition and an actual blood tie to the Han dynasty.

While everyone knows of the brilliance of Zhuge Liang and the valor of Guan Yu, Zhao Yun was a general on par with if not better than Guan Yu. There was a reason why Zhuge Liang favored him above the other superb generals in Shu.

I have more to say but it's getting late over here...

Post: #15

Admittedly I have forgot some important details. Indeed Zhao Yun was a monster on the battlefield. Too bad he suddenly passed away when he was needed most.

Can't forget other worthy Shu generals either... Ma Chao, Huang Zhong, Guan Ping, Wei Yan.. Although if I recall correctly the latter eventually turned against Shu.

Now that I talk about Shu's generals, we've got to remember who the Five Tigers were. Already mentioned four of them, plus also Zhang Fei. Though in my opinion his only worthy contribution (and a significant one it was) was his sole stand at the bridge to thwart the advance of Cao Cao's army.

So true about Shu. So much squandered potential. I felt bad for ZLiang. He pulled so much weight and stress for the longest time, and Liu Chan(?) was just worthless as the Shu leader.

I've got to make more ground with the series, I feel like I only remember 50% of what actually happened. So many details I've forgotten.

Post: #16

I know when I was younger I was obsessed with Dynasty warriors(video game) and all of the series and later to find out it was actually real got me to reading. This defiantly peaks my curiosity. Is there a show subbed in english?

Post: #17

I'm also familiar with DW, it's actually how I got into 3Kingdoms myself.

The show is called Three Kingdoms, make sure its the 2010 version... There's 95 episodes in total. Search for it on google, include jiang hu as well for that includes english subs.

If you can't find it, send me a PM and I'll direct it to you.

Post: #18

Zhou Yu is one of my favorites as well. Although best known as THE strategist for Wu, he was also the grand admiral and pretty much handled all military affairs until his early death.

The win at Red Cliff was mainly due to the use fire which he and Zhuge Liang conceived of at the same time.

Unfortunately, Zhou Yu seemed to have an inferiority complex after meeting Zhuge Liang and could never get over it. He died cursing Zhuge's birth into this world.

Fortunately, his successors was incredible too. You could say that Lümeng and Lu Xun were the men that brought down Liu Bei. Lümeng by taking care of Guan Yu and Lu Xun by winning at Yi Ling.

As the saying goes, '江东才子多才俊' (many indeed are the skilled men of the southeast).

Post: #19

I never sat through the whole thing. I remember I was in Taipei when it came out and it was generally panned by people there. I tried watching a few minutes of it and it was just Liu Bei playing the pi pa. Didn't hold my interest.

However, the books are great. Cao Cao is often considered a bad guy(the Chinese phrase for speak the devil and he appears is actually speak Cao Cao and he appears), but he does have his partisans. One of the strengths of the book is its political realism, even if there are a few supernatural events thrown in for good measure.

The two hour version available on Netflix is actually a condensed version for international audiences from the two part version released in the Chinese world. I should give this another look. Maybe I was a bit harsh on it at the time.

Post: #20

I always found it comical how Zhou Yu died because of his anxiety. He just couldn't handle being the second best mind in the realm.

If I remember correctly, Sun Ce also had a peculiar death. He was cursed by some guy and fell ill and died because of constant stress and sleepless nights.

Post: #21

Haha I agree, that it is funny. I guess some men just can't accept second place (Michael Jordan comes to mind).

I thought of the Yuan brothers as the funniest prominent characters. Basically both were born with silver spoons in their mouths and either one could've taken the throne with numbers alone... but as we know neither man was up to the task compared to Cao Cao.

Post: #22

(05-23-2015 03:26 PM)Nascimento Wrote:  "The empire, long divided, must unite; long united, must divide."

Anyone know the original Chinese for this phrase?

Post: #23

I was inspired to search for this topic because of the video game thread, literally everything I know about the three kingdoms is because of the video game.





ROTK II. I still load it up on an emulator and play it from time to time, and I get an adrenaline rush every time I hear the battle music. It's not right, really.

It's interesting reading this thread because all of what is posted here about the various leaders is well represented by the game. If I didn't know any better, I would think you all were describing a hardcore ROTK II session.

I've searched many times for a more up-to-date version of this game or something similar but it seems like all the best were only sold in the asian market and weren't translated.

Post: #24

(05-27-2015 12:07 PM)Sargon of Akkad Wrote:  

(05-23-2015 03:26 PM)Nascimento Wrote:  "The empire, long divided, must unite; long united, must divide."

Anyone know the original Chinese for this phrase?

《三国演义》第一回：“话说天下大势，分久必合，合久必分

Most people just say this end part. What is long divided must unite. Long united must divide. 分久必合，合久必分

Its like in English most people just say, "The grass is greener..." Or "Speak of the Devil..." They don't say the whole thing, because everyones heard it many times.

Post: #25

Great to see this thread active again.

Coincidentally, I just resumed watching the series I referenced in this thread about a week ago. I never made it past the first 20 episodes, I got distracted.

Now I'm at around the 30 episode mark. Great stuff.