Post: #26

Dalaran, I'm also a fellow asian that grew up in home country but came to USA at 12. Since then I've lived all over the US, have done fair share of traveling, and also lived and worked in Japan for two years.

I'm 29 now and I regret some of the things I have done with regard to my heritage. In many ways I echo your sentiment. For years I went out of my way to distance myself from my culture. But now I'm starting to see a bigger picture of where I fit in the world. While the US and western culture has allowed me to grow personally, I find myself thinking nostalgically more and more about my culture. At the end of the day we all want to be in a place where we feel like we belong. I regret some of the things I have done to distance myself from my culture.

Your dilemma is primarily a cultural one. My advice is to not be black and white about this decision. If it's possible to maintain a foothold in Vietnam and your culture while continuing to live in the West, that might leave more doors open for you later.

Because like most wise and older posters have already said you're only 24. Yeah you've done a lot but your brain and bag of experiences have a bit more to go. Don't close doors on yourself.

Post: #27

Dalaran, I’m onboard with everyone else who says your parents are offering you a fantastic opportunity, but we need more info about your prospects in Europe to make any worthwhile recommendations. You (or your parents) say you’ll be “middle management” in Europe, but let’s not underrate middle management. That’s a huge range of jobs, many of which pay very well.

So - will you be in the running for prestigious entry-level positions in Europe? I’m thinking top consulting firms, i-banks, elite doctoral and professional programs, or whatever the equivalent may be in your field.

If so, that changes the calculus and I think you’re probably better off going for that. If not, then I’d head home.

When thinking about the trajectory of your career, one of the key things to remember is that it’s easy to jump from a “big pond” to a “little pond” (eg, from an i-bank to a financial advisory firm in your hometown). Going the other direction is much harder, if not impossible.

Accordingly, you want to start your career in the "biggest pond" available to you. If you don’t, you run the risk of becoming the proverbial big fish in a little pond, and wishing you could work somewhere more prestigious, with more interesting clients, better mentors, high caliber colleagues, and overall a higher ceiling for you professionally.

By the same token: this is way too early in your career to decide based on “lifestyle.” You can always change your job situation to work less, travel more, move to a new city/country, etc. You typically can’t re-open the opportunities that are foreclosed by opting for the “little pond” too early.

So, TLDR: Where are your professional prospects better, Europe or Vietnam? That’s where you need to be.

Post: #28

This might seem obvious, but if you choose to remain an expat, make sure you have a good chat with your parents, so they know where they stand, and to make sure none of you have unexpressed feelings about the situation.

Also, how old are you? I'm guessing under 30 years old.

When you get to approx 35 or so, you will have a very different outlook on life, and the family business route might seem more promising. Also, by that time you will have much more refined people managing skills from your life experience. You might know a solid person who could manage the hotel for you while you continued to travel. There are so many possibilities.


Good luck.

Post: #29

Hey man, i'd first off like to say that after having lived in (northern) Vietnam for almost a year, i completely understand what you mean by the suffocating culture and the way people behave. i don't think people should have to live their lives that way.

(04-19-2015 09:15 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  Career-wise, I'm a lone wolf. I HATE having to manage people. Not to mention that managing properties and business has never been what I want to do. I'm a research specialist/sociologist by trade. I want to eventually open my own bar one day, but that's not the same as managing a hotel.

But this, should be the big ringer for you. if it's a position that you don't see yourself enjoying on a day-to-day basis, don't dip in.

I agree w/ the other poster that it's possible to manage some aspects of the hotel remotely. But, another option is to just try it out for a year or 2, and if you really don't like it hire someone else (or a cousin) to take over for you.
.

Post: #30

How are the job possibilities for you in Europe as a foreigner? Is there a visa issue?

I only ask because as a graduate student you're still in that protected bubble.

Post: #31

As much as I agree with the other posters' opinions I have some different opinions as well, so I'll bring in my own $0.02 as I'm an expat too and more or less (real estate vs. hotel) in the same situation.

Right off the bat, I can tell just by you considering this offer that you do see yourself doing this at some point. Your reasons for leaving your country is more or less the same as my reasons for leaving my country. The thing is, with the vision you acquired during your studies in the West you might look at it in a different way when you go back. You might notice that all the small things you hated were in fact the small things that made that place livable. All your grad school friends will at some point get married or have a kid and you'll be stuck with your middle-class-by-european-standards job never truly fitting in. On the other hand you have the chance to have your own business which will give you the power of $$$ and everyone, especially hot girls will all of a sudden -magically- start to like you very much. You might then use some of that money to travel to beautiful Eastern Europe where you'll get the filthy rich treatment and use the rest to slowly expand your business and make even more money.

I'm only 2 years older than you and 2 years ago I pretty much felt the exact same way. I didn't fit in back home, then I moved to 3 different countries and I didn't fit in in any of them. Right now I'm stuck in the feminist capital of the world where I'll pretty much never fit in, and thinking between moving back home to utilize cheap immigrant labor, my expat savings and recently inherited land from my grandparents to build some condos, or moving to a North American country to save more cash and do the other thing a few years later. The only thing keeping me here is my initial 'gain EU citizenship - use study aid to go to college in rural Russia - bang' plan which I only have 2 years left, but I might not even wait that long.

Your reasons was the exact reasons I left home 5-6 years ago and I'm starting to think this "fitting in" thing starts in one's head. I at least realized that cash, and only cash is king.

Just my 0.02$.

(And this is my first post. I lurked for a few weeks, then I just registered only to see I can only get approved at the beginning of a month, then I bought lifetime gold immediately. Just the fact that this forum exists brought tears to my humble eyes in this feminism infested land. The best $21 I ever spent. Thanks to all of you people for making this happen.)

Post: #32

"They want to buy a medium hotel as their legacy for me and I would be the manager. At first they will lend me money for operational costs etc."

^ As someone who's spent plenty of time in and around family business this right here is what you need to clarify with them. If they control the money then they will control you. The guy who just got a 7 day ban wrote something to the effect of, "If you show that you're competent, your controlling parents will hand over the reins..."

How confident are you that they'll "hand over the reins" without a lot of bullshit? If they "hand over the reins" at all...

If they were controlling back then, what's to say they won't be controlling when they're doing so much for you?

Your parents miss the hell out of you - hence the false time constraint on this opportunity (game recognized: parents). Just because you should visit more often doesn't mean you have to take out a loan to manage a hotel in Vietnam.

^This will be a psychotic amount of work that you don't seem too keen on doing in a country where you don't want to live... and that's excluding any parental meddling.

Family business is easy to enter and very difficult to leave.

Post: #33

(04-20-2015 11:49 AM)LouieG Wrote:  So - will you be in the running for prestigious entry-level positions in Europe? I’m thinking top consulting firms, i-banks, elite doctoral and professional programs, or whatever the equivalent may be in your field.

So, TLDR: Where are your professional prospects better, Europe or Vietnam? That’s where you need to be.

Thanks everyone for in-depth advice. TLDR: read bolded

24 years old (it's in my username) and finishing up my studies at La Sorbonne here. Right now I'm interning at the biggest market research firm in Europe. It's not Well Fargos, but it actually IS the Well Fargos of someone who did social sciences. If I do well and get hired after September, I'm looking at roughly 3k euro/month. Then I can start the naturalization process.

The whole "you can only be a grunt in the West" is kinda a limiting beliefs that Asian people have, though taking into account racism that actually is true. I guess I'll be working corporate for a few years until my saving allows me to start my own consulting business or open a bar. Or I stay at the firm and become Research Director/Client Director popping 6k euros/month. It's not the end of the world.

If things go well I should have my EU citizenship in 3-4 years max, 2 years if I'm lucky.

Back home, there's guarantee that there's no job for a sociology grad. I doubt most people even know what Sociology is. This hotel business, which I'm still not totally clear about, is in Da Nag, a young and fast growing city in Vietnam. The thing is, doing hospitality business in Vietnam means doing a lot of shady shit and greasing palms as you know the corruption culture here is rampant. The big advantage is that I speak 2 foreign languages and that really is a gem in this backward country, especially in this business.

I don't know shit about management or running business though, although I do have good people skills. If I pull this off, I'm looking at around 5 billions VND (around 250k$) total profit after 5 years. That's a fuck load of $ back home. Also good thing I will be able to game tons of Western tourist girls.

To be really honest if you guys, I think I can pull this off IF I decide to go back, I'm just not sure I'll be happy doing it though. I worked in a finance firm for François Pinault last summer and though it pays fuck well I hated the job.

Best scenario is to get EU citizenship and then come back in 3-4 years but mom and pop saying you gotta jump the bandwagon NOW.

Quote:all your grad school friends will at some point get married or have a kid and you'll be stuck with your middle-class-by-european-standards job never truly fitting in.

Holy mother fuck I never thought about this....

Right now I'm living the dream. Going to work then hang out with my friends. Going to martial arts and salsa dancing and hit it off with the girls there. I thought I could live like this forever. THere will come a point where all my friends will settle down and things will start to go down hill I guess.

But then, why would it be any better to go back? I have no friends in Vietnam, and experience have shown me that there are some American/French people I would die for, and some Vietnamese people I would wish the worst on. I guess I will never really fit in anywhere if we want to go down that fatalistic thinking path.

Quote:If they were controlling back then, what's to say they won't be controlling when they're doing so much for you?

No shit. I have always been grateful for my parents supporting me financially studying my Master, but it's suffocating since they inquire about every expenses I make. Yeah, game recognized I remember the first thing my sister (who is now filthy rich) said when she got her first job "Now finally I no longer have to do what they tell me to" I know my parents love me and so do I, but it's clear this complicates things a bit.

Onto and JayJuanGee, Viet girls make fuckawesome LTR material for a white guy, but wait until they put that ring on you (game recognized: Viet girls) I'll still treat you boys to that hotel suite on white-sand beach with a cute Viet local though

Post: #34

I do agree about the EU citizenship thing but you shouldn't let the other opportunity pass either. It is true that your parents miss you and are biased, it is also pretty safe to assume that (no matter how strong it seems otherwise) they'll always want whatever's best for you.

One EU expat to another I'll tell you that 3k euro is not a be-all-end-all amount. It's not bad money either (assuming it's after taxes). But I do think your choice with staying at a big firm is good because of career opportunities. I didn't do that, I went with the small firm that paid more, mainly because I didn't want to work an unpaid internship for god knows how many months; but also because the week before I signed the contract I was in Russia picked up two girls and really wanted to sign the first offer I came across and go back for one last rumble before I'm tied down 9 to 5. Now I'm stuck with the same-paying small firm with no career path to advance (and therefore job seeking right now)

Racism does exist. People on the street see you as one of the social security feeding types that walk around all day and harass folks. This won't change. I know a 45 year old greek woman who was fucking born here and she still gets racial slurs on the street because of her hair color.

By the way $250k in 5 years is not that much money either. Though I'm guessing this is net profit after 5 years and you'll net considerably more the following years. You can buy a second hotel and re-invest your profits, and use the rest to game eastern europe, nobody's telling you to hang out with vietnamese women You will do whatever shady shit you require to gain cash, since we established "cash is king" in one of the above posts.

I think you should really sit down with your parents over Skype and explain them the dilemma you are in right now. I believe when they see things from your point of view they'll take that into consideration as well, and make an informed decision about what's best for you.

Post: #35

If you can turn that internship into a job which eventually gets you French citizenship it sounds like you should go that route. If you go home that will be closed to you.

Maybe you can convince your parents of the value of the EU citizenship.

Post: #36

Look at it this way.. if you asked my Thai friends if they could turn the clock back and invest in some real estate and businesses in Bangkok way back in the late 90's-early 00 half of them would probably give their left nut to do so.

Same thing with the few Mainland Chinese friends I have. They would give their left nut to invest back then in either Beijing or Shanghai.

All of them simply didn't have money or resources back then but you do.

That is the situation Vietnam is in right NOW.

Post: #37

(04-20-2015 05:26 PM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  Look at it this way.. if you asked my Thai friends if they could turn the clock back and invest in some real estate and businesses in Bangkok way back in the late 90's-early 00 half of them would probably give their left nut to do so.

Same thing with the few Mainland Chinese friends I have. They would give their left nut to invest back then in either Beijing or Shanghai.

All of them simply didn't have money or resources back then but you do.

That is the situation Vietnam is in right NOW.

Thanks for reminding me about the developing country real estate game. I assumed you were just taking over the hotel licenses and equipment etc. and the actual building was only a lease. If it is a prime area or it will be in 10 years you should absolutely take this offer.

This is the same thing in Turkey. I got a brand new BMW the day I started college in the '00s because my parents (especially my mother) worked like hell throughout the '80s - '90s and made wise real estate investments. Even the $50k condo I got in Istanbul in 2007 was worth around $300k in 2013. This is the developing country real estate game. It's a developing country which means there's still room for development and it will be exponentially hard to acquire wealth as the country develops.

I'm not boasting or anything, I could only have these things because my parents were smart. The not-so-smart Turks in the '80s immigrated to Germany because they wanted decent living right there and then, and Germany had very good living standards compared to Turkey. Today, aside from the entrepreneurial few, they continue to live frugally and get constantly shat on by the locals of their countries.

Like I said if you see potential for growth, don't miss it! Don't think about right now, think about 10 years later. Maybe buy the building and just hold it and run it in 2 years after you get your citizenship.

Post: #38

Is there any way you can get the best of both worlds? Convince your parents to invest in this hotel and then find somebody you can trust to run it for you in the meantime (maybe RVFers who are interested in moving to Da Nang would help manage the place, but you would probably need a local be in charge, deal with authorities, etc). In the meantime, get a EU passport and then decide whether you want to move back.

Post: #39

This new law allowing foreigners to own property and lease it out is going to help Vietnam a lot.

The caveat is a foreigner can only "own" it for 50 years.

Now I'm thinking about owning a hotel in Vietnam.

http://www.thanhniennews.com/politics/fo...34527.html

EDIT: This other article makes it seem more difficult and perhaps you can't "sublease" it out as a rental.

https://www.justlanded.com/english/Vietn...e-property

Either way, real estate is all about timing and it sure does seem like now is the time to buy in Da Nang and ride the wave up.

Post: #40

(04-20-2015 06:51 PM)Onto Wrote:  This new law allowing foreigners to own property and lease it out is going to help Vietnam a lot.

In practice i'd be wary of how this actually works out as with doing any investing in the developing world. This reminds me of the Amity treaty the U.S. has with Thailand. In theory it works especially if you're a big U.S. business or you have connections. It's supposed to provide many advantages and allow U.S. business owners to hold majority stake.

However if you're a small businessman or entrepeneur you will get hustled hard all the same and no guarantee the local bureaucracy will give a damn about the "law" on the books when it comes time to relieve you of your shit.

As with anywhere else in asia what it all boils down to is connections and influence.

Post: #41

^^ What are apartment prices like in Da Nang?

@Dalaran
As fun as France can be, it's not the land of opportunity. Far from it. The French are living on borrowed time.

In my humble opinion, as a rapidly developing market Vietnam will offer you much better prospects if you get into the game now. Go to France on holiday when you are making good money. Hell, if your hotel does well I'm sure you will be able to sell it. Think with your brain, not just your heart.

Post: #42

There are top tier hotel management schools in France and surrounding countries. Extend your time in EU with that.

You could network and learn much on the schools, do an management internship in a hotel in Vietnam, learn the ropes, learn what kind of people to hire to manage. I suppose you speak a couple of useful languages in that sense.

What would you guys say?

Post: #43

Dalaran, as I said in the first page, you could always take part in a marriage of convenience to an EU national if you were left with no other options; just make sure to have all your financial affairs in order.

Oh yes, I'm so privileged you literally can't even.
Interested in joining the FFL? I tried (and failed).

Post: #44

(04-21-2015 03:49 PM)Porfirio Rubirosa Wrote:  Dalaran, as I said in the first page, you could always take part in a marriage of convenience to an EU national if you were left with no other options; just make sure to have all your financial affairs in order.

I think in France he can become a citizen after 2 years since he will have finished grad school there. This is not the case in Sweden where you have to live 5 years, and as a worker or partner to a Swedish citizen (time spent on a student visa doesn't count) Or I can go back and apply for political asylum, then I'll become a citizen in 2 years and also free money and housing from the government instead of paying almost half of what I make to them.

Post: #45

(04-21-2015 04:06 PM)the Thing Wrote:  

(04-21-2015 03:49 PM)Porfirio Rubirosa Wrote:  Dalaran, as I said in the first page, you could always take part in a marriage of convenience to an EU national if you were left with no other options; just make sure to have all your financial affairs in order.

I think in France he can become a citizen after 2 years since he will have finished grad school there. This is not the case in Sweden where you have to live 5 years, and as a worker or partner to a Swedish citizen (time spent on a student visa doesn't count) Or I can go back and apply for political asylum, then I'll become a citizen in 2 years and also free money and housing from the government instead of paying almost half of what I make to them.

They would grant you (a Turkish citizen) asylum? I knew the Swedes were quite liberal with their asylum polices (at the State's expense of course) but I didn't know they were so generous.

Oh yes, I'm so privileged you literally can't even.
Interested in joining the FFL? I tried (and failed).

Post: #46

After reading the first half of your post, I was going to immediately reply, but I saw Espresso already beat me to saying exactly what I had in mind.

"Our greatest mistake in life isn't aiming high and failing; it's aiming low and succeeding."

Go with your gut on this one.

**Edit after reading other comments: Just to be more specific, my input is just food for thought, not trying to pin you in a direction. At the end of the day, we can only help you clear your mind and enhance your perspective. Like Peregrine said, no one here can judge your situation as well as you can, it's too subjective.

Just go with the option you feel is more right, deep down.

Post: #47

Who says you can't do both? Why not stay in Vietnam for a little while, a few years if you don't mind spending the time and be with your parents while saving up. It seems like a fantastic business opportunity that you could build mountains off of if you do it correctly. Then, if you don't like it, or your parents are being too controlling, you find a replacement manager and bounce to Europe. You'll have some cash to start you off, probably tremendous social and business savvy from managing a hotel for a few years, and you will have spent the time with your family and don't have to feel guilty. Wins all a round, unless you don't want to give it a try at all.

Post: #48

(04-19-2015 09:15 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  Career-wise, I'm a lone wolf. I HATE having to manage people. Not to mention that managing properties and business has never been what I want to do. I'm a research specialist/sociologist by trade. I want to eventually open my own bar one day, but that's not the same as managing a hotel.

That, and the whole thing about managing something for my parent (even though it would eventually be mine) just stinks with me. I don't like to owe my parents anything, especially because they have been very controlling in the past.


What do you guys think I should do?

If you're gonna be a lone wolf, you better be one bad ass motherfucking wolf.

Post: #49

I guess I wasn't clear in my OP.

I would jump on this opportunity no question asked, if it doesnt have a "this offer will expire soon! Grab your copy of xyz TODAY"

I would love to start a business, even if it is in Vietnam, but my parents are telling me to come back NOW aka this September, and if I leave now it will be very difficult to come back to Europe later unless I get filthy rich or get a job in Europe, which is unlikely fi you are applying from a 3rd world. I havent an EU citizenship yet. Plus my life here just started to blossom. So if I leave I’m closing my escape hatch, and if things go bad in VN (unlikely) the last thing I want on earth is getting stuck in that hellhole. And my parents dont trust anyone else other than me to entrust this business to.

I’ve never had to make such a difficult decision in life. If I can postpone the offer for 2 years I would post a thread « starting hotel business in VN. Come visit RVF ! »

Post: #50

@Dalaran

TBH it sounds like ur parents are luring you into a (emotional) trap just to get you home. From what you have told us about your background, I'm sure your parents have their fair share of strong connections back home (otherwise they won't have a hotel to run d'oh). And would like you back home by hook or crook haha...

After weighing your options, I guess its not so bad. But keep a few things in mind when you decide to make the move:

i) that "working for someone else" attitude has to go the moment you set foot in Vietnam soil. FROM DAY ONE. You're back home now and you are nobody's bitch. But, of course, stay humble, make a few important friends and you will be on your way faster than any one else.

I spent about 4 years dilly dallying upon my return and it really made life miserable. In SEA, if you're an employee you're basically fucked. Start your own biz, and opportunities comes rolling in.

ii) it also sounds like you won't have a good time managing the locals.

Find someone who is able to do it better, OR handpick those who can adapt to the "western" style of managing. Don't forget the lowest wage earners are absolute headache and behave like children.

iii) Don't fall into the "drinking to socialize" trap.

I have friends in Vietnam with businesses, gov connections and boy, do they drink. These are guys with chiseled abs, rock solid bodies and they're gone 6 months back in Vietnam. So. Keep the iron pumping brother!

As for life there, I'm sure you will settle back in, and pull the hottest poon in no time! All my friends seem to be living it up there and I am sure you will too.