Post: #26

(04-15-2015 07:10 AM)BBinger Wrote:  I apologize if drunk post took a bit of a paranoid turn. I indeed spent way too long in the academic bubble, but I got to see the decline of the American University over 8 years and three campuses. I've been out nearly three years now.

Watching what happened through 8 years of Bush II and 8 years of Obama... The prospect of Hillary Clitler in the White House... Leaving forever might be extreme, but leaving for an indefinite period of time is on the table.

I am in agreement with the poster who pointed out more stuff WORKS in the USA than in almost anywhere else except Germanic or other European countries or Japan.

The only big GOTCHA that I see is the women are extremely demanding and picky which can make it a sexual hell hole if you're not in the desired demographic.

Other thing is when someone says "permanent" or "forever" there really is no such thing, until AFTER the fact. I've said the same thing, I'm never going back etc....Others here the same. After one two five ten years, you may change your mind no matter what you say now.


Only the MOST pissed off, paranoid, alienated, malcontented guy, who is constantly on about govt plots etc, I know-- who never held down a job long and has alienated his whole family by repeatedly bumming money off them with no intent of paying them off has left and I believe genuinely never will go back.

Even his own mother has told him she doesn't want him around.

I'm not saying every perm expat is anti-social like that, but there is a lot that works in the USA.

Ironically, the high standards that make us outraged about any malfeasance or incompetence in the USA are perhaps themselves a product the standards developed as one grows up where things basically work.

But at the same time, I've made out with more girls in the Philippines in the last 6 months than the whole other 40 years of my life post-puberty in the USA.

And the MIT professor who you don't like-- his last name is spelled "Chomsky".

And an "ark" is a water vessel mentioned in the Bible. I believe the word you were looking for is "arc".

Post: #27

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Post: #28

The stupidity in some of the posts in this thread has only made my "ignore list" much longer.

I'll like to give a shout out to Brodiaga and others for making rational posts.

Renouncing citizenship is retarted unless you make millions (Eduardo Saverin), otherwise it's just male-hamster.

Post: #29

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Post: #30

^Most people will never become millionaires (in today's dollars) with or without US citizenship.

If a multimillionaire decides to give up his US citizenship based on advice from a team of good attorneys and CPAs, it is a rational decision which makes sense.

If a tin foil hat type of guy wants to do it because he is sick of SJWs at his school...well, that's a different story.

Post: #31

(04-18-2015 11:35 AM)Brodiaga Wrote:  ^Most people will never become millionaires (in today's dollars) with or without US citizenship.

If a multimillionaire decides to give up his US citizenship based on advice from a team of good attorneys and CPAs, it is a rational decision which makes sense.

If a tin foil hat type of guy wants to do it because he is sick of SJWs at his school...well, that's a different story.

I consider myself a rational "tin foil hat" guy and I would never give up the citizenship of any Western country - USA, Canada, EU, Switzerland etc. unless I had the opportunity to get something more superior any time.

Most people abdicating US citizenship have at least 10 mio. $ or more in assets and they could easily get the citizenship back if they wanted to.

Especially when you live in under-developed countries you tend to appreciate certain things that the Western developed ones do good. It's easy to complain about the place you have been born at, because you see all the weaknesses.

All countries have them - you just pick and choose a place which fits you better - before being at high-net-worth it's prudent to stay with a good thing.

Post: #32

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Post: #33

(04-18-2015 12:20 PM)JamesRodri Wrote:  

Quote:It's easy to complain about the place you have been born at, because you see all the weaknesses.

All countries have them -

Tru dat. I agree there.

But it's also easy to glorify other countries from a far. Here in Poland everyone dream of going to my country. People get genuinely excited when I tell them where I'm from.

Then I've met at least 2 people who have actually been there and said it was horrible.

I've lived and worked in the US, Austria, Germany, Switzerland, Czech Republic and Poland. I have talked with many more people and one of my best friends is from Norway.

Some countries have greater extremes like the US or Poland, but I always like to observe the average and probably that is the highest in Switzerland. There is no comparison even to Germany. Norway has far greater taxation and other limiting factors, but you really would have to start living in a country for real and working there - not only in your 10k/month expat job - to get a good feel of a place. Because for 6 months most countries can be fun - only after that the reality kicks in ever more.

http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/norway/

The OECD statistics are not bad in that respect, but it is true that the disposable income even for higher wages is not very big - still it truly depends on what you value in life.

Post: #34

(04-18-2015 11:22 AM)JamesRodri Wrote:  

(04-18-2015 10:41 AM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  Renouncing citizenship is retarted unless you make millions (Eduardo Saverin), otherwise it's just male-hamster.

I can think of no faster way to making millions than to stop paying all income and capital gains taxes. That's not stupid. I'd say thats pretty rational.

Only way to do that legally is by moving away, in the countries that allows for that, or renouncing your citizenship, in the case of the United States.

For Americans, you can move you and your business to Puerto Rico to pay no Fed taxes. I should say as of right now because we never know if or when Congress will change laws on how Puerto Rico residents are taxed.

No need to give up citizenship if it's the taxes you are having a problem with.

You still need to make enough to warrant the move as you will be required to employ three people. To be honest, I don't think most will be making enough to get anything out of the move. If you're making 100k a year, you are better off just living overseas 330 days a year to avoid taxes.

No giving up citizenship required.

Post: #35

I've re-breezed through this thread, and I'm not finding the post I thought to reply to. Perhaps it is elsewhere? (Or else sinusitis has got my skimming comprehension down?)

At any rate, somebody made the argument that perm expatriation only makes rational sense for the rich.

THIS piece says US expatriation reached a new quarterly record this year.
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/gabr...nship-2015
And it mentions a survey of ex-pats that contradicts the notion that only the rich are doing so for tax reasons - because roughly the same one-quarter to one-third with incomes in the 100K range are doing so as those in the 250K range: "Survey participants stated that high taxes were the primary reason for renouncing their citizenship. But the survey also found that contrary to popular belief, income was not a key factor in their decision.... There is, similarly, very little difference in renunciation intention between those with lower incomes and those with higher incomes..."

Such a decision is complex, no doubt. But I'd say a significant fraction of the people are thinking of "voting" with their feet, when it isn't simply a matter of love, family and convenience, or tax planning to expatriate.

Quote:In a survey conducted by the University of Kent between December 2014 and January 2015, 1,546 U.S. citizens and former citizens were asked why they no longer wanted to be Americans. Survey participants stated that high taxes were the primary reason for renouncing their citizenship. But the survey also found that contrary to popular belief, income was not a key factor in their decision.

“Of those who have renounced or relinquished US citizenship (142 of the total respondents), nearly half (43%) have annual pre-tax household incomes of under $100,000 (USD).

There is, similarly, very little difference in renunciation intention between those with lower incomes and those with higher incomes: of US citizen respondents with annual household incomes under $100,000 (USD), 28% are actively thinking of renouncing; of US citizen respondents with incomes above $250,000 (USD), 33% are actively thinking of doing so.”

“Of the US citizen respondents, 31% have actively thought about renouncing US citizenship and 3% are in the process of doing so,” the survey noted

Post: #36

(04-18-2015 10:41 AM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  The stupidity in some of the posts in this thread has only made my "ignore list" much longer.

I'll like to give a shout out to Brodiaga and others for making rational posts.

Renouncing citizenship is retarted unless you make millions (Eduardo Saverin), otherwise it's just male-hamster.

If you have an online business, why would you expose yourself to the regulatory nightmare, high taxes, high COL and outrageous healthcare costs...that we have in the U.S?

Sure, you can legally dodge most taxes by spending most of the year abroad, but you still have to file (which is egregious). And with the federal government's deficit...it's just a matter of time before that loophole goes.

I'll hold back my rants on why America is a cultural wasteland and the women are gross.

But for any guy making their living online, I'd say it behooves you to gtfo.

Post: #37

@Orson: It could be that some of those people are making peanuts but think that the gubbmint is taxing them to death.

So yeah, they are voting with their feet. But their logic does not make sense.

Post: #38

You would have to be insane to give up your US citizenship
in favor of a 3rd world country.

You been to Phily before? LOL Look into their retiree visa
program.

I would try to get another citizenship to ride along with your
US one and not replace.

The US might not be a perfect place....but it gives you options
and a safe place to return to.

Not sure how old you are.....Phily is great if you are too old to
succeed in USA....But good luck earning money there.

Argentina is a great place to hide from WW3 if we go down that
path. Its also not as levered up with debt as the rest of the world.
Relatively independent.

Goto each of these places for 30-60 days...then return home.
Go with your gut. You also might want to do this is several
different locations and see which one appeals to you the most.

Some of these places (phily) are great for girls....but offer a lower
quality of life if you have a GF.

PS. I have been to Phily 3 times and Arg twice. I would rather live
in Medellin than BA and have spent more than 30 days in both.

Good luck.

(04-14-2015 11:51 PM)BBinger Wrote:  I have been a RooshV reader for quite a long time and with the sheer amount of travel experience and knowledge I see on this forum I must wonder what information this forum might offer me with regards to permanent expatriation from the United States.

Having spent 2004-2008 in undergrad an 2008-2012 in grad school I can see where the lines fall, any person who wants to think for a living is doomed if the contemplate such a career in the present United States. One only needs to chart Noam Chompsky's career ark in the United States where he went from tolerated dissident to fringe blogger to see that the Effect of Bush II through Obama has been a nearly complete takeover of media in the United States by god only knows who.

At present I imagine as a first destination the Phillipines in order to decompress and learn to not suck in the way Americans do. As a second destination I plan for Argentina, because their immigration laws are the shit and they actually offer useful passports to naturalized (2 years) citizens. I do not at present plan to renounce my United States citizenship, but the future course of events seems such that I may be compelled to.

Any advice on moving to the Phillipines or Argentina indefinitely is welcome. Any advice on other destinations is exceedingly welcome. Over the course of this thread and my journey I further beseech serious respondents to entertain the possibility that I might out of necessity be a less than reliable narrator. In contrast to the Disney song it is a large world and I am but a small person seeking survival amongst it.

Post: #39

(04-17-2015 06:59 PM)Brodiaga Wrote:  -Most US citizens who live and work abroad don't have to pay taxes in the US because of tax treaties. If you earn less than about 100k/year abroad and work for a foreign company, you won't have to pay taxes on foreign income. If you work for yourself, you still have to pay social security and medicare contributions, but this leads to my next point.
-As a US citizen, you can get protection from the Embassy if you get in trouble. People from undeveloped countries have nowhere to go to in this case.

-You can get sick of living abroad at some point and change your mind and want to come back. Having a US passport will give you that option.

The exemption applies only to "earned" income defined as salary and similar. Does not apply to cpital gains, interest, dividends etc. You will still need to file a US tax return in addition to the foreign country's return. Theoretically tax treaties mean you pay the highest rate that would apply in either country, doesn't always work in practice. This may not mean much when you're in your 20s and not making lots of money but once you're older and have investments it can be a BIG costly problem to keep Us citizenship.

Best bet: travel, live in a country for years, THEN decide whether you want to give up your US citizenship.

Post: #40

Well for some of us, expatriation is more of a necessity for our dignity and survival. Some of us, due to recent events and the deliberate plot by the MSM, SJWs, and the Federal Government's Welfare State policies to dehumanize us, have been pushed to face the option of either expatriation or face a holocaust (whether externally or internally), which unlike the first one, will be seen as justified by history due to the ghetto conduct of those people for the past few decades.

Not to derail this, but what would you do if you faced the following:
-Your own people disowning you when you're trying to make an honest living.
-Your own people deifying thugs and crying racism when criminals rightfully get shot, while forgiving psychos when innocent people that get killed in a legit case of a hate crime.
-Getting outdone and overlooked in the job field and dating world by those who have less experience and game than you because you have to fight negative stereotypes.

Post: #41

Update, I ended up sobering up and have been in Uruguay six months now. Turns out leaving the US isn't such a big deal.

Post: #42

I would never give up my citizenship, however, I would give up resident status in a heartbeat, especially for those interested in saving money on taxes.

For the Philippines, if you marry a citizen, you can get the 13A residency visa, which offers many benefits. I might go this route myself. All the information is out there via google.

So keep your citizenship and passport, just look into residency visas.

Post: #43

Keep the American citizenship unless you're super-rich. They're gonna charge you an exit tax, make you jump through hoops at the embassy to give it up, and then put you on a public list of people who have renounced to shame you. US passport is valuable, but not a bad idea to get a second passport.

Post: #44

I started this thread quite a while ago, and as mentioned in the update I ended up in Uruguay. They aren't too big on visas and formalities here. How it works is you arrive in Uruguay with your apostilled birth certificate, you go to Migracciones, and the process continues from there.

Post: #45

Thanks for updating us on this. I've been thinking about doing this as well. I don't see many benefits to staying in the USA.

Post: #46

(06-09-2018 06:32 PM)BBinger Wrote:  I started this thread quite a while ago, and as mentioned in the update I ended up in Uruguay. They aren't too big on visas and formalities here. How it works is you arrive in Uruguay with your apostilled birth certificate, you go to Migracciones, and the process continues from there.

Congratulations on your offshore adventure. If you decide to submit an application for citizenship in Uruguay, be sure that you know what you need to prove. The citizenship process may not be what you think it is -- and it can be quite different than what a local attorney say it is. Just ask Expat Bob.

Quote:So many times I would have thrown in the towel and gone back to greener pastures if it were not for that light at the end of the tunnel which was the second passport. I have thrown away opportunity after opportunity whiling away the time in this communist backwater battling bureaucrats when I could have been building even more businesses and employing even more people, adding even more value to the world and innovating and creating even more new technologies.

We have wasted 4 years of our life chasing a lie.

https://expatbob.wordpress.com/2012/03/2...the-drain/

Post: #47

If you're gonna fully expatriate you'd better be ready to deal with fake Legionaries, MIT grads and other types of faggots. I recommend going to the war torn city of Kharkov. Or Hawaii where it takes 15 years to get a 500 ton USCG captains license.

Post: #48

Damn.. Fuckin' ingrates. I see y'all whine about how 'bad' the US is and I'm appalled. Lemme give you some perspective.

I was born in South Africa but I'm Nigerian. I've lived in Nigeria for a better part of my life. If you aware of happenings in Africa, you'd know Nigeria is a cesspool. Corruption. Bad road. No clean water. Measly salary. Poor education. Low standard of living. It's the Wild West.

There are students I know, brilliant minds who have designed revolutionary engineering prototypes and are struggling for funding and a chance to escape Nigeria.

And you're considering renouncing your US citizenship?

God.. I'd kill for a chance to get the damn citizenship.

Post: #49

The struggles of prior expats to get the citizenship here in Uruguay has been informative. The local stupidity here is profound. As a rule the Uruguayos and Uruguayas tend to be very poorly socialized. The upside is the Venezualan crisis has landed a substantial number of productive, educated, and hard working people here. The Venezualans share many of the common expat complaints with Uruguay, but they also are very motivated to make things work. Since Mujica left office things here have become less shitty, but the Uruguayo people are still the biggest problem with the country.

But there's a satisfaction in the victories here. Art and life are about the resistance of the medium. If you have ever wanted to be the alien who arrives and is better than the locals at everything, Uruguay just might be a solid choice. That has been my experience. It's not for everyone, it doesn't take a lot of time to see why this place has the highest suicide rate in Latin America.

To the fellow in Nigeria: Have you and the brilliant minds considered either improving the country or getting out? What is keeping you there and not in Germany?

Post: #50

(06-10-2018 01:34 PM)BBinger Wrote:  If you have ever wanted to be the alien who arrives and is better than the locals at everything, Uruguay just might be a solid choice. That has been my experience. It's not for everyone, it doesn't take a lot of time to see why this place has the highest suicide rate in Latin America.

That reminds me of another rampaging rant by Expat Bob: "Uruguay’s war against the Alpha Male"

https://expatbob.wordpress.com/2012/06/0...lpha-male/


BTW: I am not unduly knocking Uruguay, I am just saying that if you rely on a government for anything (e.g., citizenship) and expect an honest, logical, efficient process, then you may be no better off than if you had stayed in your country of origin. The best way to live a fully independent lifestyle is to travel as a PT (perpetual tourist, permanent traveler, past taxpayer [if not a U.S. citizen], etc.) and live as a free man who survives by his wiles and to expect absolutely nothing from nobody. It is no secret that most countries treat visitors far better than their own citizens, so make the most of it.