The fundamental problem that I have no idea how to solve

Conquistador Wrote:Don't know if you're familiar with Black Dragon. I've seen a few people here vouch for him, and others sort of dismiss him because he advocates open relationships. Anyway, he has a two date system. He takes a girl to a casual place to grab a drink for one hour. He gets a girl to do most of the talking like you do, he does kino, then he ends the date without a kiss. This is supposed to get the girl wondering about you, and allows her to experience sexual tension. Kissing without having sex with her lets the girl know you like her, and likely kills the mystery for her. Then you set up the second date at your place.

If you did everything right with kino, and possibly a few flirtatious innuendos she should agree. At the end of the date tell her she seems like a cool person, and we should do this again sometime, when she agrees, tell her you'll text her. Tell her you'll cook you guy's up something, and that she should bring a bottle of wine or something. After dinner she should be good to go. If she's somewhat prudish and or has ASD, set up another date (also at your place), assuming there was at least a heavy make out, fingering, or bj, if not ghost her. If she doesn't put out on third date, but still gets somewhat sexual, then it's up to you. She could be a time waster, or she really likes you and doesn't want to give it up to soon. You are only wasting your time and very little money at this point, assuming you keep the meets at your place

This is some good stuff right here.

I did almost exactly this a few nights ago on a date, but it was unintentional. I already had plans to go to a party after the date, so I went in with the mindset of “well, at least I’ll get to warm up on her lol”, so basically my attitude was pretty nonchalant.

And it came out through my body language and through my words. I didn’t have to make up any innuendo — i literally just re-phrased stuff she said to me with a shit eating grin on my face, and she ate it up. I honestly felt like I was kinda of trolling her by misinterpreting her, but by saying it with a slightly crooked smile and a little sparkle in your eye, well she can pick up on that.

i felt like we were having two conversations. a surface level, word based conversation, and then another one based on subcommunication cues.

For example, there were multiple times where my attention just drifted, and I gazed off in the distance. And I would hear her stop mid-sentence and try to come up with another topic to get my attention. I actually stepped away from her to dap up some other dude that I winged earlier lol

It’s also important to keep it short. It helped that I had plans, so I actually had a reason to keep it short. I realize that girls will do this to see how you respond — she will say she has plans to do something else because she has no real intention of sleeping with you on the first date. that’s cool, the only way that you can counter is having plans of your own.

it’s important to escalate both verbally and physically, too. physical escalation, kino, use that sparingly. all you need to do is express that you are comfortable touching her. touch the small of her back, her hands, do it briefly.

but the verbal escalation comes from you misinterpreting her words in a sexual manner.
Re-framing her own words is very powerful because it shows that you can capture and redirect her on a mental level. You can shape her dreams, you can literally change her perspective on any situation. and women love to talk anyway, so you really always have ammo. you can talk a girl into fucking you, but you can’t just kino a girl into sex except maybe on the dance floor when she’s on drugs. I’ll leave you to decide which path has less chance of backfiring on you.


So yes, there was definitely tension, and when I text this girl in a few days, I expect that she will be down for a netflix and chill or a let’s go salsa dancing then watch a movie at your place type of date.


Just wanted to say that Conquistador’s post is especially helpful for someone like Delta who said he doesn’t have perfect logistics. When you can’t just walk to 500 feet to your apartment, you really gotta get these girls latched on to you — and you do that by feeding them validation in bread crumbs (your words) rather than in whole loaves (heavy physical escalation or caveman game).

Of course perfect logistics is ideal, and you should work towards that. While you are working towards that though, it will only help you to learn actual Game so that you’re not just another chump who can’t talk to girls once you get to the city (if you decide to get better logistics)

But if you really just want a cute LTR w/o changing where you live, why not just run SA game?

Also, I agree that women these days are all too content to get validation from online. But real life trumps the internet on a visceral level, and if your rap is tight, you can still pull from nightgame. I’ll take a nightgame 6 over a 9 i met through social media anyday

Of course the goal is 9 from social circle/night game...but i’ll leave that topic to the experts

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(04-15-2019 02:34 PM)Conquistador Wrote:  I could be wrong, but I get the impression that Delta wants a relationship, not first date bangs. Not completely mutually exclusive, but pretty close. He will probably look down on her for giving it up right away, and she will probably feel ashamed for not being 'relationship material.'

While a girl who you bang the first night often isn't relationship material (and vice versa), the game necessary to get a first-date bang and to get a girl to date longer-term is far more similar than different nowadays.

The entire notion that playing it slow and safe will get you a relationship is antiquated in the west, and ESPECIALLY so if you are relying on online game. If you're meeting girls in your social circle or in a niche setting like a church group, that's different and the long game can work. But with meeting girls from dating apps or nightgame, pushing for the bang in a non-needy but masculine way will almost never hurt your chances (with the exception of going too far and mistaking a genuine "no" from LMR).

Hanging out with a girl for 3 hours at a bar, kissing her a few times, and then ending it there without even an attempt to close (even worse is asking about or discussing future dates) will often get you placed in the "nice guy" bracket. Even relationship quality younger girls don't want a nice guy. They want somebody who is willing to take risks.

Delta -- your logistics definitely could be better (agreed with PT that next door is always money) but they aren't zero. Do you have any venues at all that are a ~5-10 min drive from your place? If so, I would try to set up dates there and get a girl to come back after. I've done this many times. Alternatively, try to find places closer to where she lives and then see if she invites you to her place afterwards (it can happen esp if you discuss something of hers like a piano, artwork, etc). Meeting in the middle is the absolute worst option for dates and I avoid it at all costs.

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(04-15-2019 08:57 PM)RDF Wrote:  But with meeting girls from dating apps or nightgame, pushing for the bang in a non-needy but masculine way will almost never hurt your chances (with the exception of going too far and mistaking a genuine "no" from LMR).

You disregarded the whole premise of my post. Assuming this is about you: how many satisfying relationships have you had when you banged the girl on the first date? Delta has his own issues which we don't really know about. Being a high SMV male, maybe he is giving off provider vibes, and women don't want to let him down by being a slut. Delta just doesn't seem like stone cold player to be honest. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

(04-15-2019 08:57 PM)RDF Wrote:  Delta -- your logistics definitely could be better (agreed with PT that next door is always money) but they aren't zero. Do you have any venues at all that are a ~5-10 min drive from your place?

I agree here. I'm assuming he already would have tried this if there were in fact any venues close to his house though. IF he is okay with FDB he should set up an Airbnb to get the logistics. Then come up with some story about how he moved from that location if a relationship were to ensue post bang.

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(04-15-2019 09:51 PM)Conquistador Wrote:  You disregarded the whole premise of my post. Assuming this is about you: how many satisfying relationships have you had when you banged the girl on the first date? Delta has his own issues which we don't really know about. Being a high SMV male, maybe he is giving off provider vibes, and women don't want to let him down by being a slut. Delta just doesn't seem like stone cold player to be honest. Not there's anything wrong with that.

I agreed that most girls who you bang on the first date probably aren't relationship quality. That doesn't mean you shouldn't TRY for it, regardless of whether you are a "stone cold player" or not.

The way I see it, there are only two realistic scenarios that can play out when you go for the 1st date lay:

1) Girl goes for it and you bang her, you probably eliminate her from potential LTR status (barring occasional exceptions), but you had a fun time and it's a good memory. Worst case the sex sucks and you waste a few hours max.
2) Girl doesn't go for it, either denies the invite to your spot, or comes to your spot and has drinks, makes out, etc but doesn't give you the close. If you're looking for an LTR, awesome, this is your candidate for a 2nd date.

The only reason why you should choose to not go for the bang is if it is a negative for you, or if think that she will see you in a more positive way if you don't. I think the chance of that is very slim assuming that you are dating girls in their 20s in the US that you are meeting online.

I cannot recall a single time that I went for the close (either by giving the invite to my spot, or by escalating upon arriving there) that it cost me a second date. In the cases that she didn't want to bang, it wasn't a big deal. I didn't get angry or upset, I continued to flirt/have fun, and eventually sent her home. These almost always resulted in Day 2s and often an eventual lay.

The provider-vibes explanation would make sense if he was getting regular 2nd dates after getting denied bangs. He isn't, which is the "fundamental problem" as per the thread title. He also has a big sample size which highlights that it isn't just random variability, but something to do with his approach. My feeling is that purposely not going for bangs is one of the issues.

One alternative suggestion: Go for short 1st dates, like an hour long where you have one drink max. Show as high of value as possible, and then cut it off without even going for the kiss. Re-initiate the next day and set up a 2nd date where you plan to close. The only times I've done this was when I genuinely did not want to bother with a lay even if she was interested (due to work + injury), and it did work pretty damn well with a few girls.

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(03-24-2019 02:24 PM)Delta Wrote:  ...
It's not that I can't manage to pull a girl's number at a bar or get some matches online, it's that 20 Hinge matches don't do much good when 8 of them never respond, 10 of them give nothing but terse and disinterested responses, 1 agrees to a date then gets "sick" the day of, and 1 comes out to grab a drink, sits there with her legs crossed away from me, and acts completely apathetic. In fact it's not that they don't to much good, it's that these huge numbers of cold leads actively harm me by wasting a ton of my time. In this example, I'll spend time and energy thinking of engaging, conversation building, game savvy messages to write to all 20 matches, and even spend an entire evening with one, all for 0 return on investment... and this is the MOST efficient way I've found. Night game is far more of a hellish timesuck and day game is essentially impossible where I live.
...
Is this normal?

Yes, this is basically standard online game. You need to sharpen your skills. What I do is that I read between lines, and over the years I have developed good filters in order to weed out girls that would waste my time. Of course, your profile and pictures must be on point.

In any case, online game by 2019 only works well for men that are in the looks, 8, 9s and 10s. You can be a 7 and still get results if your pictures are funny or good, but will get more cold leads. Even if you are an 8 or 9, you will still need to go with the grinding and invest a determinate amount of time and money for bangs. When I began online gaming in 2013, I got one bang per 10 matches. Now it is 1 per 3 matches where we go out. I filter without mercy. Any indicators of bad attitude, smartass, boredom or an emotional barrier of the girl, I immediately delete the match or the number. If you sense it will go wrong, it will most likely will.

Remember that women can and will change their mood for any reason, at any moment, without prior notice. One date they will fuck the not so hot guy, next day they will feel like having a coffee with the german model, but deny him the kiss and then ghost him.

I recommend to use online game once per month and only a week and a half. This is enough for 10 solid phone numbers and at least 5 dates that ideally, will lead to 2 or 3 bangs. Assuming you have optimized your game, logistics, pictures, and that you are physically attractive, of course.

It is a numbers game, and also a random one. You need to filter, escalate and go for the kiss/bang first date, have goods logistics, and also be the appropriate guy at the appropriate moment, and with the girl horny or needing sex-validation.

About your logistics, use the search feature and look for tuthmosis´same day lay guide (/thread-8681.html). Remember: logistics are absolutely key for sex, and also for your personal well being. Key logistics will place you near coffee shops, coworking, museums, gyms, coworkings and overall will benefit you far more than optimizing your sexual life.

Suburbs were designed to separate people and "store" them while they were not working on an office; and are antithetical for meeting new people, let alone having a good sexual life, specially if you are a man. I cannot see any good reason to live in a suburb.

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So two themes keep coming up:

1. Going for the FDB is crucial, even good girls will lose respect if you don't at least try.
2. If that's not feasible, keep it short and don't kiss her.

These are both a mindfuck for me and go against everything I've always believed. #1 because girls always complain about guys being overly aggressive, and also the girls that I date never have a square millimeter of skin showing unless it's like 85 degrees outside... I get that they have to walk a fine line between slutty and non-enticing, but boy do they reliably err on the side of non-enticing, anyone else experience this? And #2 because every couple recounts their first date as something like "we talked for hours, blah blah blah..." never have I heard a couple say that their first date was grabbing a single drink for like an hour and then peacing out with no kiss.

But fuck it, I need to try a different approach because the ROI on what I'm doing now is abysmal. Can someone explain the reasoning behind #2? That is, what's so bad about the date lasting at least a few hours and involving a kiss?

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Goddamn, this forum really hasn't changed. It ended up being an online vs offline - instagram vs day game comparison, again.

I co-sign meeting women out and sorting out logistics and I don't think social media is the panacea to getting laid in 2019, I really don't.

It's an access and verification thing, nothing more, nothing less. If you ever monitored a woman on instagram, you know they pay attention to each person on average 3-5 seconds.

Delta, you need a perspective shift. 'even when a girl is interested' - no, girls are always interested, they just don't always convey it until you invade their personal space, they are comfortable enough with being vulnerable to show it and other variables.

It's what we used to say, forcing IOIs as opposed to waiting for them.

So on paper, you are great but something seems off as you don't seem to own it. I know this because as mentioned elsewhere, I live with a guy who is pretty much this. Top 1% looks, pulls decent money, is fit, blablabla but he is a tabby-cat. He wants a relationship and netflix, the feminine things.

His sexual polarity is fucked. That's an example of something you might want to look in to because to me, you should be converting more regardless of your pipeline.

I went out with my girl and her friends the other day and some older dude rocked up. My girl turns to me and says 'don't worry about him, he seems harmless'. As this was happening, a group of 3 were physically motioning me over (come hither) while my girl was swooning over me. You bet your ass I was sending them 'I will fuck you' signals. Day and night. The one guy is trying his hardest and the other (me) is minding his own business.

So, are you HARMLESS?

Do you have the ability to be sexy and charismatic? Can you communicate this? do you have the ability to turn this from an active to a latent mode of operating around women so that you don't overthink and just BE?

Do you subcommunicate that you will rock their world, squash them in bed and pretty much own their souls?

There is a massive difference between being hot and being sexy. It sounds like you are having an issue with thinking you're hot but if you're not sexy, you will just be nice to look at and not nice to fuck. You get this when you hear girls say shit like "he's too hot to be xyz".

No guy would ever say 'she's too hot for xyz' unless it's porn or prostitution.

Unfortunately, being hot means higher expectations, they want you to live up to their image of slaying.

If they think you're great until they spend time with you, then that's on you. I hate to say it, but it seems that way because you got dates. Girls cannot fuck paper so forget about how good you are past it giving you a confidence boost.

I repeat, I am more concerned about your dates going nowhere as opposed to the pipeline where you meet girls because ONLINE is secondary. Desirable girls are constantly meeting guys at work, university, social circle i.e. convenience.

A very small percentage of desirable women are actually getting laid off instagram etc. They use it as a channel to push brands, images and their whole chick fantasies for other chicks, not for men.

Men come into the SM/IG/FB radar when girls want to run a background check to confirm/deny their vagina tingles. It's your reference at the bottom of the resume but your resume needs to be solid to get the interview to begin with. Figuratively. The other example being when they catch you in a picture with their friends or other girls on their radar.


It's easier to change your own perspective of the situation than the situation itself. You say you're maxing out? Then maintain that level and change how you interact with women.

Girls just want to be taken, doesn't matter if its online, offline, virtually or whatever. They all want their emotions to be rattled and spiked.

It sounds like you ain't creating a sexy enough image in their minds pre-date. You need to have a combination of 'pre-selection' and them knowing other girls want you and that you got other girls. I don't do this with photos, I do this by flirting/bantering which communicates that 'you are the third girl today to try some shit with me, you better bring your A game'.

There's a grey zone between what girls want and what they respond to. You gotta figure out where you come in, regarding this.

We used to throw the term 'outcome independent' around and to be honest, it fits here. Don't overanalyze what you're saying, just throw shit out there to entertain within the scope of being sexy and directing it towards a date. Over time, you figure out what sticks and what doesn't.

Come to think about it, you're in the identical situation as my friend. He seems my relationship with a turbo hot girl being completely on my terms and we are both happy and he wants it.

He doesn't realize the sheer amount of hours, money and mental RAM spent on screening, sorting and fucking my way to where I am, amorously.

You say you don't have the logistics and effort to fuck sluts and ONS. Well mate, you're telling me you want to bench 100kg but are on 50kg and can't be bothered to get to that level.

It's a muscle. Fix it, work on it just do it. Women are everywhere.

As for this high-status, women don't know shit about guys status they only know about how fuckable he is within their circles. That defines his status more than his cars, body, possessions etc. The paradox is that when you have your shit in order, they expect you to be a dick, unavailable, fucking other broads etc.

You're as good to the extent of being her best option right there, right now.

I don't agree with Disco Volante's definition of women feeling attraction. They're COMFORTED by the traits you mentioned, not attracted.

You can refer to my alpha vs beta responsive post to realize, different women at varying stages in their lives respond to alternating hooks.

Ask yourself, why is 50 shades of grey, one of the best selling books of this decade, in the female demographic?

Because it's a fantasy revolving around being dominated by a man who can switch it up from professional to dungeon master.

Are you letting out that you are a dungeon master during your dates?

Can you provide a fantasy in their minds?

My instagram and facebook was and is private for the past 4 years. This spans back to my original social media post from 2015 when guys were shitting on me about it.

It didn't make a difference then and it didn't now because if you actually rely on your in-person skills, it's mystery and validation.

Mystery - they can't snoop i.e. who the fuck is this guy?
Validation - he has a reasonable amount of followers so isn't fucking weird i.e. I am not crazy.

Girls complain about guys being overly aggressive the same way guys here ignore the 20 pleasant girls and focus on the 5 which were bitches. There are parallels.

For girls, it falls under:
- narrative fallacy (media/#metoo making them feel like it's a community they ought to belong to)
- confirmation bias (specifically when they're talking to their female friends)
- availability heuristic (due to time spent online)

When you're talking to them and they start throbbing between their legs and getting flustered, all this shit flies out of the window.


The last posts in this thread are reactive to what the situation demands but I am telling you that the situation is shit because you haven't set it up for you to reap the rewards.

I am not going to spoon feed you so your homework is to figure out what is sexy about you, what women like and how to communicate it.

Then, when you fuck girls and spend time with them, throw some indirect questions to collect some feedback.

I haven't even touched upon getting a social circle here either. You can refer to the other posts about meeting women but I have the feeling you ain't pursuing the correct avenues. Hobbies/convenience/markets/day-to-day etc.

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(04-16-2019 02:39 AM)Noir Wrote:  I am not going to spoon feed you so your homework is to figure out what is sexy about you, what women like and how to communicate it.

Then, when you fuck girls and spend time with them, throw some indirect questions to collect some feedback.

I haven't even touched upon getting a social circle here either. You can refer to the other posts about meeting women but I have the feeling you ain't pursuing the correct avenues. Hobbies/convenience/markets/day-to-day etc.

Good post, I agree with a lot of what you say. Human nature is not going away anytime soon. But general advice normally doesn't help. We all want to be sexy - but what does this mean? We all want to make the gina tingle - how to do that consistently?

We know the normal workflow of a seduction - pre-minute attraction, post-minute attraction, rapport, teasing, kino. We're good at making this a step-by-step program. But where do you put flirting and bantering? How does that relate to the general progression? What about being "sexy"?

So I think this is a good time for us to pull some observations together and expand on the topics with some concrete examples.

* How to be sexier
* How to flirt/banter better
* How to play on the edge of social norms
* Where does humor come in
* What behavior hooks a woman over time
* What behavior hooks a women immediately (for a ONS)

I've seen how a girl behaves when she likes a guy. Her eyes light up when he enters the room. She's tracing his every move. She feels butterflies. She's anxious. She's afraid not to mess it up. She's seduced.

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(04-14-2019 09:38 PM)scorpion Wrote:  Is there any room for the lone wolf player in the year 2019? Perhaps there's still a niche there. But the lone wolf these days is like an endangered animal whose habitat is rapidly shrinking, being encroached on more and more each passing day by the unceasing expansion of the cities. Soon there will be no territory left for him at all. The lone wolf style/cold approach has always been something of a numbers game, but the odds have never been worse in our lifetimes. The ROI has never been lower. The entire premise of this style of game was built on the idea that getting lucky didn't actually require luck. You could turn the odds significantly in your favor through skill and self-improvement. But we're rapidly approaching the point where the returns on developing game skill and self-improvement have diminished so greatly that getting lucky is once again mostly a product of luck: you're simply hoping to come across that rare, attractive girl who isn't a phone/social media zombie and who is open to connecting with a man the old fashioned way.

That type of girls, by your very definition (which is correct), can never be found on social media or online dating apps. I met a few of those girls, married one (my wife is 26 now, met her 4 years ago, so very much in the age group for social media addictions). None of them is really on social media, they have rather inactive FB accounts, with pictures of mostly things that don't have their faces in them. None has Instagram accounts, my wife only got one after she met me for her home business selling crafts.

If you guys keep hunting for those girls on social media and online dating, you will never find them. We have another thread here saying how men outnumber women 9 to 1 on Tinder, so by that very stats, the vast majority of women aren't even doing online dating.

Also, keep in mind that in this day and age, such a woman would only be open to LTR and marriage. They require patience, not rush. If you hunt with casuals in mind, you will miss your shots.

Lone wolves need to hunt differently to other wolves. He goes to places other wolves do not, and hunts preys that are practically invisible to other predators.

For example, my long time wingman (and best man at my wedding) has been doing all those things: social media, online dating apps, going out to popular night spots etc. and got fuck all. I know all he wants is a nice girlfriend, so I tried to take him out to places young people never thought of going. One such place is full of oldies, but there is usually a sweet young girl or two there visiting her grandparents, or just a bunch of young girls that people affectionately call "old souls" who love old vintage things: music, movies, fashion and talking to old people about them. There is often zero competition because the men there are elderly or very young inexperienced guys. Anyway, I took my wingman there and pointed out to him, and he had the worst approach anxiety ever. The guy was too used to the comfort of dating apps, social media and approaching party chicks, he just could not approach and talk to a sweet young girl the normal way - you know the way that vintage gentlemen like in the old movies would've approached a young lady and charmed her.

Through my wife (because after meeting me, she loves to matchmake people i.e helping young girls find a man), I learned that there are quite a few of those girls who are afraid of going out or getting online to meet a man. They are just as confused as to where to go to meet them. But those same girls still get out of the house to do their things, just not necessarily in the places you guys would normally hunt. When you get off the virtual world, you will be able to spot them a lot more easily.

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This is partially a response to Delta as well.

I agree 100% with Noir, Delta might be a good conversationalist but he's not talking to the pussy, he's talking to her cerebral cortex. Too much comfort game and nowhere near enough gina tingles.

(04-16-2019 02:07 PM)moonlight_sonata Wrote:  

(04-16-2019 02:39 AM)Noir Wrote:  I am not going to spoon feed you so your homework is to figure out what is sexy about you, what women like and how to communicate it.

Good post, I agree with a lot of what you say. Human nature is not going away anytime soon. But general advice normally doesn't help. We all want to be sexy - but what does this mean? We all want to make the gina tingle - how to do that consistently?

When I just started fumbling my way around in the dating world many years ago, I used to wonder what the hell things like being sexy, bedroom eyes etc. were and how to get them. Well this is how I got them in my life:

- Getting as fit and athletic as I could be. Particularly important are hip strength through squats, deadlifts and last but not least, KB work especially heavy KB swings.
- Learning many many styles of dancing so I know how to move my body, physically lead a woman in an intimate setting and also meet a lot of them.
- Banging some older easier women, and making them unable to walk afterwards
- One of them told me that eventually when I got myself into a relationship, my GF would have to stay at home as she couldn't possibly go to work or uni with jelly legs after such intense sex.
- That boosted my sexual confidence like nothing else, and later when I was on dates with girls, half of the time I would be distracted thinking how I would turn them into a puddle of jelly post-bang, among other things I would do to them, and my grins or eyes would communicate this to them while talking about random topics that I never remembered or cared to prepare in advance. The women I dated would say that I both made them feel safe and comfortable, yet they always felt nervous and even a little bit of fear in a good way (the latter emphasised by them), because they subconsciously could feel that they're gonna get fucked well if they hang out with me just a little bit longer that night.
- No Fap definitely helped tremendously.

And by the way, the older woman I banged was right especially about my wife. In a way, I turned her into a homemaker via sex. At first she had to quit her job where there were a couple of men around, because she had to be on her feet for the job, and she was embarrassed walking around like that every day. Then she got a desk job in an all women workplace, and eventually left that too because she always looked like she's deliriously happy from getting freshly banged the night before, while many women there looked like they had not been touched by a real man since last century. The haterade was just too much for her to deal with.

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(04-16-2019 05:37 PM)StrikeBack Wrote:  - That boosted my sexual confidence like nothing else, and later when I was on dates with girls, half of the time I would be distracted thinking how I would turn them into a puddle of jelly post-bang, among other things I would do to them, and my grins or eyes would communicate this to them while talking about random topics that I never remembered or cared to prepare in advance. The women I dated would say that I both made them feel safe and comfortable, yet they always felt nervous and even a little bit of fear in a good way (the latter emphasised by them), because they subconsciously could feel that they're gonna get fucked well if they hang out with me just a little bit longer that night.

Hm, this is a really interesting experiment to try. When you're on a date half of the time try to imagine how you're going to bang the hell out of her with some deep eye contact and half of the time try to have some normal conversation. May be the thoughts about sex would immediately fine-tune your whole body language from eye-contact to masculine posture. You'll have to feel very comfortable to look at her as a piece of meat. It's funny that we have to think so much about something so primal and ingrained in our DNA.

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To those who suggest that I'm failing to subtly communicate my sexuality, spike the girl's emotions, yada yada, I'm pretty positive you've hit the nail on the head. It rings true. Just by process of elimination I feel like I'm doing everything else well, but my conversations usually do feel like totally asexual conversations to nowhere. I'm naturally really bad at this to the point where I don't feel like I can succeed at it without some specific tips.

Last night I had a date and, having read the replies here, I had it in my mind to try and look at her in an "I'm gonna fuck you" type way and work in some sly sexual innuendos. I have no clue whether my "look" is remotely good (my guess is no), and the whole time I couldn't think of a single quip to steer the conversation in a playful/sexual direction. I find the latter especially challenging, as a poorly executed attempt to be sexual can easily make you look like a thirsty, socially uncalibrated sperg and is far worse than not doing it at all. I really don't know how to, in the heat of conversation and only having a couple seconds to think about each response, come up with a sexual remark that's subtle enough to avoid that suicidal pitfall. I also find it really difficult to kino meaningfully in a bar. I can comfortably do it in more secluded locations (usually a picnic table or park bench are my go to's), but it just doesn't feel right to try and kino in a crowded bar.

What I did do because of the replies here is not let the date drag on (called it when we both finished our drink) and not go for the cliche end of date kiss by her car; I purposely left things ambiguous for her. The result? I texted the girl earlier tonight and she ignored it. Of course that's only one data point, but looking back, I never succeed with that type of formula. Weeknight dates where the girl and I just chill in a bar have literally never gotten me an iota of interest. The formula that does work much of the time is meeting up on a weekend afternoon, hopefully a nice day, eventually bouncing from the bar or wherever we first meet up, and escalating very aggressively in an outdoor setting (as I said, usually a bench or picnic table), all over the course of at least a couple of hours. No other type of date ever really works for me, which makes me really intrigued about why guys recommend essentially the opposite. I mean I'd love that to be feasible, because I put a TON of pressure on myself to try and create the perfect date and hold an engaging conversation for hours on end, and worry a lot about bad weather foiling the whole formula, so it would take a ton of burden off my shoulders to know that I can have a girl wanting to come over and fuck me on day 2 after an hour long chat in a bar, but my experience just contradicts the hell out of it.

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(04-17-2019 11:16 PM)Delta Wrote:  I also find it really difficult to kino meaningfully in a bar. I can comfortably do it in more secluded locations (usually a picnic table or park bench are my go to's), but it just doesn't feel right to try and kino in a crowded bar.

I say work on this part the most because it is easily fixable. Here are some tips:

Try hitting two or three venues. One is not enough to get physical, unless she's giving you strong signals. Use the first venue for building rapport, be vague with your answers, tease her on hers, be playful etc. End it around the 1 hour mark. Then move to the second venue which should be walking distance and preferably have people dancing. Do an arm-in-arm move like a gentlemen as you're walking there - girls like this and will get you more intimate immediately. If the second venue is right and you can dance then start to escalate the touching. Hold eye contact when you're talking to her, get closer and touch her. Playfully hug her. You can't avoid this step. I've gotten girls home that I haven't escalated on and it went no where. You have to get them horny. More with attitude and action than with words.

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@ Delta

Seems your logistics are bad, yes the market is probably the worst it has ever been, and the culture of the current year doesn't do men and women any favors. But, all that aside...

You are WAY TO MUCH INSIDE YOUR OWN HEAD.

You seem to want a LTR with a suitable woman and if fucking sluts ain't your thing, good on you. You still NEED to FUCK these girls at some point before you can even entertain a LTR with one of them. Yes, even the good ones want to be dicked down, and dicked down good.

You also seem to CARE wayyy too much, and this will always KILL your chances with ANY woman.

You don't seem to be having FUN. Stop worrying about what to say, the right time to do something, and do WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU FEEL LIKE DOING.

Fact: Women like men who take whatever they want and what they feel entitled to. But you have to do it RIGHTEOUSLY and BELIEVE in yourself and what you are doing. So confident that it borders on arrogance. Be the man you want to BE, not the man who you THINK she wants you to be.

You are the prize. Not them. Women are born. Men are MADE. Convey that without words. You are doing them a favor and enhancing their life when you choose to spend time with them. Not the other way around.

Think about this: if it wasn't for them having a pussy, we'd chuck rocks at most of them.

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To all your points, let me give you an actual encounter of mine.
First meeting: Sober in bar. Short chat, number exchange. (boring)
First date: No kiss, ass-out hug. (the death-knell)
Logistics: 20 minute drive from town. Unimpressive apartment. (terrible)
Girl: Sweet mid-20s, conservative in-tact big family. (relationship material)
Second date: Concert I wanted to see. Had no idea what music type she liked. (gamble)
$$: I paid for drinks. I bought tickets. (provider)
Sobriety: Reasonably high. She drank enough for a buzz, but paced very well. (not an alcoholic, which I watch out for)
Escalation: Basically none on my part. (me just being lazy)

Did I get lucky? Of course. My friends and I have sat down with, danced with, spent the evening and drank with plenty of hot chicks I approached. I have fun, and I want hot chicks to have fun when they go out, even if they have no desire to fuck a guy (most of the time, most girls aren't going to fuck you same night).

But in this case, she wanted to ride a dick, and I was lucky enough to be attached to the dick she wanted to ride. I'm just there to have fun.

(Disclaimer: This is not to downplay the importance of kino, escalation, logistics, booze, etc. It's just to say, I've seen short guys slay, I've seen tall guys whiff, I've seen rich guys beg and hot chicks in trailer parks.)

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Delta, I would suggest working on your Charisma game. If you make 120k/year, then investing in something like Charisma University is well worth it. It targets your "soft" or "non-sexual" game skills that you can use in any circumstance.

https://www.charismaoncommand.com/c-university/

I get a sense that you are not sure *who* you are, and are defining yourself by what you have and what you own. This means you're not going to meet the quality of women that you want.

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It seems like a lot of your self-esteem is tied up with whether women like you.

0% of your self-esteem should come from women.

Ironically if you consider women's opinion of you valueless, you will become more attractive to them.

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(04-26-2019 06:57 PM)Oak Wrote:  It seems like a lot of your self-esteem is tied up with whether women like you.

0% of your self-esteem should come from women.

Ironically if you consider women's opinion of you valueless, you will become more attractive to them.

Even though this makes sense and is an extension of "don't put women on pedestal" it is pretty difficult to do when you like the girl and super easy to do when you don't care about the girl. But that distinction is probably in the eye of the beholder. Most girls I go out with I don't care about much because they are below my dating threshold. But once I find a girl that is interesting and intriguing I can't help but follow my stupid body hormones that addict me to her and tell me to be a complete beta protector, provider, to care for her and her feelings etc. So we need to create some weird shields in our mind to protect ourselves from those chemical processes. But this hormonal balance is not controlled by the logical side of our brain. There was a great saying in one of the evolutionary biology books I read some time ago: "Natural selection has done the thinking for you." You don't have to think about being attracted and acting silly. It is automatic behavior. So what we do with game is trying to get a hold of ourselves and fix this automatic behavior. But it's tough.

I was out the other night with a girl that is cute but nothing extraordinary. For some random reason I am extremely attracted to her. And I see myself having butterflies around her. I am extra careful to not say something stupid. I am worried to not do something bad. Normally I don't care at all (within reason). But for this one it is a puzzle how my body reacts this way. So I try to fake it of course but that takes extra energy. The way I see others have dealt with this is to desensitize the body's hormones by experiencing hundreds of such situations. Approaching strangers is one way of achieving this. Or you can be an "alpha" with a distorted sense of shyness, confidence, social conditioning etc. The fact is most of us are not that and it's hard to fight ingrained human nature as it is hard to fight an irrational fear of spiders.

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Have you guys done any competitive sport or public performance of some kind? You'll get used to handling your nerves and butterflies. You'll find that you can then like the girl, enjoy these wonderful nerves as you set to conquer her and not put her on a pedestal (might want to think about why you default to doing so when you like a girl - hint: it's not ingrained in human nature). It's about controlling your emotions and feelings, not desensitising yourself to them so you don't feel anything.

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(04-27-2019 04:58 AM)StrikeBack Wrote:  Have you guys done any competitive sport or public performance of some kind? You'll get used to handling your nerves and butterflies. You'll find that you can then like the girl, enjoy these wonderful nerves as you set to conquer her and not put her on a pedestal (might want to think about why you default to doing so when you like a girl - hint: it's not ingrained in human nature). It's about controlling your emotions and feelings, not desensitising yourself to them so you don't feel anything.

Do you think one can control feelings? Or emotions? In my experience those just happen and then you can only control your reaction and external expression of them. That's why it's called gut feeling - it's there and you need to make sense of it. Your logical interpretation of the gut feeling can definitely be influenced and changed but not the gut feeling itself. It just happens.

I guess you can teach yourself what gut feelings you exhibit in different situations. Kind of a self discovery journey. And how you can work around them to achieve your goals which comes only through practice. Butterflies is not something I experience often so the more I put myself in a "butterflies" situation the more I'll learn how to react when I have them.

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You ever get the feeling that for most women, it's undesirable and scary to fuck outside of the context of forging a relationship with a guy in her social circle? Even with Chad?
That the trend of hookups and sex with strangers was the inorganic result of elite social programming which is now running out of steam?

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Just remember men see the best in women, women see the most in men

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OP, you seem to be in a pretty good spot, you should move to a bigger city where you can play the numbers game.

PUAs have done thousands if not tens of thousands approaches just to get few hundreds lays.
RSD, Tom Torero, Paul Janka, all of these coaches.

That's the reality. Your 20 approaches doesn't mean much.
I had a wing that was good-looking & ripped, solid job and was constantly going out. Daygame & Nightgame.
His approach to lay ratio was 1~3%. Yes, his standard was pretty high and was going for 8+ only, but your 20 approaches isn't a huge sample size tbh. The ones who actually get laid, it's like 1 out of 100 or 1 out of 50.

You are right, let's say you approach 100, half of them will be either married/have bf/seeing someone.
You have 50 left. 25 of them won't give give you the number, you get blown out.
Out of 25 numbers, you possibly get 5 girls out because most of the girls don't need the validation. They can get online.
Some of them, you probably don't even like them as you get to know them, that's how the girl feels too.

From initial approaching -> # close -> texting -> Date 1 & Date 2, things fizzle out.

Make out with some of the 5 girls that comes out, sleep with 1~2. That's the normal statistics that I have observed.

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(04-27-2019 05:26 PM)moonlight_sonata Wrote:  

(04-27-2019 04:58 AM)StrikeBack Wrote:  Have you guys done any competitive sport or public performance of some kind? You'll get used to handling your nerves and butterflies. You'll find that you can then like the girl, enjoy these wonderful nerves as you set to conquer her and not put her on a pedestal (might want to think about why you default to doing so when you like a girl - hint: it's not ingrained in human nature). It's about controlling your emotions and feelings, not desensitising yourself to them so you don't feel anything.

Do you think one can control feelings? Or emotions? In my experience those just happen and then you can only control your reaction and external expression of them. That's why it's called gut feeling - it's there and you need to make sense of it. Your logical interpretation of the gut feeling can definitely be influenced and changed but not the gut feeling itself. It just happens.

"Feelings/emotions" are involuntary mental responses to external stimuli.

Yes. You can learn to control your feelings (responses) with the right skill set.

Most people never do

(04-27-2019 05:26 PM)moonlight_sonata Wrote:  I guess you can teach yourself what gut feelings you exhibit in different situations. Kind of a self discovery journey. And how you can work around them to achieve your goals which comes only through practice. Butterflies is not something I experience often so the more I put myself in a "butterflies" situation the more I'll learn how to react when I have them.

Youre on the right track with this line

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No, but seriously, k-close on first date, lay on the 2nd date and the girls will GHOST.

Don't take "rejections" seriously, these girls are ADD/ADHD.

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