Post: #1

Hungary's ever increasing support for families by the government is creating an environment where marriages and families are flourishing and abortion numbers are dropping, one of the country’s ministers advised a recent international conference on life and family.

The support has caused abortion numbers to plunge by more than a third of what they were in 2010 (40,449 to 28,500). It has also caused a plunge in the number of divorces (23,873 in 2010 to 18,600 in 2017) and a surge in the number of marriages (35,520 in 2010 to 50,600 in 2017).


Link to article:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/hungar...y-policies

Post: #2

Depends if you're pro choice or not.

In the UK we're 90% pro womens choice - I think Ireland are around 80% based on their referendum.

Not sure what americans think because theres a new conservatism building so it may be more 50/50

Post: #3

To be paid for by the kids that are being born.

Post: #4

Buried in that article is the increase of the Total Fertility Rate from 1.23 to 1.50 from 2010 to 2017. It's a start but replacement fertility has not been reached yet.

Post: #5

From the article:

Helping families includes maternity support, paid childcare leave, family tax benefits and housing allowance, tax allowances that encourage young couples to marry, encourage young couples to marry, vacation benefits, no-charge holiday camps for children, subsidized textbooks, and decreased utility costs. Families have seen significant financial gains, including a 63.8% increase since 2010 in the net average earnings of the Hungarian families due to the family tax reduction alone."

Steve Sailer has coined the phrase "affordable family formation" to describe this effect. Responsible Parents aren't having children because it's too damn expensive to do so.

Basically, the reason the west is in a demographic death spiral are all of the taxes, regulations and hidden taxes (such as diversity).

If you have to buy a SUV to have third child, because the child car seats that are mandated by the government until children are 11 will not fit three to a car, then you aren't having that kid.

If you have to pay 20-30k per kid to get the kids out of a driverse public school hellhole, then you are thinking twice about having that kid.

Make family formation affordable and the west gets out of its demographic death spiral. It will not only be the irresponsible having children.

In America, individual policies have to be checked to see that they do lower family formation costs for responsible parents. For example, Government paid healthcare seems like it would subsidize third world immigrants while being a net increase in costs for the ordinary taxpayer.

Post: #6

(02-20-2019 11:55 AM)Rotten Wrote:  Basically, the reason the west is in a demographic death spiral are all of the taxes, regulations and hidden taxes (such as diversity).

Wait wut?? I thought diversity was our strength...our leaders told us so!

Post: #7

(02-20-2019 11:48 AM)RawGod Wrote:  Buried in that article is the increase of the Total Fertility Rate from 1.23 to 1.50 from 2010 to 2017. It's a start but replacement fertility has not been reached yet.

And 1.5 is still well below what the US has

Post: #8

Getting excited about the situation in based Hungary is premature and ignores the true dynamic of the EU and its new members on the frontier. Look at the larger Continental picture, before we turn to discussing Hungary:

UK has a massive number of third worlders who outbreed the brits. EE immigrants there are taking all the jobs, driving down wages, and will continue to do regardless of Brexit because they're already going to be grandfathered in. While being free from the EU is a good thing you can be sure that the one thing that won't change is the ongoing demographic decline.

France has a massive number of Muslims, who only continue to grow in number. In particular, immigrants, as the number increases, the problems and discord increase. Marseilles is a no-go zone, I can confirm having spent time there. Don't visit, fucking dangerous. The Parisian suburbs are also very dangerous and I was lucky I wasn't beat up the last time I was in Paris. The French are watching their country burn with Macron at the helm, he's the new figure for Contiental immigration, and if the investment banker in him has any say, they will accelerate the movement of third-worlders to his country, as well as other countries. Whatever inertia the yellowvest movement has, is gone. Populism has failed again-co-opted by the elites for the 5 millionth time.

Peaceful little Belgium is a breeding ground for terrorism, the intellegence services and police are overwhelmed, the evidence on that is publicly available. The last conversation I had with a liberal belgian, he insisted there were no no-go-zones. That's completely false. Parts of Brussels looks like the middle east. Good thing in the West there's generous welfare.

Sweden is dealing with a spate of grenade attacks (mainly from third-worlders and immigrants from the Balkans), police can't enter areas because they or ambulances will be attacked. The media continues to supress all disagreement and counter-narratives because Marxism and white guilt, which has tremendous power in a high-trust humanitarian oriented collectivist society like Sweden. That will be their downfall. Swedes and their fellow nordic brethen continue having massive amounts of casual sex and not settling down while the immigrants outbreed them and enjoy subsidized housing. Meanwhile Swedes can't get an apartment.

Germany, ground zero for the whole phenomenon is a mess. Kids with braided hair are suggested to have Nazi parents per material given to teachers and parents. Germans continue to work themselves to death, not having kids and indulging in massive amounts of recreational drugs. The German government keeps pushing white guilt on the population despite world war II ending 70 plus years ago. The Turkish population is never going back to Turkey (so there is a parallel state in Germany) and neither are any of the refugees, many who by law should be deported but are not because their presumed countries will not take them. There has been a massive number of attacks on refugee centers so some portion of the population is angry, yet Merkel is still in power. The German economic powerhouse exploits cheap labor, and sells it to their population as redemption from World War II—helping poor people.

Poland, while based, will be eventually forced to cede to the EU’s demands to let migrants in. Yes they have a rightist government, but the economy is simply the biggest issue for the Poles. They’ll roll over to the EU that way the populist government has something to run on for the next elections. For all the guys gaming there, the situation is very temporary and soon you’ll see plenty of migrants there. Put simply, if the Poles don’t comply with EU’s demands they’ll get kicked out. That’s not a reality Poles want to live with. The country in many ways is surviving off of remittances being sent from the UK and other Western Countries. They can’t lose that lifeline for their citizens who face a somewhat undesirable domestic job situation.

In Austria women are wearing hijabs to avoid street harassment. Even though the government is populist again, the EU calls the shots. A ton of rapes are happening there, and as one of the centers of globalism (Vienna in particular) nothing will change.

Italy is in shambles. Ever seen how many 30 year old Italians live with their mothers? That’s counterproductive to having kids. Italians also are leaving their hometowns in massive numbers so all these communities are dying. EU did nothing to stop corruption and business as usual there. On top of that, they were the landing point for the migrants, the Italians are largely mad about that, but then again they don’t have to worry much because the migrants move onto the nicer Western core countries of the EU.

Ukraine continues to be a massive shithole much like Russia. Many Ukrainians go to Poland. There is no EU anytime soon, as corruption continues to paralyze the place not to mention the proxy war in the East that has caused living standards to noticeably decrease.

Greece was always a lost cause and in many ways the situation is similar to Italy. While the immigration situation to the west has stabilized for greeks, living standards have stagnated and no one is having a family. No one can afford to.

The Balkans, next frontier of European expansion are a mess: likely they will be the cross the EU dies on given the volatility of the region, if not Russia/ Ukraine. Massive amounts of corruption are being ignored to accelerate the expansion project which demands cheap, transient labor. If you think the economy is weak in a place like Poland, and others, boy is it bad in the Balkans. Autocratic tendencies of many Balkan leaders are being ignored, which really shows you how anti-democratic the EU is. It's a geopolitical game to expand european influence while neutering Russia.

Russia, although only partly Europe is a key example of misplaced hopes among European natalists who somehow think Putin is reversing the decline. First of all, Russia is massively multi-ethnic, much like the US, so in any meaningful sense their fate is already sealed. Yes, more people are going to church but state religion is being used as a cultural zeitgeist to placate the population while their country suffers from massive graft, economic mismanagement and demographic decline. You could say in simplier terms the church is a low-risk outlet for civic oriented russian nationalism, which is exactly what putin wants. HIV/ AIDs huge problem there because of drug use. Alcoholism still a massive problem but only decreased because the living standards finally improved after the breakup of the Soviet Union, that was bound to happen period because communism is always more shitty than capitalism. Abortions have dropped, but holy shit do the Russians like to abort. The economy is shit and thus people will have very few kids. Another element of the dynamic ignored is that there is massive immigration from FSU states/ Russian states like Uzbekistan, Georgia, Caucuses, etc. No one knows how many but it’s a lot. Need you remember the places have much higher birthrates than the ethnic Russian-slavic population. The improvements have been marginal, but one thing for sure: Russia is a place in decline, and has been for quite some time now. Russia's wealth class makes every effort possible to get out of the country physically as well as getting their money out. The kids they have are raised in the West. Simply put, the population that has the most of a stake in Russia has already cashed their chips in and walked away. That tells you all you need to know about the place's future.

And Hungary: yes Orban is nationalist. He expelled the Soros hydra. Good for him. But life there and in other Eastern European places is still shit. The might of Hungary is nothing compared to the France/ Germany dominated EU. They will meet the EU’s demands or be expelled like Poland. The fact that they have minimal migrants is just a temporary thing. How populist is your populism if the EU gets a veto on it? That’s my question.

No one in Eastern Europe is having kids, and the incentives are going to do little. Divorces are high. The incentives plus promotion of natalism has been tried in Russia, among others, and they’ve only had a small effect.

The EU is fundamentally anti-democratic, anti-european (because it is pro-immigrant to feed the belly of the beast), and globalist in nature. The Hungarians may have some small victories, but the war is what counts. Orban will follow their orders or else he’s out of office. Hungary is fundamentally diluted populism as are many of the other national governments. The choice they will never make is the choice to leave the EU… And that tells you all you need to know. At the end of the day, Brussels wins yet again.

Post: #9

(02-20-2019 04:49 AM)Glaucon Wrote:  Hungary's ever increasing support for families by the government is creating an environment where marriages and families are flourishing and abortion numbers are dropping, one of the country’s ministers advised a recent international conference on life and family.

The support has caused abortion numbers to plunge by more than a third of what they were in 2010 (40,449 to 28,500). It has also caused a plunge in the number of divorces (23,873 in 2010 to 18,600 in 2017) and a surge in the number of marriages (35,520 in 2010 to 50,600 in 2017).


Link to article:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/hungar...y-policies

All we have to do is stop encouraging abortion, start encouraging family, and guess what? IT WORKS!

Regardless of doubt or worry, I think this is absolutely fantastic. I am excited and happy to read this.

This is great news for a single reason: it proves that it's POSSIBLE to reduce abortion and push women back to sanity. Not only possible, by kind of easy.

Leftists everywhere hate this. Because it crushes their whole worldview.

Post: #10

(02-20-2019 01:31 PM)MrLemon Wrote:  

(02-20-2019 04:49 AM)Glaucon Wrote:  Hungary's ever increasing support for families by the government is creating an environment where marriages and families are flourishing and abortion numbers are dropping, one of the country’s ministers advised a recent international conference on life and family.

The support has caused abortion numbers to plunge by more than a third of what they were in 2010 (40,449 to 28,500). It has also caused a plunge in the number of divorces (23,873 in 2010 to 18,600 in 2017) and a surge in the number of marriages (35,520 in 2010 to 50,600 in 2017).


Link to article:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/hungar...y-policies

All we have to do is stop encouraging abortion, start encouraging family, and guess what? IT WORKS!

Regardless of doubt or worry, I think this is absolutely fantastic. I am excited and happy to read this.

This is great news for a single reason: it proves that it's POSSIBLE to reduce abortion and push women back to sanity. Not only possible, by kind of easy.

Leftists everywhere hate this. Because it crushes their whole worldview.

While decreasing abortion is admirable, and in many ways may help the native population, there are other elements at play. Abortion has also decreased in the US, but because of factors like IUDs, condoms, more teens abstaining from sex, the incel moment, and decline in teen pregnancy, overall the decrease in abortion doesn’t do much.

Ideally we would be encouraging earlier marriage but that itself is a problem because to get married you have to be independent or have some parental support to help you get started. First of all, the greedy boomers aren’t gonna give anyone their stacks of cash to help get started. Second, job situation is noticeably worse than it was in the US 50 years ago. That’s why people were able to get married earlier back then. Plus, there were no women in the workforce.

To encourage family you have to have a patriarchal culture and church. Social media has diminished both as well as mass media. Feminism is an irreversible process barring some sort of war or social upheaval. That’s where many people get the Neo-reactionary view from. In Europe, the welfare state is larger, so it has displaced the traditional elements of culture and church, thus making both obsolete as far as their roles. While eastern countries such as hungary may be nominally more traditional, they also have disproportionate abortion problems as well as more dire economic situations, which means children are a no-go.

What I am getting at is not only do you have to have a social reorganization and a religious reorganization, but also you have to have a political reorganization because of the damage the welfare state does to relationships and family. Suddenly, the task at hand becomes a lot more daunting. Not only do you have to reorganize culture to be more patriarchal, and bring the church back, you have to dismantle the welfare state. It's a tall order. Without the welfare state in place, gender relations will again become more natural. Men will support women because the state can't do it. Given how much people like their gibbs, I think that's going to be a challenge. By definition it's reactionary, although I myself am in complete favor of doing it.

Post: #11

(02-20-2019 12:46 PM)Heuristics Wrote:  Getting excited about the situation in based Hungary is premature and ignores the true dynamic of the EU and its new members on the frontier. Look at the larger Continental picture, before we turn to discussing Hungary:

UK has a massive number of third worlders who outbreed the brits. EE immigrants there are taking all the jobs, driving down wages, and will continue to do regardless of Brexit because they're already going to be grandfathered in. While being free from the EU is a good thing you can be sure that the one thing that won't change is the ongoing demographic decline.

France has a massive number of Muslims, who only continue to grow in number. In particular, immigrants, as the number increases, the problems and discord increase. Marseilles is a no-go zone, I can confirm having spent time there. Don't visit, fucking dangerous. The Parisian suburbs are also very dangerous and I was lucky I wasn't beat up the last time I was in Paris. The French are watching their country burn with Macron at the helm, he's the new figure for Contiental immigration, and if the investment banker in him has any say, they will accelerate the movement of third-worlders to his country, as well as other countries. Whatever inertia the yellowvest movement has, is gone. Populism has failed again-co-opted by the elites for the 5 millionth time.

Peaceful little Belgium is a breeding ground for terrorism, the intellegence services and police are overwhelmed, the evidence on that is publicly available. The last conversation I had with a liberal belgian, he insisted there were no no-go-zones. That's completely false. Parts of Brussels looks like the middle east. Good thing in the West there's generous welfare.

Sweden is dealing with a spate of grenade attacks (mainly from third-worlders and immigrants from the Balkans), police can't enter areas because they or ambulances will be attacked. The media continues to supress all disagreement and counter-narratives because Marxism and white guilt, which has tremendous power in a high-trust humanitarian oriented collectivist society like Sweden. That will be their downfall. Swedes and their fellow nordic brethen continue having massive amounts of casual sex and not settling down while the immigrants outbreed them and enjoy subsidized housing. Meanwhile Swedes can't get an apartment.

Germany, ground zero for the whole phenomenon is a mess. Kids with braided hair are suggested to have Nazi parents per material given to teachers and parents. Germans continue to work themselves to death, not having kids and indulging in massive amounts of recreational drugs. The German government keeps pushing white guilt on the population despite world war II ending 70 plus years ago. The Turkish population is never going back to Turkey (so there is a parallel state in Germany) and neither are any of the refugees, many who by law should be deported but are not because their presumed countries will not take them. There has been a massive number of attacks on refugee centers so some portion of the population is angry, yet Merkel is still in power. The German economic powerhouse exploits cheap labor, and sells it to their population as redemption from World War II—helping poor people.

Poland, while based, will be eventually forced to cede to the EU’s demands to let migrants in. Yes they have a rightist government, but the economy is simply the biggest issue for the Poles. They’ll roll over to the EU that way the populist government has something to run on for the next elections. For all the guys gaming there, the situation is very temporary and soon you’ll see plenty of migrants there. Put simply, if the Poles don’t comply with EU’s demands they’ll get kicked out. That’s not a reality Poles want to live with. The country in many ways is surviving off of remittances being sent from the UK and other Western Countries. They can’t lose that lifeline for their citizens who face a somewhat undesirable domestic job situation.

In Austria women are wearing hijabs to avoid street harassment. Even though the government is populist again, the EU calls the shots. A ton of rapes are happening there, and as one of the centers of globalism (Vienna in particular) nothing will change.

Italy is in shambles. Ever seen how many 30 year old Italians live with their mothers? That’s counterproductive to having kids. Italians also are leaving their hometowns in massive numbers so all these communities are dying. EU did nothing to stop corruption and business as usual there. On top of that, they were the landing point for the migrants, the Italians are largely mad about that, but then again they don’t have to worry much because the migrants move onto the nicer Western core countries of the EU.

Ukraine continues to be a massive shithole much like Russia. Many Ukrainians go to Poland. There is no EU anytime soon, as corruption continues to paralyze the place not to mention the proxy war in the East that has caused living standards to noticeably decrease.

Greece was always a lost cause and in many ways the situation is similar to Italy. While the immigration situation to the west has stabilized for greeks, living standards have stagnated and no one is having a family. No one can afford to.

The Balkans, next frontier of European expansion are a mess: likely they will be the cross the EU dies on given the volatility of the region, if not Russia/ Ukraine. Massive amounts of corruption are being ignored to accelerate the expansion project which demands cheap, transient labor. If you think the economy is weak in a place like Poland, and others, boy is it bad in the Balkans. Autocratic tendencies of many Balkan leaders are being ignored, which really shows you how anti-democratic the EU is. It's a geopolitical game to expand european influence while neutering Russia.

Russia, although only partly Europe is a key example of misplaced hopes among European natalists who somehow think Putin is reversing the decline. First of all, Russia is massively multi-ethnic, much like the US, so in any meaningful sense their fate is already sealed. Yes, more people are going to church but state religion is being used as a cultural zeitgeist to placate the population while their country suffers from massive graft, economic mismanagement and demographic decline. You could say in simplier terms the church is a low-risk outlet for civic oriented russian nationalism, which is exactly what putin wants. HIV/ AIDs huge problem there because of drug use. Alcoholism still a massive problem but only decreased because the living standards finally improved after the breakup of the Soviet Union, that was bound to happen period because communism is always more shitty than capitalism. Abortions have dropped, but holy shit do the Russians like to abort. The economy is shit and thus people will have very few kids. Another element of the dynamic ignored is that there is massive immigration from FSU states/ Russian states like Uzbekistan, Georgia, Caucuses, etc. No one knows how many but it’s a lot. Need you remember the places have much higher birthrates than the ethnic Russian-slavic population. The improvements have been marginal, but one thing for sure: Russia is a place in decline, and has been for quite some time now. Russia's wealth class makes every effort possible to get out of the country physically as well as getting their money out. The kids they have are raised in the West. Simply put, the population that has the most of a stake in Russia has already cashed their chips in and walked away. That tells you all you need to know about the place's future.

And Hungary: yes Orban is nationalist. He expelled the Soros hydra. Good for him. But life there and in other Eastern European places is still shit. The might of Hungary is nothing compared to the France/ Germany dominated EU. They will meet the EU’s demands or be expelled like Poland. The fact that they have minimal migrants is just a temporary thing. How populist is your populism if the EU gets a veto on it? That’s my question.

No one in Eastern Europe is having kids, and the incentives are going to do little. Divorces are high. The incentives plus promotion of natalism has been tried in Russia, among others, and they’ve only had a small effect.

The EU is fundamentally anti-democratic, anti-european (because it is pro-immigrant to feed the belly of the beast), and globalist in nature. The Hungarians may have some small victories, but the war is what counts. Orban will follow their orders or else he’s out of office. Hungary is fundamentally diluted populism as are many of the other national governments. The choice they will never make is the choice to leave the EU… And that tells you all you need to know. At the end of the day, Brussels wins yet again.

Don't take this as a shot as I agree with several points of your post such as the UK and France being fucked. Part of me doesn't want your post to be true since I'm not familiar with what's going on in Russia, Belgium, etc.

But let's say all of what you said is true. In that case what are the odds we will see the cold war turning hot? I'm in the camp that ever since the migrant crisis with our western overlords destabilizing middle eastern tyrants we've been seeing a rise in wartime crimes in pansy European countries.

Post: #12

And the most popular baby name in Hungary ISN'T Mohammed

Post: #13

(02-20-2019 10:57 PM)ChicagoFire Wrote:  

(02-20-2019 12:46 PM)Heuristics Wrote:  Getting excited about the situation in based Hungary is premature and ignores the true dynamic of the EU and its new members on the frontier. Look at the larger Continental picture, before we turn to discussing Hungary:

UK has a massive number of third worlders who outbreed the brits. EE immigrants there are taking all the jobs, driving down wages, and will continue to do regardless of Brexit because they're already going to be grandfathered in. While being free from the EU is a good thing you can be sure that the one thing that won't change is the ongoing demographic decline.

France has a massive number of Muslims, who only continue to grow in number. In particular, immigrants, as the number increases, the problems and discord increase. Marseilles is a no-go zone, I can confirm having spent time there. Don't visit, fucking dangerous. The Parisian suburbs are also very dangerous and I was lucky I wasn't beat up the last time I was in Paris. The French are watching their country burn with Macron at the helm, he's the new figure for Contiental immigration, and if the investment banker in him has any say, they will accelerate the movement of third-worlders to his country, as well as other countries. Whatever inertia the yellowvest movement has, is gone. Populism has failed again-co-opted by the elites for the 5 millionth time.

Peaceful little Belgium is a breeding ground for terrorism, the intellegence services and police are overwhelmed, the evidence on that is publicly available. The last conversation I had with a liberal belgian, he insisted there were no no-go-zones. That's completely false. Parts of Brussels looks like the middle east. Good thing in the West there's generous welfare.

Sweden is dealing with a spate of grenade attacks (mainly from third-worlders and immigrants from the Balkans), police can't enter areas because they or ambulances will be attacked. The media continues to supress all disagreement and counter-narratives because Marxism and white guilt, which has tremendous power in a high-trust humanitarian oriented collectivist society like Sweden. That will be their downfall. Swedes and their fellow nordic brethen continue having massive amounts of casual sex and not settling down while the immigrants outbreed them and enjoy subsidized housing. Meanwhile Swedes can't get an apartment.

Germany, ground zero for the whole phenomenon is a mess. Kids with braided hair are suggested to have Nazi parents per material given to teachers and parents. Germans continue to work themselves to death, not having kids and indulging in massive amounts of recreational drugs. The German government keeps pushing white guilt on the population despite world war II ending 70 plus years ago. The Turkish population is never going back to Turkey (so there is a parallel state in Germany) and neither are any of the refugees, many who by law should be deported but are not because their presumed countries will not take them. There has been a massive number of attacks on refugee centers so some portion of the population is angry, yet Merkel is still in power. The German economic powerhouse exploits cheap labor, and sells it to their population as redemption from World War II—helping poor people.

Poland, while based, will be eventually forced to cede to the EU’s demands to let migrants in. Yes they have a rightist government, but the economy is simply the biggest issue for the Poles. They’ll roll over to the EU that way the populist government has something to run on for the next elections. For all the guys gaming there, the situation is very temporary and soon you’ll see plenty of migrants there. Put simply, if the Poles don’t comply with EU’s demands they’ll get kicked out. That’s not a reality Poles want to live with. The country in many ways is surviving off of remittances being sent from the UK and other Western Countries. They can’t lose that lifeline for their citizens who face a somewhat undesirable domestic job situation.

In Austria women are wearing hijabs to avoid street harassment. Even though the government is populist again, the EU calls the shots. A ton of rapes are happening there, and as one of the centers of globalism (Vienna in particular) nothing will change.

Italy is in shambles. Ever seen how many 30 year old Italians live with their mothers? That’s counterproductive to having kids. Italians also are leaving their hometowns in massive numbers so all these communities are dying. EU did nothing to stop corruption and business as usual there. On top of that, they were the landing point for the migrants, the Italians are largely mad about that, but then again they don’t have to worry much because the migrants move onto the nicer Western core countries of the EU.

Ukraine continues to be a massive shithole much like Russia. Many Ukrainians go to Poland. There is no EU anytime soon, as corruption continues to paralyze the place not to mention the proxy war in the East that has caused living standards to noticeably decrease.

Greece was always a lost cause and in many ways the situation is similar to Italy. While the immigration situation to the west has stabilized for greeks, living standards have stagnated and no one is having a family. No one can afford to.

The Balkans, next frontier of European expansion are a mess: likely they will be the cross the EU dies on given the volatility of the region, if not Russia/ Ukraine. Massive amounts of corruption are being ignored to accelerate the expansion project which demands cheap, transient labor. If you think the economy is weak in a place like Poland, and others, boy is it bad in the Balkans. Autocratic tendencies of many Balkan leaders are being ignored, which really shows you how anti-democratic the EU is. It's a geopolitical game to expand european influence while neutering Russia.

Russia, although only partly Europe is a key example of misplaced hopes among European natalists who somehow think Putin is reversing the decline. First of all, Russia is massively multi-ethnic, much like the US, so in any meaningful sense their fate is already sealed. Yes, more people are going to church but state religion is being used as a cultural zeitgeist to placate the population while their country suffers from massive graft, economic mismanagement and demographic decline. You could say in simplier terms the church is a low-risk outlet for civic oriented russian nationalism, which is exactly what putin wants. HIV/ AIDs huge problem there because of drug use. Alcoholism still a massive problem but only decreased because the living standards finally improved after the breakup of the Soviet Union, that was bound to happen period because communism is always more shitty than capitalism. Abortions have dropped, but holy shit do the Russians like to abort. The economy is shit and thus people will have very few kids. Another element of the dynamic ignored is that there is massive immigration from FSU states/ Russian states like Uzbekistan, Georgia, Caucuses, etc. No one knows how many but it’s a lot. Need you remember the places have much higher birthrates than the ethnic Russian-slavic population. The improvements have been marginal, but one thing for sure: Russia is a place in decline, and has been for quite some time now. Russia's wealth class makes every effort possible to get out of the country physically as well as getting their money out. The kids they have are raised in the West. Simply put, the population that has the most of a stake in Russia has already cashed their chips in and walked away. That tells you all you need to know about the place's future.

And Hungary: yes Orban is nationalist. He expelled the Soros hydra. Good for him. But life there and in other Eastern European places is still shit. The might of Hungary is nothing compared to the France/ Germany dominated EU. They will meet the EU’s demands or be expelled like Poland. The fact that they have minimal migrants is just a temporary thing. How populist is your populism if the EU gets a veto on it? That’s my question.

No one in Eastern Europe is having kids, and the incentives are going to do little. Divorces are high. The incentives plus promotion of natalism has been tried in Russia, among others, and they’ve only had a small effect.

The EU is fundamentally anti-democratic, anti-european (because it is pro-immigrant to feed the belly of the beast), and globalist in nature. The Hungarians may have some small victories, but the war is what counts. Orban will follow their orders or else he’s out of office. Hungary is fundamentally diluted populism as are many of the other national governments. The choice they will never make is the choice to leave the EU… And that tells you all you need to know. At the end of the day, Brussels wins yet again.

Don't take this as a shot as I agree with several points of your post such as the UK and France being fucked. Part of me doesn't want your post to be true since I'm not familiar with what's going on in Russia, Belgium, etc.

But let's say all of what you said is true. In that case what are the odds we will see the cold war turning hot? I'm in the camp that ever since the migrant crisis with our western overlords destabilizing middle eastern tyrants we've been seeing a rise in wartime crimes in pansy European countries.

Fundamentally the EU has acted as a check on nationalism in the Western countries, keeping in mind that it was still somehow unable to prevent the genocides and ethnic cleansings of the Balkans in the 90s (despite already having plenty of regional power at that point), but in more recent times has been unable to prevent democratic backsliding in countries that are now members, both before and after their EU accessions.

An information asymmetry is preventing the truth from getting out in many of these places, rest assured it's power brokers like Facebook and the MSM silencing the dissent. I read an article on how bad it was in Belgium, and I was like, "holy shit that sounds worse than Sweden, why haven't I heard about it sooner?" In the most basic sense our enlightened European brothers cling even more rigidly to their time-tested failed ideology than even us Americans. It's multi-culturalism, "full speed ahead!" despite all the clear warning signs that are there, and which have had ample time to present themselves. Rule by retarded ideological, spiteful self-loathing technocrats in Brussels, in other words.

The most probable scenario is internal strife, either from the religious Islamist right (in this case I am referring to Islam in the EU as a political movement and rightist because of the general political course Islamist countries and movements take), or a populist movement (something similar to yellow vests that fuses right wing, centrist and leftist thought in opposition to immigration and destruction of European norms, including social, cultural, political, and even religious). The EU either has to push for a power grab, further centralization in other words, or form an army. The army is more likely than further centralization given the unpopularity of the European project right now. Although ironically the army will require further centralization. That fact that in mainstream discourse the EU is now being openly questioned is a huge positive, but it also shows that drastic steps could be taken to further their globalist anti-democratic aims.

The rise in crime in the European Union countries is a third rail. For the left, and larger globalist movement, they are victims, and the fault is on the Europeans (oppressors) who haven't done enough to integrate them. Any problems with the immigrants are just speed bumps on the way to multi-culturalism. Conveniently they forgot about integration or assimilation. That, itself, is the result of the modern identity politics movement. But really, many of these immigrants are bad guests. They are behaving very badly for people taken in for supposedly humanitarian reasons. But, when you really understand these massive inflows of immigration you understand it's not about humanitarinism. It's about economics. That is why they choose not to stay in Greece or Italy and head either North (to Scandinavia) or West, to Germany, France or the UK.

Post: #14

(02-20-2019 12:46 PM)Heuristics Wrote:  And Hungary: yes Orban is nationalist. He expelled the Soros hydra. Good for him. But life there and in other Eastern European places is still shit. The might of Hungary is nothing compared to the France/ Germany dominated EU. They will meet the EU’s demands or be expelled like Poland. The fact that they have minimal migrants is just a temporary thing. How populist is your populism if the EU gets a veto on it? That’s my question.

That moment when you live in EE and someone calls your whole life shit.

Don't believe anything this person writes ever again.

Living in EE has been the 2nd best option behind WE and USA or Canada for last decades and while behind west economically (and only west, and the few Asian tigers), EE is still in top 10% of world. Now with migrant crisis and leftism crisis, I know of no better place to live in the world then EE, where these problems are mostly non-existent.

I always mistrust these people who call 99% of the world a shithole. Probably living in some super high income but leftist infested big city themselves. Lost touch with simpler living and unable to survive without the very crutches that enable the super degenerate lifestyle.

Post: #15

(02-21-2019 02:22 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(02-20-2019 12:46 PM)Heuristics Wrote:  And Hungary: yes Orban is nationalist. He expelled the Soros hydra. Good for him. But life there and in other Eastern European places is still shit. The might of Hungary is nothing compared to the France/ Germany dominated EU. They will meet the EU’s demands or be expelled like Poland. The fact that they have minimal migrants is just a temporary thing. How populist is your populism if the EU gets a veto on it? That’s my question.

That moment when you live in EE and someone calls your whole life shit.

Don't believe anything this person writes ever again.

Living in EE has been the 2nd best option behind WE and USA or Canada for last decades and while behind west economically (and only west, and the few Asian tigers), EE is still in top 10% of world. Now with migrant crisis and leftism crisis, I know of no better place to live in the world then EE, where these problems are mostly non-existent.

I always mistrust these people who call 99% of the world a shithole. Probably living in some super high income but leftist infested big city themselves. Lost touch with simpler living and unable to survive without the very crutches that enable the super degenerate lifestyle.

I lived in parts of Western Germany, and let me say life there can be pretty awful. Life in many parts of the US can also be awful, just not materially so, but soul sucking. Cultural poverty is in many ways worse than financial poverty.

There's a phenomenon that happens with many developed countries where people become paper rich but resource poor. I think this is by design. Let's look at Puerto Rico for example:

Average dude there is broke financially, probably get some form of welfare. But land is very cheap and available (it's not expensive real estate), so he can easily live in a pretty large place, and grow some things for food, or certainly his neighbors can. There's many "poor" people living along beautiful beaches and fishing for a living. Waking up everyday to an amazing view and a tranquil life. His neighbors all speak the same language, have the same cultural identity, history, familiarity, etc... so he always feels very connected, "safe" and at home, allowing him much less stress and more mental energy to pursue towards enjoying life or investing in the community (playing dominos, joining a civic club, blowing league, etc...)

There's crappy infrastructure and poor regulation! Well that means that government has few means to control your life. Since everyone is paper poor, taxes are either not paid or are kept affordable, more people own their own cars, which don't have crazy standards like the US or Germany, so they can actually just drive around an old beater that cost nothing - more freedom. Property taxes are kept very affordable by necessity. The poor infrastructure means you are more self reliant and reliant on your community.

Perhaps some areas of EE have a similar dynamic. I don't know what kind of soul crushing legacy communism left on the area though. Some parts of EE looked pretty depressed, but then again, I don't live there, and many people think the same about areas of PR, until they actually stay there for a bit and find that magically their mental and physical health is improving almost like magic (could be just the weather though, although this effect does not exist like this in Florida).

People who are paper rich but resource poor are absolutely and utterly dependent on the government and corporations. They have nice clean areas to live in, plenty of oppulance, but can do absolutely nothing without that constant flow of money. Absolute wage slavery. Young women are especially attracted to all this vain lifestyle, and we know what the end result is in many cases. It's the epitome of a consumerist lifestyle, all controlled by a few oligarchs to make sure you are satiated enough to keep making them richer and never expect to do anything meaningful in your life.

To be clear, the paper poor, resource rich lifestyle is much, much harder. You have to sacrifice many comforts, deal with frustrations and endless delays. It's a trade off.

Post: #16

(02-20-2019 12:46 PM)Heuristics Wrote:  But life there and in other Eastern European places is still shit.

Really?
Sure wages aren't the best but I don't think life is shit there and neither do most Hungarians. I always have the time of my life when I go there.

I think there's a future there. I've noticed I'm not the only European and certainly not the only Scandinavian who is thinking of migrating to Hungary.
Sweden's has like the worst GDP per-capita annual growth in EU with 0.7% something meanwhile Hungary is 4.3 % and the difference will only become bigger as Sweden takes on more 3rd world immigrants and the productive people flee to places like Hungary and contribute.

Eventually, Hungary will reach the same level and pass other European countries. I don't think it will take too long.

Post: #17

(02-21-2019 02:22 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(02-20-2019 12:46 PM)Heuristics Wrote:  And Hungary: yes Orban is nationalist. He expelled the Soros hydra. Good for him. But life there and in other Eastern European places is still shit. The might of Hungary is nothing compared to the France/ Germany dominated EU. They will meet the EU’s demands or be expelled like Poland. The fact that they have minimal migrants is just a temporary thing. How populist is your populism if the EU gets a veto on it? That’s my question.

That moment when you live in EE and someone calls your whole life shit.

Don't believe anything this person writes ever again.

Living in EE has been the 2nd best option behind WE and USA or Canada for last decades and while behind west economically (and only west, and the few Asian tigers), EE is still in top 10% of world. Now with migrant crisis and leftism crisis, I know of no better place to live in the world then EE, where these problems are mostly non-existent.

I always mistrust these people who call 99% of the world a shithole. Probably living in some super high income but leftist infested big city themselves. Lost touch with simpler living and unable to survive without the very crutches that enable the super degenerate lifestyle.

Notice that I didn’t call Hungary a shithole. Rather I said life there is shit. Why do you think people on the forum visit or live there? Is there a cost factor involved? The answer is yes.

The end of communism was nearly 30 years ago. Yet somehow Eastern Europe hasn’t caught up yet. Some Eastern European countries have even joined the EU. What you can observe is “Multispeed Europe” in action. The east won’t catch up with the west, in fact, the normative premise of the EU is to take advantage of this fact, while selling to the Eastern Europeans that their development process is going well. That’s the truth. You don’t have to agree with it

The problems of much of Eastern Europe are similar: poor employment, not enough children, bloated or corrupt civil sector, democratic backsliding (noticeable), and continued exploitation from EU—making them subservient to the rest of Europe. Sure, there aren’t many migrants, but you seem to forget places like Hungary are huge transit points right now. So the crisis does touch Hungary.

The ironic thing of course is people think by visiting Budapest they’ve visited Hungary, but hey I actually don’t know where you’ve visited. When you get out of the large cities with big infrastructure in Eastern Europe, you start to say “shit, this place doesn’t seem as livable as a thought.” Of course you seldom hear about that because everyone is in the cities. In some of these cities the living standard is measurably 2 to 3 times greater.

Places like Budapest and others can be quite nice, again I didn’t call it or shithole, but remember what the local population is dealing with.

Ironically I have a fondness for shitholes, and no I don’t live in a big city.

Post: #18

(02-21-2019 06:42 AM)No More Mr. Soy Boy Wrote:  

(02-20-2019 12:46 PM)Heuristics Wrote:  But life there and in other Eastern European places is still shit.

Really?
Sure wages aren't the best but I don't think life is shit there and neither do most Hungarians. I always have the time of my life when I go there.

I think there's a future there. I've noticed I'm not the only European and certainly not the only Scandinavian who is thinking of migrating to Hungary.
Sweden's has like the worst GDP per-capita annual growth in EU with 0.7% something meanwhile Hungary is 4.3 % and the difference will only become bigger as Sweden takes on more 3rd world immigrants and the productive people flee to places like Hungary and contribute.

Eventually, Hungary will reach the same level and pass other European countries. I don't think it will take too long.

Did Poland, a really positive case for globalism and the EU ever catch up? The answer is no. They are the de facto mexico of europe.

Post: #19

(02-20-2019 11:55 AM)Rotten Wrote:  Basically, the reason the west is in a demographic death spiral are all of the taxes, regulations and hidden taxes (such as diversity).

This.

I'm not sure where this idea first conceptualized in my mind, but it was fairly recently.

And now I'm beginning to see it everywhere.

Think, Human Resources.

The diversity thing is weird because, it's not like I (or we) are not against diversity of skin color or anything. It's the **push** for the **diversity of culture** that's the issue.

Post: #20

This is good news for any country

Also Fuck Hungary... I found Hungarians in Budapest to be some of the shitiest people I ever encountered in my travels of around 20 countries.

Post: #21

(02-21-2019 09:24 AM)Cr33pin Wrote:  This is good news for any country

Also Fuck Hungary... I found Hungarians in Budapest to be some of the shitiest people I ever encountered in my travels of around 20 countries.

Well, Budapest is the craphole of Hungary, even as a hungarian I hate that place, and I am not alone.

We call it "The wind blows the trash into Budapest" effect...

Post: #22

(02-21-2019 09:24 AM)Cr33pin Wrote:  Also Fuck Hungary... I found Hungarians in Budapest to be some of the shitiest people I ever encountered in my travels of around 20 countries.

Why? Care to give an example?

I find that interesting. After my travels of around 40 countries, I would probably say the exact opposite.

Post: #23

We have a Hungarian calling Budapest a shithole while another member, probably currently based there, is saying its not.

I'm grabbing my popcorn.

Post: #24

(02-21-2019 09:53 AM)Heuristics Wrote:  We have a Hungarian calling Budapest a shithole while another member, probably currently based there, is saying its not.

I'm grabbing my popcorn.

Stop lying.

Any careful reader would observe that:

1)You said - Hungary and the whole EE is shithole

2)I say - the whole EE is not a shithole

3)the Hungarian says: Budapest is shit hole.

Since Budapest doesn't equal the whole of EE there is no contradiction between statements nr.2 and nr.3

Either your written text comprehension is bad or you are lying creating false antagonisms.

Also this question about shitholes is very subjective. For some people everywhere is a shithole, because they themselves are full of shit and whatever hole they go to becomes a shithole.

For other people nearly every place on planet holds some potential benefit, because they themselves have positive vibes and wherever they go they can make the best out of it.

The lesson you should learn is to avoid casually calling other people's countries shitholes.

I wonder where do you choose to live? Which place on this planet is so pristine and pure that it cannot be called a shithole in any way? Please share with your Paradise location.

Post: #25

Incorrect:

When I say a statement like “life is shit” here’s what I mean (and no i didn't call Hungary a shithole):

Quote:Poland, while based, will be eventually forced to cede to the EU’s demands to let migrants in. Yes they have a rightist government, but the economy is simply the biggest issue for the Poles. They’ll roll over to the EU that way the populist government has something to run on for the next elections. For all the guys gaming there, the situation is very temporary and soon you’ll see plenty of migrants there. Put simply, if the Poles don’t comply with EU’s demands they’ll get kicked out. That’s not a reality Poles want to live with. The country in many ways is surviving off of remittances being sent from the UK and other Western Countries. They can’t lose that lifeline for their citizens who face a somewhat undesirable domestic job situation.

That's the reality in most of eastern europe. Remittances and poor jobs, lack of jobs as well.

You fail to see the parallels between Poland and countries that have recently joined the expansion:

Quote:Did Poland, a really positive case for globalism and the EU ever catch up? The answer is no. They are the de facto mexico of europe.

They won't catch up the game is rigged. They will never reach Western standards. There are way too many factors at play that prevent it.

Quote:Ukraine continues to be a massive shithole much like Russia. Many Ukrainians go to Poland. There is no EU anytime soon, as corruption continues to paralyze the place not to mention the proxy war in the East that has caused living standards to noticeably decrease.

Note: I did call Ukraine a shithole, but I don’t think anyone is gonna disagree with me. Corruption there and in many other places does not make the place attractive long term. As well as ongoing geopolitics of the region. Situation is so bad they have to go to Poland, ironically the Poles leave Poland to go somewhere better.

Quote:The Balkans, next frontier of European expansion are a mess: likely they will be the cross the EU dies on given the volatility of the region, if not Russia/ Ukraine. Massive amounts of corruption are being ignored to accelerate the expansion project which demands cheap, transient labor. If you think the economy is weak in a place like Poland, and others, boy is it bad in the Balkans. Autocratic tendencies of many Balkan leaders are being ignored, which really shows you how anti-democratic the EU is. It's a geopolitical game to expand european influence while neutering Russia.

Don't get overly triggered because much of the Balkans are a legitimate shithole much like Ukraine. Ask someone from the Balkans, or maybe run into some of them in Germany. Again, I give a clear reason for why. I feel empathy for people who have a bad situation to deal with.

Quote:Russia, although only partly Europe is a key example of misplaced hopes among European natalists who somehow think Putin is reversing the decline. First of all, Russia is massively multi-ethnic, much like the US, so in any meaningful sense their fate is already sealed. Yes, more people are going to church but state religion is being used as a cultural zeitgeist to placate the population while their country suffers from massive graft, economic mismanagement and demographic decline. You could say in simplier terms the church is a low-risk outlet for civic oriented russian nationalism, which is exactly what putin wants. HIV/ AIDs huge problem there because of drug use. Alcoholism still a massive problem but only decreased because the living standards finally improved after the breakup of the Soviet Union, that was bound to happen period because communism is always more shitty than capitalism. Abortions have dropped, but holy shit do the Russians like to abort. The economy is shit and thus people will have very few kids. Another element of the dynamic ignored is that there is massive immigration from FSU states/ Russian states like Uzbekistan, Georgia, Caucuses, etc. No one knows how many but it’s a lot. Need you remember the places have much higher birthrates than the ethnic Russian-slavic population. The improvements have been marginal, but one thing for sure: Russia is a place in decline, and has been for quite some time now. Russia's wealth class makes every effort possible to get out of the country physically as well as getting their money out. The kids they have are raised in the West. Simply put, the population that has the most of a stake in Russia has already cashed their chips in and walked away. That tells you all you need to know about the place's future.

Quote:And Hungary: yes Orban is nationalist. He expelled the Soros hydra. Good for him. But life there and in other Eastern European places is still shit. The might of Hungary is nothing compared to the France/ Germany dominated EU. They will meet the EU’s demands or be expelled like Poland. The fact that they have minimal migrants is just a temporary thing. How populist is your populism if the EU gets a veto on it? That’s my question.

It's very simple many of the EE countries are net drains on the EU and rely on their handouts to keep afloat. Thus they will follow EU dictates. Keeping in mind, EU is happy to exploit EE. That is "multi-speed europe" in a nutshell.

I do not just place the blame on these countries: I also put it on the EU, and to a lesser extent the US, because there really no was any post-wall Marshall Plan for EE:

Quote:Fundamentally the EU has acted as a check on nationalism in the Western countries, keeping in mind that it was still somehow unable to prevent the genocides and ethnic cleansings of the Balkans in the 90s (despite already having plenty of regional power at that point), but in more recent times has been unable to prevent democratic backsliding in countries that are now members, both before and after their EU accessions.

This is a recurring problem and is now happening in potential Balkan candidates as well as arguably Poland and Hungary.

Easterners head West for the Same reason refugees head West:

Quote:But, when you really understand these massive inflows of immigration you understand it's not about humanitarinism. It's about economics. That is why they choose not to stay in Greece or Italy and head either North (to Scandinavia) or West, to Germany, France or the UK.

Why do you find some many Poles in UK? Why do you find so many Balkans people in Austria, Germany or Switzerland?

Quote:Notice that I didn’t call Hungary a shithole. Rather I said life there is shit. Why do you think people on the forum visit or live there? Is there a cost factor involved? The answer is yes.

No answer from you on this point.

One of my main points about Eastern Europe, it won’t catch up to the West:

Quote:The end of communism was nearly 30 years ago. Yet somehow Eastern Europe hasn’t caught up yet. Some Eastern European countries have even joined the EU. What you can observe is “Multispeed Europe” in action. The east won’t catch up with the west, in fact, the normative premise of the EU is to take advantage of this fact, while selling to the Eastern Europeans that their development process is going well. That’s the truth. You don’t have to agree with it

….

Quote:The problems of much of Eastern Europe are similar: poor employment, not enough children, bloated or corrupt civil sector, democratic backsliding (noticeable), and continued exploitation from EU—making them subservient to the rest of Europe. Sure, there aren’t many migrants, but you seem to forget places like Hungary are huge transit points right now. So the crisis does touch Hungary.

You didn’t address my point about the situation in much of EE outside of the capitols. You show a stunning lack of awareness of the situation on the ground for someone that professes to live there:

Quote:The ironic thing of course is people think by visiting Budapest they’ve visited Hungary, but hey I actually don’t know where you’ve visited. When you get out of the large cities with big infrastructure in Eastern Europe, you start to say “shit, this place doesn’t seem as livable as a thought.” Of course you seldom hear about that because everyone is in the cities. In some of these cities the living standard is measurably 2 to 3 times greater.

Quote:Places like Budapest and others can be quite nice, again I didn’t call it or shithole, but remember what the local population is dealing with.

Locals don't get to live like you.

If you want to objectively see how good of a place it is, look at incomes, crime, employment rate, corruption, ease of doing business, freedom of press, and adherence to democratic values. None of that is subjective by the way.

Quote:Ironically I have a fondness for shitholes, and no I don’t live in a big city.

Where I live is not relevant, but I've seen plenty of the world. I know enough to know that people who don't see more than the surface level of things have perceptions of reality that are massively skewed.