Post: #1

An ideology is not an ethnicity.

Ideologies gain and lose members, ethnicities do not.
Since it is possible to join and leave the Jewish ideology, it cannot be classified as an ethnicity.

I was born in the United States to Christian parents, therefore my ethnicity is American, not Christian.
Same as a man born in Saudi Arabia, his ethnicity is Saudi, not Muslim.

So why then, when referring to themselves in racial terms, do members of the Jewish ideology use their ideological title rather than by the name of their ethnic nation - the sovereign state of Israel?

Post: #2

It is actually an ethnicity and also a religion. Think about them like gypsies. They are everywhere, but none of the places (except Israel, kinda) is theirs.

Post: #3

(02-18-2019 09:15 AM)Dkby Wrote:  It is actually an ethnicity and also a religion. Think about them like gypsies. They are everywhere, but none of the places (except Israel, kinda) is theirs.

Ok then, my ethnicity is Christian.

Post: #4

Is this a genuine question or an attempt at trolling? You seem to have poor reading comprehension. The proof that it's not an ideology is that Jews who are strongly anti-Israel in Middle East politics and aren't even religious still consider themselves Jewish.

Post: #5

Good for them. So Elizabeth Warren is Native American because she "considers" herself Indian?

Post: #6

I might be partially qualified to answer this being both Israeli and Jewish...Not a great scholar on the issue but I'll give you my view in a nutshell if you like.
It is a huge subject so my breakdown may be a bit simplistic or incomplete.

1. Being Israeli means being a citizen of the modern State of Israel, which many Jews are not. Self-identifying as an Israeli is meaningless - it is a legal status. I could identify as an American citizen but that doesn't mean I am one.

2. Israelis share a history and culture that is foreign to most Jews outside of Israel - the wars, the occupation issues, the ethnic mix from different nationalities, the history of preferring national independence and manual work (Kibbutzim) ie getting shit done yourself and fighting for yourself, as opposed to the more cerebral Yeshivas and Torah studies / praying to God to protect you.
Israel's foundation was probematic for many Jews as some of the founders were socialists that hated religion (but still felt Jewish) or preferred to be a normalized nation-state rather than have any kind of divine role in the history of the world.
This flies in the face of several sects of Judaism:

Messiahtic Jews believe (roughly) that we can only found a state when the Messiah comes and rules as king, so the modern state of Israel is a sin and are therefore against Zionism. These are typically the types you'll see dressed all in black but supporting BDS and Iran's regime and protesting against Israel.

Reform Jews (mostly in the US) have accepted globalist and progressive ideals so they are offended by Israel's nationalist nature. Some see them as trying to subvert Judaism itself to incorporate globalist ideals (equality, gay rights, female rabbis, multiculturalism) whereas conservative Jews are conservative, if not always nationalistic. They have alove-hate relationship with Israel as they tend to be wealthy and donate money but also expect a ssay on how the country is run without living here and feeling the consequences (ie they want to force a peace treaty and "giving back" the occupied territories, but will not be here for the exploding buses and the daily terror attacks, not to mention they have not fought and bled for this land as they were too busy making money in the US so who the fuck are they to "return" it?).

So is Judaism an ethnicity or a religious belief? The truth is there is no clear answer, and Jewish scholars have historically asked the question "what is a Jew?" History has taught us that even Jews in Europe who converted to Christianity, served in their countries militaries and were completely removed from religious life and Jewish customs, were still sometimes persecuted as Jews, not just by the state (Nazi party etc.) but also by their angry neighbors in Ukraine, Poland etc. so the religious aspect is not enough to make someone Jewish or non-Jewish.

The view in Israel is that those Jews who think they are "normal" and completely assimilated, may find out that the Goyim disagree when the next pogrom happens.

Again, very broad strokes but I hope that provided some insight.

Post: #7

(02-18-2019 09:01 AM)NomadofEU Wrote:  I was born in the United States to Christian parents, therefore my ethnicity is American

Ethnicity got nothing to do with where you were born?

I find it more strange that you want to identify to an ethnic group as "American", when it's a country built upon several different ethnic groups. It's not exactly like a monoethnicity like Hungary or Iceland with only one ethnic group.

It would make more sense to call your ethnicity Anglo-American if your ancestors are whites who came to America from Britain.
An ethnic American in it the real sense of the word is someone whose ancestors are native Americans/American Indians. Not someone whose ancestors were European.

Post: #8

(02-18-2019 09:39 AM)NomadofEU Wrote:  Good for them. So Elizabeth Warren is Native American because she "considers" herself Indian?

OK, so trolling then.

Post: #9

(02-18-2019 09:45 AM)No More Mr. Soy Boy Wrote:  

(02-18-2019 09:01 AM)NomadofEU Wrote:  I was born in the United States to Christian parents, therefore my ethnicity is American

Ethnicity got nothing to do with where you were born?

I find it more strange that you want to identify to an ethnic group as "American", when it's a country built upon several different ethnic groups. It's not exactly like a monoethnicity like Hungary or Iceland with only one ethnic group.

It would make more sense to call your ethnicity Anglo-American if your ancestors are whites who came to America from Britain.
An ethnic American in it the real sense of the word is someone whose ancestors are native Americans/American Indians. Not someone whose ancestors were European.

Post: #10

Kurds may have Syrian, Turkish, Iraqi or Iranian nationality while living in their ancestral homelands, but still identify as ethnic Kurdish. Until the post WWII ethnic cleansing, Central and Eastern Europe were full of Poles, Germans, Hungarians, and other ethnic identities all mixed together geographically in different nations. The post WWII ethnic cleaning moved tens of millions of Germans out of other territories so those nations would no longer have the problem of having a large minority (or sometimes local majority) that identified as ethnic German instead of Polish or Moldavian or whatever. Part of the reason for Russia's expansionism today is that large numbers of ethnic Russians live in former Soviet territories that are now separate countries with different majority ethnic identities.

Ethnic identity detached from national citizenship is definitely a thing.

Post: #11

(02-18-2019 09:39 AM)RWIsrael Wrote:  So is Judaism an ethnicity or a religious belief? The truth is there is no clear answer, and Jewish scholars have historically asked the question "what is a Jew?"

Thanks for your breakdown.

(02-18-2019 09:59 AM)RoastBeefCurtains4Me Wrote:  Ethnic identify detached from national citizenship is definitely a thing.

Yea sure, but ideology and ethnicity all rolled into one... Negative.

Post: #12

Some Jews identify as Israelis because they are citizens of the country of Israel. In fact, there are Arab Muslims and Christians who identity as Israeli because they are also citizens of the country of Israel (they are commonly referred to as Arab Israelis).

Most Jews do not identify as Israelis because they are not citizens of the country of Israel.

Post: #13

(02-18-2019 09:01 AM)NomadofEU Wrote:  I was born in the United States to Christian parents, therefore my ethnicity is American, not Christian.

Nomad, I enjoy your posts on here, you're a quality poster, but what the hell is this shit?

American is not an ethnicity, nor will it ever be. Your nationality is American, your ethnicity is wherever your ancestors come from in Europe since you're white. You can identify with your nationality of American, that's fine, but your ethnicity will always be wherever your ancestors came from in Europe such as (just examples, not necessarily yours) German, Irish, English, French, ext. ext.

Even Indians, their race is Native American (or Indian). Their ethnicity is whatever tribe they belonged to, whether that be Cherokee, Iroquois, Sioux, ext. ext.

Just like in the rest of the America's, there is no Colombian ethnicity or Brazilian ethnicity. That's their nationality, but their ethnicities are either mestizo, a particular tribe of full blooded Indians, Portuguese, Italian, Spaniard, ext. ext.

Like Tom Brady's wife, Gisselle, her nationality is Brazilian but her ethnicity is German.

Under no circumstances is American an ethnicity, nor will it ever be. It will always be a nationality,. If you attach the word "Native" in front of the word "American" than it's a race, but again not an ethnicity.

Post: #14

(02-18-2019 10:17 AM)Buck Wild Wrote:  Some Jews identify as Israelis because they are citizens of the country of Israel. In fact, there are Arab Muslims and Christians who identity as Israeli because they are also citizens of the country of Israel (they are commonly referred to as Arab Israelis).

Most Jews do not identify as Israelis because they are not citizens of the country of Israel.

So why do individuals born outside of Israel but to ideologically-identifying Jewish parents in say, the country of Ukraine, identify as Jewish and not Ukrainian?

Also see The Law of Return, from Wikipedia:
The Law of Return (Hebrew: חֹוק הַשְׁבוּת‬, ḥok ha-shvūt) is an Israeli law, passed on 5 July 1950, which gives Jews the right to come and live in Israel and to gain Israeli citizenship.

In 1970, the right of entry and settlement was extended to people with one Jewish grandparent and a person who is married to a Jew, whether or not he or she is considered Jewish under Orthodox interpretations of Halakha.

Post: #15

(02-18-2019 10:05 AM)NomadofEU Wrote:  

(02-18-2019 09:39 AM)RWIsrael Wrote:  So is Judaism an ethnicity or a religious belief? The truth is there is no clear answer, and Jewish scholars have historically asked the question "what is a Jew?"

Thanks for your breakdown.

(02-18-2019 09:59 AM)RoastBeefCurtains4Me Wrote:  Ethnic identify detached from national citizenship is definitely a thing.

Yea sure, but ideology and ethnicity all rolled into one... Negative.

Religion is not exactly ideology. I'm sure can find plenty of white Christian Europeans who are globalists or do not have strong nationalistic tendencies.
Plenty of different Christian sects as well, so Christianity is not a monolith with a singular coherent ideology.

Regarding Ethnicity - within Israel Ashkenazi Jews are proud of their European heritage (arts, music, mathematics etc.) and look down on Mizrahi or Ethiopean Jews and vice versa, but all are still Israelis.
Christian Arabs and Muslim Arabs are still Israeli in that sense, although they obviously have a different definition of what Israel should be.

Post: #16

(02-18-2019 10:23 AM)NomadofEU Wrote:  

(02-18-2019 10:17 AM)Buck Wild Wrote:  Some Jews identify as Israelis because they are citizens of the country of Israel. In fact, there are Arab Muslims and Christians who identity as Israeli because they are also citizens of the country of Israel (they are commonly referred to as Arab Israelis).

Most Jews do not identify as Israelis because they are not citizens of the country of Israel.

So why do individuals born outside of Israel but to ideologically-identifying Jewish parents in say, the country of Ukraine, identify as Jewish and not Ukrainian?

Also see The Law of Return, from Wikipedia:
The Law of Return (Hebrew: חֹוק הַשְׁבוּת‬, ḥok ha-shvūt) is an Israeli law, passed on 5 July 1950, which gives Jews the right to come and live in Israel and to gain Israeli citizenship.

In 1970, the right of entry and settlement was extended to people with one Jewish grandparent and a person who is married to a Jew, whether or not he or she is considered Jewish under Orthodox interpretations of Halakha.

What are you talking about? They identify as Ukranian Jews. I know this because I know a few Russian and Ukranian Jews.

This is a really low quality thread.

Post: #17

Then don't respond and put me on ignore.
I'm just trying to answer a question and so far the most honest poster has been RWIsrael who gave an honest breakdown and concluded that there is no answer.

I'm sure there is an answer but all I'm getting is anger, hyperbole and disrespect for simply asking a question and following up on answers that don't hold up.

Post: #18

Many of the global elites are hedging their bets, and in case the world goes to hell they have a backup plan called New Zealand real estate.

Why don't they identify as Kiwis?

Post: #19

This is really simple, despite all the puff and smoke people deliberately or accidentally make.

A Jew is someone who descends from Abraham trough mothernal line, it's a nationality.

An Israeli is a citizen of Izrael.

A Judaist is someone who believes in religion of Judaism.

But according to Religion of Judaism - the covenant of God, with all its duties responsibilities and benefits stands with each jew, whether he is a practicing Judaist or not.

It is very hard to follow all the Judaism laws so most Jews have an average or even poor observance level. They still remember that they are Jews and not some other nation as long as they observe at least some things like major Judaist holidays for example.

The uncertainty is created because Jews themselves don't use the word "Judaist". They use the word "jew" when speaking both of religion and nationality. You must understand whether they speak about nationality or religion from the context.

The perceived ambiguity of the term "jew" is beneficial for creating an aura of mystery and importance around the whole phenomenon and serves as reminder for ethnic jews to remember honouring their traditions and to not blend in so they are going to keep talking that way and will not use commonly terms like "Judaist" just to make things more clear for some young goy OP

Post: #20

I don't think I ever heard the word Judaist before, so I doubt a) it's that common or b) a conspiracy of mystery is the reason behind its rarity. You may have noticed Catholics don't call themselves "Papists", that's a term only sectarian Protestants obsessed with Catholics use, it's not Catholics conspiring in the shadows to keep their Papist conspiracy secret.

Post: #21

Outside of Sammy Davis Jr. how many converts to Judaism are there?

There are far more Jews who converted to other religions (like Bob Dylan) rather than the other way around.

This is why the word Jew is treated as both an ethnicity and a religion even though technically it isn't true.

Post: #22

I think Mage was just using a Russian/Slavic term which is "иудаист" and translating it word-for-word. It's uncommon in the West, and I haven't heard it here.

Post: #23

You can become a Jew by becoming a convert to Judaism. But you cannot become an Israeli just by moving to Israel. Jewry is primary, Israel secondary.

Also, due to Zionist influence it is not very well known that before Israel was set up as a state by secular Jews after Balfour declaration, in 19th and 18th century already a few groups of religious Jews from Eastern Europe had moved there on their own, to live under Ottomans. In Judaism it is forbidden that all Jews suddenly move to Israel, but a few can. So actually they were first there and they have a valid point now saying that we want to live here but not under Zionist regime. It is not like the religious Jews are simply ungrateful for the Zionist gift, because they already were there before Zionists and their design for Israel is different. You can be a Jew, live in Israel and not be an Israeli, all at the same time.

Since Israeli identity without being a Jew is essentially meaningless - as demonstrated by the lower social status of Israeli Arabs - I would say that Jews tend to identify as Jews rather than Israelis because it is their primary identity and Israeli only a second one. Also, because not all Israelis are Jews there could be an element of duplicity in such identification. This is also, I think, why two states solution rather than one state solution is more popular as a key to solving the Israel-Palestine problem
This duplicity element was demonstrated very well by the famous case a year ago in Germany when a young Israeli wearing kipa was assaulted by some Arab youths in a well-to-do district of Berlin, and no one helped him (this was actually the point why the case gained some notoriety). Everyone thought the victim was a Jew, and only a few days later it was announced the guy was actually the Israeli Arab.
And few months ago I was in Berlin and passing by the synagogue I noticed that it was protected by armed German policemen, but Arab looking ones, and who, with their big bushy beards looked almost like ISIS militants, just accidentally in the German uniforms. This was the only time during my week in Berlin when I saw Arab-looking policemen. Maybe Berliners like pranks... but if I were a Jew going inside, these strange guards would not really make me feel better. But If I were an Arab... maybe they would.

Post: #24

(02-18-2019 09:39 AM)RWIsrael Wrote:  I might be partially qualified to answer this being both Israeli and Jewish...

It qualifies you for a rep point from me, for sure.

Aloha!

Post: #25

i think you have to look at the fact that jews are discriminated back in the past as the christians so they are not identify themselves but the world at that time make it up. and also when time goes by, even speading into many other places, they still keep their connection as an ethnic for the blood so i understand jew is an union of people having the similar blood. like a media group Mantis, they work in many fields and make many successful websites like ONG, The gamer, APKnite, etc, though the sites work indepently, they still share their connection.