Post: #26

The issue here is the ideology behind it. If that is indeed what's driving things here then it's fucked up.

Having said that, there's no point arguing about actual 'health benefits/negatives' or whatever, as these only make their mark when you get older after decades of dietary abuse. Fit, young soldiers can eat whatever they want without fear of consequences during the brief time of their service, it's all just food.

In terms of practicality, I like the idea of soldiers getting used to as little food as they can, cos I'm sure that's what things will be like when SHTF.

After all, the Japanese soldier of WW2 anecdotally was said to be the best in the world and could march all day and fight at the end of it on just one bowl of rice. Or so the stories go (Wikipedia does actually mention meat in their rations, who the fuck knows). Whatever the truth, these poor cunts won't be finding 4000 calories a day to chow down on when they are facing the Russians one day.

Post: #27

This is fine. Two vegetarian meals a week is not going to make them weak. If anything, it might be healthier.

Post: #28

I don't understand the distinction between meat and fish. Both require killing a living creature to eat its flesh. I'm all in favor of eating meat, but I've always considered fish to be meat. It's just a specific form of meat, like mammal, reptile, and bird meat.

Post: #29

(10-09-2018 03:54 AM)RoastBeefCurtains4Me Wrote:  I don't understand the distinction between meat and fish. Both require killing a living creature to eat its flesh. I'm all in favor of eating meat, but I've always considered fish to be meat. It's just a specific form of meat, like mammal, reptile, and bird meat.

For ethical purposes there is little difference and vegetarianism is just more like a stepping stone for full veganism, due to mammals and birds having more complex brain and arguably higher consciousness.

For health purposes - the more complex the source of protein, the more effort it takes for the body to break it down. Bacon is more taxing for digestive system then poultry, but fish is even less taxing. Fish hit that sweet spot where you still get a lot of the nutrients but it's easy to digest. With meat you get the same or even less nutrients and spend much more time and energy digesting it.

It's probably much more healthy to eat fish then meat - depending on species and preparation you generally get about the same about of protein, but you also get omega oils and your digestion is easier.

Post: #30

(10-08-2018 09:19 PM)Hand of Chaos Wrote:  Finland ran the Russians (well, Soviets) ragged the last time they made a go of it. I wouldn't dismiss them out of hand.

...wait, Soviet is not Russian? Who then?

Post: #31

(10-09-2018 04:44 AM)JackinMelbourne Wrote:  

(10-08-2018 09:19 PM)Hand of Chaos Wrote:  Finland ran the Russians (well, Soviets) ragged the last time they made a go of it. I wouldn't dismiss them out of hand.

...wait, Soviet is not Russian? Who then?

Well, Stalin was Georgian, as millions of other Soviet citizens who where not Russian.

Post: #32

Here's some more info:

Health, climate change concerns inspire weekly vegetarian meals at Finland's army canteens

Quote:Starting this autumn garrison canteens across Finland will begin offering vegetarian-only meals on a weekly basis. According to Major Eija Pulkki of the Defence Forces logistics centre, members of the Armed Forces will get to enjoy a fully vegetarian meal once a week.

Since the garrisons serve two meals -- lunch and dinner -- catering services will ensure that one of them is vegetarian. The new menu will reflect the change, with two vegetarian meals each week – either at lunch or dinner time.

The vegetarian menus will contain neither meat nor fish. However caterers will be allowed to use milk products and eggs to prepare dishes. Meal services provider Leijona Catering will henceforth be serving meals centered on potatoes and pasta with soy and quorn served as meat substitutes. According to canteen services manager Pulkki, all garrisons also provide vegan meals.

So far all of Finland’s garrisons cater to vegetarians and overall, the Army has sought to introduce increasing amounts of vegetables into soldiers’ diets. Last year the organisation representing conscripts had proposed the concept of the meat-free day, but army caterers turned down the idea.

“Many schools have already introduced an all-vegetarian day but we believe it’s better to divide it into two. Schools provide one warm meal [a day] but we offer two,” said development manager Petri Hoffren of Leijona Catering.

According to Hoffren the decision to increase the availability of vegetarian options was driven by health concerns and the impact of meat production on climate change rather than money.

“Climate change is in the background but vegetarian food isn’t cheaper,” he noted.

All the same, the catering firm has had to think long and hard about the economics of food since the company will not be serving soldiers well-known vegetarian favourites such as broad beans or pulled oats. Those items will be replaced by options such as shredded soy and quorn as meat substitutes.

Last year a magazine survey found that only 88 of roughly 20,000 conscripts in Finland were vegetarian, although there were vast regional differences. The proportion of vegetarians in Lapland’s Jaeger Brigade is less than half a percent (0.23percent), while 0.63 percent of Helsinki’s Kaarti Jaeger Regiment claimed to abstain from meat.

According to number crunchers Statistics Finland, in the wider population just under one-fifth of young people aged between 15 and 24 had entirely given up eating meat by the end of 2016.

Conscripts on special diets can notify canteen staff of their requirements. Leijona Catering then prepares suitable meals which are either served at canteens or out in the field. Special diets are not in themselves an obstacle to acceptance into Finland’s special forces, although health conditions that require special diets may prove to be.

So the Finnish army was already offering vegetarian and vegan meals as an option, the only difference is that now it's mandatory twice per week.

Then again, they serve two meals per day (lunch and dinner), seven times a week, so 14 meals per week. Now 2 out of those 14 would be vegetarian. Doesn't sound that bad.


There's also a new report out:

Vegetarian meals satisfy army nutrition requirements, Defence Forces report finds

Quote:A study carried out by the Finnish Defence Forces has found that the vegetarian meals served by the Leijona Catering service in Finland's garrisons meet the army's required nutrition requirements. Defence Minister Jussi Niinistö requested the report, the findings of which were handed over on Friday.

"The amount of total daily energy in the garrison meals on offer should be 3,300 to 3,400 calories per person, according to the standards set by the Defence Forces food management unit," the study said.

Among other things, the study also mentions that the Defence Forces will monitor the effects of the dietary changes, and supply the catering company with feedback based on this information.

The Finnish military mentions in the report that vegetarian meals have been offered regularly in their garrisons since 2016, accompanied by endeavours to increase the amount of vegetables included in regular lunches and dinners.

"The concept of a 'vegetarian food day' traces back to an initiative from conscript committees that was submitted to Leijona Catering in October 2017. The proposal suggested that the garrison canteens would start serving 'at least one vegetarian meal a week'", the study said.

It's noteworthy that a similar initiative was launched in Norway a while ago, but soldiers were not impressed:

Why Norwegian soldiers didn't approve of 'Meat free Monday'

Quote:In 2013, the Norwegian Armed Forces decided to introduce a meat reduction scheme, by including Meat free Monday in the military mess halls. The initiative was due to both health reasons and environmental concerns. However, as of yet, Meat free Monday has not been implemented.

Charlotte Kildal and Karen Lykke Syse at the Centre for Development and the Environment at the University of Oslo have just published an article based on a study of the introduction of Meat free Mondays (MfM) in the Norwegian Armed Forces.

The study found significant barriers preventing the military from reducing meat consumption. The initiative was not anchored institutionally and interviews with soldiers in focus groups demonstrated their scepticism to eating less meat.

The initiative was more or less launched through a newspaper article, and many chefs were caught by surprise.

As a result of poor institutional anchoring, resistance was fostered at several levels. Several chefs were unsupportive of the project, as they had not been briefed about the idea before it was launched in the newspaper.

Another reason why the initiative failed was low recognition of the significant environmental benefits of reduced meat consumption. Also, a lack of familiarity with vegetarian food among the soldiers, kitchen staff and central key policy makers in the Armed Forces.

During the study soldiers pointed to the high physical demands, number of exercises and need for protein to explain why they were negative to Meat free Mondays in military mess halls.

"Several of the soldiers were sceptical towards the meat reduction initiative as they were afraid a vegetarian meal would not offer the same comfort and saturation as meat," says Kildal.

This is illustrated in the following quote (from the study):

“The challenge with the vegetarian food is that I have to eat twice the amount to cover my needs. If I had a vegetarian dinner, I have to eat another big meal later in the evening.”

Because soldiers are expected to be strong, powerful and healthy, eating muscles to build muscles was regarded as a means to an end.

The soldiers also linked physical and psychological wellbeing to meat-eating. They would highlight the physical characteristics of beef, the tenderness and texture of a piece of meat. One soldier claimed that “It is a feeling of mental wellbeing, when you consider the fact that it is pure and delicious meat.”

A recurring theme in the interviews was food as a means of comfort and reward, and meat was specifically emphasised. In every focus group discussion, the need for motivational, tasty and filling food was emphasized, says Kildal.t

"Soldiers in our study embrace, embody and consume masculine values through eating meat, and this serves as a symbolic and physical means to maintain masculine ideology," says Syse.

The soldiers claimed an initiative like this simply served to ‘green-wash’ the institution.

“It is ironic in an institution that uses tanks, trucks, fighter planes and a bunch of vehicles that have high emissions, and even leave the engine running.”

Accordingly, soldiers were sceptical to reduce meat consumption and felt that a decrease in meat consumption should be undertaken elsewhere.

Reducing high levels of meat consumption is important to address climate change, environmental degradation, global food security and chronic diseases. Public initiatives such as MfM may guide and educate sustainable food consumption.

"The Armed Forces should be given credit for their courage! We need courageous institutions that can promote sustainable alternatives. However the study has shown that the military was not quite ready for change yet," says Syse.

"It also shows that you need more emphasis must be given to the socio-cultural factors that drive consumption and to get key actors within the organsiasation on board before you start implementing the initiative. In the military, the socio-cultural barriers to meat reduction were many."

"When institutions like this choose to focus on an initiative like MfM, it is paramount that they take the time to convey the importance of their actions to the group whose diets they address," says Syse.

Post: #33

I'm sure she's getting her protein.

WB.

Post: #34

I sort of know a guy in the Finnish military online, he actually claimed not to know about it until I linked him the article, ha.

Apparently (according to him)it affects them very little. Breakfast is mainly vegetarian anyway, with bread, porridge, bread toppings, etc. Or cereal. All they have to do to make it vegetarian is swap ham for cheese. And unless you have a very light day, you never have lunch at the barracks anyway, so you would have your non-vegetarian food out on the field, either rations or soldier made food out in the forest.

He says he's basically never had vegetarian food while he served.

He doesn't know if this policy is affecting his military base or not. It's unclear if it's every base or only some.

Post: #35

Meanwhile...in Russia.

   

Post: #36

(10-09-2018 04:26 AM)Mage Wrote:  ...
It's probably much more healthy to eat fish then meat - depending on species and preparation you generally get about the same about of protein, but you also get omega oils and your digestion is easier.

Though you then need to be concerned about excess mercury in your diet...

As for all things "vegetarian". Between the use of 'blood & bone' fertilizer, the number of field mice & other critters that get whipped up during a wheat harvest & such.
Fair to say the only "ethical" food production would be that which is conducted in a backyard by yourself where you can monitor & control the whole process.

Post: #37

Dude, that is ball sweat. It happens in fucking hot countries.

(10-09-2018 01:51 AM)blck Wrote:  

(10-08-2018 11:12 PM)BeardedMastodon Wrote:  Wow. Just wow. I wonder if Israel which has the most successful military for their size does this. They should...

Post: #38

Republics of the Soviet Union:

Russia
Ukraine
Belarus
Uzbekistan
Kazakhstan
Georgia
Azerbaijan
Lithuania
Moldavia
Latvia
Kirghizia
Tajikistan
Armenia
Turkmenia
Estonia

Sure, we called them "the Russians" as a shorthand reference back in the day, and Russia was, of course, dominant in terms of size, population and power, but calling the USSR "the Russians" isn't quite accurate.

(10-09-2018 04:44 AM)JackinMelbourne Wrote:  

(10-08-2018 09:19 PM)Hand of Chaos Wrote:  Finland ran the Russians (well, Soviets) ragged the last time they made a go of it. I wouldn't dismiss them out of hand.

...wait, Soviet is not Russian? Who then?

Post: #39

(10-10-2018 02:52 AM)Hand of Chaos Wrote:  Republics of the Soviet Union:

Russia
Ukraine
Belarus
Uzbekistan
Kazakhstan
Georgia
Azerbaijan
Lithuania
Moldavia
Latvia
Kirghizia
Tajikistan
Armenia
Turkmenia
Estonia

Sure, we called them "the Russians" as a shorthand reference back in the day, and Russia was, of course, dominant in terms of size, population and power, but calling the USSR "the Russians" isn't quite accurate.

(10-09-2018 04:44 AM)JackinMelbourne Wrote:  

(10-08-2018 09:19 PM)Hand of Chaos Wrote:  Finland ran the Russians (well, Soviets) ragged the last time they made a go of it. I wouldn't dismiss them out of hand.

...wait, Soviet is not Russian? Who then?

Fuck you!

All these republics were conquered and were unwilling participants of Soviet Union.

At least in Baltic states 99% of all native speaking people detest soviet regime and all things communist.

It's the Russian speaking part of population that sadly flirts with the idea or restoring the "power and might" of Soviet Union.

You know what is tragedy of Latvian people? Half of young male population was unwillingly drafted in Soviet army, other half was unwillingly drafted in Nazi army. Brother was forced to fight against brother because each side were holding half of their family as hostages to be sent to death camp / gulag if they do not fight.

To this day there are cretins and hatemongers who keep calling these few old people remaining or their descendants Nazis or Soviets.

Fuck you!


Obviously not all Russians are pro soviet and pro communist - but very very many of them are obsessed with this vain idea of Russia having to return to superpower status and Russia being wronged by destruction of Soviet Union.

The Russian mentality allows them to be content with corrupt government, with bribery and oligarchy, with kleptocracy and economic stagnation being seen as normal, if it is all but for the glory and power of the gerzava (state). This makes them capable of extreme austerity, which makes them dangerous and unpredictable.

This mindset is very different from western European mindset where people are mostly concerned with quality of life and freedoms and and liberties and strong economy and don't care about the might of their country and size of their armies that much.

Oh, and fuck you for calling my people soviets a thousand times.

Post: #40

(10-08-2018 07:48 PM)Teutatis Wrote:  Mage is exactly right, and you bring up a very good point most people don't think about, in war time being able to fast for long periods and survive from the land is extremely beneficial.

The Chinese noted the Mongols can go days without food. Probably due to Ketosis since they are a herding people that relies on meat and dairy for most of their diet:

Quote:The Chinese noted with surprise and disgust the ability of the Mongol warriors to survive on little food and water for long periods; according to one, the entire army could camp without a single puff of smoke since they needed no fires to cook. Compared to the Jurched soldiers, the Mongols were much healthier and stronger. The Mongols consumed a steady diet of meat, milk, yogurt, and other diary products, and they fought men who lived on gruel made from various grains. The grain diet of the peasant warriors stunted their bones, rotted their teeth, and left them weak and prone to disease. In contrast, the poorest Mongol soldier ate mostly protein, thereby giving him strong teeth and bones. Unlike the Jurched soldiers, who were dependent on a heavy carbohydrate diet, the Mongols could more easily go a day or two without food.

Likewise they brought food with them in the form of herds of animals where they got their milk and meat. They didn't need supply trains either.

https://www.amazon.com/Genghis-Khan-Maki...F8&s=books


Their Nomadic lifestyle trained them in Logistics and Military maneuvers and other aspects that make them a potent force:

Post: #41

(10-10-2018 06:12 AM)Mage Wrote:  ~whoosh~

Fuck you!

Fuck you!

Oh, and fuck you for calling my people soviets a thousand times.

Post: #42

I grew up with a decent amount of finns, When the Russians come they Finns will also come to their senses. A hard people who don't need luxuries. They will fight to the last men they're definitely not pussies. Even to this they are quite manly people, Their hard winters created this mentality

Post: #43

I wouldn't mind the dietary restrictions on limited form - but they are based on propaganda and worse thing yet to come. Most people eat too much meat anyway, but my bet is that they are going to revv up the vegetarian meals to 4-5 per week and later 1-2 will become vegan.

Then in some 50 years it will be all insect protein and vegan.

Post: #44

An army runs on its stomach as Napoleon once said. All the better when that stomach is filled with soy and greasy potato chips.