Post: #1

Invited girl I know from social circle to watch a series thats currently very popular in young adults age. She countered with inviting me over at hers to watch it instead.

Went there and did the kino escalation and it was going smoothly ( she has given me indicators from before so she was quite receptive).

Went for kiss about 45 mins in and then soon after few make outs, got her bra off etc but she stopped me each time I went for pants. Every time she said she liked me and didn't want to rush. I tried few times to go back to making out and then fingering but couldn't get any further.

Cos I had more alcohol then I was comfortable with to drive, she was happy for me to stay the night and invited me to her bed to spoon.
I didn't actually drink much but enough to make me worry about drink-driving so took away my ability to just walk away due to LMR.

Apart from that, I think me trying to push-pull with fingering and dry was the only ideas I had to deal with LMR in that stage so would be nice to get some tips for this specific situation.

The next day after that, I invited her to mine but she replied she prefered to stay in that night but could do another day.

Which makes me wonder - why would a girl refuse to go and do something with a guy she likes if she has nothing on anyway?

Some clarifications:

I know that she may have other plans, changed her mind about me, may have something important the next day etc but lets assume that she doesn't and still wants to progress with me (it's end of university, 99.9% of students are gone and there really isn't much going on in town).

Also, she's leaving the country for the summer in a week's time which confuses me even more. There isn't enough time for anything serious to happen but if anything until this night she has been pushing this to happen more than I have so why not just enjoy what it is and also make the most of the time we are both free and have nothing going on.

What I guess I'm asking is, do girls purposefully avoid seeing someone they like in certain situations?

Post: #2

1. Thanks for not driving drunk.

2. She is clearly 100% in control of this "relationship." She says where, when, and what you'll do. You are her little cuddle bear. Great if you like spooning, not so great if you want your dick wet.

3. She doesn't find that you have enough SMV for her to drop her panties. (Cuddle bears don't make vaginas tingle. They make them dry.)

I'd say she's saving herself for something more shiny wherever she's going for the summer. As I've mentioned before, nothing opens a girls legs like "travel".

Learn from this experience and solider on to the next girl.

Post: #3

(06-15-2018 02:10 PM)Baphomet Wrote:  1. Thanks for not driving drunk.

2. She is clearly 100% in control of this "relationship." She says where, when, and what you'll do. You are her little cuddle bear. Great if you like spooning, not so great if you want your dick wet.

3. She doesn't find that you have enough SMV for her to drop her panties. (Cuddle bears don't make vaginas tingle. They make them dry.)

I'd say she's saving herself for something more shiny wherever she's going for the summer. As I've mentioned before, nothing opens a girls legs like "travel".

Learn from this experience and solider on to the next girl.

1) I never drink and drive, know too many people that have died from it. Should have probably taken a taxi to hers given how likely it was for me to drink though, to give myself the ability to walk away.

2)

Fair but how do I change this? If I invite a girl over that has previously shown interest to me without me asking for it in any way and she invites me over instead, If I decline then I can't even attempt to get my dick wet.

Sure I lost authority but I did try to word it as if I'm benefiting from this situation. "Get the drinks and popcorn ready then"


3) In that case, why does she even bother inviting me and let me do everything else? I'll understand if she wants the ego boost of someone chasing her, but if I only respond to her when it suits me then I don't feel like I'm lowering my value.

Post: #4

1) You lost leverage there and it made it impossible to whip your cock out and tell her to blow you and leave if she refused after making out and trying to finger her.

2) You change it by not making the same mistake again. Be ready to leave on your terms at any time.

3) Things happened in a way that she was able to reign you into her sphere of control. Had you not lost your leverage, you could probably have turned things around. I don't think it's so much about value but rather that you played into her "cuddle bear" game as Baphomet called it.

In fairness she did leave it open for another day. Up your text game and make sure that she comes to you next time and go caveman on her.

Post: #5

Alright, so let's start this off with my favorite rallying cry: Attraction CANNOT be negotiated. It's either there, or it isn't.

So, taking a look at what you said here, I've drawn a few conclusions:

1: You have to watch your rationalization hamster, because it's running pretty hard right now. More on that in a minute, so please bare with me.

2: This girl had no intention of sleeping with you from the beginning, and is either not interested in you as you think (most likely), or a structured woman (less likely, but still possible).

3: Women do NOT think like men do. Reading your post as a man, and assuming it all to be true, her actions do not make logical sense. But, women are not logical.

Okay, so let's break this down, starting with her level of attraction which will help you to contextualize her actions. On a 1-10 scale, I'd say this girl was about a 5 for you. Not particularly crazy about you, but receptive enough to give you a shot. The margin for error on these types of women is thin.

(06-15-2018 01:52 PM)coffeedrinker Wrote:  Invited girl I know from social circle to watch a series thats currently very popular in young adults age. She countered with inviting me over at hers to watch it instead.

Obviously you're interested in banging this girl, so you basically hit her with the standard Netflix and Chill. Bad move. Women know EXACTLY what it means when you suggest they come over and watch a show. There's no mystery there. Women get off on mystery, and you're clearly signalling your intentions from the get go, which stomps on any sexual tension you could have built up.

With women that are 50/50 on their attraction to you, you don't want to make such an overt move like this. You want to maintain plausible deniability to get her rationalization hamster going. Without knowing your situation or logistics I would recommend a nighttime activity of some kind, with good logistics if it starts working well so you can take her back to your place. I personally take women with me on beach walks right near my condo. Adjust accordingly based on your situation.

So your girl sees through you that you're trying to bang, has a laugh with her friends, declines your invite and because it's better than being alone, invites you to her place. At this point, she's controlling the interaction. If she's in control, there's no mystery. If there's no mystery, her attraction isn't going to go up. Only downhill from there.

(06-15-2018 01:52 PM)coffeedrinker Wrote:  Went there and did the kino escalation and it was going smoothly

It was going smoothly because she knew she wasn't going to be sleeping with you. More to come.

(06-15-2018 01:52 PM)coffeedrinker Wrote:  Went for kiss about 45 mins in and then soon after few make outs, got her bra off etc but she stopped me each time I went for pants. Every time she said she liked me and didn't want to rush.

She's not lying in this case, she does like you, but not enough for you to get into her pants. Her raw attraction level wasn't high enough at the outset. You boost her attraction to you by combining kino, conversation and mystery. You got the kino part, which is big, but because you were watching a TV show instead of talking to her (more importantly, getting her to talk about herself), and she already knew what you were looking for by the venue choice?

(06-15-2018 01:52 PM)coffeedrinker Wrote:  so took away my ability to just walk away due to LMR

Don't use booze as a crutch. Also, don't bail if she gives you LMR. Personally, I just ease off, and let her come to me if I get LMR. If she doesn't? No sweat, I make my exit when I want to. Same goes to you. Always be in control of yourself. If you aren't, then you've got no business with women until you are. Your chica knew this, and was probably giddy at the thought of getting cuddled without having to put out with someone that wasn't really doing it for her.

This happens to all of us when we're learning, so don't take it too hard! I've had my fair share of these moments.

(06-15-2018 01:52 PM)coffeedrinker Wrote:  The next day after that, I invited her to mine but she replied she prefered to stay in that night but could do another day.

I understand she's leaving, but you pushed this a too hard. She already knows what you want, which is why she refused in the first place, but you went ahead and did it again. For a woman like this, back off for a bit, talk to other women, and then try to set something else up down the road that has plausible deniability. Don't invite her directly to your place, because her level of attraction isn't high enough for her to sleep with you yet.

(06-15-2018 01:52 PM)coffeedrinker Wrote:  lets assume that she doesn't and still wants to progress with me

Don't make assumptions. Stick to facts, and her actions. That's the only way your game will improve. Here are the facts:

1: She refused going to your place, but invited you to hers.
2: You encountered LMR
3: She refused your invite, but still left the possibility open of another.

This says that this girl is on the fence. She doesn't know if she wants to get to know you better or not. If you want her to be interested in a progression, she needs to feel your strength as a man, and not be able to immediately know your intentions. In this type of situation, back off and let her come at her own pace. If that's too slow, get more women. Getting more women is always the solution anyway.

(06-15-2018 01:52 PM)coffeedrinker Wrote:  so why not just enjoy what it is and also make the most of the time we are both free and have nothing going on

If you're looking at this as a man, it makes logical sense. Women do not operate logically. They operate based on emotions, which you trigger with masculine behavior, conversation, and unclear intentions. None of those were on display, so of course, her attraction didn't go up to the point where she would sleep with you.

(06-15-2018 01:52 PM)coffeedrinker Wrote:  What I guess I'm asking is, do girls purposefully avoid seeing someone they like in certain situations?

They don't. If a girl really likes you, she will move heaven and earth to see you. One of my current women will literally open her schedule and cancel her other plans any time I say I'm free and want to see her. Her friends predictably hate me.

Keep that in mind. If she likes you, she'll open up her schedule. The degree to which her schedule opens is very closely related to how much she likes you.

Okay my man, I've broken this entire thing down, so let's finish off with how you get better. First, don't take this criticism too hard. You've gotta make mistakes to get better.

Don't take women directly to your place until you know it's going down. They know what it means. Spend more time asking your woman questions, and getting information out of her. When she asks you questions, keep it fun and light. Tease her a bit, between light kino and humor in response to her questions.

If you're doing this right, her emotions will get going, and if she begins to associate you with positive emotions, her attraction will go up. Then you can amp up the kino and slay the poontang with no LMR.

This is a really basic overview. I would suggest picking up Roosh's required reading, doing some more approaches, and then expanding your horizons from there.

Best of luck OP!

Post: #6

Am I the only one thinking "demand a grand tour of the house then laughingly neg the fuck out her living space"?

That would be my salvage backup in this instance. You have time to mentally fortify yourself before you go in, so it might be her court but the ball's in your end of that court.

Social game, right? So you both know the same people and she's unwittingly placed herself in a position of vulnerability. She wants to court attention without putting out and she believes putting herself in a safe space allows her to call the shots.

"Holy fuck. Does anyone else know how messy your room is?!"

Bada bing. Bada boom. The balance of power shifts. You are now a secret keeper and she has to provide an incentive for that.

The game continues. "I watch these detective shows, and it's always so cool how they can tell all this stuff about people from the little details in their house."

If you can keep it light and fun (ie: more fun that a stupid TV show) then once you flip her "my house, my rules" sense of safety into "oh my God, I've opened myself to being totally revealed" then there's a solid chance she's going to do anything in order to drag your attention away.

Do this right and she'll start the kino herself dragging you away from shit she doesn't want you to dig into, even if it's something as benign as a DVD collection that she claims "all belong to my flatmate!"

"Ohhhhh. Riiight. Let's start building a psychological profile of 'your flatmate', eh?"

"What are you upset about. I'm taking an interest. It turns out you really are a fascinating person."

At some point you hit the nitrous button. Wind your way to the bedroom on the pretext of examining her wall art (posters, whatever). Glance at the closet. Point. Eyes widen.

"Ohhhh. What can we find in here?"

If the Gods smile upon you then she's going to physically put herself between you and the closet. You're the big, stupid dog that won't listen, right? She has to use all her force (kino) to stop you.

After that moment you get serious. You look her in the eye, you the hunter, she the prey, and say "distract me".

Of course most of this scenario is hypothetical. The details will vary but like all game it's up to you to take the fundamentals of manipulation and adapt to the circumstance as it evolves.

She brought you to her fortress as a subordinate. When you inverse the balance of power then attraction/submission will follow.

And remember. Better to be kicked out for being a wolf than be a dog and have your balls snipped. In social game a single loss can be devastating if a women subdues your sexuality. Any other women in that herd are not going to fuck a guy if Becky beat him down. On the other hand being kicked out is like getting disqualified. It's marked down as a loss but in truth nobody really knows who the better man was, and other contenders will still be eager to find out.

Post: #7

(06-15-2018 09:15 PM)Investment Bro Wrote:  Alright, so let's start this off with my favorite rallying cry: Attraction CANNOT be negotiated. It's either there, or it isn't.

So, taking a look at what you said here, I've drawn a few conclusions:

1: You have to watch your rationalization hamster, because it's running pretty hard right now. More on that in a minute, so please bare with me.

2: This girl had no intention of sleeping with you from the beginning, and is either not interested in you as you think (most likely), or a structured woman (less likely, but still possible).

3: Women do NOT think like men do. Reading your post as a man, and assuming it all to be true, her actions do not make logical sense. But, women are not logical.

Okay, so let's break this down, starting with her level of attraction which will help you to contextualize her actions. On a 1-10 scale, I'd say this girl was about a 5 for you. Not particularly crazy about you, but receptive enough to give you a shot. The margin for error on these types of women is thin.

By structured do you mean a girl that has some set rules (i.e. no sex until 3 dates)? The vibe I got that night was that she isn't structured but maybe from past experiences, shes bit more cautious now.

Quote:

(06-15-2018 01:52 PM)coffeedrinker Wrote:  Invited girl I know from social circle to watch a series thats currently very popular in young adults age. She countered with inviting me over at hers to watch it instead.

Obviously you're interested in banging this girl, so you basically hit her with the standard Netflix and Chill. Bad move. Women know EXACTLY what it means when you suggest they come over and watch a show. There's no mystery there. Women get off on mystery, and you're clearly signalling your intentions from the get go, which stomps on any sexual tension you could have built up.

I've made this mistake before with going direct for netflix and chill but in this case she had mentioned to me in person about doing that one day so I thought it wouldn't be a disdadvantage. Think thats failed me enough times so never doing that before the first bang anyway, no matter the situation.

Quote:With women that are 50/50 on their attraction to you, you don't want to make such an overt move like this. You want to maintain plausible deniability to get her rationalization hamster going. Without knowing your situation or logistics I would recommend a nighttime activity of some kind, with good logistics if it starts working well so you can take her back to your place. I personally take women with me on beach walks right near my condo. Adjust accordingly based on your situation.

So your girl sees through you that you're trying to bang, has a laugh with her friends, declines your invite and because it's better than being alone, invites you to her place. At this point, she's controlling the interaction. If she's in control, there's no mystery. If there's no mystery, her attraction isn't going to go up. Only downhill from there.

(06-15-2018 01:52 PM)coffeedrinker Wrote:  Went there and did the kino escalation and it was going smoothly

It was going smoothly because she knew she wasn't going to be sleeping with you. More to come.

I guess this is where being in her house makes it easier for her to 'decide' not to have sex and stick with it.

Quote:

(06-15-2018 01:52 PM)coffeedrinker Wrote:  Went for kiss about 45 mins in and then soon after few make outs, got her bra off etc but she stopped me each time I went for pants. Every time she said she liked me and didn't want to rush.

She's not lying in this case, she does like you, but not enough for you to get into her pants. Her raw attraction level wasn't high enough at the outset. You boost her attraction to you by combining kino, conversation and mystery. You got the kino part, which is big, but because you were watching a TV show instead of talking to her (more importantly, getting her to talk about herself), and she already knew what you were looking for by the venue choice?

Tbh the show encourages quite a lot of convos, many to do with attraction,personalities etc and we stopped it so many times just to discuss and tease what the other thinks of the situation. It wasn't silence or awkward at all.

100% agree on mystery though, definitely could have done a better job even after going for the obvious netflix and chill at her house.

Quote:

(06-15-2018 01:52 PM)coffeedrinker Wrote:  so took away my ability to just walk away due to LMR

Don't use booze as a crutch. Also, don't bail if she gives you LMR. Personally, I just ease off, and let her come to me if I get LMR. If she doesn't? No sweat, I make my exit when I want to. Same goes to you. Always be in control of yourself. If you aren't, then you've got no business with women until you are. Your chica knew this, and was probably giddy at the thought of getting cuddled without having to put out with someone that wasn't really doing it for her.

This happens to all of us when we're learning, so don't take it too hard! I've had my fair share of these moments.

By easing off, do you mean stop all making out etc? I was trying to do some of that but didn't really know how much to ease off so my 'lowest level' was making out.

Quote:

(06-15-2018 01:52 PM)coffeedrinker Wrote:  The next day after that, I invited her to mine but she replied she prefered to stay in that night but could do another day.

I understand she's leaving, but you pushed this a too hard. She already knows what you want, which is why she refused in the first place, but you went ahead and did it again. For a woman like this, back off for a bit, talk to other women, and then try to set something else up down the road that has plausible deniability. Don't invite her directly to your place, because her level of attraction isn't high enough for her to sleep with you yet.

I agree it was a mistake. I knew it was before I sent the txt but the fact she is leaving soon combined with that I have been txting 2 other girls that may have been up for doing something that day pushed me to send it anyway.

I also tried to rationalise her refusing sex as a case of not meeting enough times and thus the more times we meet up, the sooner she will agree. I guess in her eyes though, going direct to someone's house doesn't really count as it immediately sets out what I want like you said.

In retrospect, I should have invited her to go for drinks, or some other activity.

Quote:

(06-15-2018 01:52 PM)coffeedrinker Wrote:  lets assume that she doesn't and still wants to progress with me

Don't make assumptions. Stick to facts, and her actions. That's the only way your game will improve. Here are the facts:

1: She refused going to your place, but invited you to hers.
2: You encountered LMR
3: She refused your invite, but still left the possibility open of another.

This says that this girl is on the fence. She doesn't know if she wants to get to know you better or not. If you want her to be interested in a progression, she needs to feel your strength as a man, and not be able to immediately know your intentions. In this type of situation, back off and let her come at her own pace. If that's too slow, get more women. Getting more women is always the solution anyway.

I did not reply to her last text - I think i'll wait a few days and then ping her and see if she wants to go for drinks or something.

Quote:

(06-15-2018 01:52 PM)coffeedrinker Wrote:  so why not just enjoy what it is and also make the most of the time we are both free and have nothing going on

If you're looking at this as a man, it makes logical sense. Women do not operate logically. They operate based on emotions, which you trigger with masculine behavior, conversation, and unclear intentions. None of those were on display, so of course, her attraction didn't go up to the point where she would sleep with you.

(06-15-2018 01:52 PM)coffeedrinker Wrote:  What I guess I'm asking is, do girls purposefully avoid seeing someone they like in certain situations?

They don't. If a girl really likes you, she will move heaven and earth to see you. One of my current women will literally open her schedule and cancel her other plans any time I say I'm free and want to see her. Her friends predictably hate me.

Keep that in mind. If she likes you, she'll open up her schedule. The degree to which her schedule opens is very closely related to how much she likes you.

Quite like that correlation between opening up schedule and attraction.

Though I also realise now how many times I have though a girl may like me due to her way of texting but then not opening up her schedule. It's frustrating but guess I need to be more tactical and efficient in my texting game.

Quote:Okay my man, I've broken this entire thing down, so let's finish off with how you get better. First, don't take this criticism too hard. You've gotta make mistakes to get better.

Don't take women directly to your place until you know it's going down. They know what it means. Spend more time asking your woman questions, and getting information out of her. When she asks you questions, keep it fun and light. Tease her a bit, between light kino and humor in response to her questions.

If you're doing this right, her emotions will get going, and if she begins to associate you with positive emotions, her attraction will go up. Then you can amp up the kino and slay the poontang with no LMR.

This is a really basic overview. I would suggest picking up Roosh's required reading, doing some more approaches, and then expanding your horizons from there.

Best of luck OP!

Thank you for the detailed response!

(06-15-2018 10:21 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  Am I the only one thinking "demand a grand tour of the house then laughingly neg the fuck out her living space"?

That would be my salvage backup in this instance. You have time to mentally fortify yourself before you go in, so it might be her court but the ball's in your end of that court.

Social game, right? So you both know the same people and she's unwittingly placed herself in a position of vulnerability. She wants to court attention without putting out and she believes putting herself in a safe space allows her to call the shots.

"Holy fuck. Does anyone else know how messy your room is?!"

Bada bing. Bada boom. The balance of power shifts. You are now a secret keeper and she has to provide an incentive for that.

The game continues. "I watch these detective shows, and it's always so cool how they can tell all this stuff about people from the little details in their house."

If you can keep it light and fun (ie: more fun that a stupid TV show) then once you flip her "my house, my rules" sense of safety into "oh my God, I've opened myself to being totally revealed" then there's a solid chance she's going to do anything in order to drag your attention away.

Do this right and she'll start the kino herself dragging you away from shit she doesn't want you to dig into, even if it's something as benign as a DVD collection that she claims "all belong to my flatmate!"

"Ohhhhh. Riiight. Let's start building a psychological profile of 'your flatmate', eh?"

"What are you upset about. I'm taking an interest. It turns out you really are a fascinating person."

At some point you hit the nitrous button. Wind your way to the bedroom on the pretext of examining her wall art (posters, whatever). Glance at the closet. Point. Eyes widen.

"Ohhhh. What can we find in here?"

If the Gods smile upon you then she's going to physically put herself between you and the closet. You're the big, stupid dog that won't listen, right? She has to use all her force (kino) to stop you.

After that moment you get serious. You look her in the eye, you the hunter, she the prey, and say "distract me".

Of course most of this scenario is hypothetical. The details will vary but like all game it's up to you to take the fundamentals of manipulation and adapt to the circumstance as it evolves.

She brought you to her fortress as a subordinate. When you inverse the balance of power then attraction/submission will follow.

And remember. Better to be kicked out for being a wolf than be a dog and have your balls snipped. In social game a single loss can be devastating if a women subdues your sexuality. Any other women in that herd are not going to fuck a guy if Becky beat him down. On the other hand being kicked out is like getting disqualified. It's marked down as a loss but in truth nobody really knows who the better man was, and other contenders will still be eager to find out.

This is brilliant haha, I wish I had read this before going. I did do a tiny bit of that at the start as her kitchen was a mess but would have worked wonders if I did it in a similar way to what you suggested.

Cheers for advice, particularly the last paragraph. I do try to live by that kind of mentality but sometimes I don't even know what is the bold move. For example, I knew I wasn't going to get any closer to sex by going for a spoon but I had never actually spooned with a girl overnight (The 4 times I had sex before, it was either not in a bed or I/her left after) so I was curious lol.

Post: #8

(06-15-2018 01:52 PM)coffeedrinker Wrote:  Invited girl I know from social circle to watch a series thats currently very popular in young adults age. She countered with inviting me over at hers to watch it instead.

Went there and did the kino escalation and it was going smoothly ( she has given me indicators from before so she was quite receptive).

Went for kiss about 45 mins in and then soon after few make outs, got her bra off etc but she stopped me each time I went for pants. Every time she said she liked me and didn't want to rush. I tried few times to go back to making out and then fingering but couldn't get any further.

Cos I had more alcohol then I was comfortable with to drive, she was happy for me to stay the night and invited me to her bed to spoon.
I didn't actually drink much but enough to make me worry about drink-driving so took away my ability to just walk away due to LMR.

Apart from that, I think me trying to push-pull with fingering and dry was the only ideas I had to deal with LMR in that stage so would be nice to get some tips for this specific situation.

The next day after that, I invited her to mine but she replied she prefered to stay in that night but could do another day.

Which makes me wonder - why would a girl refuse to go and do something with a guy she likes if she has nothing on anyway?

Some clarifications:

I know that she may have other plans, changed her mind about me, may have something important the next day etc but lets assume that she doesn't and still wants to progress with me (it's end of university, 99.9% of students are gone and there really isn't much going on in town).

Also, she's leaving the country for the summer in a week's time which confuses me even more. There isn't enough time for anything serious to happen but if anything until this night she has been pushing this to happen more than I have so why not just enjoy what it is and also make the most of the time we are both free and have nothing going on.

What I guess I'm asking is, do girls purposefully avoid seeing someone they like in certain situations?

LMR:
How far you should try to take it really depends on so many factors. If she's a virgin and you haven't spent that many hours with her then you'd be shooting yourself in the foot to go for it too early if she's clearly not that comfortable. On the other hand, you would be leaving tons of money on the table to always give up right away if there's a good chance she's interested but just wants to create plausible deniability that she's an easy slut. If you think she's still on the fence about you and you haven't spent much time together sometimes it's best to keep things above the belt on the first date.

Point of no return:
If you finger bang a girl that wasn't quite ready for that level of escalation and you don't get it in, you run the risk of extinguishing the sexual tension and also creating a cloud of guilt and apprehension around seeing you again. It puts additional pressure and expectations on a future date. Often the play there is to pull back with the next date to something more innocent like coffee or an outdoor activity because if you just ask her to Netflix and chill then agreeing to a date will feel like signing a contract to get stuffed like a turkey.

Illogical?
Not really. Attraction is a lot more sensitive and nebulous for women since it depends on more emotional factors than just physical appearance. It's not illogical that a girl isn't sure she likes you enough to agree to the kind of date that has sexual expectations. Unfortunately you may have breached that "point of no return" where it can be very hard to get another date based on the precedent you set, especially for apartment dates. I would only invest more time with a "reset" date if you really like the girl and you're pretty confident you can turn it around.

Post: #9

(06-16-2018 10:48 AM)jcardial Wrote:  LMR:
How far you should try to take it really depends on so many factors. If she's a virgin and you haven't spent that many hours with her then you'd be shooting yourself in the foot to go for it too early if she's clearly not that comfortable. On the other hand, you would be leaving tons of money on the table to always give up right away if there's a good chance she's interested but just wants to create plausible deniability that she's an easy slut. If you think she's still on the fence about you and you haven't spent much time together sometimes it's best to keep things above the belt on the first date.

Point of no return:
If you finger bang a girl that wasn't quite ready for that level of escalation and you don't get it in, you run the risk of extinguishing the sexual tension and also creating a cloud of guilt and apprehension around seeing you again. It puts additional pressure and expectations on a future date. Often the play there is to pull back with the next date to something more innocent like coffee or an outdoor activity because if you just ask her to Netflix and chill then agreeing to a date will feel like signing a contract to get stuffed like a turkey.

Illogical?
Not really. Attraction is a lot more sensitive and nebulous for women since it depends on more emotional factors than just physical appearance. It's not illogical that a girl isn't sure she likes you enough to agree to the kind of date that has sexual expectations. Unfortunately you may have breached that "point of no return" where it can be very hard to get another date based on the precedent you set, especially for apartment dates. I would only invest more time with a "reset" date if you really like the girl and you're pretty confident you can turn it around.

LMR:
Doubt she's a virgin but she definitely had her guard up, probably as others have said going direct to her place.

Point of no return:
Took yours and other's advice here and went adventure golf with her. However, she told me she had planned going for dinner with a female friend of hers in the evening.

We went for a drink after and chat was funny etc but the seating arrangement was shit for much kino. If I know that nothing can happen, i.e. she's got something on later, I find it particularly hard to be seductive. I could feel it then that even though we were talking about interesting stuff and even putting few innuendos, I wasn't being the guy that would make her frustrated she had her dinner after.

She was happy to organise going for drinks again but I feel like I was already her boyfriend kinda theme. I want to learn how to come across as irresistible.

I'm currenty focusing on going gym, eating low carb diet (want abs), trying to start an online business while doing my degree and taking as many opportunities to meet girls as possible, expanding social circles etc but I still feel like my value as a fwb, 1ns, or LTR partner is low.

I've definitely had the vibe from some girls that they like me but I just can't capitalise on it by being alpha and seductive.

For example, I read Linux's quote on sexualising thread "Honestly, I think I like making love more that 99.9% of most people on this earth." and I thought it was brilliant, until I realised I would probably laugh more then the girl I was saying it to (because having only had sex few times, I couldn't keep up this kind of persona up for long).

Post: #10

This is a good thread and I have gone through few similar experiences.

To the OP, I agree with the advice given by the rest of the posters. It is just a little hard to execute, especially if you don't give physical attraction tingles from the get go. Some guys instantly give the girls that upon meeting and things move fast, ending up in ONS. If the sex is good then they get repeat business.

I am also trying to do the same. Goto gym, dress well, have positive energy during meeting the girl, stay cool and try to have solid frame. Its all easier said than done.

I want to ask the forum, how much should a guy let a girl control the situation? By control, I mean to say that even if she suggests something such as inviting over, should the guy always negate? I am facing issues reasoning what is beneficial to me and if what the girl says seems beneficial to me, I take it up. I do feel it gives the girl power but at the same time I gained. For example, instead of travelling 20 miles to a nice bar near the girls place, which I suggested, I goto a place 10 miles near me because the girl instead wanted to goto a bar there. I see that I save time and uber costs, so I agree with the girl. Does it shift the balance of power from the get go?

Then in regards to the idea of calling out girls when they are leading you and you aren't, I try to do it in a chilled way, teasing them and showing that I keep my cool. I feel this method doesn't work and it looks like a cheap sales trick. The girl just presses on.

So, is it alright to just say no bluntly to a girl who is trying to lead. Tell her almost directly its my way or the highway, even if you have not yet had sex?

And for average or not so good looking guys,who upon meeting the girls keep them on fence in terms of attraction, what frame should such guys maintain and what behavior would such guys have to show to start giving her tingles and push her to extreme attraction? So that the girl starts wanting it, becomes submissive and does not try to lead, dominate or dictate the situation?

Post: #11

I’ve been in this situation quite a few times before and I actually don’t make a big deal out of it. I always get the bang the next time. Your total screw up is playing this whole shit just before she travels AND you go to her place. After travelling (foreign cock riding) the girl’s brain resets and you become nonexistent.

Given your situation, either you push for the bang that night or you excuse yourself, get out of there and do a total reset when you meet her again.

I wonder what happened in the morning? So many players are in situation like yours but manage to get the bang in the morning.

For LMR remember the formula: escalate – freeze out – escalate – freeze out. Keep at it to the point where one of you break. If she breaks you get the bang. If she doesn’t she is a professional time waster so don’t let yourself be played.

Which goes back to your question about her “logic”. Delete that word, replaces it by “emotion”. Most girls are time wasters because they don’t know what they want, they are just following their emotion. She certainly likes you enough to invite you over, but you fail to ignite the tingle, reasons why other posters have already said.

Given that her emotion fluctuates, you should have either gone all in or waited for a better time to strike (or not strike at all). Next her mentally and see if she reconnects after her travels. If she gives you the same shit while she has been giving it away for free to all dem’ foreign cocks cut that shit out of your life.


@bk19xsa :

You want to think logistics. Logistics = everything these days given the dating scene.
Your success = (Attraction + Comfort) x logistics

In your example clearly you take the girl’s offer of going to the place near you. Some may see this as losing frame, I just think it’s better logistics. Even so once there it’s very easy to reframe your interaction during your conversation and by venue changing (to your place eventually)

However if the girl turns out to just be too dominant or annoying, either she's a bitch or your game isn't strong enough to take frame. Don't waste your time.

Post: #12

(06-18-2018 10:28 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  I’ve been in this situation quite a few times before and I actually don’t make a big deal out of it. I always get the bang the next time. Your total screw up is playing this whole shit just before she travels AND you go to her place. After travelling (foreign cock riding) the girl’s brain resets and you become nonexistent.

Given your situation, either you push for the bang that night or you excuse yourself, get out of there and do a total reset when you meet her again.

I wonder what happened in the morning? So many players are in situation like yours but manage to get the bang in the morning.

For LMR remember the formula: escalate – freeze out – escalate – freeze out. Keep at it to the point where one of you break. If she breaks you get the bang. If she doesn’t she is a professional time waster so don’t let yourself be played.

Which goes back to your question about her “logic”. Delete that word, replaces it by “emotion”. Most girls are time wasters because they don’t know what they want, they are just following their emotion. She certainly likes you enough to invite you over, but you fail to ignite the tingle, reasons why other posters have already said.

Given that her emotion fluctuates, you should have either gone all in or waited for a better time to strike (or not strike at all). Next her mentally and see if she reconnects after her travels. If she gives you the same shit while she has been giving it away for free to all dem’ foreign cocks cut that shit out of your life.


@bk19xsa :

You want to think logistics. Logistics = everything these days given the dating scene.
Your success = (Attraction + Comfort) x logistics

In your example clearly you take the girl’s offer of going to the place near you. Some may see this as losing frame, I just think it’s better logistics. Even so once there it’s very easy to reframe your interaction during your conversation and by venue changing (to your place eventually)

However if the girl turns out to just be too dominant or annoying, either she's a bitch or your game isn't strong enough to take frame. Don't waste your time.

Morning I had no chance of game. Woken up by landlord and plumbers and then she had planned something with a friend.

Re-thinking it now - I probably could have sealed the deal at night. Like, she took off my jeans just before we got to bed but then didn't do anything. I could have pushed a bit more but whenever I tried, she was clearly saying no and I rather stay on the safe side

Post: #13

(06-18-2018 04:41 PM)coffeedrinker Wrote:  Like, she took off my jeans just before we got to bed but then didn't do anything. I could have pushed a bit more but whenever I tried, she was clearly saying no and I rather stay on the safe side

You definitely should have pushed. I find that situations like this it helps to play the romantic. Get to bed/spooning position with her and ask her to take her pants off. When she objects says some chick flick stuff like "I want to feel your skin against me". Escalation pairs with "gradual". Get her pants off, put your hands on her boobs. When she objects says "I just want to hold you, wont do anything, promise " Then starts brushing up against her. You get the idea. Keep pushing and freezing out. There's a treasure out there in combating LMR, go read up.

I get the whole metoo thing but if this chick is in your social circle and you are just a nobody the risk is low. Her job is to say no and yours is to push. If she says no but she's still there that means it's "not yet". If she really doesn't want it she WILL tell you to leave. Women are fucking ruthless to men they don't like. If you can't bang her that night you prolly wont bang her anyway so nothing to lose.

This is a very common situation in gaming btw so next time it happens be sure you know what to do. Your place + alcohol + good music. Chalk this one to the game and learn.

Post: #14

(06-18-2018 06:53 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

(06-18-2018 04:41 PM)coffeedrinker Wrote:  Like, she took off my jeans just before we got to bed but then didn't do anything. I could have pushed a bit more but whenever I tried, she was clearly saying no and I rather stay on the safe side

You definitely should have pushed. I find that situations like this it helps to play the romantic. Get to bed/spooning position with her and ask her to take her pants off. When she objects says some chick flick stuff like "I want to feel your skin against me". Escalation pairs with "gradual". Get her pants off, put your hands on her boobs. When she objects says "I just want to hold you, wont do anything, promise " Then starts brushing up against her. You get the idea. Keep pushing and freezing out. There's a treasure out there in combating LMR, go read up.

I get the whole metoo thing but if this chick is in your social circle and you are just a nobody the risk is low. Her job is to say no and yours is to push. If she says no but she's still there that means it's "not yet". If she really doesn't want it she WILL tell you to leave. Women are fucking ruthless to men they don't like. If you can't bang her that night you prolly wont bang her anyway so nothing to lose.

This is a very common situation in gaming btw so next time it happens be sure you know what to do. Your place + alcohol + good music. Chalk this one to the game and learn.

I understand what you mean and I'll definitely try to more LMR tactics next time it happens. I really just need to be bringing girls back couple of times a week rather than few times if not less a month so that I accelerate my experiences.

Post: #15

I always tell girls that I'll be rocking a boner all night if I try to sleep in the bed with them. I tell them that I'll need at least a blowjob or we won't be able to share a bed.

Post: #16

(06-19-2018 04:32 AM)Suits Wrote:  I always tell girls that I'll be rocking a boner all night if I try to sleep in the bed with them. I tell them that I'll need at least a blowjob or we won't be able to share a bed.

How has that played out for you?

Post: #17

(06-19-2018 01:16 PM)questor70 Wrote:  

(06-19-2018 04:32 AM)Suits Wrote:  I always tell girls that I'll be rocking a boner all night if I try to sleep in the bed with them. I tell them that I'll need at least a blowjob or we won't be able to share a bed.

How has that played out for you?

It usually ends with a dick getting sucked.

Post: #18

(06-15-2018 01:52 PM)coffeedrinker Wrote:  What I guess I'm asking is, do girls purposefully avoid seeing someone they like in certain situations?

Honestly, she probably does like you. It's happened to me many times when girls put the brakes on and it's completely normal if this was a social circle chick. It's a good sign. It's a risk for her to do anything with you so soon. Just chill out. Put a little bit of time in. Not too much time. 5 dates is my cap. Don't push for non-sex sexual shit either in the interim because that will ruin the vibe. It's gotta build up to the full on thing.

Post: #19

(06-20-2018 11:59 PM)FullThrottleTX Wrote:  

(06-15-2018 01:52 PM)coffeedrinker Wrote:  What I guess I'm asking is, do girls purposefully avoid seeing someone they like in certain situations?

Honestly, she probably does like you. It's happened to me many times when girls put the brakes on and it's completely normal if this was a social circle chick. It's a good sign. It's a risk for her to do anything with you so soon. Just chill out. Put a little bit of time in. Not too much time. 5 dates is my cap. Don't push for non-sex sexual shit either in the interim because that will ruin the vibe. It's gotta build up to the full on thing.

After I went on golf date, she told me she was free in the evening 2 days later and I told her I would think of something and let her know on the day.

Msged her when the day came and she said she was having another dinner with a friend but could do something till 6pm.

I told her to enjoy her dinner as I don't like rushed meet-ups.

She just replied: " I understand, I'm sorry"

Two days later she hasn't msged anything else and as she leaves on sunday, I think I'm not gonna msg her anymore.

Then again, its very unlikely I'll see her again so may give one last try. Usually I would be more careful in social circles, but I'm doing a longer course and all of them graduate, so probably won't come back to haunt me.

Post: #20

(06-21-2018 05:27 AM)coffeedrinker Wrote:  

(06-20-2018 11:59 PM)FullThrottleTX Wrote:  

(06-15-2018 01:52 PM)coffeedrinker Wrote:  What I guess I'm asking is, do girls purposefully avoid seeing someone they like in certain situations?

Honestly, she probably does like you. It's happened to me many times when girls put the brakes on and it's completely normal if this was a social circle chick. It's a good sign. It's a risk for her to do anything with you so soon. Just chill out. Put a little bit of time in. Not too much time. 5 dates is my cap. Don't push for non-sex sexual shit either in the interim because that will ruin the vibe. It's gotta build up to the full on thing.

After I went on golf date, she told me she was free in the evening 2 days later and I told her I would think of something and let her know on the day.

Msged her when the day came and she said she was having another dinner with a friend but could do something till 6pm.

I told her to enjoy her dinner as I don't like rushed meet-ups.

She just replied: " I understand, I'm sorry"

Two days later she hasn't msged anything else and as she leaves on sunday, I think I'm not gonna msg her anymore.

Then again, its very unlikely I'll see her again so may give one last try. Usually I would be more careful in social circles, but I'm doing a longer course and all of them graduate, so probably won't come back to haunt me.

It sounds like you're not very spontaneous.
You've gotta move faster with less deliberation. Who cares what you do for a date... Don't overthink it. When you said, "I'll think of something to do..." more or less you were signaling hesitation.

You can have back-to-back dates, there is no rule you need to follow that says, wait 2 days and text her back with a plan.

Have date ideas in your head that can be executed at a moments notice, don't put yourself in a position to have to think about it.

Post: #21

(06-21-2018 12:00 PM)FullThrottleTX Wrote:  It sounds like you're not very spontaneous.
You've gotta move faster with less deliberation. Who cares what you do for a date... Don't overthink it. When you said, "I'll think of something to do..." more or less you were signaling hesitation.

You can have back-to-back dates, there is no rule you need to follow that says, wait 2 days and text her back with a plan.

Have date ideas in your head that can be executed at a moments notice, don't put yourself in a position to have to think about it.

The truth is I had the idea already, I knew a nice cosy bar that's perfect for bringing girls (great vibe, great service, and perfect seating for kino escalation) but for whatever reason thought it would be better to tell her the plan on the day. Didn't think she would book herself to do something else given that she suggested that day.


I require the advice of the gurus again though. So I pinged her and she assumed that I invited her for drinks that night, but she suggested the day after as she was busy. I agreed and made a silly joke about her flaking again which she saw but did not reply.

Today, I thought that she probably doesn't actually want to see me, so to save both of us time I decided if she didn't msg me about plans I would leave it. She did msg me asking about plans however, so I set up drinks at the bar mentioned.

At the bar, I did my best ever date performance:
- Kino escalation
- Cut her up when she started talking about boring stuff / asking for sympathy / friend type convo and she enjoyed me moving the convo

- She genuinely was really interested and even giving me way too many compliments for explaining some of the things I was trying to do for Business. - I showed a lot of value here because while the stuff I'm trying are simple, I can explain it so clearly and logically that it makes me seem like a genius.

-Kept in frame when she started sharing an 'embarrasing story' and then wouldn't tell me the end of it. Told her in serious voice, if you can't trust me after teasing me the story so far, then I'm leaving. She finished the story (which wasnt embarrasing at all, so I told her she shouldn't give a f which she liked as others had apparently judged her for it)

-Only major mistake I can think of was that I couldn't move on after the end of 1st round. I was planning to, but we finished them so quickly that I had hardly spoken given the stories she was saying and pussied out.
Unfortunately, as the bar got more busy, it took forever for them to bring us the 2nd drinks so by the time we finished them it was a bit late.

My seed for plausable deniability was to show her pictures of a product I had ordered from china that was only available on my laptop due to some crap I made up. It's a female targeted product so she was interested in what it looked like.
When leaving, I said lets go out for a walk then 'spontaneously' said 'hey lets go back home, I can show you the product'.

Her reply was: I can't, gotta wake up early tomorrow for some temp voluntary work and packing, good excuse to get me back though.

From then on I was gone, frame destroyed, no idea what to do next and did a lot of cringy stuff.

First I tried to play down her remark 'good excuse, what do you think I'm trying to do here?'

Then I told her, lets walk to this park (2 mins away and quite nice chill spot). There she shows me some videos of her performing music and it's nice setting. But I'm lost trying to figure out what to do, so I wait a bit and then go for
'It's Friday, I know you got work but you can't be going to sleep at 11pm, lets grab another drink at mine and then I'll get you a cab home'
This was desparation talk and knew it wasnt gonna work but couldnt think of anything else.

She declined. Attempt 3 was me just saying, lets get out of this park and then started walking towards my house rather then hers but nope.

Decided to walk her home as I think part of her resistance was that she didn't realise my flatmates were gone (I had told her before, but she must have forgotten as she was surprised when she found out).

On way there we held hands and I continued kino and she was receptive etc, even encouraged it. When we got there, she tried to initiate making out but I pulled away. Though that I may as well practise my self control as she was adamant she wouldn't let me in.

Anyway I should have just left straight away but lingered and she told me some relationship stuff like, she would be back in the country at x and y and blah blah. I was like, yeah we just not gonna see each other again if we are honest.

My question is, what's the plan of action if a girl rejects your invite to go back to yours but it isn't really the end of the date?

And also, what is with her giving me endless compliments, being interested, her herself doing kino every time we meet but then making it hard to see her again. She doesn't have to do any of this random stuff she has been doing for the past week and could have easily cancelled if she wanted to. Then she talks about seeing her months in the future and getting upset when I told her realistically, it's not gonna work...