Post: #1

I first started online dating in 2009. Back then, I had a witty profile on POF and would engage women with witty messages. Pics weren't a dealbreaker.

Women would exchange flirtatious texts constantly even before meeting them. Dates were easy to get. There was far less flaking and ghosting.

Now, pics are everything. There's far less emphasis on one's profile and message content, and far more emphasis on pictures. If she doesn't like your pictures, she won't write you back.

How did things change so quickly?

Back then, social media was still in its infancy. Facebook had just opened to the masses and Instagram didn't exist.

Today, women are more looks focused due to the explosion of visual social media like Facebook, Instagram and Snapchat.

Back then, there were no smartphone apps like Tinder and Bumble giving women immediate access to hot guys they never would have had access to before.

Today, women have men messaging them constantly, unencumbered by the fear of rejection that comes with approaching women in person.

As a result, the looks bar for men to attract women has gone way up today in the real world. If you don't meet her looks bar, women are "swiping left" to you in their mind when you approach them, regardless of what comes out of your mouth. And the looks bar for men has been raised higher than ever before.

Thoughts?

Post: #2

^ I think maybe it raises the bar in real life, but not necessarily in the looks department. Girls now want to be impressed with a 'lifestyle' man who has stuff going for him because they can always go to the apps for a 'regular' attractive guy.

Post: #3

Nope, the member here called DigitalNomad is not handsome (no offense bro). He's not tall, he's not ripped. But his stories are confirmed by Vinny. And he's balling bigger than 95% of dudes here because he's impressive in the other ways.

Tinder attracts a particular type of shallow retard girl (one of them recently went into detail on a date about how good she thought my face was, and then compared my physical attributes to other men). Frankly I fucking hate Tinder and the women it attracts now).

So don't compete on looks on Tinder with the air-headed spastics. Use other avenues for meeting girls and bring the other stuff to the table.

Post: #4

Internet dating is more socially acceptable right now and more popular than 8 years ago. Back then women put up their profile because they were genuinely looking to meet someone and less for attention whoring. I don't know the statistics but I bet the vast majority on Tinder don't go on any dates, they just like to check the waters and see what kind of guys would chase them.

Post: #5

(06-24-2017 03:16 PM)Pointer Wrote:  Internet dating is more socially acceptable right now and more popular than 8 years ago. Back then women put up their profile because they were genuinely looking to meet someone and less for attention whoring. I don't know the statistics but I bet the vast majority on Tinder don't go on any dates, they just like to check the waters and see what kind of guys would chase them.

First, let's establish that online dating sites have always involved pictures. And physical attraction has always been, without equivocation, an integral part of dating for a vast majority of people.

But within the online dating world, there has been a paradigm shift in the number of people willing to try it. That is, it has increased in popularity and decreased in negative stigmatization. If you were doing the online dating thing 10 years ago, or even 5 years ago, there's a strong chance that the community consisted of more people who were similar in appearance and/or mindset - they were people who didn't have as many options for meeting people, going to bars, going to clubs, etc. The online dating world made it easier to connect with people, and in turn, they seemed more eager to connect.

But there was a caveat: there weren't that many people in the community. There were enough for some connections, and there was a moderate influx of new people now and then, but it's not like it was a whole world of constantly new faces.

So what changed? When online dating became increasingly popular, you had more people using it. That means more types of people, including the people who were already involved in the dating scene in other avenues, along with... well, seemingly just about everyone.

The result is double-edged sword: you have a much bigger pool of potential people to connect with, but you also have to do more searching and sifting. Considering that men are still stereotyped with the task of being the initiator (this is luckily changing a bit, but it's still a gender norm), you are presumably seeing all sorts of women who you are messaging, swiping right, etc. But due to the quantity and diversity of people now using these sites/apps, a smaller percentage of them will actually be interested in you. That's not an insult to you or anyone; it's just how it works, statistically.

Essentially, what I'm trying to say is that online dating has more closely approximated the offline world: you can't expect a large percentage of everyone you meet to be interested in you; you just have to find those who are.

You're now encountering more people who have higher standards, because now those people are using online dating. The types of people whom you originally could connect with 5-10 years ago are still there, and they too have grown in number, but they make up a small piece of the overall pie, so you just have to do a little more digging to find them.

Part of that is learning to navigate the apps, but I'll admit part of it is also trial & error. But as long as you don't take rejection personally (you really can't afford to), and are willing to wade through the silence until you hear back from those would-be connections, there's no reason why you can't have the same success as before.

Post: #6

I dont think it has raised the bar in REAL LIFE.

Online yes in real life no. Competition online has never been fiercer than now IMO. Attractive pictures and showing off your lifestyle are everything now.

However, as long as you got decent looks and tight game in real life you will ALWAYS do well. I really don't think that will ever change. There will always be girls receptive to meeting guys in nightclubs and bars. Maybe less than before but they will always be there.

Post: #7

(06-24-2017 03:45 PM)kirdiesel Wrote:  I dont think it has raised the bar in REAL LIFE.

Online yes in real life no. Competition online has never been fiercer than now IMO. Attractive pictures and showing off your lifestyle are everything now.

However, as long as you got decent looks and tight game in real life you will ALWAYS do well. I really don't think that will ever change. There will always be girls receptive to meeting guys in nightclubs and bars. Maybe less than before but they will always be there.

Seduction is based on the exploitation of inefficiencies: guys don't approach enough, so an 8-9 can't get her equal, because her equal doesn't have the balls / gumption / resolve to approach her. So she goes with the less attractive guy who did.

Inefficiency presented opportunities for us less attractive guys to get laid far above our level of attractiveness, both qualitatively and quantitatively.

Online makes the dating market efficient, so the girl above doesn't have to settle for a less attractive guy. She can have her pick of guys at her own attraction level, or even higher if she is willing to settle for pure sex - which is exactly what most of us are after.

Post: #8

The looks bar has raised in men in the western world not because of Tinder but due to the entire skew of the sexual market place.

Unlike less developed nations, in the western world, almost all material needs and comforts for basic survival are provided for. Women don't need men to protect them or provide for them in the western world. They can get a corporate job and even if they're complete losers they can just get money from the government. Hell even when women leave their men they get either child support or alimony for YEARS. In California if you're married for 12+ years you can be on the hook for alimony FOR LIFE. You are literally your ex-wife's slave until the day you DIE.

In this modern society where culture and society promotes feminism and equality and material needs are provided by either a corporation through her salary/benefits or the government through welfare, women no longer need to select men for anything other than what gets their pussy wet.

Online dating is only a part of the equation. Women have SO MANY OPTIONS and SO LITTLE CONSEQUENCES for choosing the wrong man, that western women can do whatever the fuck they want. Get pregnant by some idiot? No problem get child support and welfare and then go on Facebook and get empowered for being such a strong independent single mother. Single motherhood used to be shameful. Now it's CELEBRATED.

Since society enables women to do whatever the fuck they want and constantly belittles men for even expressing their sexuality, the sexual marketplace has become totally fucked. Women make it seem like persecution if a man suggest they shouldn't be a slut. Men meanwhile, are told Yes means Yes, having casual sex is exploitative, and that even approaching a woman without her consent is a crime against humanity.

Western life is too easy for women and the perfect storm of government/corporate power, feminism, relative luxury, constant social conditioning by the idiot box, and endless temptation with zero consequences for women, the inmates are now running the asylum. The harsher the environment, the stronger the patriarchy. We have swung the pendulum and are out of balance with feminine freedom of choice in a way that defies Natural Law.

So now, women have the luxury to choose men purely based on tingles and bad boy traits. Hence why in the western world there are basically only two game options. Clown game - where you simply perform and go through the motions to control her emotions and tingles, and psychopath game, where you have to act like you don't even like her and can't show any hints of being even a normal nice person who treats strangers well. You have to act like a psychopath lest she puts you in the friendzone or orbiter range.

This already started happening in the black community 2 decades ago, since they had a headstart on the welfare, feminism, and single motherhood. In my experience, black women select FAR HARSHER on looks/height than their white, asian, and latina counterparts. They also tend to have kids with losers more, take more welfare/child support, be in the worse shape, be the most entitled, and have the most STDs. Black women are very unforgiving on looks in my experience and are the first ones to demand a man to be 6'2" or a pretty boy. They literally want their men to look better than they do. They're the only race of women who I've heard constantly talk about, profess, and fantasize about how they want their kids to look down to eye color, skin tone, and hair type. They'll fuck a gangster who has 2 kids by 3 different women and just got out of prison 2 weeks ago as long as he has the look they really want. Meanwhile a guy who has a regular job and is average looking is not only ignored by them, they'll even actively make fun of him for being lame and publically denigrate him in front of their friends if he approaches them. These are extreme but observable examples/trends and they're a microcosm of what is now beginning to touch on mainstream America. Coming soon to a middle class neighborhood near you.

Enjoy the decline boy-o's

Post: #9

(06-24-2017 03:50 PM)GymBro Wrote:  

(06-24-2017 03:45 PM)kirdiesel Wrote:  I dont think it has raised the bar in REAL LIFE.

Online yes in real life no. Competition online has never been fiercer than now IMO. Attractive pictures and showing off your lifestyle are everything now.

However, as long as you got decent looks and tight game in real life you will ALWAYS do well. I really don't think that will ever change. There will always be girls receptive to meeting guys in nightclubs and bars. Maybe less than before but they will always be there.

Seduction is based on the exploitation of inefficiencies: guys don't approach enough, so an 8-9 can't get her equal, because her equal doesn't have the balls / gumption / resolve to approach her. So she goes with the less attractive guy who did.

Inefficiency presented opportunities for us less attractive guys to get laid far above our level of attractiveness, both qualitatively and quantitatively.

Online makes the dating market efficient, so the girl above doesn't have to settle for a less attractive guy. She can have her pick of guys at her own attraction level, or even higher if she is willing to settle for pure sex - which is exactly what most of us are after.

Kanye is it you ?!
You came with your own definition of Seduction and then made conclusion about it...
I didn't even get the idea you tried to explain but damn it's weel written

Post: #10

(06-24-2017 04:21 PM)blck Wrote:  

(06-24-2017 03:50 PM)GymBro Wrote:  

(06-24-2017 03:45 PM)kirdiesel Wrote:  I dont think it has raised the bar in REAL LIFE.

Online yes in real life no. Competition online has never been fiercer than now IMO. Attractive pictures and showing off your lifestyle are everything now.

However, as long as you got decent looks and tight game in real life you will ALWAYS do well. I really don't think that will ever change. There will always be girls receptive to meeting guys in nightclubs and bars. Maybe less than before but they will always be there.

Seduction is based on the exploitation of inefficiencies: guys don't approach enough, so an 8-9 can't get her equal, because her equal doesn't have the balls / gumption / resolve to approach her. So she goes with the less attractive guy who did.

Inefficiency presented opportunities for us less attractive guys to get laid far above our level of attractiveness, both qualitatively and quantitatively.

Online makes the dating market efficient, so the girl above doesn't have to settle for a less attractive guy. She can have her pick of guys at her own attraction level, or even higher if she is willing to settle for pure sex - which is exactly what most of us are after.

Kanye is it you ?!
You came with your own definition of Seduction and then made conclusion about it...
I didn't even get the idea you tried to explain but damn it's weel written

Gymbro you've got the game well wrong. Women don't want to win, they don't want their equals, they want men better than them, they want winners.

Other than that you have made several bad assumptions.
1) women don't know what they want their pussy does. If you learn game you learn to know what their pussy wants.
2) A woman wants a man better than her and better is a relative term. We see ugly ass dudes with hot girls because the guy knows he's better than her and the girl believes it too whether its financially, sexually, socially, family etc.
3) If you believe that you are getting laid "far above your level" you're going to have some problems. Thats like the phrase when a couple is engaged "lucky man" FUCK THAT SHIT. No luck was involved, dude had tight game, knew what her pussy wanted and gave it to her.

4) Online makes the dating market WILDLY inefficient. Its harder for women to filter out quality men (for relationships). At the end of the day you have to remember that we are dealing with a womans fellings/lizard brain/subconcious when trying to fuck them. Online it is harder for a woman to uses these skills and they can be tricked (for better or for worse) into making decisions that ultimately produce quick highs with deep troughs of dissatisfaction.


Women want attention and this can be satisfied with a quick profile and a photo. This causes the threshold/barrier of entry to gaming girls to be extremely high because she is getting her attention needs met via iPhone on demand--She no longer has to go out and make her self available to the wolves. Whether or not women know they crave attention is irrelevant but the fact that it is like a fiends quick high is relevant:

She can get "her rocks off" by looking and seeing her notifications--doesnt need real male interaction
She seeks real male interaction from her iPhone--meets a lame and is disappointed or a player and gets pumped and dumped
After being pumped and dumped she returns to her iPhone to repeat the cycle

You end up with these girls in these slopes of sadness what find themselves unsatisfied because of the quick highs notifications are giving her and the subconscious fact that she can't find a dude thats not lame or that wants to keep her around. When you consider the fact that all a woman wants is a man to manage her crazy ass in the long term you realize....

Real talk this has totally fucked the game up.

edit:
I just thought of this: online dating is like porn for men. You can get it on demand anytime, it feels great, its a quick endorphin flood, and it causes you to loose interest in actively pressing new leads. If women aren't persuing new males or making themselves available and interested in new mates then no one can win.

double edit: To answer your question yes it has.

Post: #11

(06-24-2017 03:11 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  Nope, the member here called DigitalNomad is not handsome (no offense bro). He's not tall, he's not ripped. But his stories are confirmed by Vinny. And he's balling bigger than 95% of dudes here because he's impressive in the other ways.

Tinder attracts a particular type of shallow retard girl (one of them recently went into detail on a date about how good she thought my face was, and then compared my physical attributes to other men). Frankly I fucking hate Tinder and the women it attracts now).

So don't compete on looks on Tinder with the air-headed spastics. Use other avenues for meeting girls and bring the other stuff to the table.

mmm have you met him? maybe you're underrating him
I find it hard to believe somebody can get all those ONS with 7s and 8s without being at least above average in looks

Post: #12

Of course looks are huge in dating, off or online.

But if you aren't a 8+ male, and you still want to get laid, then you better fucking learn A grade game.

Post: #13

Guys complain women get too many attentions from guys online.
Women complain guys hit on any bangable chicks left and right online.

It is just an Amplification of real life for both side

Post: #14

(06-24-2017 08:11 PM)Sebastian Wrote:  Guys complain women get too many attentions from guys online.
Women complain guys hit on any bangable chicks left and right online.

It is just an Amplification of real life for both side

Exactly. Online game is just a hyper version of real life dating dynamics.

Which is why 90% of men should avoid online. Women already wield an uneven amount of power in dating. Online just multiplies this.

Online dating, and social media in general like facebook/snapchat/instagram are for WOMEN. They're validation/attention machines for women. They're like porn for women. They wield way too much power online when it comes to attention. So why play their game?

I avoid most forms of social media.

Post: #15

No I didnt say that.
If you are thinking majority of men shouldnt do online dating, then the same applies to going out at night. (Dont go out if you are fugly ass 7 and down)

Are you thinking you are just giving them a validation (confidence boost) by sending a message to a chick online? Then what about talking to them in real life? Why talk to them to give them validations and get shot down??

What guys can do as a male is sending out multiple messages like flyers with no emotions attached. Girls do not do that biologically.

I dont know why guys keep saying you gotta be in top class to do online game and stuff.
'Hey i think im 7 (like every guy thinks) but its not working out for me. So dont do it unless you are 8 and up' is that what it is?

Post: #16

(06-24-2017 09:35 PM)Sebastian Wrote:  No I didnt say that.
If you are thinking majority of men shouldnt do online dating, then the same applies to going out at night. (Dont go out if you are fugly ass 7 and down)

Are you thinking you are just giving them a validation (confidence boost) by sending a message to a chick online? Then what about talking to them in real life? Why talk to them to give them validations and get shot down??

What guys can do as a male is sending out multiple messages like flyers with no emotions attached. Girls do not do that biologically.

I dont know why guys keep saying you gotta be in top class to do online game and stuff.
'Hey i think im 7 (like every guy thinks) but its not working out for me. So dont do it unless you are 8 and up' is that what it is?

No online game amplifies all the worst parts of the sexual market place. It AMPLIFIES it. I get rejected by fatties online when in real life I can get 6s and 7s.

So why the fuck would I online date when I get worse quality of women and so much flaking and time wasting?

And yes lots of night game does suck for average guys. It's a constant battle and war even for guys with game not just the women but competition and what not.

That being said real life game is better because there's less time wasting, women are less picky, you have a chance to use charisma and presence and game. Online many guys don't even have a CHANCE to spit game cuz they get disqualified by their looks. The reason I don't do online game is not cuz it gives them validation. It's cuz it's NOT EFFECTIVE for me. Yet in real life I'm able to get with women.

So yes I stand by my statement online game AMPLIFIES all the worst aspects of the sexual market place.

Post: #17

Im sure you will get rejected by fatties in real life too.

Why do you send out the messages if you are going to get hurt?
Sure the return ratio is very little but you also dont have to talk to them face to face.

whatever works for you, it is your life.
Everybody has their strong grounds.

I just dont understand guys talking like 'hey im pretty decent guy but i failed at this so you shouldnt do it unless you are blessed with genes and money'

Like I said, it Amplifies for both men and women. Men can send out Flyers so easily and womens mail box is filled with bunch of guys including regular guys to guys she wouldnt even look at. They all probably just want to fuck her too.

Im saying this because some guys think Online thing is just good for women. Ask women if they will agree.

Post: #18

(06-24-2017 10:55 PM)Sebastian Wrote:  Im sure you will get rejected by fatties in real life too.

Why do you send out the messages if you are going to get hurt?
Sure the return ratio is very little but you also dont have to talk to them face to face.

whatever works for you, it is your life.
Everybody has their strong grounds.

I just dont understand guys talking like 'hey im pretty decent guy but i failed at this so you shouldnt do it unless you are blessed with genes and money'

Like I said, it Amplifies for both men and women. Men can send out Flyers so easily and womens mail box is filled with bunch of guys including regular guys to guys she wouldnt even look at. They all probably just want to fuck her too.

Im saying this because some guys think Online thing is just good for women. Ask women if they will agree.

Well I've commented on this in other threads. If online games works for YOU then don't stop doing it. God bless you.

My SUGGESTION is to focus on real life game and forget about online unless you have the genetics/status to make online easy for pulling quality.

In my experience, online dating has always been a waste of time.

Also why the hell do you keep making comments like I think I am "just giving them validation" and "why do you send a message if you will get hurt". That has NOTHING to do with why I don't do online game. I don't do online gaming cuz it's not worth it to me, not because I'm "hurt" or worried about "giving validation". Nonsense.

I don't do online game cuz it's INEFFECTIVE and a WASTE OF TIME. Why would I waste my time on shit that doesn't work when I have a system that does work?

In my experience, quality and quantity suffer when I waste time online dating. I get more frequent and better quality bangs just approaching in real life. And especially for most black men in America I don't think online dating is as good as it is for white guys for men with average genetics.

I can only talk about general trends and observations I've observed I can't speak about anecdotal evidence of that "one friend" every player has that's ugly and gets pussy from online. I'm not seeing this guy in droves.

If online dating is so good for men then why isn't it reflected in the real sexual market place? Where are all the average guys with decent looking women and girlfriends and lays that they're getting from online dating? Where is this magical place that exists where average men are getting consistent and quality bangs from online game?

So I still stand by statement. Online dating amplifies the worst aspects of the real sexual market place. I don't care what women do or don't agree too when it comes to dating. When dating is going good for women it means they're getting tons of attention and resources from all the men they want while giving minimal pussy. When dating is difficult for women it means they have to compete for men's commitment and that they are forced to give up sex more easily in hopes of keeping a man.

EG: Atlanta, if you ask women about dating in Atlanta they'll say it's difficult and it sucks but if you ask the men they'll say it's very easy to date. So when women say a place is good for dating that's a fucking bad thing! Not a good thing!! When women say a place is bad for dating, it's a good thing! It means the dating is in favor of the men!

Post: #19

Nope, not in real life.

Post: #20

An attractive girl gets so many matches on her dating apps she can't even sift through them.

I challenge you to create an attractive girlie profile, gps yourself practically in any urban center in the world that has internet and wait one hour. Then go back to the app and swipe right the men that appear in front of you.

You should be getting about 50 matches per hour. Many of these men will also initiate a conversation.

If you're a decent guy and approach well in real life, you stand out above all this almost instantly. Merely by the action you took, which says a ton about you.

That is of course, assuming that you do it well (got game) and carry yourself well, and assuming that the girl you approach is a desirable person (isn't blue haired etc).

If you regard dating apps as a mirror for real life, you'll be very miserable. It's a sleazy shortcut and therefore creates a twisted reality, for those who choose to live in it.

This applies to girls too by the way. 1200 matches every 24 hours does not make a girl happy. It makes her a sinister person.

A basic rule of thumb for life (not just for dating), is "if everyone does it, you shouldn't", as opposed to "me too". If everyone does it, you're too late for the good stuff.

Post: #21

First off, it has ALWAYS been that way to some extent and far more so than people think. OKC even found that the brand of camera used can have a significant impact.

Don't bitch about it. Use it your advantage and get a professional photo shoot done (tell them you need some professional pictures for your business bio) and if you don't know photo editing get someone who does to tweak them for optimal lighting. I did that back in the day and the result was noticeable.

I would also take issue with the assertion that internet dating is "worthless". The first reason is that it's so low effort. Think of it as being like your side hustle that generates a passive lady stream. There's plenty of guys out there who can pull on them.

If you want something more useful then get your ass off the mainstream meetup apps/sites. You want sites that have a high barrier to entry. There are any number of religious sites out there and I had great results using those. Sign up, write a good profile( any number of good guides out there), and then set up your search so you are screening HARD on doctrine questions. Even the slightest disagreement with the religions rules is a huge red flag. It means that they think they're special enough that the rules shouldn't apply to them if they don't feel like it and that WILL bite you in the ass. If I'm going to seriously consider a woman for child rearing that means both of us need to agree to baseline rules for the relationship and are entitled to expect 100% compliance. Patriarchy FTW.

Post: #22

I also should add why this tends to work: a lot of traditional religious communities are heavily skewed female. When I was single every last Catholic "young adults" group I met with had more women than men and if you look into the dynamics of traditionalist religions you'll figure out pretty quickly that a lot of women are unable to find a male who is friendly to their religion (subtext: At least enough to go to church with them and gain social circle/family approval, but can also make them moist).

That was why I had great success on those sites. My profile was subtly written to say that I'm religious and traditional just like you, but if we do get married I'm going to fuck you so good and so hard you'll think Heaven got here early.

Post: #23

How many of those validate-me apps shoot jizz in their faces/mouths/pussies, call them sluts, spank their asses and try to bang their sisters/best friends/mothers ? Like some add-ons to plug on the phone as the motorola and his hasselblad zoom.



There might be some market to take here as there already is sexbot giving realistic BJ and fake baby for too-old-wannabe mothers and it might be the future best seller if it work with VR/ER...

Elon MUSK if you read this

Post: #24

I think Tinder and similar sites have had an opposite effect. They've made men lazy and less inclined to improve themselves. Just one opinion, based on no real evidence.

Post: #25

Nah, not really. I feel like I still do better in person despite being a pretty boring dude (to women). If you've got the balls to approach aggressively and set yourself apartment the droves of boring dudes online, you always win. Online is a supplement and while it might have some effect on real life, I think nothing trumps raw animal attraction in person.