Can primitive biological drivers be accepted and taught in a Christian society?

(06-08-2017 10:37 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

(06-08-2017 12:18 AM)Suits Wrote:  That's unfortunate, because due to our ability to conduct DNA studies, it's now pretty clear that macro-evolution is a thing.

Christians were able to live in denial for a good long time, but now that scientific inquiry has provided rock solid evidence for many things that would ruin a Sunday School picnic, the Christian church is now the refuge of those who prefer to stick their heads in the sand.

Christianity is not anti-evolution in the slightest. The Catholic Church accepts the theory of evolution.

The historical relationship between science and Christianity is a complex one. This is actually my dissertation topic, believe it or not.

Yes, but the people you'll go to church with usually are.

Even if they are flexible about evolution, it doesn't stop them from declaring the Bible "inspired" and "truth" and then picking and choosing which parts they want to enforce.

That's the thing about Christians of all stripes. The ones who follow the Bible 100% insist that the Garden of Eden is a real thing and that's how creation went down and everyone else picks and chooses which parts of the Bible to follow based on convenience.

Most churches swear by the following two rules:

(1) Women can do no wrong. They are all wonderful mothers and if they leave their husband, it was because they were abused. If they have sex before marriage, I was because they were innocently looking for love and a bad man manipulated them. They are above reproach.

(2) All men/boys are evil. There is no justification for porn, even if women are waiting till 27 to even consider marriage to anyone who isn't a rich and stylist example of physical perfection. It's totally OK for women to refuse sex to their husbands, because maybe they have a headache or maybe there's a medical reason or maybe she's exhausted from all the work of being a mother that really should pay a $250K a year salary, because it's really the same as being the CEO of Google only harder. All fathers need to be bitched out for being bad fathers on Father's Day. Fuck you, men!

Quote

(06-08-2017 11:17 PM)Suits Wrote:  

(06-08-2017 10:37 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

(06-08-2017 12:18 AM)Suits Wrote:  That's unfortunate, because due to our ability to conduct DNA studies, it's now pretty clear that macro-evolution is a thing.

Christians were able to live in denial for a good long time, but now that scientific inquiry has provided rock solid evidence for many things that would ruin a Sunday School picnic, the Christian church is now the refuge of those who prefer to stick their heads in the sand.

Christianity is not anti-evolution in the slightest. The Catholic Church accepts the theory of evolution.

The historical relationship between science and Christianity is a complex one. This is actually my dissertation topic, believe it or not.

Yes, but the people you'll go to church with usually are.

Even if they are flexible about evolution, it doesn't stop them from declaring the Bible "inspired" and "truth" and then picking and choosing which parts they want to enforce.

That's the thing about Christians of all stripes. The ones who follow the Bible 100% insist that the Garden of Eden is a real thing and that's how creation went down and everyone else picks and chooses which parts of the Bible to follow based on convenience.

Most churches swear by the following two rules:

(1) Women can do no wrong. They are all wonderful mothers and if they leave their husband, it was because they were abused. If they have sex before marriage, I was because they were innocently looking for love and a bad man manipulated them. They are above reproach.

(2) All men/boys are evil. There is no justification for porn, even if women are waiting till 27 to even consider marriage to anyone who isn't a rich and stylist example of physical perfection. It's totally OK for women to refuse sex to their husbands, because maybe they have a headache or maybe there's a medical reason or maybe she's exhausted from all the work of being a mother that really should pay a $250K a year salary, because it's really the same as being the CEO of Google only harder. All fathers need to be bitched out for being bad fathers on Father's Day. Fuck you, men!

What makes you say that? Were you an avid church-goer for awhile? In what country, and/or area of a country?

Would any of those pathologies you identified be a problem with Christianity, or rather with feminism/PC-leftism infecting modern-day Christian-teachings?

I'm not disputing you, just curious. I would like to learn more about religion and religious practices, especially as it pertains to socio-political life, nowadays.

Quote

(06-08-2017 11:28 PM)Kabal Wrote:  

(06-08-2017 11:17 PM)Suits Wrote:  

(06-08-2017 10:37 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

(06-08-2017 12:18 AM)Suits Wrote:  That's unfortunate, because due to our ability to conduct DNA studies, it's now pretty clear that macro-evolution is a thing.

Christians were able to live in denial for a good long time, but now that scientific inquiry has provided rock solid evidence for many things that would ruin a Sunday School picnic, the Christian church is now the refuge of those who prefer to stick their heads in the sand.

Christianity is not anti-evolution in the slightest. The Catholic Church accepts the theory of evolution.

The historical relationship between science and Christianity is a complex one. This is actually my dissertation topic, believe it or not.

Yes, but the people you'll go to church with usually are.

Even if they are flexible about evolution, it doesn't stop them from declaring the Bible "inspired" and "truth" and then picking and choosing which parts they want to enforce.

That's the thing about Christians of all stripes. The ones who follow the Bible 100% insist that the Garden of Eden is a real thing and that's how creation went down and everyone else picks and chooses which parts of the Bible to follow based on convenience.

Most churches swear by the following two rules:

(1) Women can do no wrong. They are all wonderful mothers and if they leave their husband, it was because they were abused. If they have sex before marriage, I was because they were innocently looking for love and a bad man manipulated them. They are above reproach.

(2) All men/boys are evil. There is no justification for porn, even if women are waiting till 27 to even consider marriage to anyone who isn't a rich and stylist example of physical perfection. It's totally OK for women to refuse sex to their husbands, because maybe they have a headache or maybe there's a medical reason or maybe she's exhausted from all the work of being a mother that really should pay a $250K a year salary, because it's really the same as being the CEO of Google only harder. All fathers need to be bitched out for being bad fathers on Father's Day. Fuck you, men!

What makes you say that? Were you an avid church-goer for awhile? In what country, and/or area of a country?

Would any of those pathologies you identified be a problem with Christianity, or rather with feminism/PC-leftism infecting modern-day Christian-teachings?

I'm not disputing you, just curious. I would like to learn more about religion and religious practices, especially as it pertains to socio-political life, nowadays.

Avid church-goer for most of my life in Canada, the USA and China.

I don't have any problems with Christianity. I have a problem with organized churches, as they all seem to be either infected by feminism or are old-school and take on illogical positions on the Bible, for example arguing that the world was created in the last 10,000 years.

Quote

(06-08-2017 11:10 PM)Kabal Wrote:  That sounds awesome (not being sarcastic), very interesting. Can you talk more about it?

Sure, send me a PM. This is a huge field, so there's a ton of material.

Quote

The usual mine-fields about organised/non-organised Christianity and cucked churches notwithstanding, I can see how in these sorts of communities it would be simpler and easier just to adapt the scripture and teach through that instead.

I'm going to be honest about Scorpion's reply. While I find it well reasoned and thought out it it doesn't really address the fundamentals of damage control by teaching the red pill on instinctual responses.

The problem with ancient metaphors is that they translate very poorly in day to day life. Maybe there's a passage that would guide someone on why stepping in to help a crackhead woman when her crackhead boyfriend is beating on her is a bad idea which is motivated almost entirely by your cave-man balls sensing an easy sperm drop. But even if such a passage existed, who would preach on it and what young member of the congregation would even join the dots in a moment like that?

Ultimately I suppose that the biggest hurdle to this sort of stuff wouldn't be the Christians so much as the mothers who's egos would have to take a serious belting if their sons were taught what women (and by extension their mothers) were really all about.

Quote

(06-09-2017 08:44 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  The usual mine-fields about organised/non-organised Christianity and cucked churches notwithstanding, I can see how in these sorts of communities it would be simpler and easier just to adapt the scripture and teach through that instead.

I'm going to be honest about Scorpion's reply. While I find it well reasoned and thought out it it doesn't really address the fundamentals of damage control by teaching the red pill on instinctual responses.

The problem with ancient metaphors is that they translate very poorly in day to day life. Maybe there's a passage that would guide someone on why stepping in to help a crackhead woman when her crackhead boyfriend is beating on her is a bad idea which is motivated almost entirely by your cave-man balls sensing an easy sperm drop. But even if such a passage existed, who would preach on it and what young member of the congregation would even join the dots in a moment like that?

Ultimately I suppose that the biggest hurdle to this sort of stuff wouldn't be the Christians so much as the mothers who's egos would have to take a serious belting if their sons were taught what women (and by extension their mothers) were really all about.

Leonard did you read my post?

Quote:Mage, the bible isn't a guidebook on how to make a perfect society here on Earth. If that's what you're looking for then I suggest you look into Islam (yuk yuk yuk).

Christianity at its base is a simple guide for feeding the spiritual aspects of one's psyche. Jesus goes so far as to mention this with his "two kingdoms". (ex Render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser, render unto God's what is God's).

The bible isn't going to spell out red pill lessons for you. The only extrapolation you'll get would be from the golden rule. " I love myself and hold myself to high standards and am thus healthy and wealthy. It stands to reason that doing crack and getting beaten by a low life is bad."

Jesus also mentions the woes of consuming too much alcohol which has a basis in, "too much of something good is bad."

These old school patriarchal (red pill) values you're looking for are called common sense. The golden rule protects a great deal from danger but these are lessons that come from wisdom gained experience.

Again, I say: read the bloody new testament and actually see what it answers beyond what we're telling you.

Quote

I get where L.N. is going.

Not everyone is willing to become a Christian or read the New Testament, and a large part of that blame falls on the church itself, and the layers and layers of emotional and doctrinal cruft it has accumulated over the years.

If he can express the idea of female nature through a biological approach, and it helps young men, why not do it?

I don't think Jesus would be against teaching about sin no matter how you framed it.

Quote

Beast, I wasn't commenting on your post. I was commenting on Scorpion's.

Look, I'm not asking for a word by word extrapolation of the New Testament and I'm trying to be really clear about that.

I'm asking if the "unwashed masses" of Christianity could stomach red-pill truth on how biology influences psychology and whether they would ever concede to have it taught in a school setting.

This thread was intended purely to focus on practical implementation of that concept and what hurdles it would face in a majority Christian society.

I totally get it, but frankly not that many Christians that I've ever known are on the same level that we are.

Quote

(06-09-2017 10:01 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  Beast, I wasn't commenting on your post. I was commenting on Scorpion's.

Look, I'm not asking for a word by word extrapolation of the New Testament and I'm trying to be really clear about that.

I'm asking if the "unwashed masses" of Christianity could stomach red-pill truth on how biology influences psychology and whether they would ever concede to have it taught in a school setting.

This thread was intended purely to focus on practical implementation of that concept and what hurdles it would face in a majority Christian society.

I totally get it, but frankly not that many Christians that I've ever known are on the same level that we are.

You will only get Christian men (or any blue pilled men) to believe biological red pill truths, live by them, and have them taught to their children in schools if they experience them first hand in their own lives.

You'd need a whole religion made up of priests who were ex players with high notch counts and serious knowledge of how women act behind the scenes. Interestingly, in the past, many of the men who became saints in were ex players who bedded a lot of women. Saint Augustine from the 4th century is a good example.

In our own lives, we all know that that blue pill dude who doesn't get laid much (and doesn't understand why), or the married guy who cannot ever imagine his wife ever divorce raping him, will ever believe any of the red pill truth bombs we drop here every day unless he lives it for himself. Meaning Christian men would have to deliberately "sin" and be confronted with the devil's evil itself before believing. Also remember NAWALT (not all women are like that) is one of the most ingrained and hardest of blue pill beliefs for most men to abandon. It's usually the very last hope guys cling to before becoming fully red pilled. Many men from my father's generation are 100% NAWALT and no amount of stories about girl's awful behaviour nowadays will ever change that.

Rollo Tomassi from "the rational male" said it best

"Unplugging chumps from the Matrix is a lot like triage –

Save the ones you can, read last rites to the dying."



...

Quote

"Grant me chastity and continence, but not yet."

Augustine of Hippo

Quote

(06-09-2017 10:01 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  Beast, I wasn't commenting on your post. I was commenting on Scorpion's.

Look, I'm not asking for a word by word extrapolation of the New Testament and I'm trying to be really clear about that.

I'm asking if the "unwashed masses" of Christianity could stomach red-pill truth on how biology influences psychology and whether they would ever concede to have it taught in a school setting.

This thread was intended purely to focus on practical implementation of that concept and what hurdles it would face in a majority Christian society.

I totally get it, but frankly not that many Christians that I've ever known are on the same level that we are.

The answer is yes. I'm presently attending and have previously attended churches that speak to such ills. Most of it pertains to divorce and pre-marital sex.

These churches exist at least in America. I can't help you with the land of Oz.

Quote

Thank you for discussion Beast. Here are my replies:

(06-08-2017 02:56 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  What are we defining as "red pill"? In my mind, I view the red pill as old school patriarchy ie understanding base human impulses and using that knowledge to mitigate the potential harm that can come from that.

Old school patriarchy is common o all ancient cultures both monotheistic and polytheistic (paganism). Christianity today is the only leftover representative patriarchal tradition in he west(Islam and Judaism is still not native in west for sake of this argument). However in old times the polytheistic religions were often even more patriarchal then Christianity. Keep in mind that it was Christianity that allowed romanticism to flourish amidst itself - those romantic knight stories about Guinevere cheating on Arthur and about love being more important then fidelity and marriage - this has evolved into todays feminism over centuries. No other faith has permitted such a cancerous ideology within itself. So equating patriarchy and good morals with Christianity is not right.

(06-08-2017 02:56 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  Now that we've fleshed that out, i'm going to define what it means to be a Christian? At its simplest, all you need to do is practice and believe these two things:

1. That faith through Jesus leads to salvation.
2. Practice the golden rule.

Quote:Luke 10:25-28
25And one day an authority on the law stood up to put Jesus to the test. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to receive eternal life?"
26What is written in the Law?" Jesus replied. "How do you understand it?" 27He answered, " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Love him with all your strength and with all your mind.’(Deuteronomy 6:5) And, ‘Love your neighbor as you love yourself.’ " 28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do that, and you will live.".

That's it. Nothing more nothing less.

I try to practice the Golden rule because it is not limited to Christianity, but I will not buy that God cares about people believing or not believing in historical details about Jesus life and divinity. Also this explanation about what exactly leads to salvation differs from one Christian denomination to other. Most Christians are ignorant about what other types of Christianity preach on this. it is a very broad topic.

(06-08-2017 02:56 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  There isn't anything written in the new testament that runs contrary to evolutionary psychology, neuroscience, and red pill knowledge. Christianity teaches that this is a fallen world poisoned by sin in that what one person defines as "utopia" would be another person's hell.

Take a second to read my mini thesis that sin and evolution go hand in hand. /thread-54219.html

Sin serves a purpose as a means to drive us from our basil instincts to a more, dare I say it "evolved" level of understanding.

Sin is bad mkay. However, salvation after sinning provides perspective and wisdom. I wouldn't trade my previous sinful choices for any others on the mere basis that it has provided me with the wisdom I now have today. If anything sin is a natural response to a being forced into a world where scarcity is the rule.

This thesis of yours is nothing new. Kaballah teaches this.

If you believe this you must also believe that God made Satan to tempt Eve on purpose and that God leads people into temptation and sin so that they could come out of it better then they were before.

The thing is Christians don't believe that. Christians don't believe God leads people into temptation which brings them into cognitive dissonance on why God created Satan knowing it would rebel.

I agree on your views on this but it is not Christianity it is Kaballah.

(06-08-2017 02:56 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

(06-08-2017 03:02 AM)Mage Wrote:  Sure Old Testament holds red pill ideas on how Adam was banished from Paradise for disobaying God and lisening to his wife who was easily decieved like all women are. This is a red pill depiction of things, but remember that Old testament is not a Chrsitian book. It was a book where ancient Jews put in a lot of their knowledge about the inner workings of human soul. It is adobted by Christians and it's meaning twisted to make Jesus look like a God.

No, this is wrong and an incorrect interpretation of why the old testament was written. The old testament, beyond its basis as the holy books of Judaism, is a "testament" of God's promise to the people of Israel. The promise that God's chosen people will inherit a great nation and be reworded greatly for their faith with a messiah who will usher in these great rewords.

It was "adopted" simply on the basis that Jesus was the one promised to the Israelites as the one who will make this great kingdom. The old testament is shown in the bible as proof that Jesus was God's answer to that. It's also why in the first few chapters of the New Testament you see mention of Jesus' family being descendants from so and so all the way back to King David. The blood line is important in solidifying that claim.

Check out Rabbi Tovia Singer on youtube he refutes all these claims. The Christians have even mistranslated many words of OT to make it look like it promises Jesus. The jewish Torah and Christian OT is different contrary to Christian claims that they are similar.

OT has a completely different esoteric meaning, after I have studied Kaballah and seen this occult meaning I cannot go back and believe it talks about things literary as mainstream Jews and Christians think.

(06-08-2017 02:56 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  Mage, the bible isn't a guidebook on how to make a perfect society here on Earth. If that's what you're looking for then I suggest you look into Islam (yuk yuk yuk).

Christianity at its base is a simple guide for feeding the spiritual aspects of one's psyche. Jesus goes so far as to mention this with his "two kingdoms". (ex Render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser, render unto God's what is God's).

Jesus teaching is legit on many things including this but that is no reason to make a God out of him.

(06-08-2017 02:56 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  The magic of Christianity is that it provides a solution for two types of people. The risk averse (avoid doing this and you won't get hurt) and those who think they know better, go out, get burned by sin, and then come back beat and broken. Christianity provides a framework for healing the wounds caused by those actions. Jesus talks about this in the parable about the prodigal son.

One of the reasons I became fed up with Christianity that contrary to it claiming being not like this world it does just like this world reward the risk takers much better then risk averse people.

I was a christian from birth and observed all of tenets from childhood but I quickly found out that in christian circles if you do not have a fascinating story (a.k.a testimony) about how you used drugs / practiced occultism / called out demons / made abortions / slept with hundreds of women / converted from Islam or other religion of have a similar bad boy story that make the good Christian girl panties wet then you are invisible in that society. Not only invisible to girls but to everyone else including priests too because Christian society is all about females. Unless you play a guitar or sing maybe you must have a bad boy testimony to be somebody. I became fed up with this hypocrisy. Christianity is a feminine bad boy cult for smart bad boys to return after a stupid life get their Christian girl and play the role of a converted man while their popularity rests on their past mischiefs.

I abandoned Christianity and became a bad boy to get my own traditional Christian girl. But I am not a hypocrite and I will not go back telling how Jesus made me turn around and seek him out. Masculinity and all things women value in a man are incompatible with Christianity because it is the feminine cult of converted bad boys feeding the ultimate female fantasy to convert and domesticate a bad boy.

(06-08-2017 02:56 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  Red pill (or old school patriarchal values) and Christianity go hand in hand. Unfortunately, most Christians fail at applying the golden rule (hey it's hard). Old school patriarchal values have been forgotten which also doesn't help either. If Christians at least stuck to the golden rule 50% of the time the lack of patriarchal values wouldn't hurt as much. This isn't a fault of Christianity as the only "red pill" advice found in the New Testament comes from Paul (outlining what it takes to make a healthy church community, succeed in marriage, and define why sexual urges can lead down a path of sin). This is all just further proof that even though we've "evolved" so far as to not be as violent as we were in the past, we still have a great very long way to go before we can claim we've undid the truly detrimental aspects of our Id/sinful natures.

I believe old-school Christianity's patriarchal values came from paganism which was also practiced by common folk. When people completely forgot their pagan roots the Christianity became into SJW cult of mercy and tolerance it is today.

(06-08-2017 02:56 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  As for your first bit about men here being hypocrites, I agree. I've committed great acts of sin when I was slaying poon and it eventually weighed heavily on me. I sought out Christianity again to heal the wounds caused by me cavorting with dysfunctional females.

There's a clear divide between those who frequent the game forum and those who spend a majority of their time in EE, Politics, and the Deep Forum. There are a handful of characters here who I view as animals who are driven only by their base desires. Still good dudes, but pretty animalistic in their drives. Others are a bit more enlightened. It's a spectrum, but beyond simple evangelizing with some old school patriarchal values thrown in there isn't much I can do to change their behavior. It's up to them to make that decision on their own. Their lives are their own choices and that's the magic of this world. Thankfully, we live in a time where the external culture forces are there to allow you to come to that decision willingly instead of coerced (like in Islam).

All females covet the bad boy both the functional and the dysfunctional ones. I have a beautiful functional Christian wife who goes to church every Sunday and prays every day - do I keep her love for me on with confessing Bible and Christ? No - I do it by being a masculne man and applying the principles of Game a.k.a evolutionary psychology in my life plus some aspects of Kaballah and paganism. Had I remained a true Christian I would never have a good wife like her and I would never enjoy such freedom from my wife as i do now.

I know many guys who have came "back to Christ" after years of whoring, partying and drugging around. They are still hypocrites too because they are like wolves among the usual timid Christian men. All christian girls love them. Not only is the Church for sinners it also puts former sinners above non-sinners. Even priests and pastors love them because they are useful to bring out heart touching soppy testimonies and pastors have something to fill their evening programs with. I better fallow a teaching like Kabalah that openly admits that sin is a requirement for our growth then Christianity which deceives people into thinking all sin is bad while actually loving it.

(06-08-2017 02:56 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  Here's what I suggest to you Mage and Leonard. Read the new testament and see what you find in the text. You may find something, you may find nothing. Either way, you'll have a better understanding of what it means to be a real Christian. Don't rely on what you think you understand, heard from some pastor somewhere, or remember if you read it many years ago. I'm sorry to say, but a lot of what you wrote seems to be by a man who came to that decision from hearing other people talk about scripture. Hell, when I became an atheist years ago that was my same path too. I thought I "knew" what it meant and until I read it as an adult, almost 98% of all of the clergymen and women I listened to previously were utterly useless.

Once you've done that out, it's up to you if you want to find a healthy church community. A good community of like minded people will help foster your ability to maintain a healthy and balanced life where you aren't driven as much to seek out unhealthy impulses (seriously it works). The ones I've frequented happened to be full of traditional virginal women who gasp went through higher education in big blue cities and still want traditional marriages. The good communities don't allow female clergy, don't marry gays, and above all encourage chastity before marriage. Those are the ingredients you need whether it's a Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, Orthodox, etc .

I know you all aren't perfect, nor should you feel immense guilt because of it. This isn't a perfect world. But if you find a good church community, nothing is more enticing to a chaste Christian woman than a reformed bad boy who knows how to push those buttons to make 'gina tingles.

Do you like the Christian values that the west was founded on? Do you want a healthy life long marriage? Afraid of losing the west to barbarians who pump out more kids then you?

All it takes is one Christian woman to make many kids and a good church community to keep the children (wife included) in line and turn the decline around.

The choice is yours.

As you see I have it all - knowledge of new testament and a good Christian wife and kids - without believing the superstitions of Christianity.

And here you admit - Christian girls love guys with sin in their pasts. I cannot believe that simultaneously God intended all sin to be evil and also created human females in a way that makes them love nothing more in men then their sins. God basically made sin a prerequisite for procreation. This is what you get when you combine Christianity with Red pill - a fucked up theology.

A much better belief system is Kaballah - it doesn't use the term sin except when explaining things to Christians. It teaches that we are all egoists and that we must use the egoism to transcend it. We have our animal instincts and on top of them we have egoism which makes us able to disobey the instincts and act in discord with nature like no animal can. God gave this ability to us trough Eve and the snake which is not a physical event but the feminine principle in all of us. So Kaballah has no Satan only one God who acts as both God and Satan to push people towards divinity in a bad cop / good cop fashion. Seeking God is the highest form of Egoism that only those who are fed up with all hedonistic desires and power-lusts of this word. Kaballah teaches that it is better to be a big egoist then a small hypocritical virtue signaling one why tries to play a saint like Christians or SJWs do, because only big egoists are ripe to transcend it and step into divine Altruism. This is a red pill theology, Christianity is blue pill.

Quote

(06-08-2017 08:21 PM)scorpion Wrote:  It's kind of a strange question, Leonard. You're essentially asking, "Should we tell women about original sin and the dangers of giving in to their sinful desires?" Except you want to leave everything associated with God and Christianity out of it. You've just substituted the terms "base nature", "primitive programming" and "evolutionary psychology" for sin. So this is well-trod ground. And the answer is yes, you should tell young women about sin. You should also tell young men about sin. You should tell everybody about sin. From a Christian perspective, understanding sin is absolutely crucial to understanding our relationship with God. People who don't understand sin and/or who don't view themselves as sinful feel like they don't need God. The entire concept of a savior doesn't make sense to them because they don't see what they need to be saved from. People who deny their sin are thus alienated from God (see 1 John 1: 5-10).

Therefore we have no need to reach for the preposterous canard of evolution to explain the so-called "base nature" of women. It is explained very clearly in the Bible as being a consequence of the fall of mankind. To quote:

Genesis 3:16-19 Wrote:Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Adam & Eve's disobedience brought a curse upon mankind that would extend through all of humanity. Prior to the fall they had been perfect physical creatures in total spiritual harmony with God. After the fall they became corrupted physical creatures who were spiritually alienated from God.

Let's unpack the specifics of the curse of sin. First, with Eve:

"I will greatly multiply thy sorrow"

Any man with a modicum of experience with women can certify that they are essentially miserable creatures at their core. Their happiness is entirely externally generated. They are therefore constantly chasing happiness and distraction in an effort to outrun the misery inside of them. This is their curse.

"thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee"

Women crave male domination and leadership, yet at the same time resent it and will constantly seek to rebel (being miserable at heart). This is the fallen state of women. They are forced to submit to men (fathers, brothers, husbands) by both necessity (being physically and mentally/emotionally weaker) and by a natural desire they cannot deny. Every daughter of Eve is cursed - placed under the dominion of man, a position which she both craves and rebels against, doomed to be sorrowful all her days.

Of course, men didn't fare much better. We were also cursed, but our curse was different because Adam's sin was different:

"Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life"

What does this mean? Basically: "Because you were weak and listened to your wife instead of my clear instructions, and therefore abrogated the responsibility I gave you, I have cursed the Earth, and your existence henceforth shall be one of miserable toil. You will eke out an existence through the sweat of your brow your entire life long. And you will receive no reward for all of this work, no ultimate victory. One day you will simply drop dead and be consumed back into the dust of the earth that you battled all your life."

This is also clearly a curse, and one that extends to the present day. Work is the curse of men. The vast majority of men must toil for their daily bread, and even those few who are financially in a position to not have to work soon find themselves pursuing some activity or other with great intensity. Men are cursed with the need and the desire to make themselves useful in this world. We simply cannot "just be". We must always be accomplishing more, acquiring more, making ourselves greater in some capacity. An endless hunger for money, fame, sex, glory, pleasure drives us. So we toil on, day after day, on an endless treadmill chasing the satisfaction that is just outside of our reach, until finally one day we drop dead and the whole pitiful charade comes to an end.

This is the state we find ourselves in: cursed by sin and alienated from God. This is not a uniquely female problem, it's a human problem. Therefore as I said earlier, yes, we must teach the doctrine of original sin. And no, there is no need to frame it in terms of evolution in any capacity.

There is no conflict inherent with Christian doctrine in teaching young women that they are sinful creatures, and that their sins and temptations are different from those of men. This is actually a core Christian teaching, which is literally right at the beginning of the Bible. The fact that most churches don't emphasize this says nothing about real Christianity and everything about how far we have strayed from the truths clearly laid out for us in Scripture.

To sum up this post: this wouldn't be an issue if people simply read the Bible, took what it said at face value and instructed their children based on its teachings. It's really that simple. Any desire to further complicate things past that point is just further indicative of humanity's endless capacity for rebellion, self-delusion and folly.

The character count in the reputation pane needs to be expanded already! There are already dozens of Scorpion's posts that I couldn't fit in there.

Quote

I want to thank the participants here for some really eye-opening stuff on both ends of the spectrum.

If I don't click "like" it's because I don't feel comfortable to do that, having little or no experience with certain theologies and nuances within same. This post will have to suffice as a like for everyone that's contributed.

Quote

(06-10-2017 04:24 AM)Mage Wrote:  Thank you for discussion Beast. Here are my replies:

(06-08-2017 02:56 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  What are we defining as "red pill"? In my mind, I view the red pill as old school patriarchy ie understanding base human impulses and using that knowledge to mitigate the potential harm that can come from that.

Old school patriarchy is common o all ancient cultures both monotheistic and polytheistic (paganism). Christianity today is the only leftover representative patriarchal tradition in he west(Islam and Judaism is still not native in west for sake of this argument). However in old times the polytheistic religions were often even more patriarchal then Christianity. Keep in mind that it was Christianity that allowed romanticism to flourish amidst itself - those romantic knight stories about Guinevere cheating on Arthur and about love being more important then fidelity and marriage - this has evolved into todays feminism over centuries. No other faith has permitted such a cancerous ideology within itself. So equating patriarchy and good morals with Christianity is not right.

I disagree. The golden rule leaves provisions for patriarchy and good morals by the phrase "loving oneself". I love myself greatly and as such wouldn't allow certain folks or behaviors to act that way towards me. Thusly, patriarchal wisdom is born.

(06-10-2017 04:24 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(06-08-2017 02:56 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  Now that we've fleshed that out, i'm going to define what it means to be a Christian? At its simplest, all you need to do is practice and believe these two things:

1. That faith through Jesus leads to salvation.
2. Practice the golden rule.

Quote:Luke 10:25-28
25And one day an authority on the law stood up to put Jesus to the test. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to receive eternal life?"
26What is written in the Law?" Jesus replied. "How do you understand it?" 27He answered, " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Love him with all your strength and with all your mind.’(Deuteronomy 6:5) And, ‘Love your neighbor as you love yourself.’ " 28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do that, and you will live.".

That's it. Nothing more nothing less.

I try to practice the Golden rule because it is not limited to Christianity, but I will not buy that God cares about people believing or not believing in historical details about Jesus life and divinity. Also this explanation about what exactly leads to salvation differs from one Christian denomination to other. Most Christians are ignorant about what other types of Christianity preach on this. it is a very broad topic.

I've been all over the map when it comes to Christian denominations. As an ardent reader of Martin Luther's writings, the simplicity of scripture is all that is needed for salvation. Anyone telling you anything otherwise is just complicating the matter.

So long as they believe in the divinity of Jesus and salvation through him, I could care less. Different strokes for different folks, but that is why I sought of Lutheranism.

(06-10-2017 04:24 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(06-08-2017 02:56 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  There isn't anything written in the new testament that runs contrary to evolutionary psychology, neuroscience, and red pill knowledge. Christianity teaches that this is a fallen world poisoned by sin in that what one person defines as "utopia" would be another person's hell.

Take a second to read my mini thesis that sin and evolution go hand in hand. /thread-54219.html

Sin serves a purpose as a means to drive us from our basil instincts to a more, dare I say it "evolved" level of understanding.

Sin is bad mkay. However, salvation after sinning provides perspective and wisdom. I wouldn't trade my previous sinful choices for any others on the mere basis that it has provided me with the wisdom I now have today. If anything sin is a natural response to a being forced into a world where scarcity is the rule.

This thesis of yours is nothing new. Kaballah teaches this.

If you believe this you must also believe that God made Satan to tempt Eve on purpose and that God leads people into temptation and sin so that they could come out of it better then they were before.

The thing is Christians don't believe that. Christians don't believe God leads people into temptation which brings them into cognitive dissonance on why God created Satan knowing it would rebel.

I agree on your views on this but it is not Christianity it is Kaballah.

It's also been discussed by various Christian scholars. Nothing earth shattering here.

God did in fact make Satan. If you recall correctly, he was previously an angel who decided to rebel against God. I think it's safe to assume that even God can create things that turn into something he didn't intend.

Secondly, I found a lot of my questions answered by reading into the Nag Hammadi texts (Gnosticism), especially related to the demiurge and the fall. The biggest ones being the questions you've posited above. Without derailing this thread, there is something that can be learned analyzing early religious texts.

(06-10-2017 04:24 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(06-08-2017 02:56 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  [quote='Mage' pid='1587880' dateline='1496908975']Sure Old Testament holds red pill ideas on how Adam was banished from Paradise for disobaying God and lisening to his wife who was easily decieved like all women are. This is a red pill depiction of things, but remember that Old testament is not a Chrsitian book. It was a book where ancient Jews put in a lot of their knowledge about the inner workings of human soul. It is adobted by Christians and it's meaning twisted to make Jesus look like a God.

No, this is wrong and an incorrect interpretation of why the old testament was written. The old testament, beyond its basis as the holy books of Judaism, is a "testament" of God's promise to the people of Israel. The promise that God's chosen people will inherit a great nation and be reworded greatly for their faith with a messiah who will usher in these great rewords.

It was "adopted" simply on the basis that Jesus was the one promised to the Israelites as the one who will make this great kingdom. The old testament is shown in the bible as proof that Jesus was God's answer to that. It's also why in the first few chapters of the New Testament you see mention of Jesus' family being descendants from so and so all the way back to King David. The blood line is important in solidifying that claim.

Check out Rabbi Tovia Singer on youtube he refutes all these claims. The Christians have even mistranslated many words of OT to make it look like it promises Jesus. The jewish Torah and Christian OT is different contrary to Christian claims that they are similar.

OT has a completely different esoteric meaning, after I have studied Kaballah and seen this occult meaning I cannot go back and believe it talks about things literary as mainstream Jews and Christians think.
[/quote]

I greatly enjoyed reading the Kaballah and have a great respect for Judaism as a whole. However, if there has ever been a finer example of a woman spurned, it's Judaism's response to Christianity. Rabbinical scholars can't just be content with their own vision of their texts, they have an incessant need to discredit and find fault with the other. I guess it has something to do with God's (or in this case, the demiurge's) promises for them and then realizing that what they thought they were promised will never come to be.

(06-10-2017 04:24 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(06-08-2017 02:56 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  Mage, the bible isn't a guidebook on how to make a perfect society here on Earth. If that's what you're looking for then I suggest you look into Islam (yuk yuk yuk).

Christianity at its base is a simple guide for feeding the spiritual aspects of one's psyche. Jesus goes so far as to mention this with his "two kingdoms". (ex Render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser, render unto God's what is God's).

Jesus teaching is legit on many things including this but that is no reason to make a God out of him.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

(06-10-2017 04:24 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(06-08-2017 02:56 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  The magic of Christianity is that it provides a solution for two types of people. The risk averse (avoid doing this and you won't get hurt) and those who think they know better, go out, get burned by sin, and then come back beat and broken. Christianity provides a framework for healing the wounds caused by those actions. Jesus talks about this in the parable about the prodigal son.

One of the reasons I became fed up with Christianity that contrary to it claiming being not like this world it does just like this world reward the risk takers much better then risk averse people.

I was a christian from birth and observed all of tenets from childhood but I quickly found out that in christian circles if you do not have a fascinating story (a.k.a testimony) about how you used drugs / practiced occultism / called out demons / made abortions / slept with hundreds of women / converted from Islam or other religion of have a similar bad boy story that make the good Christian girl panties wet then you are invisible in that society. Not only invisible to girls but to everyone else including priests too because Christian society is all about females. Unless you play a guitar or sing maybe you must have a bad boy testimony to be somebody. I became fed up with this hypocrisy. Christianity is a feminine bad boy cult for smart bad boys to return after a stupid life get their Christian girl and play the role of a converted man while their popularity rests on their past mischiefs.

I abandoned Christianity and became a bad boy to get my own traditional Christian girl. But I am not a hypocrite and I will not go back telling how Jesus made me turn around and seek him out. Masculinity and all things women value in a man are incompatible with Christianity because it is the feminine cult of converted bad boys feeding the ultimate female fantasy to convert and domesticate a bad boy.

I disagree at least in my own personal experience. When I first made my return to Christ at a southern methodist congregation, I wrote a very thoughtful testimony which explained my trials and tribulations.

Well, being the "bad boy" that I formally was, I started getting cold shouldered and shunned within the community. It eventually came full circle and I took the hard decision to leave.

From that point forward, each church that I've been in I have hidden my previous life choices and let my changed behavior speak for itself. I have a thread in the EE section about my struggles with this.

(06-10-2017 04:24 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(06-10-2017 04:24 AM)Mage Wrote:  [quote='The Beast1' pid='1588372' dateline='1496951801']
Red pill (or old school patriarchal values) and Christianity go hand in hand. Unfortunately, most Christians fail at applying the golden rule (hey it's hard). Old school patriarchal values have been forgotten which also doesn't help either. If Christians at least stuck to the golden rule 50% of the time the lack of patriarchal values wouldn't hurt as much. This isn't a fault of Christianity as the only "red pill" advice found in the New Testament comes from Paul (outlining what it takes to make a healthy church community, succeed in marriage, and define why sexual urges can lead down a path of sin). This is all just further proof that even though we've "evolved" so far as to not be as violent as we were in the past, we still have a great very long way to go before we can claim we've undid the truly detrimental aspects of our Id/sinful natures.

I believe old-school Christianity's patriarchal values came from paganism which was also practiced by common folk. When people completely forgot their pagan roots the Christianity became into SJW cult of mercy and tolerance it is today.

I believe you're greatly over valuing the influence of paganism had into the 17th, 18th, and 19th and 20th centuries. No one was worshiping hellenistic gods by then nor were there any active druids or the like.

Again I say, Christianity does not seek to provide patriarchal values. That comes from its host culture. Whether that cultures remembers them or not is to be determined.

(06-10-2017 04:24 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(06-10-2017 04:24 AM)Mage Wrote:  [quote='The Beast1' pid='1588372' dateline='1496951801']
As for your first bit about men here being hypocrites, I agree. I've committed great acts of sin when I was slaying poon and it eventually weighed heavily on me. I sought out Christianity again to heal the wounds caused by me cavorting with dysfunctional females.

There's a clear divide between those who frequent the game forum and those who spend a majority of their time in EE, Politics, and the Deep Forum. There are a handful of characters here who I view as animals who are driven only by their base desires. Still good dudes, but pretty animalistic in their drives. Others are a bit more enlightened. It's a spectrum, but beyond simple evangelizing with some old school patriarchal values thrown in there isn't much I can do to change their behavior. It's up to them to make that decision on their own. Their lives are their own choices and that's the magic of this world. Thankfully, we live in a time where the external culture forces are there to allow you to come to that decision willingly instead of coerced (like in Islam).

All females covet the bad boy both the functional and the dysfunctional ones. I have a beautiful functional Christian wife who goes to church every Sunday and prays every day - do I keep her love for me on with confessing Bible and Christ? No - I do it by being a masculne man and applying the principles of Game a.k.a evolutionary psychology in my life plus some aspects of Kaballah and paganism. Had I remained a true Christian I would never have a good wife like her and I would never enjoy such freedom from my wife as i do now.

I know many guys who have came "back to Christ" after years of whoring, partying and drugging around. They are still hypocrites too because they are like wolves among the usual timid Christian men. All christian girls love them. Not only is the Church for sinners it also puts former sinners above non-sinners. Even priests and pastors love them because they are useful to bring out heart touching soppy testimonies and pastors have something to fill their evening programs with. I better fallow a teaching like Kabalah that openly admits that sin is a requirement for our growth then Christianity which deceives people into thinking all sin is bad while actually loving it.

To wit I say: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...15%3A11-32

There is value in being lost and found and as I said previously this is where the value of why sin is bad comes from. While a man who has been devote his entire life has value, there is also value in experiencing the pain and death of sin as an example of why you shouldn't do that.

Humans are funny creatures. What good is a lesson if you don't have something to be an example of said lesson?

I also highly doubt you'll find a pastor suggesting that those who sin hold greater value. What you're incorrectly interpreting is the enthusiasm someone has for a living example of a, "this is what happens when you do
x!"

I encourage you to find a pastor who suggests this.

(06-10-2017 04:24 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(06-08-2017 02:56 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  Here's what I suggest to you Mage and Leonard. Read the new testament and see what you find in the text. You may find something, you may find nothing. Either way, you'll have a better understanding of what it means to be a real Christian. Don't rely on what you think you understand, heard from some pastor somewhere, or remember if you read it many years ago. I'm sorry to say, but a lot of what you wrote seems to be by a man who came to that decision from hearing other people talk about scripture. Hell, when I became an atheist years ago that was my same path too. I thought I "knew" what it meant and until I read it as an adult, almost 98% of all of the clergymen and women I listened to previously were utterly useless.

Once you've done that out, it's up to you if you want to find a healthy church community. A good community of like minded people will help foster your ability to maintain a healthy and balanced life where you aren't driven as much to seek out unhealthy impulses (seriously it works). The ones I've frequented happened to be full of traditional virginal women who gasp went through higher education in big blue cities and still want traditional marriages. The good communities don't allow female clergy, don't marry gays, and above all encourage chastity before marriage. Those are the ingredients you need whether it's a Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, Orthodox, etc .

I know you all aren't perfect, nor should you feel immense guilt because of it. This isn't a perfect world. But if you find a good church community, nothing is more enticing to a chaste Christian woman than a reformed bad boy who knows how to push those buttons to make 'gina tingles.

Do you like the Christian values that the west was founded on? Do you want a healthy life long marriage? Afraid of losing the west to barbarians who pump out more kids then you?

All it takes is one Christian woman to make many kids and a good church community to keep the children (wife included) in line and turn the decline around.

The choice is yours.

As you see I have it all - knowledge of new testament and a good Christian wife and kids - without believing the superstitions of Christianity.

And here you admit - Christian girls love guys with sin in their pasts. I cannot believe that simultaneously God intended all sin to be evil and also created human females in a way that makes them love nothing more in men then their sins. God basically made sin a prerequisite for procreation. This is what you get when you combine Christianity with Red pill - a fucked up theology.

A much better belief system is Kaballah - it doesn't use the term sin except when explaining things to Christians. It teaches that we are all egoists and that we must use the egoism to transcend it. We have our animal instincts and on top of them we have egoism which makes us able to disobey the instincts and act in discord with nature like no animal can. God gave this ability to us trough Eve and the snake which is not a physical event but the feminine principle in all of us. So Kaballah has no Satan only one God who acts as both God and Satan to push people towards divinity in a bad cop / good cop fashion. Seeking God is the highest form of Egoism that only those who are fed up with all hedonistic desires and power-lusts of this word. Kaballah teaches that it is better to be a big egoist then a small hypocritical virtue signaling one why tries to play a saint like Christians or SJWs do, because only big egoists are ripe to transcend it and step into divine Altruism. This is a red pill theology, Christianity is blue pill.

Mage, I enjoyed your post but you completely blew yourself up with the bolded part above. You've essentially traded Christian superstition with that of Jewish superstition. In all honesty, you're essentially Jewish in all but name!

As I've already written: Christianity does not seek to create perfection here on Earth. It will never happen. No matter how many Rabbinical scholars wail, gnash their teeth, and feel extreme jealousy towards the success of Christianity. Jews keep trying to build their house on sand and it keeps collapsing. More power to them, but it's a futile endeavor.

I also find it ironic you've mentioned the Kabbalah. I too have read the book and I can see its influence in your thinking. I didn't care for its pessimistic view on the human condition, nor did it fully answer the questions I was asking.

At that point, I started reading into the Gnostic texts into trying to understand the primordial sources for Genesis and other early religions. Especially the biggest question of, "Why would God make sin and Satan?"

However, we're both arguing the benefits and negatives of Christian and Jewish mysticism which is a topic i'll leave for theology researchers. I commend your enthusiasm to your beliefs!

Quote

Beast1, a lot of what you say makes a lot of sense except one thing - it is not Christianity. You have Gnostic influences and it is Gnostic philosophy you try to re-brand as Christianity.

You have nice thoughts and ideas about how to make Christianity make more compatible with science and logic, but there was time when all these ideas were rejected by Christians in favor of some dogma cementing Jesus role as savior or other. Gnosticism was branded as heresy and eradicated.

If you don't look at Christianity as a normative religion but as a broad mixup of ideas ranging from OT and Jewish mystics to Christ and apostles, to Gnostics and Qatars, to st Augustine and Thomas, to Luther and Calvin and if you mix up all those things in any way you like you may like and ignore some other thing you may not like then you may get what you like and what is compatible with whatever you like. But it is not what 99.9% of Christians would call Christianity.

You are like some Islamic feminist twisting scriptures, contexts and traditions to make Islam compatible with feminism while 99.9% of Mulims scorn the idea. So similarly you might think that Christianity is compatible with red pill masculinity while 99.9 Christians would reject these ideas and favor some wishy washy christian paeido-psychology about Jesus love healing wounded hearts and women being Jesus daughters and holy and untouchable and how you as man should lay on cross for them just like Jesus did, (despite you having no mission of defeating death) and so on.

If you are a Gnostic label yourself as such. Don't drag the dead horse of Christianity with you, Lutheranism as father of all protestantism is among the most shallow and empty kinds, they have sterilized themselves when abandoning tradition's and mysticism of Catholic church, they are even having female clergy in certain countries.

In my opinion Kaballah stands close to the source of all Abrahamic tradition then Christianity and Gnosticism therefore it is less polluted and more clear, really explains all other Abrahamic religions and makes them easier to understand then they do themselves. Why would someone follow a secular non mystic like Luther is a non-quastion to me.

Quote

(06-13-2017 12:40 PM)Mage Wrote:  Beast1, a lot of what you say makes a lot of sense except one thing - it is not Christianity. You have Gnostic influences and it is Gnostic philosophy you try to re-brand as Christianity.

You have nice thoughts and ideas about how to make Christianity make more compatible with science and logic, but there was time when all these ideas were rejected by Christians in favor of some dogma cementing Jesus role as savior or other. Gnosticism was branded as heresy and eradicated.

If you don't look at Christianity as a normative religion but as a broad mixup of ideas ranging from OT and Jewish mystics to Christ and apostles, to Gnostics and Qatars, to st Augustine and Thomas, to Luther and Calvin and if you mix up all those things in any way you like you may like and ignore some other thing you may not like then you may get what you like and what is compatible with whatever you like. But it is not what 99.9% of Christians would call Christianity.

You are like some Islamic feminist twisting scriptures, contexts and traditions to make Islam compatible with feminism while 99.9% of Mulims scorn the idea. So similarly you might think that Christianity is compatible with red pill masculinity while 99.9 Christians would reject these ideas and favor some wishy washy christian paeido-psychology about Jesus love healing wounded hearts and women being Jesus daughters and holy and untouchable and how you as man should lay on cross for them just like Jesus did, (despite you having no mission of defeating death) and so on.

If you are a Gnostic label yourself as such. Don't drag the dead horse of Christianity with you, Lutheranism as father of all protestantism is among the most shallow and empty kinds, they have sterilized themselves when abandoning tradition's and mysticism of Catholic church, they are even having female clergy in certain countries.

In my opinion Kaballah stands close to the source of all Abrahamic tradition then Christianity and Gnosticism therefore it is less polluted and more clear, really explains all other Abrahamic religions and makes them easier to understand then they do themselves. Why would someone follow a secular non mystic like Luther is a non-quastion to me.

Mage, your ignorance on Christian belief and dogma towards your atheist Jewish beliefs has clouded your ability to research the background on the various traditions and beliefs that have evolved out of a common source.

For starters, just because a common Christian today doesn't understand the influence of Jewish mysticism, gnostic, st augustin, etc doesn't mean the influence isn't there. The same argument can be leveled against a reformed Jew.

Secondly, Luther's background was very much rooted in mysticism Christian and germanic. A simple google search will reveal multiple scholarly sources in this area. Again you are wrong in your proclamation that Luther was a secular non-mystic.

Thirdly, you lack a fundamental understanding of why the reformation occurred and what the chief complaints were which lead to the many flavors of protestant denominations we see today.

Again which i've said for the umpteenth time: a Christian need only believe in the divinity of Jesus and seek him for salvation. If a group wants to add on traditions for their worship services more power to them.

I understand your desire to get to the "roots" of abrahamaic religion, but you do realize that the Kabballah was a Jewish oral tradition (ie passed down by word of mouth) until it was recorded in the 16th century? Ever play a game of telephone? Let alone the fact that its current iteration comes from an 18th century rabbi where it is now enshrined within the traditions of Hasadic Judaism. You'd do yourself a better favor by just converting to orthodox Judaism.

Until you've taken a bit of time to read the New Testament as well as understand the fundamental differences between Christian denominations' ecclesiastical beliefs (especially the LCMS and the ELCA), this conversation is over.

But please, do continue to pontificate your patch work of beliefs but at least don't insult the Jewish beliefs and traditions you follow by then not attending temple.

Quote

I scanned through the thread before posting. I'm a little surprised my answer hasn't come up already. New Testament Christianity places an emphasis on living according to the spirit, not the flesh.

For example, Galatians 5:16-17 says "So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want".

To me, most of the base desires and behaviors that are present in humans are what Christianity calls "the flesh". Accepting Christ into your life and receiving the Holy Spirit provides a guidance that enables a person to pursue the more noble side of their natures.

I will take this idea farther, and relate it to civilization in general. It's natural to want to fuck a woman if you think she's hot, and if no one else is around, you can easily force her. It's natural to take something if you want it, or to kill someone if you hate them, assuming you are strong enough, or stealthy enough. Civilization requires its members to live according to a behavioral pattern that overrides these motivations. Freud would say that the superego contains the conditioning that overrides these base impulses.

You can look at this from another angle. Western civilization has long valued the power of reason, and the power of the will, to control oneself, to do what they know is right, in order to yield optimum results in life and in the community. This requires the ability to select long term gratification over short term gratification, and to make yourself work hard when you don't feel like it.

Societies in which these values and behaviors were widely encouraged and enforced beat out societies in which they were weaker, leading up to the Age of Discovery, in which European powers spread over the globe and conquered many areas where people still lived near a state of nature. The Europeans called these people savages, because they did not use reason and willpower to control themselves.

So, whether it's a Greek philosopher advising reason and willpower, or a Jewish writer writing about walking by the spirit, the ancient civilizations were clearly aware of the wild, uncontrolled nature of the fleshly desires, and the need to override them.

It's always been true that rich and powerful people allowed themselves these fleshly desires more than commoners were allowed. It's only in the prosperous, decadent phases of a civilization's history that the middle classes and the lower classes are allowed, and eventually encouraged to give into these desires, until we reach a point like now where rational thought is actually rejected and condemned as patriarchal oppression, and we have trannies invited to perform sexy dances for elementary school children. Unfortunately, in today's global culture, the whole world is going down the toilet of decadence at the same time.

The most that we can do is to serve as a remnant, to build lives of reason and order around us, and collect into families and communities that share these values, and ride it out as the pattern plays to the end. There are traditional Christian groups still scattered here and there, who will be among the remnant that comes through this current age.

Quote

(06-14-2017 12:09 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

(06-13-2017 12:40 PM)Mage Wrote:  Beast1, a lot of what you say makes a lot of sense except one thing - it is not Christianity. You have Gnostic influences and it is Gnostic philosophy you try to re-brand as Christianity.

You have nice thoughts and ideas about how to make Christianity make more compatible with science and logic, but there was time when all these ideas were rejected by Christians in favor of some dogma cementing Jesus role as savior or other. Gnosticism was branded as heresy and eradicated.

If you don't look at Christianity as a normative religion but as a broad mixup of ideas ranging from OT and Jewish mystics to Christ and apostles, to Gnostics and Qatars, to st Augustine and Thomas, to Luther and Calvin and if you mix up all those things in any way you like you may like and ignore some other thing you may not like then you may get what you like and what is compatible with whatever you like. But it is not what 99.9% of Christians would call Christianity.

You are like some Islamic feminist twisting scriptures, contexts and traditions to make Islam compatible with feminism while 99.9% of Mulims scorn the idea. So similarly you might think that Christianity is compatible with red pill masculinity while 99.9 Christians would reject these ideas and favor some wishy washy christian paeido-psychology about Jesus love healing wounded hearts and women being Jesus daughters and holy and untouchable and how you as man should lay on cross for them just like Jesus did, (despite you having no mission of defeating death) and so on.

If you are a Gnostic label yourself as such. Don't drag the dead horse of Christianity with you, Lutheranism as father of all protestantism is among the most shallow and empty kinds, they have sterilized themselves when abandoning tradition's and mysticism of Catholic church, they are even having female clergy in certain countries.

In my opinion Kaballah stands close to the source of all Abrahamic tradition then Christianity and Gnosticism therefore it is less polluted and more clear, really explains all other Abrahamic religions and makes them easier to understand then they do themselves. Why would someone follow a secular non mystic like Luther is a non-quastion to me.

Mage, your ignorance on Christian belief and dogma towards your atheist Jewish beliefs has clouded your ability to research the background on the various traditions and beliefs that have evolved out of a common source.

For starters, just because a common Christian today doesn't understand the influence of Jewish mysticism, gnostic, st augustin, etc doesn't mean the influence isn't there. The same argument can be leveled against a reformed Jew.

Secondly, Luther's background was very much rooted in mysticism Christian and germanic. A simple google search will reveal multiple scholarly sources in this area. Again you are wrong in your proclamation that Luther was a secular non-mystic.

Thirdly, you lack a fundamental understanding of why the reformation occurred and what the chief complaints were which lead to the many flavors of protestant denominations we see today.

Again which i've said for the umpteenth time: a Christian need only believe in the divinity of Jesus and seek him for salvation. If a group wants to add on traditions for their worship services more power to them.

I understand your desire to get to the "roots" of abrahamaic religion, but you do realize that the Kabballah was a Jewish oral tradition (ie passed down by word of mouth) until it was recorded in the 16th century? Ever play a game of telephone? Let alone the fact that its current iteration comes from an 18th century rabbi where it is now enshrined within the traditions of Hasadic Judaism. You'd do yourself a better favor by just converting to orthodox Judaism.

Until you've taken a bit of time to read the New Testament as well as understand the fundamental differences between Christian denominations' ecclesiastical beliefs (especially the LCMS and the ELCA), this conversation is over.

But please, do continue to pontificate your patch work of beliefs but at least don't insult the Jewish beliefs and traditions you follow by then not attending temple.

Beast1, do not get angry, please. let's discuss it calmly. Don't try to convert me or you will just get angry. Just exchange our opinions for contemplation without hate and attachment to end result ok?

I am not Jewish or atheist. I am culturally a Christian, I was born a Christian and live among them, they are my friends, but I find that religion not the truth in it's latest instance.

You say a Christian is anyone who believes in Jesus and trusts in salvation to him. You deny need to be baptized or observe sacraments like some confessions, ok just belief in salvation. But why do you think that way? Why do you think you need salvation? Christians thought you that there is this problem that you are damned and in need of salvation and also sold you this solution - Jesus. I am just an independently thinking guy and I have never been worried about my salvation whatever it means. I would like to know the secrets of this universe what was before birth, what will be after death, what is God like and how to live best, but salvation is not something I worry about so Christianity is simply not an interest of mine. I am interest in forces behind, what moves people to think the way they do, what moves them act the way they do, what makes me act and think as I do and how should I act and think. I don't worry about artificial questions like salvation and then seek remedies for artificial problems, like I do not use medicine and then another medicine for combating side effects.

If Jesus is needed for a nice afterlife then I will have no problem accepting that in front of Peter's gate, but I doubt it is true and I doubt God cares about people believing in one historical event or not. I see this as just a pacifier strategy made for people to calm down and do not think about esoteric questions too deep. "Here you go Jesus is answer to all problems and calm down, do not try to dig to deep and uncover any spiritual red pills"

You are right I know little about Luther and reasons of reformation. And I have little interest to study that because Lutherans are just as confused and blue pilled as any other Christian today. So I may have said something wrong about this character but it doesn't change the fact that this Lutheran confession is also not truth in final instance.

The argument about Kaballah being recorded in 16th century betrays an individual who has not even given a serious thought of checking it out. It is not that important when it was recorded if what it teaches is simply so true and applicable in real life. Torah and all of the Bible starts making much more sense with this knowledge then without it and that is thousands of years old scripture. The argument about oral tradition being unreliable betrays you as the true atheist in this discussion, it betrays you as not believing that the veracity of teaching may be verified in spirit and mystic experience, in unity with God. All of this is esoteric and there is no need to attend temple, which is impossible btw because there is no temple today. Recognizing Kaballah doesn't mean recognizing Judaism which is a superficial teaching and not esoteric teaching, just like Christianity. Do not mistake Kaballah as being a thing reserved for Jews, in fact most Jews are afraid to touch it and many people who practice it are not Jews and from this the western occult tradition follows.

The question of this thread is whether Christian society is compatible with red pill knowledge about man's carnal nature and it isn't. Christianity will always try to hide this nature behind a false equivalence of good vs. evil, when no such thing exists in reality. There is no good vs. evil, there is the carnal vs. human(divine) only. I only mentioned Kaballah because it too believes in this. You may try to backwards engineer Christianity and claim that you are a Chrsitian still because you believe in Jesus, just in an unique and intellectual way, but mass Christianity will never accept such beliefs and therefore it is incompatible with Christian society as the OP asked it in the question of this thread.

Quote

(06-16-2017 04:57 AM)Mage Wrote:  Beast1, do not get angry, please. let's discuss it calmly. Don't try to convert me or you will just get angry. Just exchange our opinions for contemplation without hate and attachment to end result ok?

There isn't a conversion going on here. What's going on here is my frustration that what I write goes in one of your ears and out the other which is caused by a dogmatic ignorance held firmly in place by medieval rabbinical propaganda.

The irony to all of this is, you're helping further buttress my own beliefs by having me go back to my previous theological studies which is further fortifying my faith. So with that said, thank you!

(06-16-2017 04:57 AM)Mage Wrote:  You say a Christian is anyone who believes in Jesus and trusts in salvation to him. You deny need to be baptized or observe sacraments like some confessions, ok just belief in salvation. But why do you think that way? Why do you think you need salvation? Christians thought you that there is this problem that you are damned and in need of salvation and also sold you this solution - Jesus. I am just an independently thinking guy and I have never been worried about my salvation whatever it means. I would like to know the secrets of this universe what was before birth, what will be after death, what is God like and how to live best, but salvation is not something I worry about so Christianity is simply not an interest of mine. I am interest in forces behind, what moves people to think the way they do, what moves them act the way they do, what makes me act and think as I do and how should I act and think. I don't worry about artificial questions like salvation and then seek remedies for artificial problems, like I do not use medicine and then another medicine for combating side effects.

That's because baptism and confession, while a good step one can make towards a Christian life, is works based. Requiring anything in addition to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is works-based salvation and this does not grant salvation. To add anything to the gospel is to say that Jesus' death on the cross was not sufficient to purchase our salvation. To say that baptism and confession are necessary for salvation is to say we must add our own good works and obedience to Christ's death in order to make it sufficient for salvation. Jesus' death alone paid for our sins (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus' payment for our sins is appropriated to our “account” by faith alone (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9). Therefore, baptism and confessionals are an important step of obedience after salvation but cannot be a requirement for salvation.

As for why salvation is important, we'll just have to chalk that up to laziness and ignorance on your part because the Talmud is quite clear on the immense importance of ones salvation. As a student of the kaballah, a kaballistic inspired rabbi would slap you for taking the add on to the Talmud, utilizing its lessons, all the while eschewing the basic reasons for why salvation is important.

You're definitely not Christian (culturally Christian doesn't count). You're certainly not an atheist. You are however a poorly functioning Jew with your hodge podge of beliefs.

(06-16-2017 04:57 AM)Mage Wrote:  If Jesus is needed for a nice afterlife then I will have no problem accepting that in front of Peter's gate, but I doubt it is true and I doubt God cares about people believing in one historical event or not. I see this as just a pacifier strategy made for people to calm down and do not think about esoteric questions too deep. "Here you go Jesus is answer to all problems and calm down, do not try to dig to deep and uncover any spiritual red pills"

Seriously, for someone so hell bent on downplaying Jesus' ministry, lessons, and divinity maybe you should take the time to read its spiritual books which by the way are so hilariously short compared to the kaballah you'll have it finished in under five days. It will help bolster your arguments.

Here's a great parable which explains why you shouldn't risk passing this world without having faith:

(06-16-2017 04:57 AM) (Matt 22:1-14) Wrote:  Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

“Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

“But they paid no attention and went off–one to his field, another to his business. The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

“Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

“But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. ‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’ The man was speechless.

“Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

“For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

Sounds like you want to be the man without the wedding clothes. You really want to take that chance?

Of course God still loves you, so ultimately I doubt you will face eternal damnation. My curiosity in what happens to people with beliefs like yourself lead me to study the gnostic texts which actually explains what happens. It isn't pretty, but you're still loved so take it for what it's worth.

(06-16-2017 04:57 AM)Mage Wrote:  You are right I know little about Luther and reasons of reformation. And I have little interest to study that because Lutherans are just as confused and blue pilled as any other Christian today. So I may have said something wrong about this character but it doesn't change the fact that this Lutheran confession is also not truth in final instance.

At least you admit your inability and for that I thank you. Maybe one day when you decide to pull your head from the sand you'll look more deeply into say the ecclesiastical beliefs of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and maybe a few of the southern baptist traditions. You will find the patriarchal cultural wisdom you seek.

(06-16-2017 04:57 AM)Mage Wrote:  The argument about Kaballah being recorded in 16th century betrays an individual who has not even given a serious thought of checking it out. It is not that important when it was recorded if what it teaches is simply so true and applicable in real life. Torah and all of the Bible starts making much more sense with this knowledge then without it and that is thousands of years old scripture. The argument about oral tradition being unreliable betrays you as the true atheist in this discussion, it betrays you as not believing that the veracity of teaching may be verified in spirit and mystic experience, in unity with God. All of this is esoteric and there is no need to attend temple, which is impossible btw because there is no temple today. Recognizing Kaballah doesn't mean recognizing Judaism which is a superficial teaching and not esoteric teaching, just like Christianity. Do not mistake Kaballah as being a thing reserved for Jews, in fact most Jews are afraid to touch it and many people who practice it are not Jews and from this the western occult tradition follows.

The origin of its written source and background as an oral tradition passed down by generations is immensely important in understanding the kaballah, why it was written, and its function. To not do so is disingenuous and puts you on the same level of those Christians you despise who look at the bible as the literal and unquestionable word of God.

Once again, you seem to fail to remember my previous mention in this very thread that I've read the kaballah. The fact the kaballah serves as the foundation of many modern magick new age traditions such as the Golden Dawn, Wiccanism, as well as other various neopagan groups was well worth the time and effort it took to read it.

I find it the height of comedy that you equate my distrust of such a lately written religious document with atheism. At least i'm intellectually, spiritually, and theologically honest enough to discuss the dubiety of my beloved gnostic texts. From your persistence in this argument, I doubt you're able to do the same with your Kaballah.

If salvation is the spiritual food of the soul, mystical and esoteric lessons are the vitamins. You cannot be one with God on mystical and esoteric elements alone all while denying that you need salvation. It doesn't fly in Christianity and it sure as hell doesn't go anywhere in Judaism.

Here's a challenge for you which I know you won't take: reach out to an Orthodox Rabbi with your beliefs on the Kaballah and explain your position. Post here what he says back.

(06-16-2017 04:57 AM)Mage Wrote:  The question of this thread is whether Christian society is compatible with red pill knowledge about man's carnal nature and it isn't. Christianity will always try to hide this nature behind a false equivalence of good vs. evil, when no such thing exists in reality. There is no good vs. evil, there is the carnal vs. human(divine) only. I only mentioned Kaballah because it too believes in this. You may try to backwards engineer Christianity and claim that you are a Chrsitian still because you believe in Jesus, just in an unique and intellectual way, but mass Christianity will never accept such beliefs and therefore it is incompatible with Christian society as the OP asked it in the question of this thread.

Whatever floats your spiritual boat (((Mage))).

Quote

Not sure if this is precisely relevant to the OP's question, but one critical flaw I see in Christian teachings is the principle of Universalism. In terms of ethics this is the position that rules of morality apply to all universally, for example there is no specific gender or race or whatever for whom murder suddenly becomes ethical. In theological terms its the idea that any hominid that can produce vocalizations sufficient to pass the Turing Test must have a soul.

Applied justly, moral universalism seems like a pretty good idea, and I certainly wouldn't want to live in a society that assumed the opposite, such as an Islamic society where your human rights depend on having the correct religion. The problem that arises, as I see it, is that this ethical stance seems to rapidly devolve into straight up cucking when you combine it with the theological version of universalism that's insisting that everyone has a soul, the modern interpretation of which is that every human is treated as equally sapient.

What I'm getting at is that treating everyone equally rapidly turns into insisting everyone is equal, which ironically results in unequal treatment as you inevitably derive our favorite social justice tenet that all the shitheads in society were made that way by white male oppression. This is why Christianity nowadays is cucked Churchianity, they eat up that socialist victimhood narrative like the delicious spoonfuls of shit that it is. 200 years ago you had Christians practicing universalism, except that they still insisted that if you were a big-lipped ape-man from Oonga-Boonga you still had to learn the bible and put on a nice suit and tie for God to love you. Now every religion is a path to God, even if it involves a goat and a large jar of lube.

I have no idea whether or not it's possible to sustain Christianity in a eucivic state indefinitely, but it seems like there's just a natural progression toward increasingly hippie attitudes until you have a society of sissies. Vox Day was recently posting about how even the baptists, the old moral majority bible thumpers that thought D&D was satanic, are adopting social justice moral dogmas now. Now I'm not saying that every Christian nowadays is a pussy, but what I am saying is that most adherents are, and the ones who aren't are just ignoring the cucked preaching or coming up with their own personal version of Christianity that's compatible with having a pair of testicles.

Before you get on my ass for bashing Christianity I think the same problem applies to modern atheism, which is just a secular version of Christian ethics repackaged with a big steaming pile of Marxist bullshit to make it even worse. (Especially once they insist they must be right because of their interpretation of "Science!") Ideally I would like to see a society driven by rational acceptance of human differences and biological drivers, and I don't care if you explain these principles in religious or scientific terms. Whatever works to convince people is fine by me.

Quote

You are really an angry and frustrated person Beast1. Why do you take my criticism of Christianity so personal? Why do you insult me? Is this the teaching of Jesus and working of Holy spirit?

Also, you seem to willfully misunderstand me to come up with subtle insults - I am not a Jew and not a follower of Talmud. I only like Kaballah because you can percieve reality with it and do magic. I don't like the fact that it is Jewish myself but it is without a doubt functioning and real. The truth is Kaballah is not neceserily Jewish, but rather the fact that this one nation uses it has made them the Jews a.k.a. the most smart and covertly powerful race on this planet. Shunning Kaballah as Jewish is wrong, rather non-jews should study it. Shunning Kaballah as Jewish is like native americans refusing to use saddle and firearms because they are "white man's tools" and therefore purposefully losing combat by refusing to use superior technology. Kaballah sees roots of all Abrahamic religions and it allows jews to manipulate Christian whites and Muslim Arabs like cattle, because they understand these derivative religions better then Christians and Muslims themselves.

You shouldn't be surprised that your words have little meaning to me. Once a person has seen power of certain teachings in real life, be it Game or Kaballah, there is no way he can fall back in ignorance.

Quote

Now I know how Littledark feels.

Quote

(06-17-2017 12:49 AM)Mage Wrote:  You are really an angry and frustrated person Beast1. Why do you take my criticism of Christianity so personal? Why do you insult me? Is this the teaching of Jesus and working of Holy spirit?

Also, you seem to willfully misunderstand me to come up with subtle insults - I am not a Jew and not a follower of Talmud. I only like Kaballah because you can percieve reality with it and do magic. I don't like the fact that it is Jewish myself but it is without a doubt functioning and real. The truth is Kaballah is not neceserily Jewish, but rather the fact that this one nation uses it has made them the Jews a.k.a. the most smart and covertly powerful race on this planet. Shunning Kaballah as Jewish is wrong, rather non-jews should study it. Shunning Kaballah as Jewish is like native americans refusing to use saddle and firearms because they are "white man's tools" and therefore purposefully losing combat by refusing to use superior technology. Kaballah sees roots of all Abrahamic religions and it allows jews to manipulate Christian whites and Muslim Arabs like cattle, because they understand these derivative religions better then Christians and Muslims themselves.

You shouldn't be surprised that your words have little meaning to me. Once a person has seen power of certain teachings in real life, be it Game or Kaballah, there is no way he can fall back in ignorance.

If it quacks like a duck, feels like a duck, and looks like a duck it must be a dog. Makes total sense (((Mage))).

I've made my point and feel good about it. Continue on with your Judaism Lite.

Quote

Beast your a sad little man who makes totally wrong conclusions, since you made wrong conclusion about me (I a pagan, half-blond and about as non-Jewish as you can be) I doubt you ability to make good conclusions about faith or anything else. The fact that I recognize that Kaballah is valuable and practice some of it does not make me jewish, similarly the fact that I recognize that Yoga is valuable and practice some of it doesnt make me Indian. I am a spiritual truth seeker who seeks truth in various forms and believes God is bigger than any single religion. I have no trust in your ability to understand any spiritual insights, if you misjudge me and attack me with hate and anger for no reason but your misguided prejudece. As a Christian and representative of your group, you make Christians look really rush to make conclusions, nearsighted and witch hunting fanatics. How can you convert and even leave a good impression on a person if you accuse him of being something he is not? Think about that.

Ok, this dialoge with Beast1 is over from me not to derail the thread further.

But to answer Leonard's quastion - as you can see Leonard there can be little discussion with Christians - Even a smart one like Beast1, who I presume knows game, is still suspectable to witch hunting and can be paranoid and full of hate when something does not compute to his beliefs. So despite many guys saying otherwise and constructing theological theories how it could go together you cannot really bring red pill truths to Christian attention practically - it will take just one of their group, likely a much stupder and louder individial then honourable Beast1 to brand you a heretic and you will be labeled as such and dismissed and met with hate and prejudice.

Quote