Post: #1

Hey guys, I need advice on the following situation which has just cropped up: I met up with a girl in early December last year (early thirties, academic at university) after a mutual friend introduced us via e-mail. This girl’s currently writing a Ph.D., but in English and wanted somebody to go through a part of it and give her some feedback on her use of English. Anyway, when I turn up in the cafe to meet this girl for the first time, she’s quite nice-looking (a solid 7) although a little austere, in the typical manner of many north German girls. We spend a good couple of hours chatting about what we’re up to in our lives at the moment but I get the impression that this girl is much more focused on recruiting me as a chump who’ll copy-edit her thesis for free, rather than as a potential boyfriend/fuck buddy. After the first meeting, I send her an e-mail a couple of days later asking her out to the Christmas market and for a drink, but she fobs me off with the excuse that she’s too busy. A week later, I fire off another mail, asking her out again: The same story, but this time telling me that she’ll be busy for the whole of December but that we could meet up in January/February. I don’t bother responding to her anymore and mentally next her but have a sneaking feeling that when she’s written more work for her thesis she’ll come crawling back out of the woodwork again, asking me to meet up. Sure enough, this is what happened a couple of days ago and my dilemma is now, what to do? I’ve already agreed to meet up with her on Saturday for „a coffee and a walk“, so that bit is settled.

On the one hand, she passes the boner test with flying colours (i.e. perfectly slim, leggy, quite elegant, et.c.) and I desperately need to get laid given that I’m languishing in a 3 year dry spell. On the other hand, I feel acutely the risk that she’ll try to use me for a task that would otherwise cost her big bucks if she had to pay out of her own pocket.

On the other hand, part of is hoping - probably foolishly - that she might be interested in hooking up, too. She told me when we meet that her ex was doing research in the same area as me at university, which she found somewhat curious.

Is there a way of finding out whether this girl’s just a time-waster and only interested in getting a free copy-editing job out of me, but without any intention to pay out sexually? My thinking thus far is to escalate on the second date and use this as the test to decide the matter.

What do you guys think?

Post: #2

So you haven't done any work for her yet?

Ask her when she'll need you to go over the thesis. When she replies, send her a quote, whatever your happy price is.

She is not the end of your dry spell. She is a painful continuation of it. At least get paid.

Post: #3

Go with the escalating, you have invested some time in her get something out of it.

Post: #4

Has she explicitly stated the meeting would be to help with the English parts? If she has then she doesn't see you as a potential mate or maybe she already has one and is just being polite so you help her for free.

If you really don't care about losing this girl as a friend my suggestion is to invite her over to your place to do the work. When she arrives give her a glass of wine and relax.
Tease and escalate then go in for the kiss. By this time you'll know pretty well if she's even remotely interested in you sexually. If she rejects you and stands up to make it absolutely clear she's not interested. Pretend to be getting tired and say to her that you'll meet up at a coffee shop later in the week to finish up the work.
At which point you've gotten her out of your house and you can just ignore her emails going forward.
Harsh? Probably.
Either way you needed to know if she was worth going after for the bang and you even said it yourself that you get the feeling that she's just looking for some beta guy to use for his English language skill.
Even if she gets upset and cries because you wont help, try not to feel bad because for a woman her age and as attractive as she is there's probably a personality quirk or two that repels men from locking her down in a LTR.
None of that is your problem because if the shoe were on the other foot, do you think she would do the same for you? Probably not.

Post: #5

So many red flags in this post.

I hate those super educated girls, not because I am intimidated by them but because school (career) is their life. In this case, we can assume she was actually busy with school and studying.

Since you are not a tutor, I wouldn't help anymore with her studies. I would simply go dark, I wouldn't invite her over and I wouldn't respond to her text/email.

She only got back to you because she needed help, well you need help as well. (Sex).

If she was somewhat interested, having a drink out of decency wouldn't have been a big deal.

Also you have helped her already, don't be a chump and help her again.

P.S - glad to see you made the move back to Germany.

Post: #6

Just to confirm - you've done one lot of proof reading already, and she is definitely going to give you more at the next meet?

Post: #7

So she was busy the whole December? hmmm. Some times our mind tricks us, making us think that maybe if we spend enough time giving the help she wants, there is a possibility she'll return the favor in a sexual frame, but chances are almost 0%.

This because there are 3 scenarios: a) She is interesting on you, then she will go out with you regardless her studies. b) She pretends she is interested on you to get what she wants, then she goes out with you. c) She wants to get your help without even pretending she is interested, then she won't go out with you or will have excuses.

Which is the one happening right now?

Read "Bang", then "day bang" and start applying that to finish that dry spell.

Post: #8

I was reading some articles for my business classes while reading this. Seems relevant as fuck.

"Breakthrough Negotiation
In Getting Past No, William Ury outlines ve steps for negotiating with a di cult opponent, whether it’s a boss, coworker, customer, salesclerk, or spouse.

1. Don’t react: Go to the balcony. When someone is di cult, your natural reaction might be to get angry—or to give in. Instead, take yourself mentally to a place where you can look down objectively on the dispute and plan your response. Anytime you nd your hot buttons getting pushed, try “going to the balcony.”
2. Disarm them by stepping to their side. One of the most powerful steps to take—and one of the most di cult—is to try to understand the other person’s point of view. Ask questions and show genuine curiosity.
3. Change the game: Don’t reject—reframe. You don’t have to play along with a di cult person’s game. Instead of locking into a battle of will or xed positions, consider putting a new frame on the negotiation.
4. Make it easy to say yes. Build a golden bridge. Look for ways to help your opponent save face and feel that he’s getting his way, at least in some matters. Using objective standards of fairness can help create a bridge between your interests.
5. Make it hard to say no. Bring them to their senses, not their knees. Use your power and in uence to help educate your opponent about the situation. If she understands the consequences and your alternatives, she may be open to reason."

Post: #9

She is using you as a chump and it seems you don't have much of a chance, but you can still try. The fact the you got introduced via e-mail does not help. So, I would do the following:

Make yourself unavailable.
Tell her that you are very busy this month with work/school/whatever and that you are preparing for a trip to whichever country/region you think she may be interested in.
Tell her, in a week or so that something got postponed and you can meet her. Not on a friday/weekend day. A thursday or wednesday for example. Choose a place near your house (minimal effort).
Talk about your fake trip, escalate, don't talk about her work, if her assignment comes up switch to English and talk a while then tell her she is proficient enough.


Anyway, in my opinion or putting to much effort on a girl that seems to me has no real interest in you. Abundance mentality friend, abundance!
In Deutschland, you can surely use day game to your advantage.

Post: #10

(02-10-2017 05:34 AM)Feldeinsamkeit Wrote:  We spend a good couple of hours chatting about what we’re up to in our lives at the moment but I get the impression that this girl is much more focused on recruiting me as a chump who’ll copy-edit her thesis for free, rather than as a potential boyfriend/fuck buddy. After the first meeting, I send her an e-mail a couple of days later [..]

What do you guys think?

I think your chance with her was with the freebie meeting. Having realised she was attractive and wanted to bang her, that was the right time for you to turn on the charm and bounce her for drinks to another venue (or at least try) and start chatting about non-academia stuff and make it covertly clear to her you were sexually interested in her - touching her hands, hair, deep eye-contact, etc. She would get the message. If she wouldn't recoil from physical touch, then escalate to a kiss if possible, then seed another date at your place (cooking?) on the day.

Instead, you didn't even get her number because you were, probably, too afraid to ask, fearing rejection. I infer, then, that you played it super neutral during the meet up and put yourself firmly in LJBF category. Following up with an email a few days later was just a nail to your coffin. The covert message from you was:

I'm attracted to you but was so afraid to express it on the day so now, from the distant safety of my home, I'm just writing up this email to you in a scant hope you'll see I'm actually not a nice guy who wants to help with your PhD stuff you but who wants to fuck you. Hard.

Her reply was a natural consequence of your inaction. Remember the correct frame: man acts, girl reacts. You took no risk. Don't forget - nice guys finish last. Leave and learn, if next opportunity presents itself with another girl in a similar vein, if communicating covertly too difficult, just take the risk and make it clear:

"I understand a friend wanted me to help you but I find your looks too distracting for the job. How about we get a drink, and you'll find someone else to do that for you?"

I can imagine that you are, at best, in damage management mode. Perhaps you'll end up at the same house party or a bar. If that happens, ignore her completely but make sure she sees you with other girls all over you. Then there's a chance, through pre-selection, she might re-evaluate your SMV. But for now, I think, chasing up her is not a viable option unless going for a hail-mary, and, as Kinjutsu, suggsted, inviting her straight to your house, preferably late in the evening, get her big glass of wine an make a fun conversation, have her sitting next to you and escalate like a mofo with expectation she will have none of it.

Post: #11

(02-10-2017 05:34 AM)Feldeinsamkeit Wrote:  We spend a good couple of hours chatting about what we’re up to in our lives at the moment but I get the impression that this girl is much more focused on recruiting me as a chump who’ll copy-edit her thesis for free, rather than as a potential boyfriend/fuck buddy.

You answered your own question.

Do NOT contact her again.

Also next time, don't spend several hours in a café with a girl.

If the conversation is good, move to another location where you can have a drink and it is more intimate.

You should only spend an hour at most in the café.

I bet you told her everything she needs to know about you, there is no mystery left.

I believe Roosh has covered this in one of his books.

Post: #12

All you need is to tell that you can meet her after your daily prayer in the local mosque.

Post: #13

(02-10-2017 06:21 AM)kinjutsu Wrote:  Has she explicitly stated the meeting would be to help with the English parts? If she has then she doesn't see you as a potential mate or maybe she already has one and is just being polite so you help her for free.

If you really don't care about losing this girl as a friend my suggestion is to invite her over to your place to do the work. When she arrives give her a glass of wine and relax.
Tease and escalate then go in for the kiss. By this time you'll know pretty well if she's even remotely interested in you sexually. If she rejects you and stands up to make it absolutely clear she's not interested. Pretend to be getting tired and say to her that you'll meet up at a coffee shop later in the week to finish up the work.
At which point you've gotten her out of your house and you can just ignore her emails going forward.
Harsh? Probably.
Either way you needed to know if she was worth going after for the bang and you even said it yourself that you get the feeling that she's just looking for some beta guy to use for his English language skill.
Even if she gets upset and cries because you wont help, try not to feel bad because for a woman her age and as attractive as she is there's probably a personality quirk or two that repels men from locking her down in a LTR.
None of that is your problem because if the shoe were on the other foot, do you think she would do the same for you? Probably not.

No, she hasn't. She basically wrote me an e-mail out of the blue, asking whether I'd like to meet up, "for a coffee and to go for a walk" which, I shit you not, reflects the precise content of the last e-mail I sent her. But there was no mention in her last mention about wanting any work done.

But, of course, the idea that a good-looking girl I met once 3 months ago suddenly has decided that she wants to hook up with me is ridiculous, about as likely as somebody coming to my door and saying, "Here, mate, here's 10,000 euros in cash. Have a nice day." It just doesn't happen to me. I know what her angle is, for sure, so that's not what my question is about. My question here is (a) What possibilities are compatible with it (b) How to respond to it.

For example, I can't entirely exclude the possibility that she might be open to a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship with me - however loose - if it means that she's got a guy on tap to help out with her work. Especially so, since we're both academically-minded and on the same intellectual wavelength, although I strongly suspect I'm succumbing to wishful thinking here. Incidentally, I'm not fixated by any means on wanting her as a GF and would be happy with a fuckbuddy arrangement should that be on the table as a quid pro quo for my services.

The point in all of my thinking is as follows: I want, at the very least, some sexual pay-off from my next interactions with her and I want to avoid a situation where I end up being the beta schmuck who pliantly does what she asks in the vague hope that she'll pay out in the future. I've been around the block enough times to know that if a girl doesn't get sexual with a guy in the first couple of dates, she isn't going to get sexual at all.

Post: #14

(02-10-2017 12:25 PM)Wreckingball Wrote:  She is using you as a chump and it seems you don't have much of a chance, but you can still try. The fact the you got introduced via e-mail does not help. So, I would do the following:

Make yourself unavailable.
Tell her that you are very busy this month with work/school/whatever and that you are preparing for a trip to whichever country/region you think she may be interested in.
Tell her, in a week or so that something got postponed and you can meet her. Not on a friday/weekend day. A thursday or wednesday for example. Choose a place near your house (minimal effort).
Talk about your fake trip, escalate, don't talk about her work, if her assignment comes up switch to English and talk a while then tell her she is proficient enough.

Anyway, in my opinion or putting to much effort on a girl that seems to me has no real interest in you. Abundance mentality friend, abundance!
In Deutschland, you can surely use day game to your advantage.

Well, I've already been doing this since she sent me her last-but-one e-mail, where I basically just went ghost on her. Now she's knocked on my window again, I'm curious to see what I can salvage from this situation.

Post: #15

(02-10-2017 10:30 AM)Nordwand Wrote:  Just to confirm - you've done one lot of proof reading already, and she is definitely going to give you more at the next meet?

No, the only copy-editing I've done for her is to go through 8 pages of text that she brought to the first (and thus far only) meeting that I've had with her. As for whether she'll have more text up her sleeve for me to take a butcher's at tomorrow, is anybody's guess.

Post: #16

(02-10-2017 12:35 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 05:34 AM)Feldeinsamkeit Wrote:  We spend a good couple of hours chatting about what we’re up to in our lives at the moment but I get the impression that this girl is much more focused on recruiting me as a chump who’ll copy-edit her thesis for free, rather than as a potential boyfriend/fuck buddy.

You answered your own question.

Do NOT contact her again.

Also next time, don't spend several hours in a café with a girl.

If the conversation is good, move to another location where you can have a drink and it is more intimate.

You should only spend an hour at most in the café.

I bet you told her everything she needs to know about you, there is no mystery left.

I believe Roosh has covered this in one of his books.

Thanks for your input, Rudebwoy. I've been thinking this over earlier in the evening and I've come to the following conclusion: I'll gonna flip the script in that whereas she'll be assuming that she's going to encounter a supplicating, academic Mr Nice Guy tomorrow who's going to go through the same get-to-know you motions that I did last time round and that all she needs to do is bat her eyelashes a couple of times and sit through it and she'll get done whatever it is that she wants doing, I'll be spitting hail mary cocky arsehole game from the minute we meet up again. I'll have nothing to lose by doing so and might even be able to turn this ship around, although I'm not banking on it.

What I strongly suspect is that she'll want to send me a file over the internet after tomorrow's meet up for me to look at in my own time. If she tries pulling this stunt, I'll tell her straight that I need to go through it line-by-line with her in person in order to get clarity in a timely fashion, just like we did last time and then invite her to my flat and get her tipsy on the vino. If she baulks at that, we'll both know the deal and it will save me from getting fucked around any further.

Post: #17

(02-10-2017 04:16 PM)Feldeinsamkeit Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 10:30 AM)Nordwand Wrote:  Just to confirm - you've done one lot of proof reading already, and she is definitely going to give you more at the next meet?

No, the only copy-editing I've done for her is to go through 8 pages of text that she brought to the first (and thus far only) meeting that I've had with her. As for whether she'll have more text up her sleeve for me to take a butcher's at tomorrow, is anybody's guess.

This sounds better than I originally thought; you've done very little for her so far and, to be honest, I'm sure she could get any checking done without contacting you, given that she's at university. Go into this without any preconceptions, and lose the negativity before tomorrow, because at present you're a self fulfilling prophecy. One way or the other though, get things sorted - absolutely no platonic 3rd date.

Good luck!

Post: #18

She already blew you off twice. Why are you still chasing after her?

I think your time and energy would be better spent pursuing other, more promising prospects.

Post: #19

(02-10-2017 04:43 PM)Nordwand Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 04:16 PM)Feldeinsamkeit Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 10:30 AM)Nordwand Wrote:  Just to confirm - you've done one lot of proof reading already, and she is definitely going to give you more at the next meet?

No, the only copy-editing I've done for her is to go through 8 pages of text that she brought to the first (and thus far only) meeting that I've had with her. As for whether she'll have more text up her sleeve for me to take a butcher's at tomorrow, is anybody's guess.

This sounds better than I originally thought; you've done very little for her so far and, to be honest, I'm sure she could get any checking done without contacting you, given that she's at university. Go into this without any preconceptions, and lose the negativity before tomorrow, because at present you're a self fulfilling prophecy. One way or the other though, get things sorted - absolutely no platonic 3rd date.

Good luck!

Cheers for that. I wouldn't say that I'm carrying any negativity going into this. My only concern is to quickly resolve the interaction with this girl to go in one of two directions: Either fuck me or fuck off.

Post: #20

(02-10-2017 04:44 PM)jselysianeagle Wrote:  She already blew you off twice. Why are you still chasing after her?

I think your time and energy would be better spent pursuing other, more promising prospects.

Yes, that's a fair point you made and one that has weighed on my own mind two, hence this post. But she's the one that got back in touch after 3 months of silence, not me, asking for a meet up.

Post: #21

(02-10-2017 04:10 PM)Feldeinsamkeit Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 06:21 AM)kinjutsu Wrote:  Has she explicitly stated the meeting would be to help with the English parts? If she has then she doesn't see you as a potential mate or maybe she already has one and is just being polite so you help her for free.

If you really don't care about losing this girl as a friend my suggestion is to invite her over to your place to do the work. When she arrives give her a glass of wine and relax.
Tease and escalate then go in for the kiss. By this time you'll know pretty well if she's even remotely interested in you sexually. If she rejects you and stands up to make it absolutely clear she's not interested. Pretend to be getting tired and say to her that you'll meet up at a coffee shop later in the week to finish up the work.
At which point you've gotten her out of your house and you can just ignore her emails going forward.
Harsh? Probably.
Either way you needed to know if she was worth going after for the bang and you even said it yourself that you get the feeling that she's just looking for some beta guy to use for his English language skill.
Even if she gets upset and cries because you wont help, try not to feel bad because for a woman her age and as attractive as she is there's probably a personality quirk or two that repels men from locking her down in a LTR.
None of that is your problem because if the shoe were on the other foot, do you think she would do the same for you? Probably not.

No, she hasn't. She basically wrote me an e-mail out of the blue, asking whether I'd like to meet up, "for a coffee and to go for a walk" which, I shit you not, reflects the precise content of the last e-mail I sent But there was no mention in her last mention about wanting any work done.

This is a entirely different scenario, game on my friend.

You will have to play this smart, no sitting down with her for hours unless it is at your place.

I would crack a joke early in the date asking her if she is using YOU for English lessons, that would let her know that you aren't a chump.

If the date isn't going the way you like, eject and tell her you have to go now because you have an early morning appointment.

I had some girl try a similar shit with me, she just came out and said she needs me to do her business plan for her business. I laughed and said I will assist her on doing it, also what is it in for me. I straight out asked her if she irons shirts.

Post: #22

(02-10-2017 05:14 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 04:10 PM)Feldeinsamkeit Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 06:21 AM)kinjutsu Wrote:  Has she explicitly stated the meeting would be to help with the English parts? If she has then she doesn't see you as a potential mate or maybe she already has one and is just being polite so you help her for free.

If you really don't care about losing this girl as a friend my suggestion is to invite her over to your place to do the work. When she arrives give her a glass of wine and relax.
Tease and escalate then go in for the kiss. By this time you'll know pretty well if she's even remotely interested in you sexually. If she rejects you and stands up to make it absolutely clear she's not interested. Pretend to be getting tired and say to her that you'll meet up at a coffee shop later in the week to finish up the work.
At which point you've gotten her out of your house and you can just ignore her emails going forward.
Harsh? Probably.
Either way you needed to know if she was worth going after for the bang and you even said it yourself that you get the feeling that she's just looking for some beta guy to use for his English language skill.
Even if she gets upset and cries because you wont help, try not to feel bad because for a woman her age and as attractive as she is there's probably a personality quirk or two that repels men from locking her down in a LTR.
None of that is your problem because if the shoe were on the other foot, do you think she would do the same for you? Probably not.

No, she hasn't. She basically wrote me an e-mail out of the blue, asking whether I'd like to meet up, "for a coffee and to go for a walk" which, I shit you not, reflects the precise content of the last e-mail I sent But there was no mention in her last mention about wanting any work done.

This is a entirely different scenario, game on my friend.

You will have to play this smart, no sitting down with her for hours unless it is at your place.

I would crack a joke early in the date asking her if she is using YOU for English lessons, that would let her know that you aren't a chump.

If the date isn't going the way you like, eject and tell her you have to go now because you have an early morning appointment.

I had some girl try a similar shit with me, she just came out and said she needs me to do her business plan for her business. I laughed and said I will assist her on doing it, also what is it in for me. I straight out asked her if she irons shirts.

Well, not quite, Rudebwoy. I forgot to mention in my OP, that after the first meeting had ended with her, she asked me, "So, how do we want to do this then? It would be good if you could take a look at my work every couple of months and give me feedback. What would you want in return?"

Anyway, I put the question back to her and asked, "Well, what would you suggest as payment?, with a wry grin, which I hoped she would understand as a quid-pro-quo that I'd copy-edit her whole thesis if there was a panty-lowering deal on the table. I'm not sure she quite got my hint but her reply to this was, "Well, how about I pay for the drinks next time?" to which I said, OK, it's a deal, for better or worse.

Yes, I know, looking back maybe this was betamax, but I was worried that she'd just walk if I told her I wanted paying in cash. I was thinking it was a way of dangling a carrot in front of her and keeping her in the game. Anyway, this seems to have worked given that she's come back to me with a request at another meet up. My only problem, though, is that she's almost certainly playing the same game with me and so the question is now which one of us is going to get their fingers burned playing this game of chicken. I don't mind going for the kiss, leg rub, [insert sordid make-out attempt or salacious remark here], since I feel like I've probably already lost respect with this broad anyway. But, I'm also not looking to self-sabotage, either, since if there's a bang to be salvaged from this, I don't want to pass that up.

Post: #23

You already know she's using you and it's very likely since you already made a "deal" with her expectations are set. I would be sexually agressive with this girl (constant escalation) in hope for the bang. If she doesn't reciprocate at all then leave.

Sounds like you've already made a lot of mistakes. It's okay it happens to the best of us. Just know that because of your past behaviour it's likely she doesn't want to have sex with you and it would take a mountain of effort to undry that sahara of a vagina of hers. Accept it and do better next time. There are many many 7s in the world out there who will have sex with you just for having good game and being you.

Post: #24

^Ah, so it is a meeting for you to check out her homework.

For the fun of it, I would reschedule it for Sunday. Like someone suggested, meet her on a off night. Meeting her on a Saturday just screams that you don't have a social life. Remember, most of the game that is played is just bluffing.

The problem with foreign girls is that they don't always understand the nuances or the subtle meanings. I almost think you should of told her you want sex, of course you cannot say that directly.

What do you know about her? You sat with her for hours and she never mentioned a boyfriend.

Did she inquire about you and ask questions?

What did your friend say to her about you? I hope it wasn't you are the lonely Englishman that is new in town looking friends.

I would meet close to your place or tell her to save money, bring a bottle of red wine to your place. So if she comes over, she must suspect something is going to happen. If she says no I am on the period or some other BS, you haven't lost anything.

Also get this whole beta/alpha thing out of your head.

Don't be too hard on yourself, you just have to tweak your game.

Post: #25

One of the problem is that you invested too much in her by thinking and writing here a long post making a big deal of it. Just scale it down. She's just some girl. That's all.