Post: #1

Initially, I was going to let this slide and not write this, but after it was brought to me attention by fellow RVFer, Vinny, that someone from the forum copied verbatim one of my datasheets, turned it into a Youtube video which garnered 20k+ views, I figured it may be worth a discussion.

No amount of ability is of the slightest avail without honour - Andrew Carnegie

What is a man without integrity?

Integrity is an intangible that will stick with you for life. You may succeed, you may fail, your life may turn upside down - but integrity is something that lasts forever. When you're known as a man with integrity, people listen. It's the old adage ' practice what you preach'.

While this recent incident brought upon my desire to write this, I've experienced it in the workforce as well. You call tell pretty quickly when someone lacks integrity. In business meetings, they're the ones that say anything to get a client - the ones who flat out lie. Then after signing the client, they come up to you smiling as if you should be proud. I understand it's business - but there's a line that needs to be drawn somewhere, and no one knows where this line is yet.

Integrity seems to be a rare commodity nowadays. If you someone with integrity, you reward them, praise them, even give them a raise for being "honest." In today's age, when "the end justifies the means" is propagated by so many, what ever happened to integrity, and living be a certain set of values? Men seem to be tossing integrity, honesty, and moral principles out of the window, in order to achieve their goals - by any means necessary.

I live by a certain set of values, and believe that every man should. No one is perfect, everyone makes mistakes, every strays from what they believe in, but what matters is that own up to your mistakes.

A man without integrity is nothing. Without integrity, a mans words mean nothing.

A few of the convictions I live by:

- Don't say you can do something if you can't.
- Don't be late. If you set an appointment, meeting - be there on time.
- Don't gossip, or talk ill of someone when they aren't present. This is plebeian.
- Don't pass someone's work off as your own.
- Admit when you're wrong.

Again, no one is perfect. Admittedly, I've fallen, and have done the opposite of what I believe. Own your mistakes gents.

Anyways, I'm just curious as to your thoughts on integrity, which values you live by, and why it seems to be lacking nowadays.

Post: #2

I agree with your...but a Carnegie quote about integrity...?

Post: #3

@Crash: I am thinking you are thinking about a wrong Carnegie. Deil Carnegie who is the father of 2 facedness.

It is funny actually that I stumbled upon that video. What triggered my attention was him mentioning the student clothing then the 3-10$. I checked your sheet and voila here was exact copy in the video.

I bet the guy is a lurker.

Post: #4

You can really get under someones skin if you show good integrity while they don't.

My boss could do better in this department. Hes terrible to he honest. Says yes to stuff that he knows is impossible. Says stuff is finished when it's not (backfired when he said he finished something when we couldn't even make it). Forgets appointments where clients have flown across the country to meet him, every job is finished behind schedule (because he lied about how long it would take to get the contract).

He a typical yes man. Say anything to get what you want.
He gets a lot done and makes good money, but it's just dirty.

He hates that I don't lie when a customer asks something and I tell them the truth. I think it subconsciously lifts the veil on his own character which makes him uncomfortable.

It's a shame that some environments require this to make progress in today's economy. If everyone is bullshitting you'll lose out if you don't.

Post: #5

You are really putting up some interesting threads.
I think integrity consists of two parts: What you do to others and what you do to yourself.

What you do to others are those things you mentioned: Being on time, dont gossip etc.

What you do to yourself is equally important and is also measurements of a man with integrity, for me those are : Valuing my time properly, decide myself what i want to do and set my own rules for what i accept and not in myself and others etc.

I have started lists with both those parts and i try to live by them, and also in that lists behaviors that i think is good to live by but doesnt necessarily have to do with integrity, such as: Remember peoples names, dont apologize unless called for and only try to help people if they ask for it.

Post: #6

I was taught early on by someone very dear to me that there are two things in Life you can never get back:

your Time
and
your Reputation


Always keep that in mind

Post: #7

(09-16-2016 05:56 PM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  I agree with your...but a Carnegie quote about integrity...?

Yeah, you mean Dale. Andrew lived his life on the path of integrity, and philanthropy.

(09-16-2016 06:08 PM)Vinny Wrote:  @Crash: I am thinking you are thinking about a wrong Carnegie. Deil Carnegie who is the father of 2 facedness.

It is funny actually that I stumbled upon that video. What triggered my attention was him mentioning the student clothing then the 3-10$. I checked your sheet and voila here was exact copy in the video.

I bet the guy is a lurker.

I found out who he is.

I'd prefer him to come clean and PM me, so I don't need to mention him by name on the forum. Everyone makes mistakes.

(09-16-2016 06:25 PM)Sooth Wrote:  It's a shame that some environments require this to make progress in today's economy. If everyone is bullshitting you'll lose out if you don't.

Exactly. You're forced between a rock and a hard place. Play by their rules - join the club, but know that deep down you lack principles, or stick to your principles and miss out.

Post: #8

I will echo Casanovas statements and though it can be argued that it easily boils down to cultural morality(household,family,school,pop&folk lotr.etc) it also serves to explain how the concept of honor developed.

If you betray your ethics,you won t be able to hide your transgression from yourself.
If you have none,its more likely that when you slip the impact will be harder

Post: #9

(09-16-2016 05:49 PM)WeekendCasanova Wrote:  A few of the convictions I live by:

- Don't gossip, or talk ill of someone when they aren't present. This is plebeian.
- Admit when you're wrong.

Doesn't Trump break these two rules constantly?

Post: #10

First off, everyone's a hypocrite. No matter how honest or virtuous you are, you're full of shit.

I don't mean that in a bad way. It's just how the human mind works. There are endless examples of this. People shame thieves, but jack some pens and towels from the hotel. I personally don't steal anything and view people who do as low lives. But I download music illegally to put onto my mp3 player for the gym.

We're all hypocrites.

With that contradiction out of the way, I do strongly believe in integrity.

I'm simply not comfortable lying to peoples' faces to improve my lot in life. I work in sales and know guys who lie through their teeth to make the sale. I close a lot of sales, but I do my best to never lie or deceive people. One guy I work with just starts making shit up depending on what people say. If they have kids, he has kids. If they're married, his gf is suddenly his wife in conversation. It's a weak way to live your life.

If someone has kids, I relate to them by talking about my nieces and nephew. I'm not going to make up fictional characters to build rapport. He closes a ton of sales, but a lot of them cancel and he loses money by discounting the price too much. I make fewer sales overall but they are solid deals and people don't cancel on me. In the end, the numbers are the same. But in my mind, I get to keep my integrity and sleep soundly at night knowing I'm not bullshitting people.

Post: #11

(09-17-2016 01:33 AM)Suits Wrote:  

(09-16-2016 05:49 PM)WeekendCasanova Wrote:  A few of the convictions I live by:

- Don't gossip, or talk ill of someone when they aren't present. This is plebeian.
- Admit when you're wrong.

Doesn't Trump break these two rules constantly?

Yes, he does.

For all of his 'alpha' traits, he has a lot of faults as well, but when it comes down to it - he's simply superior to Clinton (I don't even know if she knows what the word 'integrity' even means).

Post: #12

(09-16-2016 05:49 PM)WeekendCasanova Wrote:  [...]

I live by a certain set of values, and believe that every man should. No one is perfect, everyone makes mistakes, every strays from what they believe in, but what matters is that own up to your mistakes.

A man without integrity is nothing. Without integrity, a mans words mean nothing.

A few of the convictions I live by:

- Don't say you can do something if you can't.
- Don't be late. If you set an appointment, meeting - be there on time.
- Don't gossip, or talk ill of someone when they aren't present. This is plebeian.
- Don't pass someone's work off as your own.
- Admit when you're wrong.

Again, no one is perfect. Admittedly, I've fallen, and have done the opposite of what I believe. Own your mistakes gents.

Anyways, I'm just curious as to your thoughts on integrity, which values you live by, and why it seems to be lacking nowadays.

Really good thread OP, way underrated IMO. Nowadays, people are so lazy, they don't want to make an effort to stick to some values or even think what their values should be. I believe the real "why" is the loss of faith : christianism and judaism has built our western societies and people had a clear set of rules and values - The Bible. Now with atheism, people are confused : should they follow societie's value, or religion of peace© or christian values?

Personally, I share your values OP. I really don't like to admit when I'm wrong, but do it nonetheless. I would add:
-Be fair. Example : Don't sell an object 200€ if you paid 5€. (I'm not against profit, but don't take people for fools)
-Don't lead people astray.

What I mean is for example don't tell a girl you're exclusive if you see other girls (trust me, they are fine with it and you live in peace since you don't have to lie), or don't sell something that should do X when it doesn't.

Be strong guys

Post: #13

I think a lot of pick up is based on Dr. Jekyll / Mr. Hyde propaganda bullshit. Incongruent behavior is akin to having multiple personalities.

I recall seeing the movie Sybil in high school and thinking: "That lady is so fucked up." She doesn't know who she is.

9 - 5 He's a docile, good worker.
After 8PM & Weekends He'a super PUA, e.g. The Mask with Jim Carrey

What if guys acted consistent at work, among friends / family as they played the game?

If they're confident at night, then they should be the same at work.

If he's kind and courteous at work, then he should be the same when playing the game. Of course, don't supplicate to a girl, but no need to be an obnoxious asshole either.

In the simplest terms, we need / enjoy each other. Just avoid being the sucker.

Guys don't need to develop another personality to be successful in business or with pussy.

Integrity is the way you behave when no one's watching.

Saw that phrase on some dating profiles a while back. Somehow it resonated.

Post: #14

(09-17-2016 02:14 AM)wi30 Wrote:  First off, everyone's a hypocrite. No matter how honest or virtuous you are, you're full of shit.

I don't mean that in a bad way. It's just how the human mind works. There are endless examples of this. People shame thieves, but jack some pens and towels from the hotel. I personally don't steal anything and view people who do as low lives. But I download music illegally to put onto my mp3 player for the gym.

We're all hypocrites.

There is some validity to that, but I'd suggest coming at it from a different angle. I think a lot about honesty, which I think is at the core of integrity. It's not easy to be honest, really. It takes a lot of effort and a disciplined mind to be honest with yourself, and unless you are first honest with yourself, you can't really be honest with anyone else.

So my thinking is, sure there is an awful lot of hypocrisy and delusion out there, but don't surrender to the idea that it's inevitable. Ideals are worthwhile objectives even if they are difficult or almost impossible to completely reach. Coming as close as possible is worthwhile. Surrendering to the idea that "we're all hypocrites" or "everyone lies" has a tendency to rationalize the unethical and devalue the ethical.

Post: #15

Quick question, is there an ethics aspect to not following through on an agreement where midway through someone tries to gouge you or extort you [for more, to add to their bottom line] because that person or entity has a newfound "upper hand"? For example, credit card debt raising APR and fees as you are paying them back from the original agreement. If you bankrupt on them, is that a business cost, or is it somehow "unethical"? Wondering your thoughts.

Post: #16

(09-27-2016 03:48 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  Quick question, is there an ethics aspect to not following through on an agreement where midway through someone tries to gouge you or extort you [for more, to add to their bottom line] because that person or entity has a newfound "upper hand"? For example, credit card debt raising APR and fees as you are paying them back from the original agreement. If you bankrupt on them, is that a business cost, or is it somehow "unethical"? Wondering your thoughts.

1st off, it's in the fine print in almost every CC agreement that the issuer can raise the rate charge at any given moment. Some of the nicer institutions will notify you.

Secondly, it's fairly naive to think in business that the terms won't change halfway through unless it's a very well structured contract with good legal recourse.

Third, you can always walk away weighing the penalty of walking away. If there is no penalty, run don't walk.

My 2 cents on the real question you are asking: Don't declare BK for the very obvious reasons. If you do declare BK, note that there can be equitable injunctions against you, not just legal, although it's pretty rare.

In the end, bankruptcy is never unethical IMO if there is a good reason. Good reason is a very flexible term.