Post: #1

I was just watching Helmuth Nyborg interview on Stefan Molyneux and then I decided to do a google search on him to see if he has published any book. I came across one his books hormones, sex and society and there was one review that made me create this thread.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hormones-Sex-So...oks&sr=1-1

The first reviewer says that high IQ men are usually of non-virile appearance and have less masculine facial features comparing to those with less IQ (you can read the rest of his review on that link, interesting).

I was just thinking of all the highly intelligent men I have ever met and they usually looked less alpha than your average alpha in the streets (note that there is a difference between looking alpha and being alpha).

I also thought of the boys that I grew up with (mostly true bad boys), the one that had the highest IQ and became more financially successful than the rest of us had somewhat of a good guy look mixed with alpha, this guy was certainly not someone that people would fuck with, he was into martial arts, his brother was also a pretty good fighter but people in general never saw him as a bad influence or a bad guy, while I heard lots of times, stop hanging with ''x'' and ''y'', I have never been told to stop hanging out with this guy. If you ever met this guy, you would never say that he is a beta guy, far from that, I am simply saying that he looked less aggressive comparing to the rest of the guys I grew up with.

Another example, I remember one time I had met this guy at the airport and he gave me that intelligent guy vibe. I started talking to him and we instantly became friends and exchanged numbers. Although he had a soft guy look, he was very red pill (actually the first person I heard using the term red pill) but he was one of these intelligent career guys with extreme psychopathic tendencies, when I found out how dangerous he was, I cut him off. So even though he didn't look alpha and he was highly intelligent, yet he was very alpha once you got to know him (the difference between looking and being alpha again)

Is genetics somewhat unfair to highly IQ men where on average they tend to look less masculine than lesser intelligent men?

Post: #2

I don't think there's any causation to be found, certainly. That reviewer sounds like a whiner looking for excuses.

Two things to think about here:

1. How likely is it that a guy who is very smart, who won the genetic lotto when it comes to intellect, also made out well in terms of the genes that affect his body? As in, natural athleticism, height, and so on, factors that make men look "manly" instead of soft or weak.

2. How many smart kids are underdeveloped physically and socially because they never got into athletic, team based pursuits or other physical ventures that would've A) built up their bodies and B) taught them how to communicate with normal people instead of other eggheads? If a kid is very smart and pushed toward intellectual pursuits only, he may squander some of his genetic potential and never gain a taste for more physical things. In other words, he got the wrong kind of nurturing to develop to his full potential; it's not that his genes suck.

I've met a lot of smart kids (smart, but not THAT smart) who never did anything physical that they didn't have to. Never lifted any weights, didn't even play outside after school. They could have the best physical genes in the universe and still be hollow chested faggots. No doubt they would never achieve full potential if they neglected physical pursuits their whole youth, but they'd probably still do just fine after they put in the several thousand hours of work most sports-playing kids do by age 18.

So are genetics unfair? No, it's just in a normal population you'll have a lot fewer people who win twice than people who only won once, and of the two-time winners only some of them will be encouraged to pursue athletics (which has both physical and social benefits) along with whatever nerd stuff smart kids do. That goes the other way too; I've met guys who were obviously incredibly sharp (after getting to know them well), but who had also obviously never had much guidance in building up their minds. They came across as significantly less intelligent than they were because of the way they communicated and the odd gaps in their knowledge.



P.S. Another point to consider when thinking about the people you've known in your own life in this context: how would you know how intelligent a properly socialized, well rounded guy was if he knew better than to act like an aspie? I mean you'd probably think he was smart, but you might have no idea he really had a +3 SD IQ. Very smart people who spend a lot of time around more average intellects learn how to communicate with them, and generally have no need to prove how smart they are because their intelligence is not the core of their identity. Contrast that with some kid who is really only good at math and science, who sucks at everything else, and thus has to prove how smart he is all the time so he will feel good about himself.

Post: #3

I don't think they are related.

Different roll of the genetic dice. You can have both, none or an each way result.

Post: #4

In my mind we ambulance nails it on the head - being very very smart makes you WEIRD.

Especially if someone is a true savant - of which I have only met a few. These people (genius and savants) tend to care much less for appearance, fitness and even social graces.

This distance from others can increase through adolescence as you grow further advanced from your peers intellectually. So general social awkwardness coupled with an inordinate amount of time spent indoors reading makes one not very alpha indeed.

Often it is later in life that very smart individuals find financial success and then pivot back towards alpha; spending time on physical fitness and skills with women after acheiving other areas of preselection.

Post: #5

Well, only if the guy only focuses on intellectual pursuits. There are a number of high-IQ dudes I know who blow me out of the water mentally and physically and you wouldn't know they were high IQ unless you engage them on some high-level subject.

Post: #6

I'm going to let Scott Alexander make an argument for me:

Quote:What are the sorts of things we might trade off against intelligence? Perhaps fitness, height, attractiveness, health, longevity, social well-adjustedness?

But in fact none of these trade off against intelligence, many are strongly positively associated with it, and in some the link has been proven genetic!

People with high IQ tend to live longer. For example, a person with IQ 115 (85th percentile) is 20% more likely to survive to age 76 than an average person with IQ 100. One can of course posit many possible connections. Maybe high-IQ people are smart enough to eat healthy and exercise. Maybe rich people can afford both good schools and good doctors. Maybe good health behaviors protect the brain as well as the body and increase both IQ and longevity. But further investigation has cast doubt on all of these theories and strongly supports the hypothesis that no, the same genes that give you high intelligence also make you live longer. See for example the International Journal of Epidemiology: The Link Between Intelligence And Lifespan Is Mostly Genetic, which find genetics explain 95% of the correlation. A few of the genes linking intelligence and longevity may be already known; SSADH seems to be a contributing factor. My favorite study in this area, though, is one that is not yet complete: since all mammals are basically the same [citation needed] some London School of Economics researchers have developed an IQ test for dogs in the hope of checking whether the same correlation applies to them. Since canine intelligence doesn’t affect things like diet, exercise, or tobacco status, a positive correlation in them too would help solidify the finding. We’re still waiting on those results, but even without them the genetic hypothesis is looking pretty strong.

People with high IQ tend to be taller. This is interesting since height is often used as a measure of health and fitness during childhood, and since taller people get a bunch of advantages including being rated as more attractive and earning higher income. Once again we can imagine all sorts of possible confounders; once again studies find that the link is genetic. See for example Common Genetic Variants Explain The Majority Of The Correlation Between Height And Intelligence, The Genetic Correlation Between Height And IQ: Shared Genes Or Assortative Mating, Resolving The Genetic And Environmental Sources Of The Correlation Between Height And Intelligence, On The Height-Intelligence Correlation.

People with high IQ may be more attractive. This is the conclusion of a meta-analysis that finds a positive correlation between intelligence and body symmetry, usually used as a proxy for attractiveness unaffected by things like hairstyle and cosmetics; a second study failed to find this relationship. The jury is out on the positive link, but there certainly isn’t the negative link that Myers’ race car would predict.

People with high IQ commit much less crime – which is going to be our measure for social well-adjustedness here since it’s well studied. Once again it’s easy to think of possible confounders (I’ll add lead levels to the usual lot). Once again the studies show that at least some of the effect is genetic – here’s one on low-IQ/antisocial-behavior correlation in children, and here’s one cleverly linking fathers’ criminal history to sons’ vs. nephews’ IQ and then throwing enough statistics at it to find that the relationship is genetic. Likewise, the relationship between high IQ and low drug abuse seems to be genetic as well.

People with high IQ tend to be more physically fit. This is the conclusion of a study of 1.2 million Swedes. I don’t have any strong evidence that this relationship is genetically mediated (although Gottfredson on the fitness factor may be relevant here), I just want to note that, once again, there is less than zero evidence for Myers’ race car hypothesis.

People with high IQ have lower rates of heart disease, stroke, circulatory diseases, and diabetes. Intelligence may or may not decrease cancer risk, but again contra the race car hypothesis, it certainly does not increase it. Sibling designs suggest that shared family environment during youth is not responsible for the benefits; differential socioeconomic status as an adult may be, but this status is itself likely caused be the intelligence differences.

The above and certain experience from my own life leads me to believe that high IQ men don't necessarily look less alpha.

The only thing I could say is that neuroticism (lets roughly call it anxiety/fear) is more common in high IQ people, but that doesn't mean high IQ people are likely to be neurotic.

I also know many high IQ people that have mastered the art of appearing as 90-100 IQ Joe Everyman. AnonymousBosch is a gun at this and has talked in the past about pretending to be 80-90 IQ to make himself more attractive. Apparently it boots lay rates (edit: I should add 'at least when you look like you hit the gym', because there was a bit more to it than that).

Post: #7

Since jewish people have a good spread of high IQ people along their bell curve: Are they considered to be less masculine? I don't know very many Jewish guys personally but all the pictures of writers, journalists, etc, that have obviously jewish names (and the higher on average IQ that comes with it) don't seem very masculine. Shorter, thinner boned, weak jawed, balding, etc. Not the most masculine set of appearances.

Of the very, very high IQ people I know, only one is good looking and he absolutely hit the gene lottery in every way. His kid is also very good looking and smart as hell. The rest are below average in looks.

Post: #8

Post: #9

(05-24-2016 08:51 AM)ball dont lie Wrote:  Since jewish people have a good spread of high IQ people along their bell curve: Are they considered to be less masculine? I don't know very many Jewish guys personally but all the pictures of writers, journalists, etc, that have obviously jewish names (and the higher on average IQ that comes with it) don't seem very masculine. Shorter, thinner boned, weak jawed, balding, etc. Not the most masculine set of appearances.

Of the very, very high IQ people I know, only one is good looking and he absolutely hit the gene lottery in every way. His kid is also very good looking and smart as hell. The rest are below average in looks.

I Think that's because jews focus on money and education to the exclusion of everything else. I grew up in a huge jewish area and our high school sports teams were mostly black and non-jew whites.

Like, my jewish friends would never party so they never got any game skill and they'd never take up a hobby that wasn't academic in nature so they never develop their bodies, so you have a walking brain which is not very attractive to a 16 year old girl.

When you have generation after generation of jewish people who never do anything but focus on education and money the pattern repeats itself over and over again.

Post: #10

(05-24-2016 07:56 AM)Speculation Wrote:  The only thing I could say is that neuroticism (lets roughly call it anxiety/fear) is more common in high IQ people, but that doesn't mean high IQ people are likely to be neurotic.

The higher the intelligence, the better the person does in a low-stress enviornment, the worse they do in a high-stress one: hence the creation of neurosis, the smart person with a "difficult" childhood; a good evolutionary reason everyone isn't more intelligent, because the greater brain power contains a greater risk of neurosis.

Quote:I also know many high IQ people that have mastered the art of appearing as 90-100 IQ Joe Everyman.

Good for them, but I seemingly can't do this; I get spotted instantly by smarter girls, even if I use simplified language and try to run 'joe six pack' game. I do badly with lower-class, hooters, hot-but-not-beautiful tatooed types. Intelligence is simply in the face, and eyes, and announces itself to the world.

Quote:AnonymousBosch is a gun at this and has talked in the past about pretending to be 80-90 IQ to make himself more attractive. Apparently it boots lay rates

This is fascinating, I have tried to do this before but it never worked, there seems too great of an incompability between myself and the moron-to-middleofthebellcurve 'zards.

(05-24-2016 08:51 AM)ball dont lie Wrote:  Since jewish people have a good spread of high IQ people along their bell curve: Are they considered to be less masculine? I don't know very many Jewish guys personally but all the pictures of writers, journalists, etc, that have obviously jewish names (and the higher on average IQ that comes with it) don't seem very masculine. Shorter, thinner boned, weak jawed, balding, etc. Not the most masculine set of appearances.

Very true that they seem unmasculine; yet not the best example, because the Jews are a different and rather unique race, bred mainly for intelligence, especially verbal. You could also look up Israeli army personnel and see that there is more masculinity than superficially apparent by the American 'journalist' Pajama boy type, as the journalists are nonetheless more visible to us via the internet, but not entirely representitive. Otherwise, the Israeli army would not be as capable without enough masculine men to man the weaponry.

High IQ is correlated, as quoted above, with physical attractiveness; the "cute guy is dumb" trope is really ugly people's envy, which I found out, is nearly ubiquitious. I've seen even here, a place where overall the men are of higher-than-average intrinsic value, on the occasional 'do looks matter more than game' "threaks".

Probably smartest man of his generation, symmetrical facial features, masculine brow and jawline;



Also, top of the class for his generation



It is not objective but one can browse further at portraits of the true geniuses of history and see a pattern of greater than average facial symmetry and health.

Quote:1. How likely is it that a guy who is very smart, who won the genetic lotto when it comes to intellect, also made out well in terms of the genes that affect his body?

It isn't a independent roulette wheel; as mentioned above, genes are connected to one another, the higher evolved a person's genes are, the more likely to be of superior intelligence and aethestics.

Quote:These people (genius and savants) tend to care much less for appearance, fitness and even social graces.

I'm not sure what you mean by savant, but normally it has anything to do with actual genius (which is the top tier of overall intellect, enough to have creativity, a rare trait indeed), but rather of someone who has one incredible skill but lacks of overall intelligence to balance it. In any case, how do you know that those sloppy rude geniuses of yours, even if they existed in any real number, are not exceptions that stand out?

Post: #11

The answer is pretty obvious, just compare the male student body at elite universities vs those from mid-level schools. There is no question that males at top universities have higher IQs, and also no question about them being, by and large, nerdier and less "alpha".

There is a cultural factor as well, nerdier more socially awkward males tend to have a stronger academic focus which in turn will develop their IQ. Alpha guys and hot women will similarly tend to have more hedonistic and social inclinations, and will seek that type of environment in college.

This doesn't mean that alphas won't do well financially, they are better equipped for many professions such as sales or management. But if you look at the issue from a purely statistical perspective, the student bodies at elite universities will provide the answer.

Post: #12

Both developing a high IQ and a masculine appearance depend on the presence of sufficient androgenic hormones.
For instance, the following traits are all positively influenced by androgenic/anabolic hormones:
- math and logic ability
- spatial visualisation ability
- height
- shoulder width
- bone thickness
- muscle mass
- body fat (is lowered by these hormones)
- facial masculinity (wide jaw, straight jawline, square chin, brow ridge, big nose, thin lips, ...)
- low voice
- thick neck
- facial and body hair
- dick size

If I look at that list, I'm average on some domains, and more or less masculine than average on other domains. And I think that's the case for a majority of people.

My hypothesis is that your body can only produce so much androgenic hormones, and the traits that are developed will depend mainly on the respective androgen receptor sensitivity in the target organs.
For instance, the guy who's brain has a far higher affinity for testosterone than his bones or muscles, will become the stereotypical low virility - high IQ nerd.
Then you have guys who have a massive bone structure/muscle mass but a high pitched voice (Ronnie Coleman for instance) or are super dumb.
And then you have men who are more or less average on all accounts.

The men who score high on all these traits (very masculine face, body and high IQ) have won the genetic lottery. Their own hormonal production is significantly higher than average and their receptors are nicely distributed. These men are rare.

The men who score low on everything have been screwed by their genetics. These men are rare as well.

But as I said, this is just my hypothesis.

Post: #13

I get the impression some men men tend to have 'inner masculinity' i.e very logical, strong emotional control, goal oriented, deep voice, wiry strong bodies etc while high Test men have more outward signs of masculinity i.e larger size (muscle and bone), extroverted confident behaviour, anger issues etc.

I have in the past thought the former have more DHT to Testosterone influence in their bodies.

Post: #14

Same as beautiful women being vacuous. The more deficient you are in in one area the more you have to make up in another. People blessed with the winning lottery ticket of genetics, looks, beauty, etc-combination rarely need to learn social skills, engage in difficult pursuits, or suffer the same hardships as us regular humans.

Post: #15

It's the same trope that "all guys who are super high iq wear glasses".

Post: #16

This thread makes me feel very special and unique.

Post: #17

Personal opinion on the OP is that "all brains, no brawn" looks less alpha than "all brawn, no brains".

But that actual alphas have both "brains and brawn (or at least courage and leadership skill even if they lack physical might)", like a military general, versus the dumb grunt who gets sent onto the frontlines because he doesn't qualify for anything more intellectually challenging, or the skinny goof who gets assigned kitchen duty because he can't fight.

(05-23-2016 09:37 PM)odesseus Wrote:  In my mind we ambulance nails it on the head - being very very smart makes you WEIRD.

Especially if someone is a true savant - of which I have only met a few. These people (genius and savants) tend to care much less for appearance, fitness and even social graces.

True, I think it's because most of the laws of everyday social interaction are based more on emotion rather than logic.

People who think "too logically" often ignore everyday common sense if they don't understand it intellectually; this is essentially what Asperger's syndrome is for example.

(This isn't totally disadvantageous though since it prevents people from getting caught up in the "herd mentality" that the average Joe or Jane does but makes it harder to relate to "normal people").

-----

What's interesting is what I've seen of Asperger's is that their mindset is basically that of a "communist"; Asperger minds seem to believe:

1. Everyone is member of "one big tribe", things like individual rights, boundaries, property, etc escape them, and tendency to view everyone else as "the same". Their interactive style is therefore more like a psychologist studying his "test subjects" to figure out how and why they act the way they do rather than that of a peer; which easily becomes annoying.

2. Only think in terms of material or logical facts and direct cause/effect; therefore human relationships are difficult because they expect humans to operate according to predictable mechanical rules, like a car or a video game.

3. Obsessed with acquiring and sharing "knowledge" just for the sake of it; e.x. Asperger people often annoy others by over-asking or oversharing personal or inappropriate information without understanding why it's contextually inappropriate; they tend to love learning just for the sake of pure curiosity even when it serves no practical purpose. They also tend to apply rules way too literally, and only see in black/white (e.x. therefore the typical "nice guy vs jerk" dichotomy confuses them.)


4. Since the only see the world in terms of purely material cause/effect they ignore social rules ; e.x. they may ignore hygiene if they intellectually "know" bad hygiene won't "kill them" or others, even though it still makes them and people around them less unpleasant. As a result they tend to think of others as "stupid" and illogical for being adverse to things that don't actually "harm them" and refuse to change unless they are given a logical reason to).

5. They also tend to only respond to words rather than the actual meaning or intent of what someone is saying; e.x. if someone told them "you're an idiot" they might give a logical argument for why they're not an idiot rather than simply writing it of as an "insult".

Post: #18

My undergraduate education was in mathematics/computer science, and I run a moderately successful technology consulting small business. I also lift and I like dominating girls in bed.

Do I win?

A therapist I had once suggested I had Asperger's syndrome, but "very high functioning." I'm not sure I buy it as I do fine in social situations, and every "adult screening test" I've taken I've scored very low on. I think it can be just another psychological pejorative to heap on men to make them feel bad about whatever it is they're doing. If a man is intelligent and "alpha" the mainstream has to find some way to pathologize it and punish him for something.

Post: #19

Maybe the question should have been to high iq men ACT less masculine.

@Edantes. That was a cool right up. Are you a psychologist or something?

Post: #20

(05-25-2016 11:05 PM)Pride male Wrote:  Maybe the question should have been to high iq men ACT less masculine.

@Edantes. That was a cool right up. Are you a psychologist or something?

Thanks, I'm not a licensed psychologist but I'm heavily into evolutionary psychology and economics; eventually plan on self-publishing books.

(I was diagnosed myself with Asperger syndrome and had behavioral problems when I was younger but learned through trial and error as well as reading that most human interactions are governed subconsciously by simple economic rules, and that male and females are definitely born innately different; rather than simply conditioned from birth as progressive psychology claims).

Post: #21

(05-25-2016 10:54 PM)XPQ22 Wrote:  My undergraduate education was in mathematics/computer science, and I run a moderately successful technology consulting small business. I also lift and I like dominating girls in bed.

Do I win?

A therapist I had once suggested I had Asperger's syndrome, but "very high functioning." I'm not sure I buy it as I do fine in social situations, and every "adult screening test" I've taken I've scored very low on. I think it can be just another psychological pejorative to heap on men to make them feel bad about whatever it is they're doing. If a man is intelligent and "alpha" the mainstream has to find some way to pathologize it and punish him for something.

That's a cool life story; if anything I think AS people probably would have an edge over "normal people" when it comes to game and leadership if they just learned the specific social rules and etiquette that apply to their culture.

Because their mind is geared more toward following logical rules and principles that apply to "people as a whole", like a military strategist or an economist.

Most "average" people I meet seem to be caught too much up in "themselves" and "their friends" and tend to just go along with whatever they were "taught" by parents, teachers, or the media rather than experiment a little for themselves.

Post: #22

(05-25-2016 11:15 PM)EDantes Wrote:  Most "average" people I meet seem to be caught too much up in "themselves" and "their friends" and tend to just go along with whatever they were "taught" by parents, teachers, or the media rather than experiment a little for themselves.

Yes, I feel part of the reason I've been successful is that I recognize that much of what passes for common knowledge about all sorts of things, relationships, business, and otherwise, is gobbledygook.

I'm not saying that I feel "superior" to others, because I really don't. I feel that people in general are pretty smart and are capable of all sorts of things when given the proper tools and motivation. But they often just seem to lack the motivation.

Maybe they feel like they have too much to lose. Which is why hitting rock bottom in one's life and feeling like one has nothing left to lose can almost be a gift.

Post: #23

Only men that put a disproportionate focus on IQ to the detriment of character development are less alpha.

IQ is one trait of many for success, and many high IQ people get stuck naval gazing and don't recognize true genius because they think so many people are beneath them.

Example: High IQ Alpha that many people look down on because he speaks to and cares about normal people.

Post: #24

(05-26-2016 06:35 AM)JacksonRev Wrote:  Example: High IQ Alpha that many people look down on because he speaks to and cares about normal people.

Post: #25

Reading the responses, I'm getting the feeling that the correlation is extremely light. There are also a ton of factors at play that influence how masculine someone ends up (lots of threads on this here).

One huge advantage for the high IQ crowd, as many members of this forum can attest to, is that you can develop alpha traits, but it's much harder to develop high IQ.


(Unless you pull a Thomas the Rhymer )