Post: #26

Maybe I'm missing something, but I've never really thought of real estate as a wealth building tool.

Let's say you buy a rental property. You pay a $1500 mortgage on it every month (the whole PITI). Then you rent it out. Following the 9 months rent for 12 months mortgage rule of thumb, you set the monthly rent at $2000.

So far, you have a $500 cash flow every month (assuming 0% vacancy). Good. But if you are using rental properties as a means to location independence, you're going to want to travel the world and be gone for months at a time. What if something happens to the property? You need someone to manage the property for you.

Ok, then you hire a property manager. Let's say they charge 10% of your rent. That's $200 a month. Now you're running on cash flow of $300 per month.

What about fees and maintenance? Do you have the tenant pay those, or do you pay it yourself? As far as I can remember, as an apartment tenant, I don't pay for fees or maintenance. If something breaks, it's the apartment manager's responsibility. I assume that's the same for property landlords like yourself.

So let's say maintenance runs at $2400 a year (picked that number so it is easily dividable by 12 months). That's an average of $200 per month.

Now you're pulling in only $100 a month in cash flow.

If you want to be location independent with a cash flow of $2k a month without working at all, you'll need to buy 20 properties of similar value as the above example. This seems pretty unrealistic to me.

But I may be missing something, and I probably am, if there are lots of young guys riding on rental income now. Do they just expect to break even on rent & fees, hope the property appreciates in value, and then sell for a profit -- the profit being the real vehicle to location independence?

Post: #27

Be careful with RE, I have had success and failures with it.

If you can do the work yourself, then it is an advantage. If you need to find others to deal with it, it can make you bleed.

Getting rehabs are great if you can accurately assess the ARV - after repair value.

Nothing is ever as easy as it seems.

Tenant screening is also very important.

I am not trying to piss on anyone's dreams of living somewhere else, just watching your bank account grow. Just trying to help people keep a level head about it.

EDIT: I know this sounds crazy (this idea I am about to suggest) but an RVF type investment fund would be interesting in a train wreck sort of way. What I mean is, ideally you need to be hands on to manage your money. But if there were a couple of guys who were US bound (happy family, etc) and they were smart, it would be great to find guys who knew what the objectives were of such a fund.

Phoenix had an interesting thread idea /thread-49367.html - granted it was about partners running a business.

Anytime you have more than a few guys - there will be shirkers. Just the nature of it - people who know if they don't do it - the responsible ones will do it. I know that would piss me off.

So there would have to be some mechanism like - if all partners agree - you get bought out - no bitching. However, that could then be manipulated to steal businesses from people also.

Post: #28

(05-22-2016 08:10 PM)CleanSlate Wrote:  Maybe I'm missing something, but I've never really thought of real estate as a wealth building tool.

Let's say you buy a rental property. You pay a $1500 mortgage on it every month (the whole PITI). Then you rent it out. Following the 9 months rent for 12 months mortgage rule of thumb, you set the monthly rent at $2000.

So far, you have a $500 cash flow every month (assuming 0% vacancy). Good. But if you are using rental properties as a means to location independence, you're going to want to travel the world and be gone for months at a time. What if something happens to the property? You need someone to manage the property for you.

Ok, then you hire a property manager. Let's say they charge 10% of your rent. That's $200 a month. Now you're running on cash flow of $300 per month.

What about fees and maintenance? Do you have the tenant pay those, or do you pay it yourself? As far as I can remember, as an apartment tenant, I don't pay for fees or maintenance. If something breaks, it's the apartment manager's responsibility. I assume that's the same for property landlords like yourself.

So let's say maintenance runs at $2400 a year (picked that number so it is easily dividable by 12 months). That's an average of $200 per month.

Now you're pulling in only $100 a month in cash flow.

If you want to be location independent with a cash flow of $2k a month without working at all, you'll need to buy 20 properties of similar value as the above example. This seems pretty unrealistic to me.

But I may be missing something, and I probably am, if there are lots of young guys riding on rental income now. Do they just expect to break even on rent & fees, hope the property appreciates in value, and then sell for a profit -- the profit being the real vehicle to location independence?

Rate spreads I can get vs. cap rate are bigger than that where I'm from. My one partner gets exceptionally low rates.

All of a sudden you can buy a property where the cap rate is say 8% and the mortgage rate is 3%. Theres a 5% spread there + you have renters paying your mortgage + you have tons of leverage so you are making a lot more than 5%.

Lets use an example and this is rough math and based on how I understand it.

3 people buy a 1 million dollar apartment building. (going to assume includes everything legal fees, hst whatever) Cap rate = 8%

We all put down 100k (300k down payment) + obtain a 3% line of credit on the remaining 700k.

The property makes 1,000,000 * .08 = 80,000
Less Interest 700,000 * .03 = 21,000

Yearly Income = $59,000

Per partner = $19,333 on a $100,000 investment

Now lets say the property appreciates in value 3% per year. (not an unreasonable amount in my opinion. for it to double in value with this rate of increase it would take 24 years)

$1,000,000 * .03 = $30,000

$30,000 / 3 partners = $10,000

Each partner is making $19,333 in cash + $10,000 in capital appreciation = 29.33% return on $100,000

Again I could be way off on this. This is just something I learned about in the last 2 weeks.

Post: #29

Same Example but with a Property Manager


3 people buy a 1 million dollar apartment building. (going to assume includes everything legal fees, hst whatever) Cap rate = 8%

We all put down 100k (300k down payment) + obtain a 3% line of credit on the remaining 700k. Property Manager is used who takes 10% of gross rent. Lets go high and say gross rent is $150,000. Expenses including property tax are $70,000 getting you to a cap rate of 8% not including property manager.


The property makes 1,000,000 * .08 = 80,000
Less Interest 700,000 * .03 = 21,000

Yearly Income = $59,000

Yearly Income less property manager fee = $59,000 - ($150,000 gross rents *.1) = $59,000 - $15,000 = $44,000

Per partner = $14,666 on a $100,000 investment

Now lets say the property appreciates in value 3% per year. (not an unreasonable amount in my opinion. for it to double in value with this rate of increase it would take 24 years)

$1,000,000 * .03 = $30,000

$30,000 / 3 partners = $10,000

Each partner is making $14,666 in cash + $10,000 in capital appreciation = 24.66% return on $100,000.


The thing is with the cash flow being so high one can retire with a rather minimal amount invested of say 500k and live large. 500k *.14666 = $73,300

Assuming you pay down your line of credit / mortgage over time you should be able to counteract any closing of the spread.

Again I could be way off on this. This is just something I learned about in the last 2 weeks. Hopefully someone who has actually done this could chime in (more specifically in relation to multi-family or commercial units) as opposed to single family home rentals.

Post: #30

(05-22-2016 09:06 PM)lavidaloca Wrote:  3 people buy a 1 million dollar apartment building. (going to assume includes everything legal fees, hst whatever) Cap rate = 8%

We all put down 100k (300k down payment) + obtain a 3% line of credit on the remaining 700k.

The property makes 1,000,000 * .08 = 80,000
Less Interest 700,000 * .03 = 21,000

Yearly Income = $59,000

That's where I lost you. As I understand it, you also have to make the monthly payments on that 3% line of credit / mortgage. The $21,000 in interest makes up only one "I" in PITI, where you also have to make payments on the principal, taxes, and insurance.

The P, T, and the other I probably eats well into that yearly income.

Unless you aren't planning on making those payments?

Post: #31

(05-22-2016 09:41 PM)CleanSlate Wrote:  

(05-22-2016 09:06 PM)lavidaloca Wrote:  3 people buy a 1 million dollar apartment building. (going to assume includes everything legal fees, hst whatever) Cap rate = 8%

We all put down 100k (300k down payment) + obtain a 3% line of credit on the remaining 700k.

The property makes 1,000,000 * .08 = 80,000
Less Interest 700,000 * .03 = 21,000

Yearly Income = $59,000

That's where I lost you. As I understand it, you also have to make the monthly payments on that 3% line of credit / mortgage. The $21,000 in interest makes up only one "I" in PITI, where you also have to make payments on the principal, taxes, and insurance.

The P, T, and the other I probably eats well into that yearly income.

Unless you aren't planning on making those payments?

The property taxes and all expenses are included in the cap rate. To make it more simple the gross rent may very well be $150,000 but the net operating income is only $80,000 because of all the expenses, property taxes, maintenance etc.

Look at it this way.

$150,000 in rental income

less $20,000 property taxes

less $20,000 maintenace

less $10,000 hydro

less $10,000 heat

less $10,000 miscellaneuous

= $80,000 Net Operating Income = Cap Rate

Principal repayments depend on the type of loan you get. If you get a line of credit you could leave it outstanding hypothetically and just pay the interest.

If you get a mortgage obviously principal repayments may be part of the equation. With that said the mortgage rates based on my limited understanding will be in 3-4% range here. What mortgage rate you get would obviously have a large effect on the math. If your paying 6% the math isn't so good. If your paying 3% the math looks really good.

Post: #32

I see, I get it now, thanks lavi.

Minus all the expenses including property taxes and maintenance, an 8% cap rate seems pretty high. Is that the norm? Of course it all depends on where the loan interest rate is, relatively speaking.

I'm a bit surprised that you don't pay the principal on the line of credit, though.

Post: #33

I posted this under the passive income thread awhile ago for those that did not see it. I have pasted it below.

The whole reason of getting into real estate was My family Purchased a couple of properties in NYC 30 years ago. I would help them while I was young with cleaning the properties , painting and collecting rent. I took an immediate liking to real estate and memorized the art of the deal by trump at a young age.

The NYC market in mid 90s was shit. And if you were sitting on capital could have purchased properties for 5 to 10 percent of what the market price is now.

The key is to talk to the old timers about the ups and downs of the business cycles they experienced in addition to market research. Talk to people who live and own businesses in the area you are looking to invest. I make it a point to only eat and shop in areas where I'm looking to invest. I talk to the cashiers , janitors To get real time street knowledge. I want to know about families , school performance , police Etc.

Either way, I wanted to make it on my own and went through the 80 - 90 hour work weeks to accomplish it. I don't count my families money as mine as I did not work for it. Therefore, I will not spend it while I can work.

I worked in finance for about 10 years and saved a large percentage of my earnings while cutting back on expenses. I then purchased small apartment complexes in blue collar areas that rent roll with reasonable returns to qualified cash tenants or subsidized / low income housing.

The learning curve was building a good team while setting up acquisitions / renovations. That has been the most arduous task I have ever accomplished. There is a balance point that is necessary in order to scale the business accordingly. It is a very fine line that can easily be overlooked. You may encounter great property value but not have the resources to renovate them quickly and enough staff to handle the back end.

Over the last few years I have build a very tough office management and field personnel team. I pay them well to help coordinate repairs , rentals , collections Etc.

If you are a newbie with real estate you must be very careful as this is what I call a standard 5 facet business. If one of these pillars is compromised the whole damn thing will collapse.

5 facets:
Acquisition
Renovation / maintenance
Tenant placement
Collection
Filing tax returns properly

Example 1:
You could be the guy who finds the best deals and have Holmes on homes quality renovations but end up renting to the wrong tenants and not having an aggressive collection team and you will fail.

Example 2:
You are great with paperwork and can harass people to collect money but don't have the construction knowledge to know driveway , electric , plumbing repairs / price points.
You end up getting overcharged on renovation cost and may even get persuaded to buy a home in an area that renters do not like by the typical pushy realtor looking for a commission

Example 3:
Slumlord scenario. Push for money and rent out units that are not in good condition while avoiding maintenance. Then deal with the turnover and garbage tenants that a dilapidated property only seems to attract. Maybe you are a total shit landlord and cover up a bunch of black mold with new dryeall and the tenants then get sick exposing you to lawsuits.

Either way , real estate is not for everyone.
Just like I never touched the stock market. I like the feeling of upside. The feeling of buying an undervalued asset that sold for 3x or 4x what i paid for it several years ago.

I want to build something and see a level of progression. I also prefer a steady drop in the bucket that has the potential to build up into a waterfall versus the one big inconsistent payout.

Post: #34

The bottom line is that your level of success or lack thereof will always depend on a combination of the facets below

5 facets
Acquisition
Renovation / maintenance
Tenant placement
Collection
Filing tax returns properly

What's worked for me has been trial and error. I've test ran many variables many of which have been unmitigated failures that I have of course learned from. The few constants have been itemized below.

1. In house management is critical at least for me. I get to oversee levels of effectiveness and efficiency of every facet of the business.
When you outsource management you lose control of levels of aggression with collections and most importantly getting crushed on maintenance. In addition to a mix of other variables.

I want control over who will rent my properties. I want to know their criminal back ground , previous landlord details , I want them to bring their family to my office to see if their kids will spill their soda on my floors and run around like crazy. Guess what - sloppy kids usually means sloppy parents.

I want to charge a tenant who was out boozing Friday night and late to pay rent $100 late fee and initiate eviction when the payment is 3 days late. You have to be tough in order to collect. I have had people get their car stolen , mother pass Etc. I do not care. They must pay or they will get evicted. Wells Fargo and chase bank don't give a damn about your personal problems... why should I ? I will chase you to your deathbed with judgments , garnishment S , repossessions for those that damage units and or don't pay rent or water bills.

2. Running your own maintenance and renovation. I have forced myself to learn about every possible type of paint , drywall techniques , plumbing parts and cost for each part in order to understand contractor quotes. I got so fed up with my plumber charging to snake out small drains and toilets that I purchased small snakes for each of my handymen to use and can now snake out on the spot. I also keep these in my trailer when I am on the road.

I need to oversee every aspect of rough electric , plumbing and heating before my drywall guys come in. If my drywall guys have a revisit from mechanical and have to cut drywall out , I will deduct all damages of rework to my electricians and plumbers. I have repeat work and pay out on time, you must have solid guys around you to reduce maintenance calls down the road.

I will elaborate more on this next week.

Post: #35

(05-22-2016 10:35 PM)CleanSlate Wrote:  I see, I get it now, thanks lavi.

Minus all the expenses including property taxes and maintenance, an 8% cap rate seems pretty high. Is that the norm? Of course it all depends on where the loan interest rate is, relatively speaking.

I'm a bit surprised that you don't pay the principal on the line of credit, though.

It depends on what your trying to achieve as to whether you pay down the LOC.

There are a number of ways you could do it.

My intention is to buy a new building each year over the next 5 years and reinvest each dollar the rentals make into paying off the mortgages.

Lets say I do the same project 5 times as described above. My income should reach close to $100,000 per year without a property manager and close to $75,000 per year with a property manager. If you throw in an extra 1% for mortgage rate (this way you are paying down principal as well it will cut down those numbers but still make for a great number to live abroad on.

$80,000 Net Operating Income - (0.04 mortgage rate * 700k) = $52,000 per property. If I use a property manager too

$52,000 - ($150,000 *0.1) = $37,000

Divide by 3 partners = $12,333 per partner

Multiply the $12,333 x 5 properties = $61,666

Now if you want to be really wild you could pull out the appreciation in value in a property and use it to buy another property while being retired to further up those numbers. It all depends what exactly you are after. My mortgage payments are not correct as obviously you will be paying down the mortgage over time. I just tried to do simple math.

Cap rates are location / property type dependent etc. Hard to say. I see 8% cap rates available in the areas I'm looking though. Some more, some much lower.

Post: #36

@Pyhrric

What do you think of duplexes as a starter investment unit where you live on one side with a roommate or whatever and then rent out the other side to tenants so you get the microcosm about what this is all about?

Also if you plan to start investing in real estate in an area you force yourself to live there and get to know it.

Post: #37

^

Travesty:
I think duplexes where you live in one unit and rent the other are a great starting point.

You will get to see your tenant daily and get a feel for the process. I actually live in one of my apartment buildings and use the common area basement as my construction material storage room. I know all my neighbors personally and make sure the property is kept up. As extreme as it may sound , I have taken air mattresses to my other buildings and discretely slept in a vacant apartment to see what's going on after hours. Sort of like undercover boss. I like doing this in the winter where I can wear a lot of clothes and walk in and out without being recognized.

I also prefer multi units due to easier management by having multiple locations under one roof. Make sure you do due diligence in an area , stop at all the local stores and ask for the owner to discuss the area / trends Etc. Check out city hall reports on increasing / decreasing crime. Poke around and befriend some police officers if you can to get real time information as well.

Post: #38

The good thing about 4 plexes or fewer units is you can qualify for 30 year fixed mortgages.

Anything over 4 units is considered commercial and you can't generally find fixed 30 year financing.

Post: #39

@ Pyrrhic

You crazy man, in a good way hahaha.

It seems like a duplex is a good initial investment to see if the bug bites to scale out to a 4 plex, small apartment building or other next step.

How do you feel about warehouses and other industrial or office commercial real estate?

I just heard the other date about a guy saying he rents out a warehouse and if it is a tenant with a long standing business with a good reputation in town it can be a great tenant because they treat the place well and are on time with payments. Plus I mean it is a warehouse so it seems like the maintenance could be easier since it is pretty much a gigantic shed.

Post: #40

Mr Money Mustache also did rental houses, since he likes being a handyman - http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/05/2...al-houses/

If I remember correctly - I couldn't find it with a quick Google search - he too recommends a duplex as a starting point, as Pyhrric does.

He's also invested in REITs, if you want to be a "lazy landlord" - http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/08/1...ith-reits/

Post: #41

(05-23-2016 12:07 AM)Travesty Wrote:  How do you feel about warehouses and other industrial or office commercial real estate?

I just heard the other date about a guy saying he rents out a warehouse and if it is a tenant with a long standing business with a good reputation in town it can be a great tenant because they treat the place well and are on time with payments. Plus I mean it is a warehouse so it seems like the maintenance could be easier since it is pretty much a gigantic shed.

Yeah it would definitely be less of a headache compared to dealing with residential units. The biggest issue though is find a building in an area that isn't saturated with tons of empty warehouses already. It isn't uncommon for a warehouse to sit empty for years in between renters.

A few years ago I was the only renter (of a space of about 1,000 sqft) in a 50,000 sqft warehouse for two years. My rent wasn't even enough to cover the property taxes let alone all the other expenses.

There are a few other options to consider as well... retail and office space. I was looking at a small retail plaza not long ago that performed really well, I regret not going after that one. I would avoid large retail buildings as more and more chains are getting killed by the Internet. Case in point, Amazon is now around 10% of all clothing sales in the United States and rapidly taking more share away from JcPenney, Macys, Sears, etc.. There will be less and less demand for those big spaces. Also need to avoid areas with too many other empty retail spaces.

Office space rentals seem like a better option than retail. There are always little companies looking for space... a company doing sales, a support company, a headquarters for a service business, etc.. Even more intriguing, if you can find a good one, is medical office buildings. These buildings typically have dentist, chiropractors, eye doctors, and other small practices as renters. Often time these doctors are making bank and always pay on time. Probably the best tenants you can get second only to government tenants.

Post: #42

(05-22-2016 11:23 PM)Pyrrhic victory Wrote:  ^

Travesty:
I think duplexes where you live in one unit and rent the other are a great starting point.

You will get to see your tenant daily and get a feel for the process. I actually live in one of my apartment buildings and use the common area basement as my construction material storage room. I know all my neighbors personally and make sure the property is kept up. As extreme as it may sound , I have taken air mattresses to my other buildings and discretely slept in a vacant apartment to see what's going on after hours. Sort of like undercover boss. I like doing this in the winter where I can wear a lot of clothes and walk in and out without being recognized.

I also prefer multi units due to easier management by having multiple locations under one roof. Make sure you do due diligence in an area , stop at all the local stores and ask for the owner to discuss the area / trends Etc. Check out city hall reports on increasing / decreasing crime. Poke around and befriend some police officers if you can to get real time information as well.

Mad respect for you PV as it's obvious you really follow through from beginning to end on your properties. I got so tired of it, I sold out years ago. I also think your posts support my belief that being a successful landlord is essentially a full time job and not "location independent" at all.

Post: #43

If you are handy and are in an area with good opportunity, you can create wealth with RE. But it can also eat your lunch.

If you are able to buy a fixer, you create value (if you do the numbers right), you can then go several ways with it - refi, sell, rent, a combination, etc.

But if you are hands off and relying on others, you can be in for pain.

Now if you have enough equity and enough spread between inflows and outflows, you can be absentee as long as you have a good team in place.

But you have to do your work, you have to have reserves or some plan to deal with any pain.

Please remember RE is not easy to get in or out of. Unlike a stock that can be bought and sold in seconds.

I know people who have built their retirement on RE. But they raised those properties like children to where they finally could rely on them.


For a first timer - get comfortable fixing shit or get people you trust - buy a fixer - fastest way to wealth creation. If you buy a ready to go property, there is little room for you to create wealth, unless the market appreciates. You can ride it for a while and hope that your CF remains steady and you get the tax write offs. But one month of vacancy or an unexpected repair can wipe out a year of profits from rent depending on how tight your margin is.

Post: #44

(05-23-2016 05:11 AM)262 Wrote:  Mr Money Mustache also did rental houses, since he likes being a handyman - http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/05/2...al-houses/

If I remember correctly - I couldn't find it with a quick Google search - he too recommends a duplex as a starting point, as Pyhrric does.

He's also invested in REITs, if you want to be a "lazy landlord" - http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/08/1...ith-reits/

Yeah but he did everything himself. If you aren't an upper-fixer, repairs and renovations are going to eat into your profit big time.

What people confuse is that real estate is far from being a passive income stream. You can't really compare it with stocks. You have to deal with tenants, repairs and most people investing in real estate have no idea about their actual return (way underestimate the maintainance costs and vacancy) and don't take into consideration their time wasted on dealing with their rental properties. Also the disadvantages are considerable. The biggest would probably be that it's not liquid if you need the money or even a part of it.

I say unless you really know the market (like MMM did - I can't find his article right now where he goes into details about how he knew about every house sold in his neighbourhood hence he could instantly recognise a good deal) and are able to do the repairs you shouldn't get involved with real estate. Investing in a low-cost index fund is the (passive) way to go.

Post: #45

^ IMO, I agree, hence why I went with low-cost index funds.

Post: #46

(05-26-2016 11:42 AM)262 Wrote:  ^ IMO, I agree, hence why I went with low-cost index funds.

Did you do it via ETFs or through a specific mutual fund?

Post: #47

(05-27-2016 03:24 AM)HighSpeed_LowDrag Wrote:  

(05-26-2016 11:42 AM)262 Wrote:  ^ IMO, I agree, hence why I went with low-cost index funds.

Did you do it via ETFs or through a specific mutual fund?

I happen to do it via mutual funds offered through my well-known but low-cost broker (think Vanguard, Fidelity, etc.), but the key is to keep expense ratios and commissions as low as possible. Don't be the guy who says, "My retirement put a kid through college - my broker's kid!"

After a quick Google search of "ETFs versus mutual funds," one thing I didn't see but should point out is that while ETFs have no minimums but mutual funds do, once you have a certain amount of assets with the same broker, they usually automatically upgrade your mutual funds into lower-expense ratio versions. I don't think that's the case with ETFs. And if you're going to be saving the hundreds of thousands of dollars needed to live off as passive income, it should come into play.

Post: #48

I am building my passive income through sales, insurance sales.

It is neither glamorous nor easy but I am up to roughly $3,500/mo in lifetime renewal commissions, meaning I get paid that amount monthly until I die. I receive these commissions whether I am in the states working or in EE or SEA living the good life. It is automatic, guaranteed.

These commissions will decrease about 5-10% annually due to cancellations but require minimal effort on my part to maintain otherwise (maybe 5 phone calls a month and some emails).

Every month I work now and put new business on the books adds to the monthly renewal total (I also get new/first year commissions that are 6x my renewal rate). The ST goal (12 mo) is to get to $5k/mo renewals and the LT goal (3-5 yr) is to double that. This will provide me with adequate living expenses to do whatever I want wherever I want.

My main concerns are taxes and wealth building. The renewal commissions are taxed like ordinary income in the US. As long as I am working in the US my business deductions will reduce tax liability tremendously, but if I am living abroad I will not have many deductions and be taxed at a high rate.

This piques my interest in investment income, either through real estate or equities. They both have a much more favorable tax situation from what little I know.

My current dilemma is should I invest time in learning a skill to generate online income, should I invest savings into real estate or investments with the prospect of future income/wealth building, or should I just put my head down and channel my energies into my current gig and build my renewals as much as possible.

Any thoughts?

How much would I need in an investment account to generate an additional $10k/yr earnings? (an example for easy math)


I'm a little drunk right now, sorry for the ramble.

Post: #49

^ IMO, it depends on what you want. The less you want to work later, the more you have to work now.

From least upfront investment to most:
1) Skill that makes money online
2) Real estate
3) Equities

And thus, the least investment after the fact:
1) Equities
2) Real estate
3) Skill that makes money online

Post: #50

(05-27-2016 06:04 AM)Chauncey Wrote:  I am building my passive income through sales, insurance sales.

It is neither glamorous nor easy but I am up to roughly $3,500/mo in lifetime renewal commissions, meaning I get paid that amount monthly until I die. I receive these commissions whether I am in the states working or in EE or SEA living the good life. It is automatic, guaranteed.

I have a friend that does the exact same thing you do. He is working like a madman to build up his sales. He didn't tell me what he is up to but I'm sure he is doing well. He says most of his clients are older, like around 55+, and they can be hard to reach. Last time I asked he was doing lots of direct mail and newspaper ads.