Post: #26

Quote:Your contention that Emperors took no interest in Church affair is untenable.

No, i said Emperors generally took no interest in religious affairs of the Church. They did take interest in political affairs of the Church.

Quote:Constantine made the Empire Christian.

No he didn't

Quote:The Council of Chalcedon was called by Emperor Marcian with the reluctant acqiescence of the Pope. Justinian created the second major schism by forcing the Miaphysites out of the Church. Emperors regularly elevated and deposed bishops. The Iconoclasm heresy was largely driven by several Emperors.

In other words, Eastern Emperors pretty much excluded every sect that didn't recognize authority of Emperor. That was my point.

Quote:Can you give some examples of how Popes have opposed the unity of the Church and have advocated for a decentralized church. Asserting it does not make it so.

By insisting on their primacy (why else do you think they are called Popes ?) and exclusive authority as leaders of The Church, which lead them to crown a new Emperor in the west. THAT was a schism, all later events were formality.

Quote:If you knew anything other than regurgitated Orthodox talking points you would be aware that it wasn't only Roman Popes who opposed CaesaroPapism but also Eastern Church leaders including amongst others St. John Chrysostom who happened to be the Patriarch of Constantinople, and St Anthanasius, Patriarch of Constantinople.

Exactly because I'm not using Orthodox talking points as a starting point of my discussion, allows me to absolutely be against interference of the Bishops in temporal affairs. Bishops, whenever they meddled into political affairs, almost as a rule always rely upon scheming, disruption and creating chaos and anarchy, because it is their nature to avoid direct and straightforward confrontation.

Quote:I'm not sure what you mean by the Papacy defying the Byzantine emperor as a legitimate Roman. Please explain.

He crowned a German in the west as a Roman Emperor.

Quote:The Popes weren't the only senior prelates to excommunicate emperors. The Patriarchs of Constantinople did too from time to time. For example Patriarch John II Cappadox removed the names of the Emperos Zeno and Anastasius I from the Diptychs for heresy, Patriarch Kallinikos I helped depose the Emperor Justinian II, and Polyeuctus excommunicated the Emperor Nikephoros II, and refused to crown his successor John I Tzimiskes.

Yes, but Patriarchs were frequently deposed, imprisoned and slain, in particular because Emperors ruled from Constantinople.

Pope defended himself in Rome for centuries.

Post: #27

(03-05-2016 02:09 PM)Orion Wrote:  

Quote:Constantine made the Empire Christian.

No he didn't

Mind elaborating on this? How can you say this? Christianity under Constantine went from around 10% of the total population to over 80% by the end of his life.

Post: #28

(03-07-2016 12:37 AM)Samseau Wrote:  Mind elaborating on this? How can you say this? Christianity under Constantine went from around 10% of the total population to over 80% by the end of his life.

Can you please tell me where did you find this estimate ? It would be almost impossible to make it.

Anyhow, in 4th century, large parts of Gaul, Britain, Iberia and North Africa were not Christianized. After all, not even much of Middle East was.

In fact, Britain got definitely converted once Western Empire fell.

Second, religion in those traditional times wasn't what we think off it today. You open internet, read couple of articles and you have revelation and tomorrow you go to Church to inquire. As an Emperor, you couldn't just go and tell people what to do and believe. Religion was a matter of tradition. People actually BELIEVED, or shall i say, honored Gods.

Also, important part of religious activity during Empire was paying respect to the ruler, what i mentioned in this debate. Emperor required Christians to venerate the symbol of sun as a homage to him, as well as other religions. That's how "solar", Roman type of Christianity came to be, as opposed to overly Judaic early Christianity, or latter Protestant one. In fact, Roman Pantheon prior to that was inclusive of many cults and deities, as long as they honored the Emperor by paying tribute to him in form of sacrifice or any other symbolic gesture.

So religious affairs were not settled as we would suspect in our modernity determined mindsets. There is A religion, B religion, and Emperor passed a law making B religion official. It was a process that involved many factors.

The way we celebrate Jesus Christ hence has much to do with our way of spirituality in general. There is a reason why we don't stone people, even though stoning is mentioned in Bible, there is a reason why we don't form lynch mobs and launch bombing attacks on our neighbors, there is a reason why we don't act subversive. We are by our nature wanderers, libertarians (not in modern sense of the word), we go hunting in the woods, keep dogs inside our houses, we are not obsessed of what our neighbors do, we are not obsessed with petty moralism, we can let other people do what they want and live with their actions. We do not need to raise the roof of every house to conduct a purity check, we generally prefer loneliness.

And earlier, plagued by guilt trips induced by engaging in "holier than thou" deabtes with members of more sand-mentality sects, i used to be uneasy with it, but not anymore. Christ can forgive us our geography determined ritual wrong doings, i believe.

Post: #29

(02-28-2016 07:33 PM)Samseau Wrote:  An infallible Pope is just plain ridiculous.

Papal infallibility is one of the most misunderstood concepts out there. It applies only under very specific circumstances and has only been used a handful of times(twice?) in history.

I'm sure you know that already, I just wanted to point it out since so many people, even Catholics, seem to think it means everything out of Bergoglio's mouth is inerrant.

Post: #30

Orthodox brah checking in.

Just wanted to jump in and thank the OP and all of you guys who contributed to this thread. I hope one day all the ethnically divided Orthodox Churches come in communion with each other.

Post: #31

(03-09-2016 07:48 PM)Anabasis to Desta Wrote:  Orthodox brah checking in.

Just wanted to jump in and thank the OP and all of you guys who contributed to this thread. I hope one day all the ethnically divided Orthodox Churches come in communion with each other.

They are already in communion with one another. They're just administratively separate. If you're Russian Orthodox there's no bar to you attending a Serbian, Greek, or Georgian Orthodox church. It's just that the liturgy, and hymns may be unfamiliar, and there's the feeling of it being "other".

One of the matters being discussed at this year's Great Council is whether the current hodgepodge of Orthodox denominations in countries like the US and Canada should be merged into new Autocephalus Churches. While parishes would inevitably retain their ethnic character, (much as you'll find Catholic Churches with an Italian, Irish, or Polish flavour based on particular immigrant roots of the community), they'd all be part of the same Church. It would also make it more inviting for people wishing to convert to Orthodoxy.

Post: #32

I have attended Ethiopian Orthodox Church service in the past when I lived in Canada. I was graciously welcomed and never felt like an outsider.

Post: #33

(03-10-2016 05:24 AM)da_zeb Wrote:  

(03-09-2016 07:48 PM)Anabasis to Desta Wrote:  Orthodox brah checking in.

Just wanted to jump in and thank the OP and all of you guys who contributed to this thread. I hope one day all the ethnically divided Orthodox Churches come in communion with each other.

They are already in communion with one another. They're just administratively separate. If you're Russian Orthodox there's no bar to you attending a Serbian, Greek, or Georgian Orthodox church. It's just that the liturgy, and hymns may be unfamiliar, and there's the feeling of it being "other".

One of the matters being discussed at this year's Great Council is whether the current hodgepodge of Orthodox denominations in countries like the US and Canada should be merged into new Autocephalus Churches. While parishes would inevitably retain their ethnic character, (much as you'll find Catholic Churches with an Italian, Irish, or Polish flavour based on particular immigrant roots of the community), they'd all be part of the same Church. It would also make it more inviting for people wishing to convert to Orthodoxy.

The Oriental Orthodox churches(Armenian,Coptic,Syriac,Ethiopian/Eritrean Tewahedo,Malankara) are actually not in communion with Eastern Orthodox churches.

Post: #34

(03-10-2016 04:15 PM)SigmundSauer Wrote:  

(03-10-2016 05:24 AM)da_zeb Wrote:  

(03-09-2016 07:48 PM)Anabasis to Desta Wrote:  Orthodox brah checking in.

Just wanted to jump in and thank the OP and all of you guys who contributed to this thread. I hope one day all the ethnically divided Orthodox Churches come in communion with each other.

They are already in communion with one another. They're just administratively separate. If you're Russian Orthodox there's no bar to you attending a Serbian, Greek, or Georgian Orthodox church. It's just that the liturgy, and hymns may be unfamiliar, and there's the feeling of it being "other".

One of the matters being discussed at this year's Great Council is whether the current hodgepodge of Orthodox denominations in countries like the US and Canada should be merged into new Autocephalus Churches. While parishes would inevitably retain their ethnic character, (much as you'll find Catholic Churches with an Italian, Irish, or Polish flavour based on particular immigrant roots of the community), they'd all be part of the same Church. It would also make it more inviting for people wishing to convert to Orthodoxy.

The Oriental Orthodox churches(Armenian,Coptic,Syriac,Ethiopian/Eritrean Tewahedo,Malankara) are actually not in communion with Eastern Orthodox churches.

True enough, but when people speak of Orthodox Churches on this forum they're usually referring of the Eastern Orthodox Churches. The problem with bringing Eastern and Oriental Orthodox back into communion with one another is that it it requires the consensus of all parties and there's all sorts of relatively unimportant differences that people can get hung up on. This article discusses the barriers preventing full communion between chalcedonian and non-chalcedonian Orthodox.

Post: #35

What are the differences between the Eastern orthodox and Greek orthodox churches? I have thoughts about joining one of them, although the reason is more about community and tribe rather than religion.

Post: #36

The "Greek Orthodox" Church is one of many "Eastern Orthodox" churches. As an example, my baptismal certificate (From a "greek orthodox" church) actually says that the said baptized person of the "Eastern Orthodox Church", etc etc. I always was happy it said that because it was testifying that we are all the same in doctrine and practice, which we are --- and it was an anti-ethnocentric/phyetic statement, though it's so hard to convince the tribal people that this is truly the case.

As a quick aside too though, since it is an "eastern" christian church there is, in a general sense, a similar meaning of "Greek Orthodox" as being easterner (and thus a surrogate term for EO) in the sense that the Roman Catholic church isn't roman (even in the modern day) but they call themselves that.

The problem in the West is that people are so woefully un/mis/mal-taught about the faith that even Orthodox themselves in so many cases are oblivious to the fact that Greek=Russian=Romanian=Serbian=Ukrainian Orthodox, and on and on and on --- it is one faith, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church mentioned in the Niceno-Constantinopolitan creed. It turns out that the "Orthodox" church is actually, also, the true Catholic church! (-:

Post: #37

Being raised in Serbia in a relatively secular family but still having been impacted by Orthodox religious holidays and traditions I became acustomed to this original way of practicing Christiantiy. Priests with big beards, byzanyne style temples with walls covered in frescos, choir singing and priests preaching in Old Church Slavonic that nobody understands, Christmas Day on 7th of January, burning of "badnjak" on Christmas Eve, celebrating "Slava" or family's patron saint all were part of my life. I was mindblowned by the difference between Orthodox and Southern Baptist Christianity (I spent a year in high school in American South). Mega church that looked like a standium, people waving their hands, modern music and flat screen TVs in a "church", normal looking dude or so called "pastor" analyzing Bible verses off of the screen, this is what I encountered. This all seemed unreal to me and I couldn't wrap my mind around the fact that these two seemingly completely different factions belonged to the same religion. Traditional Protestant churches in Serbia and other European countries seemed a lot closer to Catholic tradition from my observation, although recently many American style churches have been popping up thanks to the missionary work.

Post: #38

I'm super excited to go to my local parish. Does Eastern Orthodoxy teach that the Trinity are different manifistations of the same person, or that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are separate persons?

Post: #39

Because this is technical theological language, and it distinguishes certain religions or has caused divisions among ones at one time considered to be the same, it is important. The position of the Eastern Orthodox churches regarding God is first that there is one God. He is known, and has existed always, as three distinct persons (hypostases - Father, Son and Holy Spirit) that are ONE in essence (hence, there is one God). That is, they are uncreated and unlike anything and in that regard they are the same, they are God. Without going much further, they are beyond existence because that denotes a point of view that is human, in that we are created beings. God is beyond existence is probably the better way to say it, and as such we can't fully conceive of God, being created beings. That starts the discussions of what we can say about God (also including "what he isn't" = apophatic theology), and leads to what Jesus Christ revealed about God "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father".

My apologies for the long response (-:

I hope it helped.

Post: #40

You can find a lot of useful information about the history of the Church and the Schism (as well as theology) in the works of Father John Romanides. You can find some videos and his books linked in this great article on The Saker blog: http://thesaker.is/putin-the-pope-the-sc...nd-romans/ as well as on http://www.romanity.org It helped me immensely.

Post: #41

Orion Wrote:Unlike in protestant churches, Orthodox church leaves inspection of your mind to God.

Can you elaborate more on that point?

Post: #42

^^ Thank you.

Post: #43

(02-17-2016 11:16 PM)Panteleimon Wrote:  In the past few months, I have felt this call to look into the Orthodox Church. I was raised Protestant, but feel like many denominations are being blown around too easily by the winds of societal change. I recently read the Way of the Pilgrim and the Mountain of Silence which really ignited my interest into the Orthodox church. While there is no Orthodox church in my current location, there are some a short drive away. I am starting this thread to get some forum input on what an Orthodox service is like, and what constitutes being an Orthodox believer. I want to show up to my first service knowing what is expected of me. Any website or book recommendations would be much appreciated. Thanks!

Panteleimon, I am in a very similar situation for the same reasons. I recently attended an introductory series at a local Orthodox Church. We studied:

A Journey to Fullness
An Introduction to the Fullness of the Original Christian Faith

Father Barnabas Powell

- There is an accompanying video series. Workbook is very simple, does not overly dwell on the intimidating history of Orthodoxy, and is produced by a Greek Orthodox Priest that is also a converted Protestant (I believe Pentecostal) Christian.

National Crusader wrote:

"Being raised in Serbia in a relatively secular family but still having been impacted by Orthodox religious holidays and traditions I became acustomed to this original way of practicing Christiantiy. Priests with big beards, byzanyne style temples with walls covered in frescos, choir singing and priests preaching in Old Church Slavonic that nobody understands, Christmas Day on 7th of January, burning of "badnjak" on Christmas Eve, celebrating "Slava" or family's patron saint all were part of my life. I was mindblowned by the difference between Orthodox and Southern Baptist Christianity (I spent a year in high school in American South). Mega church that looked like a standium, people waving their hands, modern music and flat screen TVs in a "church", normal looking dude or so called "pastor" analyzing Bible verses off of the screen, this is what I encountered. This all seemed unreal to me and I couldn't wrap my mind around the fact that these two seemingly completely different factions belonged to the same religion. Traditional Protestant churches in Serbia and other European countries seemed a lot closer to Catholic tradition from my observation, although recently many American style churches have been popping up thanks to the missionary work. "

I had pretty much the opposite reaction:

- The liturgical Orthodox service is entirely new to me and a mystery to behold. Symbolism is deep and clearly meaningful, if difficult to follow. All senses are engaged (even taste as you may be offered bread as a token of friendship even though one should not take communion bread or wine). Honestly, it was overwhelming in some ways, but I am respectful and attracted to the faith. It is a refreshing departure from the un-solemn nature of many modern Christian churches.

My interest in the Orthodox Church largely stems from the commitment that so many believers have so devoutly demonstrated in my life.

A) Consider the dozens of Coptic Christians marched onto the shores of Libya, each man to be beheaded - refusing to simply submit and give the Islamic statement of faith. How many believers have been killed for their faith in recent years? Countless. Still, they hold on to their faith. Respect.

B) I have met 3 women and 1 man from FSU/EE communist countries that all admitted to having been baptized in secret into their Orthodox faith (some not even at birth, but as teenagers). Their parents attended to the matter at various risk or persecution, sneaking into the woods in unauthorized churches, because they had the faith.

Talk about the "Faith of our Fathers."

Post: #44

Ranch, keep going.

Among all of our failings, let us pray "That we may complete the remaining time of our lives in peace and repentance."

The days are coming in which many people will be neither at peace, nor be aware that faith exists, true faith being the fruit of repentance.

Cheers

Post: #45

I was raised Catholic, but the SJW tendencies of the church are getting on my nerves and I stopped going at the beginning of college.

There's a church in my area that gives Latin masses. I don't want to get too far off topic of Orthodox, but are the factions of Roman Catholicism that practice the Tridentine Mass any more conservative? It's the last chance (virtually, anyway) that I'm considering giving the church before I look around at other faiths.

Post: #46

Go to an eastern rite (Byzantine) catholic church, stugatz

I'll make the transition easy for you. (-:

It's no coincidence that having centralized power creates institutions that eventually become, like government, "of this world" = SJW

Post: #47

(03-29-2017 01:10 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  Go to an eastern rite (Byzantine) catholic church, stugatz

I'll make the transition easy for you. (-:

It's no coincidence that having centralized power creates institutions that eventually become, like government, "of this world" = SJW

Looks like there is a whopping ONE in my entire city! Melkite Greek Catholic Church.

I'll attend a mass, but as an Italian-Slovak it'll be a little awkward...

Post: #48

(03-29-2017 03:03 AM)stugatz Wrote:  I was raised Catholic, but the SJW tendencies of the church are getting on my nerves and I stopped going at the beginning of college.

There's a church in my area that gives Latin masses. I don't want to get too far off topic of Orthodox, but are the factions of Roman Catholicism that practice the Tridentine Mass any more conservative? It's the last chance (virtually, anyway) that I'm considering giving the church before I look around at other faiths.

Yes, those who attend the traditional Latin mass will tend to be more conservative. The new pope is definitely running me off from the Church, I'd be tempted to go Orthodox but I live in a Catholic country. The best I can do is try to find masses as traditional as possible. To me, a guitar has no place in a mass. To me, a "novus ordo" mass is more like a campfire kumbaya song than a traditional liturgy.

Post: #49

I need a new church, I was going to a heretical pentacostal church but they are fucking crazy claiming you need to speak in tounges to go to heaven.

I will look for a local orthodox church if there is one. I need a conservative church, I've been to one too many churches where the cucked faggot pastor says "Pray for the refugees" (not that I think the Bible says to hate them, it just seems more prudent to pray for the women they are raping and the victims of their terror crimes.)

I swear, much of Christianity is dead. The other day I fucked a chubby broad with dope pierced tits who claimed to be Christian. Of course, she cherry picked Matthew 7:1 as her favorite part of the Bible:

Matthew 7:1
Judge not, that ye be not judged.

(edit: I realize premartial sex is forbidden in the Bible. Show me a wifeable woman within 25 miles and I'll wife her.)

Post: #50

Like morpheus said, "All I offer is the Truth, nothing more."

Especially to us spoiled westerners at this point, the truth indeed means eating that amino acid gruel they had in the "real world"

Each man has to work his own path out, but there is no doubt that temptation and suffering are necessary for spiritual growth

Sorry to bring you down, but again, that's the truth