Post: #1

Although evolution has got the adaption and natural selection right, evolution has problems it still can't address. Are the media and evolutionary and parts of the scientific community covering up things? Natural selection is adaptation and people have known for years. Mutation is not random as evolutionists say, radiations and chemicals cause in a complex but predictable way.
Evolution is part lies, theories and part truth, they got natural selection right. Life evolving from non organic stuff over time is extremely unlikely. Complex functional proteins don't appear out of simple gases in earth's environment. Even the urey miller experiment where amino acids are formed from ammonia and hydrogen weren't great proof. The very same uv radiation that created the Amino a will break it, the amino acids were racemic ( left and right handed )mix which is not very functional to almost all life as amino acids occur one chirality in life.
Even a simple enzyme from a bacterium is around 300-400 amino acids long, it has be the right chirality, the precise cofactors present, environment, and precisely arranged to function. For the exact small bacterial enzyme of 350 chain long to appear from 22 different essential amino acids over time is almost impossible randomly 350c350 (1/22)^350... Less than 10^_400. Things don't appear one at a time, you don't evolve an eye without optical nerves. Things are coordinated.

The physical constants of the elementary forces are fine tuned for atoms and the universe to exist, any different there would be an universe supporting life or even atoms. If gravitational constant is a little too big, everything will just become a huge dense blob of matter. If the weak nuclear force ( the w and bosons) is too strong, nuclei of atoms would decay. Ratio of antimatter and matter and distribution of energy also show how unique is the universe. If antimatter occurred in the same amount as matter there would be just photons as they annihilate each other. People are brainwashed to believe this evolution stuff.

Radiometric dating is not even that accurate over tens of tnousand of years . Uranium and thorium dissolve in water ie when fossils get weathered or contacted by water. So u get carbon which doesn't dissolve , but it is only accurate up to 50,000 years that is if the carbon 14 remains relatively contained. The fossils ain't accurately dated. Dinosaurs ain't 65-220million years old. How can that Dino bone be that old, if they found soft tissues and DNa in so called 68 million year old bones(http://www.science20.com/curiousity_kill...bone-95449) it can't be possibly older than 100,000yrs if it has soft tissues and blood cells.
Even the hominoid fossils might be manipulated some say. They say Nebraska man is falsely made with pig jaw. Peking man or homo erectus might be primitive ape bones mixed with human bones.

It seems life is well designed or this universe is one of many many multiverses what happens to support life. There is an agenda to propagate this evolution stuff, to turn you away from religion and promote this feminism ,, socialism and atheistic, and consumeristic beliefs.

Post: #2

Interesting thread. Curious to see what other people have to say.

Post: #3

I've never once seen an Atheist converted to Christianity by a Christian refuting scientific facts with more scientific facts.

Christians play into the Atheist frame and try to come up with calculations for things such as fitting animals in an ark, meanwhile forgetting that if God does exist, miracles are possible, so who cares if the ark was too small. The creator of the universe would be able to do whatever he wants with it, just like the painter can paint anything he desires. If God does exist, a talking donkey, a parting sea, a burning bush, a man walking on water and a dead man rising are all trivial matters. If He doesn't exist, then of course they're impossible.

I think it's more efficient to examine the higher level of worldviews and compare how they account for things like absolute truth and knowledge. A more philosophical approach.

Post: #4

Yes a parting sea can exist and a man who walk on water too. That is with advanced technology. Atheists believe in evolution like a religions, even When you present facts, they deny it and worth their mighty theory. I was agnostic once but Then I became not.

Post: #5

Not this rubbish again.

Why not just come out and say it..."I believe in religion and therefore can't accept evolution".

It's better than putting forward nonsense arguments.

Post: #6

(01-24-2016 03:21 AM)avantgarde Wrote:  Life evolving from non organic stuff over time is extremely unlikely.

You see, this right here is what I consider a typical fallacious human logic when it comes to comprehending complex questions such as the origins of life.

We are often too locked into our own perceptions of time and scale that we become blind to the sheer size of the scales involved in the universe.

The origins of life from complex organic molecules evolving to simple single-celled bacteria are extremely unlikely on a human scale of time.

The human mind can already barely comprehend the vastness of numbers in the third order of magnitude (and just to rub things in, the first human cities that we know of date back to only around 7000 years ago), yet as far as we can tell, the (observable) universe is around 13.7 billion years old! 13.7 Billion!

Next, here is a very rough estimate on the number of stars (just stars, not even planets) that the universe could hold done by an Ithaca astronomy professor:

Quote:Kornreich used a very rough estimate of 10 trillion galaxies in the universe. Multiplying that by the Milky Way's estimated 100 billion stars results in a large number indeed: 100 octillion stars, or 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars, or a "1" with 29 zeros after it. Kornreich emphasized that number is likely a gross underestimation, as more detailed looks at the universe will show even more galaxies.

And given these incredible scales of time and domains, you would still believe that an unlikely event is impossible?

Think about it.

Post: #7

If anything I don't think that such ideas are in any way incompatible with belief in a higher power- all major religions that I can think of always refer to God as being beyond human comprehension: a truly infinite being.

Some quotes from the bible for reference, although I'm not all to familiar with the bible myself:

Quote:Isaiah 40:28 - “Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth, He will not grow tired or weary and his understanding no one can fathom.”

Quote:Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was, and who is to come. The Almighty.

Quote:Psalm 147:5 - “Great is our Lord, and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit.”

Next, what I personally thought was the most powerful passage of the Bhagavad Gita (now that I think of it, probably one of the most powerful passages that I have ever read), for you to mull over.

Quote:Arjuna said: O almighty God! I see in Thee the powers of Nature, the various creatures of the world, the Progenitor on his lotus throne, the Sages and the shining angels.

I see Thee, infinite in form, with, as it were, faces, eyes and limbs everywhere; no
beginning, no middle, no end; O Thou Lord of the Universe, Whose Form is universal!

I see thee with the crown, the sceptre and the discus; a blaze of splendour. Scarce can I gaze on thee, so radiant thou art, glowing like the blazing fire, brilliant as the sun, immeasurable. Imperishable art Thou, the Sole One worthy to be known, the priceless Treasure-house of the universe, the immortal Guardian of the Life Eternal, the Spirit Everlasting. Without beginning, without middle and without end, infinite in power, Thine arms all-embracing, the sun and moon Thine eyes, Thy face beaming with the fire of sacrifice, flooding the whole universe with light.

Alone thou fillest all the quarters of the sky, earth and heaven, and the regions between. O Almighty Lord! Seeing Thy marvellous and awe-inspiring Form, the spheres tremble with fear.

The troops of celestial beings enter into Thee, some invoking Thee in fear, with folded palms; the Great Seers and Adepts sing hymns to Thy Glory, saying `All Hail.’

The Vital Forces, the Major stars, Fire, Earth, Air, Sky, Sun, Heaven, Moon and Planets; the
Angels, the Guardians of the Universe, the divine Healers, the Winds, the Fathers, the
Heavenly Singers; and hosts of Mammon-worshippers, demons as well as saints, are
amazed.

Seeing Thy stupendous Form, O Most Mighty, with its myriad faces, its innumerable eyes
and limbs and terrible jaws, I myself and all the worlds are overwhelmed with awe.
When I see Thee, touching the Heavens, glowing with colour, with open mouth and wide
open fiery eyes, I am terrified.

O My Lord! My courage and peace of mind desert me.
When I see Thy mouths with their fearful jaws like glowing fires at the dissolution of
creation, I lose all sense of place; I find no rest. Be merciful, O Lord in whom this universe
abides!

All these sons of Dhritarashtra, with the hosts of princes, Bheeshma, Drona and Karna, as
well as the other warrior chiefs belonging to our side;
I see them all rushing headlong into Thy mouths, with terrible tusks, horrible to behold.

Some are mangled between thy jaws, with their heads crushed to atoms.
As rivers in flood surge furiously to the ocean, so these heroes, the greatest among men,
fling themselves into Thy flaming mouths.

As moths fly impetuously to the flame only to be killed, so these men rush into Thy
mouths to court their own destruction.
Thou seemest to swallow up the worlds, to lap them in flame. Thy glory fills the universe.
Thy fierce rays beat down upon it irresistibly.
Tell me then who Thou art, that wearest this dreadful Form? I bow before Thee, O Mighty
One! Have mercy, I pray, and let me see Thee as Thou wert at first. I do not know what
Thou intendest.

Lord Shri Krishna replied: I have shown myself to thee as the Destroyer who lays waste the
world and whose purpose is destruction. In spite of thy efforts, all these warriors gathered
for battle shall not escape death.

Then gird up thy loins and conquer. Subdue thy foes and enjoy the kingdom in prosperity.
I have already doomed them. Be thou my instrument, Arjuna!
Drona and Bheeshma, Jayadratha and Karna, and other brave warriors – I have
condemned them all. Destroy them; fight and fear not. Thy foes shall be crushed.”

Sanjaya continued: “Having heard these words from the Lord Shri Krishna, the Prince Arjuna,
with folded hands trembling, prostrated himself and with choking voice, bowing down again and
again, and overwhelmed with awe, once more addressed the Lord.

Arjuna said: My Lord! It is natural that the world revels and rejoices when it sings the
praises of Thy glory; the demons fly in fear and the saints offer Thee their salutations.
How should they do otherwise? O Thou Supremest Self, greater than the Powers of
creation, the First Cause, Infinite, the Lord of Lords, the Home of the universe,
Imperishable, Being and Not-Being, yet transcending both.

Thou art the Primal God, the Ancient, the Supreme Abode of this universe, the Knower,
the Knowledge and the Final Home. Thou fillest everything. Thy form is infinite.
Thou art the Wind, Thou art Death, Thou art the Fire, the Water, the Moon, the Father and
the Grandfather. Honour and glory to Thee a thousand and a thousand times! Again and
again, salutation be to Thee, O my Lord!

Salutations to Thee in front and on every side, Thou who encompasseth me round about.
Thy power is infinite; Thy majesty immeasurable; thou upholdest all things; yea,Thou
Thyself art All.

Whatever I have said unto Thee in rashness, taking Thee only for a friend and addressing
Thee as `O Krishna! O Yadava! O Friend!’ in thoughtless familiarity, no understanding
Thy greatness;

Whatever insult I have offered to Thee in jest, in sport or in repose, in conversation or at
the banquet, alone or in a multitude, I ask Thy forgiveness for them all, O Thou Who
art without an equal!

For Thou art the Father of all things movable and immovable, the Worshipful, the Master
of Masters! In all the worlds there is none equal to Thee, how then superior, O Thou who
standeth alone, Supreme.

Therefore I prostrate myself before Thee, O Lord! Most Adorable! I salute Thee, I ask Thy
blessing. Only Thou canst be trusted to bear with me, as father to son, as friend to friend,
as lover to his beloved.

I rejoice that I have seen what never man saw before; yet, O Lord! I am overwhelmed with
fear. Please take again the Form I know. Be merciful, O Lord! thou Who are the Home of
the whole universe.

I long to see Thee as thou wert before, with the crown, the sceptre and the discus in Thy
hands; in Thy other Form, with Thy four hands, O Thou Whose arms are countless and
Whose forms are infinite.

Lord Shri Krishna replied: My beloved friend! It is only through My grace and power that
thou hast been able to see this vision of splendour, the Universal, the Infinite, the Original.
Never has it been seen by any but thee.

Not by study of the scriptures, not by sacrifice or gift, not by ritual or rigorous austerity, is
it possible for man on earth to see what thou hast seen, O thou foremost hero of the Kuruclan!

Be not afraid or bewildered by the terrible vision. Put away thy fear and, with joyful mind,
see Me once again in My usual Form.”

Post: #8

Dude , 29 zeroes compared to 400 zeroes that is minuscule. There is only around 10^82 atoms in this universe

Post: #9

The first problem with this thread is the title.



Science is the search for fact. Not truth. If it's truth you're looking for, Dr. Tyree's philosophy class is right down the hall.

Will be back to discuss more about this later. In the meantime, meditate upon this paraphrased aphorism which is about as deep as Hollywood will get with a mainstream audience about the nature of existence. Go back to Last Crusade and look at the scene's entire context. Cogitate particularly on the fact that while Indy's students are amused by this joke, Indy is not.

God save us from people who mean well. -storm

Post: #10

For something to be a fact, it has to be established to be true or be a piece of Info about circumstances that occured. You can't prove cells evolved out inorganic materials over billion of years. S***, you can't prove dinosaurs are 65 million years old, there are tons of archaeological evidences for dragons/dinosaurs, they are covering and misconstruing facts. Why would Herodotus talk winged serpents in the near east if they don't exist?( true he was controversial by some but he sounded he saw it in person) Why wouldn't so many cultures talking about dragons and Knights slaying them? They already found blood cells in dino bones but they are so in denial..

Post: #11

(01-24-2016 10:02 AM)avantgarde Wrote:  For something to be a fact, it has to be established to be true or be a piece of Info about circumstances that occured. You can't prove cells evolved out inorganic materials over billion of years. S***, you can't proof dinosaurs are 65 million years old, there are tons of archaeological evidences for dragons/dinosaurs, they are covering and misconstruing facts. Why would Herodotus talk dragons in the near east if they don't exist? Why wouldn't so many cultures talking about dragons and Knights slaying them? They already found blood cells in dino bones but they are so in denial..

Until you're mature enough to know when and why to write out the word shit, you don't need to be getting into deep philosophical discussions about the origin and progress of life.

Post: #12

I didn't know for sure if you could write shit on this forum. I thought it might be censored or you get warnings.

Post: #13

(01-24-2016 10:02 AM)avantgarde Wrote:  For something to be a fact, it has to be established to be true or be a piece of Info about circumstances that occured. You can't prove cells evolved out inorganic materials over billion of years. S***, you can't prove dinosaurs are 65 million years old, there are tons of archaeological evidences for dragons/dinosaurs, they are covering and misconstruing facts. Why would Herodotus talk winged serpents in the near east if they don't exist?( true he was controversial by some but he sounded he saw it in person) Why wouldn't so many cultures talking about dragons and Knights slaying them? They already found blood cells in dino bones but they are so in denial..

How old are you?

I think your natural home is in the conspiracy theory threads.

Post: #14

avantgarde, you aren't going to find any good answers to your questions. As much as people like to claim that evolution is a scientific process, it is ultimately a faith-based belief. It is unscientific because it is inherently unfalsifiable. Also, as you correctly noted, evolution completely fails to answer the most important question: the origin of the universe and of life in particular. It's one thing to argue that a man could evolve from a monkey. It's another thing entirely to argue that a monkey could evolve from a rock. Most evolutionists (that is, people who "believe" in evolution) are scientifically illiterate, and take the theory literally on faith. Many others, even with science backgrounds, mostly accept it based on peer pressure or simply take it for granted as being true without ever really diving into the details or asking the most serious and difficult questions.

There's a tremendous arrogance that goes along with the assumption that because mankind has achieved a high degree of scientific knowledge we have a complete understanding of the universe. When you actually consider what science is - namely, the observation and testing of the physical universe through theories and hypotheses in order to deduce natural law - it becomes obvious that by definition our science is limited. All we can do is observe and theorize based on existing laws. We didn't write the laws. Mankind did not invent physics, chemistry, biology, gravity or electromagnetism. We discovered these things based on the inherent order of the universe. Our understanding is akin to that of a man in a pitch black room, stumbling around feeling at the furniture and trying to form a mental picture of his surroundings without actually being able to see anything.

The incredible, mind-boggling complexity and absolute elegance of the physical universe is apparent even with shallow study. Frankly, I find it incomprehensible that any educated man can deny the existence of a creative force behind the universe after gaining a solid grasp of mathematics and science. It is truly a blindness born out of arrogance. There is no other explanation. The fingerprints of a great designer all ever-present and ubiquitous. The idea that this incredibly complex design exploded randomly out of nothing into existence (literally what atheists/evolutionists believe) is an infinitely more preposterous explanation than that the universe was simply created by someone or something far beyond our comprehension (God).

CrashBangWallop, I've noticed you've been very negative on the forum lately. What's going on with that?

Post: #15

Scorpion, you hit the nail on the head. Evolution is not all faith based , natural selection process and breeding are well studied. The universe is complex and even some things knowm to men are kept under wrap.

Post: #16

(01-24-2016 11:01 AM)scorpion Wrote:  CrashBangWallop, I've noticed you've been very negative on the forum lately. What's going on with that?

Hmmm.

Maybe. I'll PM you.

Post: #17

I am really interested about this topic especially in this forum where we have so many bright minds with different backgrounds. This is a topic that I feel is one of those one that within the scientific community is merely accepted as fact among others and doesn't feel it has to defend itself against criticism because the creationists are just so silly and far out they aren't worth considering.

I am admittedly pretty uninformed on the topic but it just seems like such a loose science that whats the point in even accepting they proposed progression? I don't mean to come across as nihilistic, but seriously one new fossil is uncovered and now the theories get moved around to try to explain it. It is so flimsy, why the hell should I believe something that is based on such limited known evidence? And it sure as hell is not going to define my reality or existence.

Søren Kierkegaard said doubt lives off reasons, the more reasons one advances the more doubt is generated. It is feeding a monster what it likes in hopes of killing it. It is the same for those that hope to find reasons and Logic to prove God's existence. The more objective something is, the less passionate and the more indifferent we become to it. Something has more truth if it is lived with certitude and passion as opposed to something that is objective but now as doubt cast over it due to fear of something else objective that will eventually be revealed to shatter what is currently believed.

Someone who relies on the evidence of Evolution lives with more doubt and indifference which results in an untruth then someone who acknowledges the inadequacy of what they observe, but instead believes and act with utmost passions and certainty.

Again to quote Søren Kierkegaard he suggests The Ultimate Truth is an Objective uncertainty held fast with absolute certitude--an infinite passion that is generated from the inwardness which is stoked from said uncertainty. Therefore the evolutionist must accept the level of faith he has for his theory and believe it with passion, else he lives on a flimsy foundation of belief.

Post: #18

(01-24-2016 11:01 AM)scorpion Wrote:  evolution completely fails to answer the most important question: the origin of the universe and of life in particular. It's one thing to argue that a man could evolve from a monkey. It's another thing entirely to argue that a monkey could evolve from a rock.

Where science ends, religion begins...

If evolution only covers the monkey-to-man bit, then that's all it covers. You then need extra science to cover the next bit. Until then, the religious can maintain "well god made the monkey, but also the evolution process that turns it into a man". Once the next part of the process is discovered, they can say "well god made the rock, and also the process that turns it into a cell".

Post: #19

Evolution is a theory. Creation is a myth.

Post: #20

Imagine you were an intelligent, rational, logical computer. You observed the universe and came up with the most rational, logical, truthful explanation you could based on the facts, evidence and knowledge you had at that time, and then adjust that based on every change in data and evidence that turned up.

Imagine there were millions of you over time, all checking on each other, looking for errors, actively looking for new evidence, facts and carrying out experiments to test old knowledge and find new facts out.

This is science.




Imagine instead of this, you just made shit up.

This is religion.

Post: #21

I don't really know and neither does anyone else.


When you talk to them, hardline christians and hardline atheists are both special kinds of repellent assholes with severe adjustment disorders.


Be like Bill Maher or Ken Ham. These dudes make shitloads of money off assholes who think they've figured out the answer to everything.

Post: #22

(01-24-2016 04:12 PM)h3ltrsk3ltr Wrote:  I don't really know and neither does anyone else.

The problem with this is if you admit you don't know, then you can't tell someone else what they know. And that extends to knowledge about anything. If you don't know one thing, or there is a chance you're wrong, then you could be wrong about everything.

That is the biggest problem for atheists. Validating that their reasoning yields truth about reality.

Post: #23

(01-24-2016 05:16 PM)Sooth Wrote:  

(01-24-2016 04:12 PM)h3ltrsk3ltr Wrote:  I don't really know and neither does anyone else.

The problem with this is if you admit you don't know, then you can't tell someone else what they know. And that extends to knowledge about anything. If you don't know one thing, or there is a chance you're wrong, then you could be wrong about everything.

Circular reasoning fallacy.

And I'm referring to this quote:

Quote:I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing.

- Socrates

Post: #24

Kind of.....Decent text on it here:

http://interferencetheory.com/files/Harm...lution.pdf

Post: #25

(01-24-2016 05:36 PM)h3ltrsk3ltr Wrote:  

(01-24-2016 05:16 PM)Sooth Wrote:  

(01-24-2016 04:12 PM)h3ltrsk3ltr Wrote:  I don't really know and neither does anyone else.

The problem with this is if you admit you don't know, then you can't tell someone else what they know. And that extends to knowledge about anything. If you don't know one thing, or there is a chance you're wrong, then you could be wrong about everything.

Circular reasoning fallacy.

And I'm referring to this quote:

Quote:I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing.

- Socrates

Right, so what's the solution? Obviously we know things.