Post: #26

(01-07-2016 05:43 PM)mickeyd Wrote:  i dont post here often, mostly lurk, but i see alot of my former self in you, so i'll throw in my two cents.

First off, you're naturally a pretty skinny dude. Genetically speaking, you need to get rid of the idea that working out will get you jacked (unless you stick with your workouts perfectly for 15+ years or go on steroids). Your workout is very regimented like a typical bodybuilding routine and you are measuring out your diet based on a "bulking" phase.

IMO you need to focus more on athleticism. Bodybuilding routines and bulking are designed for heavy men who move heavy weights.

The best thing you can do for yourself is to pick up a sport, particularly a combat sport like boxing or wrestling. I would advise against kickboxing, jiu-jitsu or other technical martial arts as they require a high level of coordination on a basic level,(ex: you cant start playing soccer quickly if you've never kicked a ball ever but you could pick up playing ultimate frisbee at a very basic level in only a few weeks even if youve never thrown a frisbee)

so I'll wrap this up for you as im tired of typing lol.

1. take 6 months off of any weight training to let your injury heal, or else you might have a nagging injury that will bother you for years to come.

2. Look into a boxing or wrestling gym. It will give you a competitive drive, you will be stronger and faster from a fight or flight response.

3. After healing your injury, start with a very basic program. Pullups, pushups, squats, shoulder press. Ditch the bench press. Try a dip assist machine. Don't follow reps and sets for gospel, the key is to always push yourself.

4. Don't bulk! skinny + bulking = skinny fat. Eat 3 solid meals a day and a protein shake before bed. and drink lots of water.

Maybe this is a good idea, to pick up boxing or wrestling. I've considered it in the past, several physios have told me as well. Why don't you just go play a sport and ditch the fitness as it's not for everyone. However I really like fitness and really like the physical benefits it gave me. Even though my bodyfat increased I've also gained a bit of muscle and people seem to notice, the small things help. Whenever I look at my peers though that are eating like shit and only go to the gym 2x a week at max doing random bodyparts like chest and bicep and making the same if not faster gains than me I start to get discouraged and forget why I started.

Post: #27

(01-08-2016 02:36 PM)mickeyd Wrote:  Your goal physique is far far and beyond what you should be aiming for. Did you even read my post. If you couldn't tell, that guy is an elite level gymnast, possibly an Olympian. Training for them starts at age 3 and he is in the top percentile of those pupils. Ironically, you should also be aware that a physique like that is largely achieved without free weights. Food for thought.

Yes I did read your post. Shoot for the stars I guess.. I don't think I'll ever be able to reach that physique but if I train to get that physique and come anywhere close I'd be really happy.

Post: #28

Zezay, is it because of your shoulder why you can only do 5 push-ups? Try the yoga and/or swimming 3 times a week, time duration of 45mins-1 hour for six weeks. 10 mins won't cut it, that's warm up.

Post: #29

(01-08-2016 02:45 PM)Moma Wrote:  Zezay, is it because of your shoulder why you can only do 5 push-ups? Try the yoga and/or swimming 3 times a week, time duration of 45mins-1 hour for six weeks. 10 mins won't cut it, that's warm up.

I think so, I have a lot of front delt strain though, not side pec strain like I do on bench press. I also don't do pushups regularly so that could be a factor as well however the bench press works the same muscles so I don't know about that. Ill stop doing yoga everyday and do like 45 minutes 3x a week on youtube, have enough time anyway. The clubs here indeed cost money, youtube should be good enough

Post: #30

On second review, the goal physique guy is a weightlifter in that pic ( I was on my phone and couldn't see it in detail.) Regardless my point still stands.

You have to take a more wholistic approach to your fitness. You've damaged your body because your tendons and joints were not prepared for the rapid stress you were putting on them. Take things slower. Eat less. Stretch more. And enjoy the process, don't get fixated on results. I would set a goal for you around 180 pounds, sub 15% body fat, and 10 dips,10 pullups, and 10 squats x bodyweight

Post: #31

Front delt strain may mean your shoulders are tight, I had this same problem and have been working through it for awhile. I was up to 160 pullups and pushups per gym session and the results were much better than any gym rountine.

No one can give you a gym routine without seeing if you are performing the basic moves correct. What might work for person A, doesn't mean it will work for person B.

The reason why I said to do basic body weights exercises is because you can do them at home or in a park.

As someone else mentioned, the results may take up to 3 years of consistent training before you see changes in your body. I myself was a skinny kid at 16, it took me years to get a decent frame and I didn't start training seriously until I was 25.

I started out with a bigger belly than you.

Post: #32

16 is young. I can tell from your pics your a long way from done growing.

My advice is ease up.

I would not go so heavy on the weights since it will stunt and stall your development if your not done growing yet.

Focus on high reps to build size versus overloading your system with heavy and taxing weight. Your body does not have the hormone capacity to rebound back from that amount of stress so you have to cap your activity.

Keep to classic body weight workouts to build strength.

Push ups.

Pull ups.

Dips

You can build finer grain fibers of strength by doing heavy labour. Go be a roofer or help dig and landscape when your off school. It isn't cool like the gym but it will mold you into a stronger man much quicker than the weight room will at your age.

Still to this day my best shape and strongest my legs have been we're from football and just running around on grass and doing sprints up and down hill. My legs were massive and even at my best PRs for squats now, my legs never are not as dense and strong as they were back then.

And back then all the big dudes I played football with got big from working on the farm growing up. None of us got big from the weight room like that, and the ones that did, are all stumpy dudes now who are not tall at all. Even for the big guys it was a big deal pushing up 135 back st that age.

Only my homie was a freak in the gym doing 225 in HS since he stared lifting in grade school! He is short as shit now at my age, while his brothers are all tall. It sounds like I am talking a lot of anecdotes but the science backs it up that heavy lifting before your done pumping out puberty stunts your growth. I am living proof as I should be much taller but lifted to heavy to early and never slept well.

At your age you want to give your body constant work that is within its own limits to not cap your growth. Doing more natural body strength training won't stress your adrenals. You might see kids your age busting heavy weights but they will be stumpy and short when you all are 19 and you will speed ahead of them with a built up layer of real strength from the advice above.

Post: #33

(01-08-2016 02:19 PM)ZeZay Wrote:  I've already went to the doctor a few times and they didn't think an MRI scan was needed.

Did you go to an orthopedist or a general practitioner? Very important distinction. An orthopedist is who you want to see for injuries from lifting or sports. If you did see an orthopedist, did he do a range of motion test on your shoulder?

Post: #34

(01-08-2016 06:31 PM)eatthishomie Wrote:  Did you go to an orthopedist or a general practitioner? Very important distinction. An orthopedist is who you want to see for injuries from lifting or sports. If you did see an orthopedist, did he do a range of motion test on your shoulder?

General practicioner. Generally when I mention anything related weight-lifting to the doctor the advice I always get is that lifting is unhealthy and I should just do a sport, before they even looked at my shoulder or what is wrong.

Post: #35

Thanks for the advice everyone. I guess I should ease up a bit and not be so hard on myself for my lack of progress. I'll take some time off then try a bodybuilding type split, each muscle group only once a week, and see if that's better and relieves some of the pain. That way I get a lot more recovery than I do now. I'll also add the basic bodyweight exercises and try to progress on those. If something hurts I'll just stop doing it, and on the side work on shoulder mobility with yoga and stretches online.

Post: #36

^Forget bodybuilding for now, fix your shoulder and let it heal.
Do the basics until you can knock out 100 reps of push-ups, sit-ups, pull - ups and any body exercise you can do. I believe you said you can only do 5 push-ups, that is well below average. So there is no point hitting the weight room at this point.
Have you ever tried air squats? Try doing a 100 of those and your legs will burn.
Kosko gave you great advice.

Post: #37

(01-09-2016 01:42 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  ^Forget bodybuilding for now, fix your shoulder and let it heal.
Do the basics until you can knock out 100 reps of push-ups, sit-ups, pull - ups and any body exercise you can do. I believe you said you can only do 5 push-ups, that is well below average. So there is no point hitting the weight room at this point.
Have you ever tried air squats? Try doing a 100 of those and your legs will burn.
Kosko gave you great advice.

So should I do those bodyweight exercises 3x a week or every day or something? And what can I do when I can't do a single dip?

Post: #38

(01-09-2016 05:04 PM)ZeZay Wrote:  

(01-09-2016 01:42 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  ^Forget bodybuilding for now, fix your shoulder and let it heal.
Do the basics until you can knock out 100 reps of push-ups, sit-ups, pull - ups and any body exercise you can do. I believe you said you can only do 5 push-ups, that is well below average. So there is no point hitting the weight room at this point.
Have you ever tried air squats? Try doing a 100 of those and your legs will burn.
Kosko gave you great advice.

So should I do those bodyweight exercises 3x a week or every day or something? And what can I do when I can't do a single dip?

Dip assist machine. if its available to you. do assisted pullups also. A pullup assist machine and a dip assist machine are usually combined into one. they look like this.



I said before, there is no perfect set+rep system to give you super results at your stage. Theres only one method and thats hard work. Starting out it should be difficult to do 20 pushups or more in a row. And you should feel sore like normal weightlifting the days following. Build yourself up until you are knocking out those 100 pushups everyday without any soreness or fatigue carrying into the next day.

Post: #39

Hey man, I'm 16 years old and I've been lifting for about 9 months, with fantastic results. Now let me just preface my advice by saying that you should definitely take care of your injuries before you start lifting serious weights. My friend has had shoulder issues and it totally limited his potential. But even worse, if you don't get it 100% taken care of you could really fuck up your shoulder to the point where your lifts will suffer for life. Personally, I believe especially at our age, your physique/strength gains are mostly luck. By luck I mean good genetics, good muscle insertions, good metabolism, high natural T etc. Your strength seems way way below where it should be, even for your "before" stats. Now are you sure you're pushing yourself to your max? It may not be the best idea with your pre-existing injuries but from what I notice training my friends is that they make slower progress because they don't fully push themselves. They aren't struggling to hit a few more reps, nor setting small goals such as maybe setting a PR 10lbs heavier by the next 2 weeks. IMO, just ditch strict programs altogether. You're still in an experimental stage, and doing 3-5 sets of all the major lifts, and in addition some supplementary lifts (ie curls, leg press, incline bench, skull crushers, etc) you will see gains. What I recommend is "Body of A Spartan" by Vic Pride, as it basically just gives you some good exercises, but no rigid program (also, hes a manosphere blogger). TBH I dont see the point of strictly counting macros and limiting cheat meals at this stage. Eat lots of meats, dairy, nuts etc. As long as you're not eating disgusting processed shit you'll be fine. And as for your goal physique, that guy is most likely juicing. His physique is attainable through either many years of incredibly strict training and dieting, or he's shooting trenbolone up his ass. However, if this is the physique type you want, keep working out with a focus on muscles that are prominent on his body. Just know that naturally, it would be difficult to attain his size/definition. Keep us updated on your training, I want to see how well you progress bro!

edit: Just saw your diet, its a solid, healthy diet, but perhaps you should eat a small meal in between lunch and dinner, for example a sandwich to get in a few hundred extra calories.

Post: #40

I used to use my old schools park to do dips. The more old school setups should have parallel bars of some sort you can do dips on. A school yard will have all you need to do pull ups and dips. This is why we recommend those because it's the most basic (but important) of strength building. Unless you live a 3rd world war zone then you should be able to do these.

If your really hurting for a dip set up then get two of your friends and two chairs and make them parallel while they sit in them for stability.

Also doing reversed dips where your arms are behind you and your using a couch or chair against a wall is good enough. You can get creative. I used to do air squats with a water tower jug and use a couch for dips when I had breaks at my shitty grocery store job as a teen.

OP you got to toss out all the bodybuilding knowledge your reading. Not needed. At your age you just gotta put in the work. If you can't do one dip you keep trying each day doing a quarter...then a half...then a three quarter dip.. until.. you get to that day when you bang out one clean dip and then that turns into two dips, three dips, etc. At your age it is just doing the work.

Your body will respond fast. You can prrobaly do a clean dip in a week if you practice each day. Serious.

There isn't some 3 reps for 5 set nonsense.

Keep it simple.

Just go to your sofa, find a chair to put your feet on, grab the back of your sofa, and dip. Do dips still your arms are sore. Wait till they cool down, try some more, repeat until they are burning, spent, and you can't do anymore even after rest (full of lactic acid). Then. Stop. Rest. Tommorow you do it again. Over time you will notice you can go longer before you have to quit, this is you getting stronger.

Post: #41

So I'm saying this as nicely as I can: your program is part of the problem. I hate split routines. In my mind, they're one of the worst things that ever happened to lifting, and largely came into place because of steroids.

Here's what I propose: train three non-consecutive days per week. Doesn't matter which ones. Train three days ONLY. Those recovery days are what help you. If you have a shoulder problem, stop benching. Start overhead pressing. I have an issue from HS baseball, and I rarely bench.

Do the following workout 3 times per week.
1. Situps, 2x15-25. Once you hit 25 in both sets, put a 5 lb/2.2 kg plate behind your head and work back up.
2. OHP: 2x 8-12. Start with 8 in each set, and work your way up to 12. When you hit 12, add 5 lbs and drop back to 8.
3. Upright rowing: 2x8-12. Use a wider grip on these. Do not put the hands next to each other. You WILL eventually impinge your shoulder.
4. Squat: 2x8-12.
5. Breathing pullover 1x10-15 after each set of squats. Use a LIGHT (20-30 lbs MAX) dumbbell. This is for chest expansion.
6. Bent over rowing: 2x8-12
7. Deadlift: 2x8-12.

You're not working with ponderously heavy weights in this workout, those will come later. Do this for about 6 weeks and see where you are.

This is not my program, it's actually Tommy Kono's. Kono was a great American weightlifter (and bodybuilder, when they weren't that different) of the 1950s. I believe in supplementary bodybuilding work, but I also do more weightlifting exercises than the workout I provided (e.g. high pulls, cleans, jerks, etc.).

Post: #42

(01-08-2016 12:01 AM)eatthishomie Wrote:  Rotating upper/lower split is a very good split for bulking also.

UPPER: hitting the entire upper body with compound movements and a few select isolations
sample upper workout: bent over barbell rows, dumbbell floor press, rack pulls, weighted push-ups, alternating front/lateral raises, tricep pushdowns, reverse grip lat pulldowns (good sub for chinups if they bother your shoulder), face pulls, ab machine

LOWER: same thing for the lower body
sample lower workout: barbell front squats, calf raises, leg press, romanian deadlifts, captains chair leg raises, lying hamstring curls

rotator cuff work can be done on one of the rest days or at the end of one of the upper days

The first two weeks would look like this:

MON: upper A
TUE: rest
WED: lower A
THU: rest
FRI: upper B
SAT: rest
SUN: lower B
MON: rest
TUE: upper A
WED: rest
THU: lower A
FRI: rest
SAT: upper B
SUN: rest
MON: lower B

and so on. Workouts will be on different days every week due to the rotating nature of the split but you'll hit the upper body and lower body twice in a one-week period - frequency - and you get a rest day in between each workout day which is important. It's surprisingly effective to run for a month or two during a bulk once you plateau with whatever your current split is.

I'm an ectomorph, was especially skinny like you in high school. I graduated 6'4" @ 180 lbs.. pretty thin. My muscles are very wiry.>> nurture that injury FIRST.. THEN..

I would agree with the upper, lower split because of one simple aspect. At your age, your'e gonna heal hella fast. I wouldn't recommend crazy heavy weight at your age...<< preserves joints for when you get older. DON'T make the same mistakes I did which was pushing too heavy too young, which for me, started a host of joint problems that carried into adulthood, and got much worse.

Reps should be at least in the 8-10 range or more, on every thing. Really work on the squeeze too. Ideally, you want to lift the muscle slightly still sore from the previous time. (thus the upper lower split) And make sure you stretch every. single. day. Static stretches, holding 20 sec+ to be sure to get a good stretch.

I was 195-205 for a long, long time until I got into my 30s.. but my lifting was very sporadic in my 20s and early 30s. By mid 30s I got up to 225, about same body fat as you. I peaked at 260 3 years ago, about 3% higher body fat than you. Now I've settled down to 228-235 stable weight. And I feel healthy yet maintained functionality in my body despite destroying my joints lifting very heavy to get to 260.

Even though much of what I've said seems to have a "body weight" focus (something think ectomorphs tend to stress more than needed), the REAL goal should be to both maintain strength, AND look good in the mirror. Cheers, GL to ya kid.

2 more things. Add a few more calories, because constantly sore muscles, are constantly calorie burning muscles. AND. Don't underestimate the value of hard leg lifting, just make sure you're form is great before you pile on weight (another mistake I made). A tree is grown from a solid trunk. The growth hormones released during lifting the massive muscles in your legs spread across your entire musculature.. thus, it's easier to get a big upper body when your legs have mass.

Post: #43

Okay so there seems to be a mix of opinions here. I think like what most said, I should stick with the basic bodyweight exercises while my shoulder heals. I've lifted for over a year with weights and a bodybuilder style workout but my bodyweight exercises didn't improve at all, and those seem to be the core of your strength. I'll take a break from all reps/sets kind of mentality and just push myself on the exercises.

Post: #44

(01-10-2016 06:10 AM)ZeZay Wrote:  Okay so there seems to be a mix of opinions here. I think like what most said, I should stick with the basic bodyweight exercises while my shoulder heals. I've lifted for over a year with weights and a bodybuilder style workout but my bodyweight exercises didn't improve at all, and those seem to be the core of your strength. I'll take a break from all reps/sets kind of mentality and just push myself on the exercises.

Do yourself a favor and go to an actual bodybuilding/strength forum and ask for help there.

Post: #45

(01-09-2016 05:04 PM)ZeZay Wrote:  And what can I do when I can't do a single dip?

You can do the negative part of the dip where your body is moving down with gravity.

Start from standing flat on the ground with your hands positioned on the parallel bars for a dip. Jump up to the top of the range of motion using just your legs. Then control it down slowly with your upper body muscles. Like a dip, but you're doing only the down part, not the up part.

Put dips at the very beginning of your workout, when shoulders etc are completely fresh.

Post: #46

Quote:Do yourself a favor and go to an actual bodybuilding/strength forum and ask for help there.

+1

You should join over at the Starting Strength forums even if you do a different program. Lots of good knowledge and advice there.

Post: #47

(01-10-2016 01:38 PM)RioNomad Wrote:  

(01-10-2016 06:10 AM)ZeZay Wrote:  Okay so there seems to be a mix of opinions here. I think like what most said, I should stick with the basic bodyweight exercises while my shoulder heals. I've lifted for over a year with weights and a bodybuilder style workout but my bodyweight exercises didn't improve at all, and those seem to be the core of your strength. I'll take a break from all reps/sets kind of mentality and just push myself on the exercises.

Do yourself a favor and go to an actual bodybuilding/strength forum and ask for help there.

yes I'm sure the misc will be of so much help

Post: #48

(01-10-2016 03:08 PM)britchard Wrote:  

(01-10-2016 01:38 PM)RioNomad Wrote:  

(01-10-2016 06:10 AM)ZeZay Wrote:  Okay so there seems to be a mix of opinions here. I think like what most said, I should stick with the basic bodyweight exercises while my shoulder heals. I've lifted for over a year with weights and a bodybuilder style workout but my bodyweight exercises didn't improve at all, and those seem to be the core of your strength. I'll take a break from all reps/sets kind of mentality and just push myself on the exercises.

Do yourself a favor and go to an actual bodybuilding/strength forum and ask for help there.

yes I'm sure the misc will be of so much help

A lot more help than you've been to anyone on this forum, ever.

And I didn't say Misc. Nice snarky attitude though. It's cute.

Post: #49

(01-09-2016 04:13 AM)ZeZay Wrote:  

(01-08-2016 06:31 PM)eatthishomie Wrote:  Did you go to an orthopedist or a general practitioner? Very important distinction. An orthopedist is who you want to see for injuries from lifting or sports. If you did see an orthopedist, did he do a range of motion test on your shoulder?

General practicioner. Generally when I mention anything related weight-lifting to the doctor the advice I always get is that lifting is unhealthy and I should just do a sport, before they even looked at my shoulder or what is wrong.

Go to an orthopedist. GPs aren't trained to diagnose sports injuries or even give nutrition advice. Your GP should have referred you to an orthopedist instead of just telling you not to lift weights.

I do agree that spending some time doing bodyweight exercises would be good for you at your age... it would help you build a strength foundation for when you hit the weights again and would have the positive auxillary side effect of helping to heal whatever joint injuries you may have already --- push-ups and scapular push-ups in particular are good for shoulder stability and health.

Post: #50

(01-09-2016 05:04 PM)ZeZay Wrote:  

(01-09-2016 01:42 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  ^Forget bodybuilding for now, fix your shoulder and let it heal.
Do the basics until you can knock out 100 reps of push-ups, sit-ups, pull - ups and any body exercise you can do. I believe you said you can only do 5 push-ups, that is well below average. So there is no point hitting the weight room at this point.
Have you ever tried air squats? Try doing a 100 of those and your legs will burn.
Kosko gave you great advice.

So should I do those bodyweight exercises 3x a week or every day or something? And what can I do when I can't do a single dip?

If you can do them daily, then do so. Minimum would be every other day.

I use to do them while watching a tv show, so when the commercials came on I would knock out as many as possible.

Not many people can do 30 push-ups or sit-ups, so if you can do that you will make better progress than doing weights in the gym.

I was killing the body weight routines, but did so much that my shoulders are tight now. I will give it another month and go back to it.