Post: #1

Just curious about the forum's opinion on this.

The moderators have ultimate say.

Post: #2

I am not a supporter of the movement, as I feel it is unnatural for men to want to shut themselves off from either women or society. I understand the hurt and choices that some men make, but don't belive it is in the best collective or even individual interests to pursue that route.

That being said, as men, we ought to have lively philosophical discussions about all topics, whether we agree with them or not. A key marker of distinction between SJW types and a neomasculine ideals is the rush to censorship on the part of the poz crowd. I say the free marketplace of ideas between men is better than a highly controlled and censored one.

Post: #3

(12-22-2015 07:39 AM)John Michael Kane Wrote:  I say the free marketplace of ideas between men is better than a highly controlled and censored one.

Ideas have to be compartmentalized though to protect them. Free speech isn't "everyone can say everything everywhere", it's more "everyone can say everything somewhere". If this forum was 'all ideas and speech allowed' it would get overrun by degenerates almost immediately. It would just collapse into pure "right wingers vs feminists & white knights" argumentation almost immediately.

I think MGTOW should be allowed, but only in specifically labeled 'talking about MGTOW' threads. Banging chicks is a very important, core aspect of this forum, and any group of men who want to come here and advocate giving up on sex should get pushed out.

Post: #4

I voted yes. I think it's a lifestyle that should be discouraged, especially for younger guys. Many of the older cats who subscribe to MGTOW do bring interesting discussion to the table, though.

Perhaps it should have its own "fence sitter" forum in the Deep forum, along with Purple pill and other not-quite-neomasculine philosophies. That way it will only be explored in an intellectual sense, and be somewhat isolated from the forums that encourage people to take action (Game, Travel, Lifestyle).

Post: #5

(12-22-2015 07:29 AM)262 Wrote:  The moderators have ultimate say.

I'm sure that if the moderation team wished to end all discussion of MGTOW ideas, they would have done so by now.

One of the things that makes a forum great is that we discuss things that we might not agree with.

MGTOW might be the last refugee of failure omegas, but that doesn't mean that the ideas presented by their camp are so dangerous that they don't merit discussion.

Post: #6

I think the best case to be made is for any man who comes onto the forum that is pushing mgtow that the established members coach the man and encourage him to learn game and get his life in order. Mgtow is a form of sjw behavior in my opinion, a massive pity party. People who are in that mental state need help. Those men who are already strong have an obligation to mentor those who are not.

Post: #7

But why? What is there to discuss?

Post: #8

I think the ideas in that space might be useful if you qualify it with "temporary". Then it's just what we normally refer to as 'monk mode': setting aside chasing women for a certain period while you focus on some other item of self-development.

But there's a key difference between 'discuss' and 'advocate'. We discuss feminism all the time.

Post: #9

If people wish to discuss it why would you try to ban it.

Banning something means you acknowledge it will do harm/be dangerous. By suggesting it be banned you make it out that the membership of this forum are unable to distinguish whether or not this behavior is conducive to a strong lifestyle.

Things like race trolling are banned due to their main goal of inciting anger and derailing proper discussions.

MGTOW while most use it as a crutch, is only that due to what others have made it into. Bastardizing the monk mode lifestyle so to say.

Post: #10

I'm not bothered really. If a man wants to do his own thing then let him. It is the men who hate on women just for having a vagina is what causes issues as they generally overlap with MGTOW.

These men were never in with a chance with women and have turned it into a special sort of hate which is incredibly similar to those feminists who hate men for not giving them the attention they feel they were entitled too. ie: being too fat, ugly, insane etc.

A MGTOW doesn't expel women from his life based on her being a female. He simply keeps them at arms distance.

Post: #11

I voted yes.

I've never heard of MGTOW until I got to this forum. When I checked out their websites, the philosophy of making your own way in life independent of women and society sounded good to me, at least on the surface.

If not for in depth discussions on this forum, especially in that MGTOW thread in the Deep Forum and the debates between QC, IIMT, thoughtgypsy, H1N1 and others, I would not have had a full picture of what MGTOW really stood for and what types of men it attracts.

I think that starting to disallow discussions like this on the forum may actually lead to group think and herd mentality, which goes against everything neo-masculinity stands for. Some disagreement is healthy as long as it doesn't devolve into ad hominem attacks. In fact, it can be thought provoking. It can even lead to paradigm shifts in individuals learning game and self improvement, or those open to learning how the world really works.

Let's keep quality discussions going in this forum. That's why I'm here and not on other forums.

Post: #12

I don't think it should be banned, at least for now. The reason why is that it tends to breed good discussions on here. In almost every case it results in good philosophical arguments about what it means to be a real man. Everyone's beliefs are challenged in a meaningful way and it helps us understand the different definitions of success everyone has on here.

Of course, MGTOW trolls should be dealt with the same way that SJW trolls are dealt with. And this policy can continuously be revisited. If MGTOW starts to damage the quality of discussion on the board you can always ban it later.

Post: #13

I started seeing material on instapundit linking to his wife's website (Helen Smith) about 8 years ago. There was a lot of discussion of divorce rape and bitchy middle aged wives withholding sex there. It really opened my eyes and primed me to be able to accept the red pill about three years later. Before that, I had a hard core churchian belief system. The MTGOW and Mens Right stuff helped me to see the real world as it is.

Post: #14

Nah, simply because mgtow is a philosophy of defeat and failure. I've never met a cool guy who self-identified as a mgtow.

Post: #15

MGTOW has only one idea, and that is "forswear all women forever". It has no subtlety. The problem isn't that it's dangerous, but boring.

Post: #16

I voted yes because this is one of the places where you can have an open, honest, and mature discussion about things.

There might be a thing or 2 a man can adapt from a MGTOW, however the majority does indeed seem different from what we preach.

I like open mindedness, opposing views, different traits - as long as we're able to discuss it intelligently and maturely.

Post: #17

I voted yes, if only so that we can demonstrate why it should be discouraged as a choice of lifestyle.

Post: #18

No. There are other MGTOW forums to be had and it is distracting. Former forum member Cardguy was banned specifically for being an MGTOW advocate. He was an excellent poster and started some awesome threads...like the day he discovered that they make screens for windows to keep bugs out /thread-33571.html , but was eventually driven out for preaching that banging hookers and doing your own thing is better than pursuing non-sex workers with game.

Post: #19

(12-22-2015 12:24 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  No. There are other MGTOW forums to be had and it is distracting. Former forum member Cardguy was banned specifically for being an MGTOW advocate. He was an excellent poster and started some awesome threads...like the day he discovered that they make screens for windows to keep bugs out /thread-33571.html , but was eventually driven out for preaching that banging hookers and doing your own thing is better than pursuing non-sex workers with game.

Dr. Howard, I'm quoting you because I believe your post is a succinct summary of the beef with MGTOW, and I agree with what appears to be your understanding of it, not because my post is aimed at you directly.

I have yet to read an all-encompassing, codified and agreed upon summary of 'The Red Pill'. Everyone can say what it means to them, but greater or lesser emphasis will be placed on some parts rather than others, and there will be swathes where one man's definition will not match another. In essence though, the only real, clear point of distinction between MGTOW and this forum, revolves specifically around sex, and how you choose to go about getting it.

This is a forum generously run at the expense of a man who makes a living selling people on the greater relative value of game. None of us pays anything to be here, unless they show support by buying a membership (or indeed unless someone is kind enough to sponsor you). On that basis alone it is clearly entirely reasonable that anyone espousing a view that is contrary to the view our host needs people to hold in order to maximise his own revenue should not find a platform here.

That said, as our host moves away from the 'fuck many sluts' philosophy towards something more mature and aspirational, it may be that there is a less hard line approach towards p4p/'getting laid isn't as big-a-deal for some as others' viewpoints that occasionally pop up. Hopefully one result of that shift would be that solid posters, such as Cardguy apparently was, are not banned over something as trivial, and personal, as where he chooses to stick his prick, or whether he handed the chick cash up front or went through a bartender or two as an intermediary to the transaction. Or indeed that men who otherwise share the 'Red Pill' virtues, whatever they may be, but who choose not to shag about, are not turned into pariahs. Indeed, Aldous Huxley said, 'An intellectual is someone who has discovered something more interesting than sex'. It would be particularly sad if the main criteria for posting here were to become base primal urge rather than intellectual aspiration. One might rather facetiously venture to suggest that such a principle might be drawn straight from the preface to the Khmer Rouge official state 1st edition of 'Bang! Cambodia'.

Post: #20

Why not?

Some of you guys act like this forum is life and death. Jesus, take it easy. We're just shooting the shit here.

Post: #21

As far as I know, mgtows branch into ghosts and bachelors, with ghosts swearing off women and bachelors still dating them. Their main concern is to shun marriage or cohabitation like the plague (and children).
And they see p5p as a much easier option than the game, saying that you pay for it anyway, if not with money, then time.

Post: #22

(12-22-2015 12:24 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  No. There are other MGTOW forums to be had and it is distracting. Former forum member Cardguy was banned specifically for being an MGTOW advocate. He was an excellent poster and started some awesome threads...like the day he discovered that they make screens for windows to keep bugs out /thread-33571.html , but was eventually driven out for preaching that banging hookers and doing your own thing is better than pursuing non-sex workers with game.

I am pretty sure that isn't why he was banned, he started some anti Jewish threads that got out of control, I think?? I don't remember, I may be mixing him up with someone else.

As for mgtow, I don't care.

Post: #23

(12-22-2015 02:03 PM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  Why not?

Some of you guys act like this forum is life and death. Jesus, take it easy. We're just shooting the shit here.

No way, man. I've been cashing my likes and reps at the local pet store.

Post: #24

(12-22-2015 08:12 AM)Suits Wrote:  MGTOW might be the last refugee of failure omegas, but that doesn't mean that the ideas presented by their camp are so dangerous that they don't merit discussion.

You're approaching it from the angle of a man who already has a strong sense of self. Someone who's desperate, who's looking for an easy option, this could draw them down a dark path. We say it's worth discussing intellectually because it isn't going to convince us, but we need to keep in mind guys who haven't been introduced to game, or are having trouble with it.

An open mind is a like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.

Post: #25

We have little to fear from other points of view. I've always taken the position that our ways of looking at things are most in line with human nature, historical precedent, and the needs of the present era. If this is true, time is on our side.

Much of the MGTOW way of thinking is an understandable reaction to a deeply toxic environment. At the same time, we have to be careful not to abandon ourselves to hopeless negativity.

I'm convinced that a good number of the MGTOW guys will eventually come around to our point of view. Many of them are good guys, but simply never found anyone or anything to inspire them. We need to be patient with them, and work on them as subtly as the mineral waters slowly forming stalagtites and stalagmites in underground caves.

Once they see that many of MGTOW doctrines lead to cul-de-sacs, they will likely start looking around for something that offers a more satisfying and rewarding conception of the world.

So if someone is discussing things in good faith, obviously there is no problem with that.

At the same time, the forum moderators know when good faith discussions slide into trolling. There are MGTOW trolls in the world, of course, just like there can be any type of troll, and they will eventually reveal themselves.