Post: #1

You guys generally love Eastern Europe.

To my knowledge, there are lots of smart people in these places. Either they have solid technical backgrounds in science and engineering, or they have a ton of street smarts and always drive a hard bargain.

1) What is holding those places back?

Culture?
Government?
Lack of natural resources to be extracted?
SJW's?

2) How would you fix it?

WIA

Post: #2

I've never been anywhere in EE except for a week in Poland and a week in Romania for work, certainly not enough time to really get a feel for it.

But I keep hearing that corruption is a big problem there.

Post: #3

If you fix the economy then you will have to deal with feminism

Post: #4

I would not fix it, if I had the power I would bring back communism. lol

Yes, I know it was a repressive system but it created some of the best women in the world. I have dated a few women from this area and it has always been a great experience. So much so, I find it hard to date women in the west.

Women in the west don't offer much, but yet they think that have a right to so many things.

Women in EE offer so much and yet they are grateful for the simple kind acts you show.

Post: #5

(10-18-2015 08:06 PM)Turkish Republican Wrote:  If you fix the economy then you will have to deal with feminism

I ask a question about the economy and you bring up feminism.


WIA

Post: #6

(10-18-2015 07:59 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  1) What is holding those places back?

- USSR & Communism = Ended in ~1989 - 1992, might seem like a long time ago but changing things takes a couple generations.
- New country = Similar to previous point, some are only 20-odd years old, they need time to reform and mature politically etc.
- Alliances & trade-deals = For example, the baltic states which are now following the EU model are doing quite well, whereas Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus have strong ties with the Russian economic-sphere, which ultimately isn't as lucrative as the west.
- Widespread corruption, nepotism & cronyism = Through all layers of society, e.g. business red-tape & bureaucracy, education, politics etc.
- 'Brain-drain' = the best and brightest find it easy to immigrate to the west with their skills, therefore leaving EE during their most productive years of their careers.

(10-18-2015 07:59 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  2) How would you fix it?

Changes will come naturally, they don't need to be fixed. Once you "fix" it then it becomes the same as the toxic west. Apart from the economy, in many ways their society is actually better than the west e.g. their culture, arts, literature and languages are rich, their men are real men, their women are beautiful and their citizens are proud of their country and blood.

OK yes there is economic hardship, but why not spend 6 months in the PC feminist west to earn your money and 6 months of the year go to the FSU to enjoy your life.

Post: #7

I'm in Hungary right now. To fix it's economy I would restore all the territories they lost in WW2 and resurrect the Austro-Hungarian Empire. They had a pretty good economic gig going back then with all the separate territories specializing in certain industries.

Post: #8

There are very deep problems in Slavic Culture that will take several generations, even starting now, to cure. I didn't realize it until I traveled, that advanced economies require a high level of general trust between members of the public, at least in most of the geography.

In Ukraine, I saw a low general trust level of people in each other.

Although they look like Europeans ( less fat however) it is more a pagan clannish society than a genuinely Christian one. In Downtown Lviv people blast though pedestrian intersections at over 40 MPH.

Most long-term Westerners I met there have had altercations or near altercations with their landlords because the landlords feel powerful in the situation, which led to them becoming abusive bullies.
However the last time I was there, several years ago, the younger men seemed more relaxed and engaging and less rigid than the older, paranoid, angry men.

The landlord that was pushing me around so he could install a higher-paying tenant had a son with him who was trying to get his father to stop bullying me as the Soviet style older man pushed me around the apartment and refused to let me take my guitar when I left.

But there still is probably a big brain drain there-- most of the smartest people I met were all trying to get out. One girl I knew who was very bright an became a stewardess ( a good use for English if she's hot) did a facebook posting "Will the last person to leave Ukraine turn the lights out at the airport." Then she did it herself.

Brain drain seems like a kind of self-sustaining vicious cycle. If you are bright, and see many of the other bright people leaving, you'll tend to think " I don't want to be stuck here with all the lunkheads." the more people get out, the more the others want to get out.

I don't know if this is true in Poland, a Catholic country. I saw a couple fights there on a visa run from Ukraine.

Post: #9

Get the population of that Eastern European country to swap places with the Swiss. Romania is one of the richest geographical areas in Europe. It's the people, culture and institutions that make Eastern Europe poor.

Post: #10

I'd be a great Tsar. Smart enough to be suspicious of my underlings conspiracies. Too lazy to want to micro-manage everything.

Post: #11

IKE, how long ago were those experiences? Hope all is well, are you really in Brazil? Hope you are having a blast.

Post: #12

(10-18-2015 10:05 PM)Jungle Wrote:  - 'Brain-drain' = the best and brightest find it easy to immigrate to the west with their skills, therefore leaving EE during their most productive years of their careers.

This is a strong point, in fact it's so prevalent that students in Hungary receiving state-sponsored university places are required to remain within the country for 10 years following their graduation. I lived there for a year, most of the young people are trying to leave the country, hence the measures above taken by the government.

From memory, I recall reading Hungary's population is decreasing each year by 30,000-40,000.

Post: #13

(10-21-2015 06:20 AM)malakaix Wrote:  

(10-18-2015 10:05 PM)Jungle Wrote:  - 'Brain-drain' = the best and brightest find it easy to immigrate to the west with their skills, therefore leaving EE during their most productive years of their careers.

This is a strong point, in fact it's so prevalent that students in Hungary receiving state-sponsored university places are required to remain within the country for 10 years following their graduation. I lived there for a year, most of the young people are trying to leave the country, hence the measures above taken by the government.

From memory, I recall reading Hungary's population is decreasing each year by 30,000-40,000.

And this law requiring them to stay has lead to them moving abroad for their studies even more. For example the number of Hungarian students here in Vienna has significantly increased during the last few years. Most of them won´t return.

Post: #14

(10-20-2015 05:11 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  There are very deep problems in Slavic Culture that will take several generations, even starting now, to cure. I didn't realize it until I traveled, that advanced economies require a high level of general trust between members of the public, at least in most of the geography.

This is a feature of a lot of the developing world.
- rule of law
- trust
- corruption
- security in person, security in property

Most transactions seem to be arm's length, but if every business/government transaction is adversarial it doesn't seem to make for a good society.

I'm wondering to myself if there are any advanced economies with no trust, or any good societies where everything has to be haggled for.

(10-20-2015 05:11 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  In Ukraine, I saw a low general trust level of people in each other.

Although they look like Europeans ( less fat however) it is more a pagan clannish society than a genuinely Christian one. In Downtown Lviv people blast though pedestrian intersections at over 40 MPH.

Most long-term Westerners I met there have had altercations or near altercations with their landlords because the landlords feel powerful in the situation, which led to them becoming abusive bullies.
However the last time I was there, several years ago, the younger men seemed more relaxed and engaging and less rigid than the older, paranoid, angry men.

I wonder if this is a communism holdover, or a function of age. (old men are curmudgeonly everywhere)

(10-20-2015 05:11 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  The landlord that was pushing me around so he could install a higher-paying tenant had a son with him who was trying to get his father to stop bullying me as the Soviet style older man pushed me around the apartment and refused to let me take my guitar when I left.

But there still is probably a big brain drain there-- most of the smartest people I met were all trying to get out. One girl I knew who was very bright an became a stewardess ( a good use for English if she's hot) did a facebook posting "Will the last person to leave Ukraine turn the lights out at the airport." Then she did it herself.

Brain drain seems like a kind of self-sustaining vicious cycle. If you are bright, and see many of the other bright people leaving, you'll tend to think " I don't want to be stuck here with all the lunkheads." the more people get out, the more the others want to get out.

I don't know if this is true in Poland, a Catholic country. I saw a couple fights there on a visa run from Ukraine.

I go back and forth on brain drain.

In the US, the class of 2008/2009 had all the education in the world, and came out to no jobs. Some may argue that it's a bunch of liberal arts majors, but China and India both graduate hundreds of thousands of STEM people - and they both have problems keeping the bulk of them in gainful employment.

The next part of that argument goes is that China and India aren't particularly "entrepreneurial". Or rather, those STEM people graduating are made to be employees not employers not start up kids.

In both places, powerful families are still the source of jobs. And a lot of wealth goes into real estate - which is an asset that doesn't require a lot of labor over its lifespan in order to get return.

So maybe all the smart kids leaving doesn't make a difference because domestic industry can't utilize them to make money.

Getting back to EE, if you can't expect your machinery to be in your shop when you show up the next morning, or if you have to pay a middle man to "win" a contract - that would certainly discourage the honest businessmen out there.

Good post IKE

WIA

Post: #15

Normally it's easier just to copy previous successes. South Korea after WW2, Japan after WW2, America back when the economy was growing at a sustained 10%. Whatever the features of those cultures are, just copy it.

The answer to corruption is always the same: shrink the power of the government, so there's less incentive. A businessman should only have to think about his business and act accordingly, he shouldn't have to think about who's palms he has to grease to stop them getting in his way.

I'd also install a mixed constitution. If you look at time preference statistics, east europe has some pretty bad rankings. Very high (short term) preferences, probably an aftermath of communism where you had to take and consume everything you could get or someone else would take it from you. This will fade, but democracy is only a step up from this. The presence of hereditary nobels and king would reorientate the country towards long-term, low time preference thinking, which is where capital and thus wealth comes from.