Post: #1

Sorry for the long post. Maybe someone will be interested without being too sarcastic.

I was dating 4 girls off of Match and one I actually had a lot in common with so getting her interested with some basic rapport game and framing was relatively easy. I make heavy use of hypergamy when dating since I'm not a looker and I don't have a lot of experience but I have a good body, make a decent amount of money, get to travel for work, and am a really accomplished artist. She is 33, I am 31. I am looking for a quality girlfriend and she fits the mold. She is single for 2 years out of a long term relationship. Since she's older, I am worried that I'm competing with 40 year old men and that she's looking for 'the one' on an online dating site, so no one will be good enough for her. I have heard that older women in their 30s are easier but maybe not when they are looking for someone to marry within 2 years. I am thinking that my age works against me here.

Date 1 (2 hours) is coffee on a Friday night and flirting with some basic kino. I text her on Sunday night and she re-initiates Monday morning and I call her to set up another date for next Friday night.

Date 2 (3.5 hours) is dinner and bar, and very fucking expensive. She's a half hour late, apologetic, and embarrassed about it, so I know she is into me. She sits with her leg on mine at the bar. We barely touch at the table but after dinner, when we walk down the street I guide her through the crowds by the back. I instinctively offer her a hand for her to help cross a puddle (like I would my mother, lol) and she takes that as a cue to hold hands down the street. After the bar, she drives me back to my car (her idea) and we kiss at a stop light. She stops in the parking lot to let me out but I tell her to park and I initiate a make out session before I leave. It seems like she might be intentionally blocking me from touching her body (it's dark) but I end up rubbing my hand up and down her her leg and she's enthusiastic about the kissing and allows that at least. She texts me when she gets home that she had a good time. I call her Monday night to ask her about how her cat's surgery went (yep) and we set up a date for another Friday night.

Date 3 (3 hours), I have her over my place for dinner. She brings over almost 25 dollars worth of food and wine so I take that as a good sign. After dinner, we are on the sofa and she has open body language, but I get performance anxiety so I delay until I can calm down by showing her funny videos on YT at my computer, most of which she thinks are hilarious. She sits with her hip resting on my shoulder as we watch. We kiss when we're done watching but I don't escalate. She's fine with me putting my arm around her back and resting my hand on her hip and leg, but she never touches me. I lie back on the sofa and encourage her to as well but she doesn't get particularly close. We talk for about fifteen minutes. I'm sitting with my hand rubbing her shoulder, our legs touching, and we hold hands. She says something cute and I kiss her on the forehead affectionately (I actually like this girl). We are connecting emotionally but I'm afraid that she's not hot for me. She excuses herself to the bathroom suddenly, (her eye went red so maybe it was a contact?). I put on some music and when she gets back she sits on the sofa. She has to leave soon, it's 11 pm and she has to wake up at 6 am for a 7 am running group. I sit back on the sofa and show her my art, and we start making out. I don't get grabby, but I am maybe a little too enthusiastic with the porno tongue, until I open my eyes and notice that her wrists are between her legs and her elbows are completely blocking her breasts, so I stop. I make a remark about her huge earrings being in the way of her neck and tell her I don't want to wait until next weekend to see her (a misstep) and she says "I'll let you know." We talk casually for a bit as I put on my shoes, I walk her downstairs, she turns around at the door, we kiss one more time and say good night. My most major misstep is that I was a bit self-deprecating over the course of the night. I suffer from depression and negativity gets out sometimes. I'm very stressed by having to cook so it's hard to focus and the conversation isn't amazing like it was the last two dates.

So the mixed signals, I'm worried that I missed my opportunity to escalate earlier in the night, and that I made a complete misstep by escalating too late in the night. I know that women can be very judgmental about men when it comes to how they escalate and taking risks. But I'm extremely confused by the closed body language. She looked like a rape trauma victim but she was fine with making out in that state, and it may have been the exact same thing that she did in the car on date 2. I sent her a feeler text on Sunday and she took 7 hours to respond (she usually responds within 15 minutes). I texted her this morning about going to a concert for one of her favorite bands tomorrow night (maybe a misstep but I thought it would offer value and I needed to buy the tickets immediately) and she replied an hour later "ohhh shoot I can't tomorrow " She is also still logging into her Match account daily. One of my problems is that I am an extremely smart and pessimistic person so I can analyze any situation to death and see everything as a bad sign, and I don't have enough dating experience to put any of these things into context.

Right now, I am completely indecisive. Should I simply call her tomorrow to try to make plans for the weekend like I've done in the past or should I ghost and return to contact next week? I am afraid that I came on too strong.

Post: #2

There's a lot going on in your post, so I'll off my two cents in pieces.

(09-22-2015 10:55 PM)evilbuttmunch Wrote:  Sorry for the long post. Maybe someone will be interested without being too sarcastic.

She is 33, I am 31. I am looking for a quality girlfriend and she fits the mold. She is single for 2 years out of a long term relationship. Since she's older, I am worried that I'm competing with 40 year old men and that she's looking for 'the one' on an online dating site, so no one will be good enough for her

Here's your first problem. I don't know why you're hanging around women your own age for any other than a quick flash in the pan. They've got baby rabies and their looks are starting show the signs of the lack of care their bodies received in their 20s.

You say you use 'hypergamy' to your advantage and then talk about dating girls your own age. Why not date 18-20 year olds? You're only competing with 40 year olds for the 30 years because they can't get the 20 year olds. You're in the sweet spot in terms of age where you can go as low or as high as you want. Unless there's something about your age group or slightly older that you like - you should stop hang out with them.

You're in a good spot to let hypergamy work for you - 20 year olds have a hard time competing with 30 year olds who've got paper and their shit together.

(09-22-2015 10:55 PM)evilbuttmunch Wrote:  I have heard that older women in their 30s are easier but maybe not when they are looking for someone to marry within 2 years. I am thinking that my age works against me here.

If you're thinking about a long term girlfriend or more, I recommend going a lot younger. Secondly, just because fatties are easier doesn't mean you send men here advocating you cast your pearls before swine.

(09-22-2015 10:55 PM)evilbuttmunch Wrote:  Date 1 (2 hours) is coffee on a Friday night and flirting with some basic kino. I text her on Sunday night and she re-initiates Monday morning and I call her to set up another date for next Friday night.

This a vague description in that you tell me what happened but not really. Like how politicians talk. What do you mean by kino? Did you briefly touch her forearm or was your hand on her waist or better yet her ass at some point?

(09-22-2015 10:55 PM)evilbuttmunch Wrote:  Date 2 (3.5 hours) is dinner and bar, and very fucking expensive. She's a half hour late, apologetic, and embarrassed about it, so I know she is into me. She sits with her leg on mine at the bar. We barely touch at the table but after dinner, when we walk down the street I guide her through the crowds by the back. I instinctively offer her a hand for her to help cross a puddle (like I would my mother, lol) and she takes that as a cue to hold hands down the street. After the bar, she drives me back to my car (her idea) and we kiss at a stop light. She stops in the parking lot to let me out but I tell her to park and I initiate a make out session before I leave. It seems like she might be intentionally blocking me from touching her body (it's dark) but I end up rubbing my hand up and down her her leg and she's enthusiastic about the kissing and allows that at least. She texts me when she gets home that she had a good time. I call her Monday night to ask her about how her cat's surgery went (yep) and we set up a date for another Friday night.

My first instinct, without knowing to much about this girl besides her age is to ask why you're taking her out to an expensive dinner? Why not a different date idea like ice skating, a walk in the park, playing pool, or some activity that you enjoy enough that it didn't matter whether or not you liked her.

Secondly - I don't have a good way to explain it in my head, but try to stop thinking about it in terms her 'allowing' you to do things.

(09-22-2015 10:55 PM)evilbuttmunch Wrote:  Date 3 (3 hours),snip

Even if you get performance anxiety - always escalate. If she stops you, take a break and then try again.

(09-22-2015 10:55 PM)evilbuttmunch Wrote:  So the mixed signals, I'm worried that I missed my opportunity to escalate earlier in the night, and that I made a complete misstep by escalating too late in the night.

You kissing her and rubbing her up and down in different places but failing to escalate or least try to get your dick, hard or soft, somewhere in and around her vagina probably sent mixed signals to her too.

Girls get confused if a guy doesn't at least try to escalate and look poorly upon men who don't.

Secondly, girls tend to take emotional cues from guys. So if you're stressed during the date it will show and the girl will start to get stressed as well. That combined with lack of escalation are what I think were your two major missteps. Otherwise, you were on track to get the bang if she was willing to be alone with you in your house.

(09-22-2015 10:55 PM)evilbuttmunch Wrote:  Snip... One of my problems is that I am an extremely smart and pessimistic person so I can analyze any situation to death and see everything as a bad sign, and I don't have enough dating experience to put any of these things into context.

Right now, I am completely indecisive. Should I simply call her tomorrow to try to make plans for the weekend like I've done in the past or should I ghost and return to contact next week? I am afraid that I came on too strong.

I was like you a lot 8 years ago, a little bit less than that 4 years ago and have some issues with that today from time to time. What issue? Being in your head - having all those possibilities swirl through your mind.

What it sounds like to me is that you need to get more experience with women so that you have a baseline of behavior of girls that you can work with. The more experience, the more you'll be able to gauge body language and whether or not a girl likes you, wants to kiss/fuck you, and how things are going in general. With your over analytical mind, it might take you a while, but you'll get there.

Try not to get yourself financially attached to any woman while you're learning - the price of the lessons you learn can be quite high.

Hope this helps.

G

Post: #3

First of all, don't hit her up tomorrow. You could try waiting a few days and attempting to reinitiate, but you probably won't see her again.

I know it's easier said than done, but you need to get out of your head. Relax, play it cool, and live in the moment. My most successful dates are the ones when I'm relaxed and having a good time and can sense that the girl is doing exactly what you're doing - overanalyzing everything. Girls are doing the same thing. Everyone gets nervous on first dates, but if you can relax and be a cool guy, she will feel comfortable and love you for it.

As for your concerns about escalation - you screwed up. The fact that she was lying next to you on your couch and you were already kissing is a huge sign she was DTF. Keep it escalating unless she stops you. She won't hold it against you even if she does - girls want you to take command here.


Anyway, my final piece of advice is to keep getting out there and meeting more people. You caught a lot of feelings for this girl and you don't even know her, but realizing the error in that just comes with experience.

Post: #4

Forget the concert. Relax. Invite her over again. Cook something you're good at so you're not stressed. Open a nice bottle of wine. Escalate and bang. If she rejects, next her. It happens. I predict you get the bang.

Post: #5

I read the opinions here (before HenryM posted) and was actually optimistic that she might be responsive since we had so much in common and she gave me so many signs of interest before the latter half of date 3. So, I called her up again and left a casual voicemail about meeting up again, saying that I still had another bottle of wine and the ice cream she brought over. She calls me back ten minutes later and we talk on the phone about what we're doing that weekend, and then when I go to ask if she's free, she drops the usual line that I hear nearly word for word every time. You're a really nice guy and I've had a great time spending time with you but I just didn't feel any chemistry and I think it's better if we didn't see each other anymore. She actually told me that she never felt any chemistry with me, even on date 1, and that she was only dating me because I was a super nice guy and she thought she should give me a chance. I don't believe this is 100% true based on the conversation and physical interaction we had on date 2, so i definitely feel like an ass for not simply escalating on date 3 and for not pushing harder at the end of date 2. She probably was feeling sexual attraction but I was pushing too hard for the girlfriend route and I should have stopped with the deep emotional rapport and boyfriend-y affection on date 3.

Is that what this mythical "chemistry" is that these women keep speaking of, because I felt like I had everything locked with this girl. We went deep into conversation and there was never any lull, we indirectly talked about sex and intimacy through our relationships with our friends, she thought I was funny (she actually said 'you're so funny'), she would smile sheepishly whenever I gave her a compliment, she had her hands on me on date 2, we made out with her tongue down my throat, and it was all so fucking easy because she was actually attractive and we had so much in common.

I'm still in the pessimistic stage of all of this relationship bullshit, where I expect I'm going to get a girlfriend without having to game women hard, but I'm seriously thinking of changing that attitude. Pretty much every woman I've gotten to know has proven to be a bigger asshole than the worst men I know. They date married men, stay with drug addicts and alcoholics, and men who sleep around on them. And they repeatedly tell the same stories ridiculing the socially awkward guys in the office who try to flirt with them.

As redonion commented about... I'm definitely getting more comfortable the more people I meet. I was way less upset over this girl than the last one, even though I liked this one five times more and got further with her. It probably helps that before it would take me months to find a single prospect that would never get to a date and now I was juggling 4 women at once. And my anxiety level was a lot lower with her than anyone else I've dated. It is very hard for me to be comfortable. I was bullied when I was younger and developed an anxiety disorder because of it. I had full blown social anxiety disorder from 22 to 27, where I barely spoke to anyone, and barely did anything of note except work. 4 years later and I'm doing a lot better but I'm still a decade behind everyone else when it comes to simply interacting with women.

Post: #6

I think the last date did it in when you didn't escalate.

I think you just gotta move on.

You could ask her if she's got any hot friends.

G

Post: #7

Escalate or die.

'Tis the way of the modern world.

Post: #8

Not to give OP a hard time but those three date reports are about as blue pill as it gets. There's nothing wrong with wanting a long term girlfriend but you took yourself out at the knees by muzzling your sexual interest in her. It sounds like you may have some confidence/inner game issues when it comes to escalating and that's fine, but it will take a lot more practice to get those squared away.

It may sound counterintuitive but in order to get comfortable with closing "the one" you need to be out there closing lots of ones that simply pass your boner test. It's exactly like the approaching logic you hear all the time "talk to everyone so that when you run across one you really like it will be no big deal approaching her".

You don't want to hear this because you want to believe that these women are special snowflakes and you don't want to be "one of those guys" but trust me, as a recovering Nice Guy you need to "be that guy" (one of the best Roosh articles of all time).

And yes, at 31 you should be slaying the early 20 something women like there's no tomorrow. They're just better all the way around. I'm 43 and have dated/banged several women under 30 and they're just so much more easier and fun to be around than the over 30 crowd. Take this as the great learning experience that it is!

Post: #9

(09-28-2015 10:34 AM)OregonToSoCal Wrote:  Not to give OP a hard time but those three date reports are about as blue pill as it gets. There's nothing wrong with wanting a long term girlfriend but you took yourself out at the knees by muzzling your sexual interest in her. It sounds like you may have some confidence/inner game issues when it comes to escalating and that's fine, but it will take a lot more practice to get those squared away.

It may sound counterintuitive but in order to get comfortable with closing "the one" you need to be out there closing lots of ones that simply pass your boner test. It's exactly like the approaching logic you hear all the time "talk to everyone so that when you run across one you really like it will be no big deal approaching her".

You don't want to hear this because you want to believe that these women are special snowflakes and you don't want to be "one of those guys" but trust me, as a recovering Nice Guy you need to "be that guy" (one of the best Roosh articles of all time).

And yes, at 31 you should be slaying the early 20 something women like there's no tomorrow. They're just better all the way around. I'm 43 and have dated/banged several women under 30 and they're just so much more easier and fun to be around than the over 30 crowd. Take this as the great learning experience that it is!

Evilbuttmunch, Oregon above has nailed it bang the chicks under 30 they're way easier. I do feel for you, I think you genuinely quite liked this girl but you must move on. I was going to post on her (my first) and talk of a very similar experience I had very recently. I too was after advice from my red pill brothers but I've read enough to know where I went wrong. I'm 43, have a nice place, car and just divorced, but it has been a while since I dated. Like you I met a hot chick recently who on our first meeting (through work not an actual date) was dropping into the conversation nuggets like how she was just separated etc. So I immediately set up a date but it panned out a bit like yours I was too nice. Lesson learned move I know, only thing I will say is that the 'lack of chemistry' comment of hers is bullshit and actually rather rude. You should have replied 'well you spent a lot of time twirling your fingers through your hair if there was no chemistry'. Don't let that affect your self confidence, next her end off. P.S I confess I was too blue pill as well, but it won't happen next time and next time will be real soon with someone else.

Post: #10

^New favorite username .

Post: #11

evilbuttmunch

^New favorite username

Post: #12

@evilbuttmunch, don't feel bad. You had 3 relatively short date's. Forget about all these "Alpha guys" who say you should have banged by date 2. Maybe they were getting laid when they were 13 and had model looks but majority of us are AFC's and in my case I ain't handsome so have to work harder.
I bet there are many guys who have worse stories than yours about being beta while dating a good looking girl yet they don't wanna loose face in front of the PUA community and come clean.

Shoot, if it makes you feel any better check out my thread about a Moscow trip I had earlier this year. Had a hot chick spend a night at my place twice and still couldn't score. She showed some of the same signs of "unease" as yours including locking the elbows and keeping her legs crossed. Several weeks later I found out she had done some near porn photoshoots...

My point is escalate...wait a couple dates though and then if she refuses drop her. I learned it the hard way as well but take it easy as with experience we all get wiser.