Post: #1

(Surprisingly, I didn't find any recent thread here about opening a bar abroad)

I am thinking of opening, beginning of 2016, a bar/pub abroad. Or a hostel combined with bar. Well, could you give me advice on that? Not that much about the technical constraints (even though legal details do interest me), amount of working-hours involved... but more like, where would you do it, in which city, and why there?

So I'm looking for a place where tourism is thriving, local economy is ok so people have money to spend, rule of law is quite satisfactorily guaranteed, visas are easy to obtain, foreign owners don't get harassed... and operative costs are low. This would be my bar-paradise (soon to be turned into poosy paradise, as a side effect - trust me on that)

I have some ideas already, some from my own extensive traveling, other from careful reading of this invaluable RooshV forum...:

Vietnam (Saigon, or a coastal city)

The Philippines (God, let it not be Manila, I dislike pollution)

Bali

Thailand

Cambodia (in honor of Beyond Borders)

Beijing, or Hainan island

Florida (or other place in the US, but excluding tourists-magnet Zanesville)

DF or Playa del Carmen

Colombia (Medellin, Barranquilla, Bogota... no Santa Marta, thanks)

Florianopolis
Buenos Aires

Kiev
Moscou, St Pete
Riga, Tallinn...

So, if you have a destination or two in mind where you'd think opening a bar could work out fine... thanks for telling me, and telling me the whys.

(Note: I'd want to invest just like 30 or 40 thousand USD, so, probably no ownership of the building, just renting the location)

Post: #2

No offense, but this seems like a sure fire way to lose 30 or 40 thousand dollars. Especially if you try this in a foreign country. Your foreign partner (which you will almost certainly need) will be the one to take you to the cleaners.

You didn't find anything about it because it is generally recognized as a really bad idea 99% of the time.

Post: #3

(08-27-2015 04:29 PM)Menace Wrote:  No offense, but this seems like a sure fire way to lose 30 or 40 thousand dollars. Especially if you try this in a foreign country. Your foreign partner (which you will almost certainly need) will be the one to take you to the cleaners.

You didn't find anything about it because it is generally recognized as a really bad idea 99% of the time.

But surely, not everywhere in the World would I need, by law, a local partner??

I did read on this forum, notably from RioNomad and Afarang, and it was confirmed to me by a friend who is also a RVF member, that you'd need a majority (51% of the business assets) partner in Thailand... but, in the other countries?

Actually, in any country, I would be a bit more concerned by the ability of the owners of the building to throw you out some day... I'd need a long-term ironclad rental contract...

And well, I also read here that it is usually considered a bad idea (to open a bar), but... for example, once I was in Sihanoukville, I saw so many bars opened by foreigners... surely, some of them thrive. Same in Medellin...?

Post: #4

That lifestyle sure seems cool.

Till you have to be there every night or your staff will steal your money.

Or until the local gangsters start shaking you down every week.

Or until you realise working full time in paradise is not living full time in paradise.

Or...ad infinitum.

It's just a bad idea, more than the 99% of the time mentioned above.

Post: #5

You wouldn't need one by law necessarily but it wouldn't be wise to try to start your business in a country who's laws you didn't know inside and out - not to mention the stuff they don't tell you (i.e. bribes).

Post: #6

(08-27-2015 04:36 PM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  That lifestyle sure seems cool.

Till you have to be there every night or your staff will steal your money.

Or until the local gangsters start shaking you down every week.

Or until you realise working full time in paradise is not living full time in paradise.

Or...ad infinitum.

It's just a bad idea, more than the 99% of the time mentioned above.

About stealing money, I read here that I can just put CCTV cameras everywhere...

Working fulltime to cash in good money doesn't frighten me...

But, the "local gangsters", and as Gmac said, the hidden laws-regulations, necessary bribes, concern me more... But once again, surely not all the countries are that fucked-up, in my list?

What I am looking for, is a country where bribes and shake-ups are... moderate. Like, I had a friend who opened a cybercafe in Latin America, he had to give a very reasonable sum of money to the police every 15 days or so, and that was it... if I'd need to give 100 USD every other week to the local cops, I can live with that.

Post: #7

Well, DC is the only place on that list that I'd be 100% sure that crime/politics wouldn't fuck me.

And I wouldn't choose DC...well, cause it's DC (never been...don't think I will having spent time here!).

Post: #8

(08-27-2015 05:19 PM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  Well, DC is the only place on that list that I'd be 100% sure that crime/politics wouldn't fuck me.

And I wouldn't choose DC...well, cause it's DC

In the USA, in good States, I cannot believe that bribes and crime would be so prevalent, so high...?

For example, with 30 K, can you, and would you, open a bar (as a foreigner) in, I don't know, good 2d tier cities: Tampa, Houston, Albuquerque, Savannah, San Diego...? Or are 30K peanuts in the US, to start a business?

Anyway, in the US or Canada, I'd be concerned about the women and feminism situation : any drunk-rape accusation and they would close a bar, right? Would you open a bar in the US in the current state of affairs?

Post: #9

I'll never discourage you from following your dreams but…

Do you have any experience managing a business, specially a bar? Have you worked in one before? If you don't have experience in business, you're going to regret it.

30k seems not much. Find a business partner willing to work and put capital too. Don't put a friend. You'll end up losing your friendship.

Post: #10

Greek Islands

Post: #11

DO NOT open a bar in a 3rd world country like Thailand unless you really, really know what you are doing. I have an acquaintance who lost money doing it, also heard of many other people who got burned. If you don't believe me, check out expat forums and ask the expats who live there.

Post: #12

(08-27-2015 06:22 PM)Brodiaga Wrote:  DO NOT open a bar in a 3rd world country like Thailand unless you really, really know what you are doing. I have an acquaintance who lost money doing it, also heard of many other people who got burned. If you don't believe me, check out expat forums and ask the expats who live there.

Second. All the Western guys I know who have opened bars in the Philippines, Thailand, or Japan were married to local girls. The girls helped make sure things were cool with the local wiseguys, the local government authorities (including the police), etc

Also, realize, that because opening a bar has a low barrier for entry, i.e. no special skills are required, only a lump of money you can get from a loan shark, every viable place to open a bar already has a bar up in operation. Because of that, most bars outside the West only provide their owners with subsistence living wages. Many owners make their living by owning the entire building in which the bar is located and renting out the apartments upstairs.

Post: #13

There's a great hostel bar in Hanoi called Hanoi Rocks Hostel which is pretty much as you describe. They have a main bar, a club, a lounge bar, and a floor of dorms, and it's all executed perfectly.

The only catch was they seemed to be harassed constantly by the police while I was there, apparently due to some sort of government inspection of the city that time. The police would come around at least once per night, and the bar had to close early at about 11pm.

So anyway even if you paid a tonne of protection to get rid of the police, you'd still have the problem of competition with the other established hostel bars.

Also in any case, you'd have a really hard time in northern Vietnam as an American (?), whatever you do try set up shop in a country that your country hasn't lost a war to. Are you planning to invest the time into learning the local language of where you build it?

Saigon could be do-able, but once again it looked pretty saturated. Da Nang might be possible, and could be near a beach.

Bali also seemed super saturated, and the other places I don't know enough about. Good luck

Post: #14

(08-27-2015 04:23 PM)Going strong Wrote:  I am thinking of opening, beginning of 2016, a bar/pub abroad. Or a hostel combined with bar. Well, could you give me advice on that? Not that much about the technical constraints (even though legal details do interest me), amount of working-hours involved... but more like, where would you do it, in which city, and why there?

It's feasible if you know how to run one. It's basically the easiest way, in terms of visas, to settle in another country (depending on if you consider marriage 'easy'). Governments are generally favourable to foreign capital inflows, as they get to loot a percentage from it. For instance, in Japan I think the capital threshold is about $50K, so if you can buy or setup a bar or cafe or whatever worth more than that, you're set. The only issue then is the bar paying for itself, which is where the 'knowing how to run one' (inc. marketing and theming it right) comes in.

I disagree with Menace - I've met many people who've done exactly this, and some of them had done exceedingly well (i.e. they caught an wave). Something like this would be my go-to for attempting to move permanently to another country if I had a free chunk of capital to spare.

As for city, don't know. Probably some sunny place in Asia that's completely off the map, peaceful, pleasurable and scenic, and no-ones ever heard of.

(08-27-2015 04:23 PM)Going strong Wrote:  Vietnam (Saigon, or a coastal city)
The Philippines (God, let it not be Manila, I dislike pollution)

If you dislike pollution, you'll hate Saigon. Very much so. You know you're breathing in some seriously thick nasty shit, but it's not until visiting a coastal area that you really appreciate just how pleasurable fresh air is. I think Thailand would be OK, but foreign ownership laws are quite restrictive.

Post: #15

(08-27-2015 06:17 PM)optimus Wrote:  I'll never discourage you from following your dreams but…

Do you have any experience managing a business, specially a bar? Have you worked in one before? If you don't have experience in business, you're going to regret it.

30k seems not much. Find a business partner willing to work and put capital too. Don't put a friend. You'll end up losing your friendship.

I have experience in the daily management of a small (non-internet based) business, yes. Running a bar, anyway, cannot be rocket-science... I don't really understand why RVFers here (and my own friends "in real life" actually) always say "running a bar or a restaurant is incredibly hard"??... I mean, come on: buying and selling alcohol or fresh or cooked products, keeping a lobby clean, keeping an eye on a couple of employees, it is not landing someone on the moon?... I'm pretty sure any energetic, serious man (red-pillers are!) can do it.

(08-27-2015 06:20 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  Greek Islands

Good idea, thanks. Still lots of tourists in those Greek Islands, but operational costs are down due to the local crisis, employees would come cheap... But, I wouldn't do it in the islands that are currently overrun by the migrants (like... the island of Lesbos http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/ju...d-migrants )...

(08-27-2015 06:22 PM)Brodiaga Wrote:  DO NOT open a bar in a 3rd world country like Thailand unless you really, really know what you are doing. I have an acquaintance who lost money doing it, also heard of many other people who got burned. If you don't believe me, check out expat forums and ask the expats who live there.

Yes, unfortunately Thailand would require a local partner with majority share... out of the question. But what about neighboring Cambodia? Or even, Singapore, why not (ok, 40K in Singapore probably are nothing?)?

(08-27-2015 06:38 PM)C-Note Wrote:  

(08-27-2015 06:22 PM)Brodiaga Wrote:  DO NOT open a bar in a 3rd world country like Thailand unless you really, really know what you are doing. I have an acquaintance who lost money doing it, also heard of many other people who got burned. If you don't believe me, check out expat forums and ask the expats who live there.

Second. All the Western guys I know who have opened bars in the Philippines, Thailand, or Japan were married to local girls. The girls helped make sure things were cool with the local wiseguys, the local government authorities (including the police), etc

Also, realize, that because opening a bar has a low barrier for entry, i.e. no special skills are required, only a lump of money you can get from a loan shark, every viable place to open a bar already has a bar up in operation. Because of that, most bars outside the West only provide their owners with subsistence living wages. Many owners make their living by owning the entire building in which the bar is located and renting out the apartments upstairs.

"every viable place to open a bar already has a bar up in operation": yes, in many touristy places, I am aware of that: if a location is good, sadly it has been taken already... but, global population is on the rise, resorts and cities are expanding... one needs to find the right spot in the right town... For example, I received very interesting PMs from a RVFer, about a neighborhood in a Baltic city, with 20K people, and just one bar in it... that is the kind of places I am looking for, it exists

(08-28-2015 03:08 AM)yellowfever Wrote:  There's a great hostel bar in Hanoi called Hanoi Rocks Hostel which is pretty much as you describe. They have a main bar, a club, a lounge bar, and a floor of dorms, and it's all executed perfectly.

The only catch was they seemed to be harassed constantly by the police while I was there, apparently due to some sort of government inspection of the city that time. The police would come around at least once per night, and the bar had to close early at about 11pm.

So anyway even if you paid a tonne of protection to get rid of the police, you'd still have the problem of competition with the other established hostel bars.

Also in any case, you'd have a really hard time in northern Vietnam as an American (?), whatever you do try set up shop in a country that your country hasn't lost a war to. Are you planning to invest the time into learning the local language of where you build it?

Saigon could be do-able, but once again it looked pretty saturated. Da Nang might be possible, and could be near a beach.

Bali also seemed super saturated, and the other places I don't know enough about. Good luck

Yes, Da Nang is on my radar, thanks to this forum and a poster called Papi rico (Sweet pea also, I think)

By the way, I am French, so to Vietnam we also lost a war... but, I gather there is not the same kind of hard-feeling, probably because apart from the Dien Bien Phu strategic and human catastrophe, there was no large-scale killing involved...

And yes I would learn the language, but obviously couldn't get near fluent before like, I dunno, year and a half?... it is a problem, sure. I'd need local helpers... but, labor is cheap there, an interpreter-lawyer cannot cost that much to hire...?

(08-28-2015 04:36 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

(08-27-2015 04:23 PM)Going strong Wrote:  I am thinking of opening, beginning of 2016, a bar/pub abroad. Or a hostel combined with bar. Well, could you give me advice on that? Not that much about the technical constraints (even though legal details do interest me), amount of working-hours involved... but more like, where would you do it, in which city, and why there?

It's feasible if you know how to run one. It's basically the easiest way, in terms of visas, to settle in another country (depending on if you consider marriage 'easy'). Governments are generally favourable to foreign capital inflows, as they get to loot a percentage from it. For instance, in Japan I think the capital threshold is about $50K, so if you can buy or setup a bar or cafe or whatever worth more than that, you're set. The only issue then is the bar paying for itself, which is where the 'knowing how to run one' (inc. marketing and theming it right) comes in.

I disagree with Menace - I've met many people who've done exactly this, and some of them had done exceedingly well (i.e. they caught an wave). Something like this would be my go-to for attempting to move permanently to another country if I had a free chunk of capital to spare.

As for city, don't know. Probably some sunny place in Asia that's completely off the map, peaceful, pleasurable and scenic, and no-ones ever heard of.

(08-27-2015 04:23 PM)Going strong Wrote:  Vietnam (Saigon, or a coastal city)
The Philippines (God, let it not be Manila, I dislike pollution)

If you dislike pollution, you'll hate Saigon. Very much so. You know you're breathing in some seriously thick nasty shit, but it's not until visiting a coastal area that you really appreciate just how pleasurable fresh air is. I think Thailand would be OK, but foreign ownership laws are quite restrictive.

Thanks to you, first-World Japan has just popped on my radar... 50k is doable, and if it ensures a permanent residency visa, it might be worth it. (Would I loose the visa if I had to close the bar at some point?)...

And yes, I also know French people who opened a bar in second-tier Colombia and are making nice money out of it, and got residency visas in the process quite easily... So, some people are successful at it, I wonder what the percentages would be...
(And let's not forget China! there has to be golden opportunities there in tourism, from what i am told)

Post: #16

(08-28-2015 05:28 AM)Going strong Wrote:  Thanks to you, first-World Japan has just popped on my radar... 50k is doable, and if it ensures a permanent residency visa, it might be worth it. (Would I loose the visa if I had to close the bar at some point?)...

I would reach out to TokyoJoe regarding Japan, he has lived there for many years and can probably give you more intel.

Post: #17

Have you considered big party cities in second tier countries or second tier countries in general? Ibiza, Spain, Ravenna, Italy, Greek Islands(as someone mentioned earlier), somewhere in Poland(the invest in Poland commercials were quite funny), or somewhere in Romania?

Post: #18

(08-28-2015 05:28 AM)Going strong Wrote:  Thanks to you, first-World Japan has just popped on my radar... 50k is doable, and if it ensures a permanent residency visa, it might be worth it. (Would I loose the visa if I had to close the bar at some point?)...

It's a pretty common system, many countries have it. As long as you have money there is always a way. It's not a permanent residency visa (perhaps I was unclear), just a 1 year Business Manager visa, which I assume gets rolled over so long as you have the business. There's other longer-term visas after that (if you can be declared 'Highly Skilled'), but generally guys who plan to stay forever get a local wife (and even if you get divorced, you keep the permanent residency).
Some countries do also have an automatic permanent residence investment visa too, but as an example: in the case of Korea it's $5M .

(08-28-2015 05:28 AM)Going strong Wrote:  I don't really understand why RVFers here (and my own friends "in real life" actually) always say "running a bar or a restaurant is incredibly hard"?

My understanding from talking to them is "you have to do a million different things all by yourself". I'd say the biggest issue is the marketing aspect. We've all seen bars that are packed and bars that are empty in the same town. It's not like a salary.

Post: #19

(08-28-2015 07:28 AM)hwuzhere Wrote:  Have you considered big party cities in second tier countries or second tier countries in general? Ibiza, Spain, Ravenna, Italy, Greek Islands(as someone mentioned earlier), somewhere in Poland(the invest in Poland commercials were quite funny), or somewhere in Romania?

Costs involved in operating any business in Western Europe have me worried, monsieur le Comte...

For example, the price of an official, State-approved alcohol-license in France, is huge. Has to be more or less the same in Italy, Spain... I mean, if my memory serves me right, in France, before even actually opening a bar, I would have to fork out, maybe 50K (80K?) - for just the official authorizations, in Paris (alcohol license: "licence 4" and commercial license: "pas de porte")...

As to Poland-Romania, yes, it is an idea to consider... but Poland can be depressing, in winter, and well I can't see the country becoming a huge touristic destination... 2d tier Romania looks more promising yes (dynamic cities getting wealthier and wealthier, down there).

Post: #20

OP, which areas of the world have you personally travelled to?

Post: #21

Ios, Tallinn man!

Post: #22

(08-28-2015 07:54 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  I'd say the biggest issue is the marketing aspect. We've all seen bars that are packed and bars that are empty in the same town. It's not like a salary.

The marketing aspect will be "facilitated" if the location itself is good (lots of passers-by coming from work or strolling on a week-end), and the place has a nice front window and a welcoming inside... but I am aware that, nowadays, I would need to be present on the social media too, to promote the bar...

Also, in "2-tier countries", I cannot understand how bar owners often can't get beautiful waitresses inside! I mean, all the cute jobless students there are in the 2d world...! In my bar, I would put no less than HB7s at work, to attract customers... How come some bar owners in, I don't know, say Ukraine or Cambodia, do not hire beautiful waitresses? there are beautiful unemployed chicks aplenty in "2-tier countries"!
(Btw, I would not bed them, thanks, I don't want drama with employees...)

Post: #23

(08-28-2015 08:06 AM)Suits Wrote:  OP, which areas of the world have you personally travelled to?

SEA (Phils Thailand Cambodia Malaysia), Latin America (Colombia Mexico Chile etc), EE (Ukraine Russia - Baltics -Romania) : the classic "poosy paradises" and fun destinations.

(I do have connections in China, also, through friends... that is why the Hainan island made my list. Or even Beijing, in spite of pollution. I know someone who opened one small "French" restaurant in Beijing, 1o years ago, and has now 3 restaus)

Post: #24

(08-28-2015 07:59 AM)Going strong Wrote:  

(08-28-2015 07:28 AM)hwuzhere Wrote:  Have you considered big party cities in second tier countries or second tier countries in general? Ibiza, Spain, Ravenna, Italy, Greek Islands(as someone mentioned earlier), somewhere in Poland(the invest in Poland commercials were quite funny), or somewhere in Romania?

Costs involved in operating any business in Western Europe have me worried, monsieur le Comte...

Reconnaissance de mon écriture est très appréciée. Merci mon amie.

Quote:For example, the price of an official, State-approved alcohol-license in France, is huge. Has to be more or less the same in Italy, Spain... I mean, if my memory serves me right, in France, before even actually opening a bar, I would have to fork out, maybe 50K (80K?) - for just the official authorizations, in Paris (alcohol license: "licence 4" and commercial license: "pas de porte")...

Sounds much like it is in the States(with a slight bit more hassle) I would avoid something similar here unless it's truly in a small town, but even if it is a small town it wouldn't be any pussy paradise.

Quote:As to Poland-Romania, yes, it is an idea to consider... but Poland can be depressing, in winter, and well I can't see the country becoming a huge touristic destination... 2d tier Romania looks more promising yes (dynamic cities getting wealthier and wealthier, down there).

I've had good experiences with Romanian women in the States. This would be my recommendation for say a college town or mid-sized city in Romania coupled with a bit of appreciation from the locals for investing in the country.

All the best mate. I say if you can pull it off go for it. Nothing in life is without risks, and this might be worth something to take a risk for. C'est la vie.

Post: #25

How are you going to get a liquor license? It'll be a hell of a lot more then 30-40k that's for sure. And even if you're able to rent one, it's going to cost you 2-3k a month.