Post: #1

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #2

The last thing she said was "deaths on either side of the badge appear to be on the rise" however no where in the clip is it mentioned that there has been an increase in these shootings.

Post: #3

Yep, there was no mention of whether rates were increasing. There was also no mention of the United States population being quite a bit bigger than the UK's. There are a lot of holes here. Good ole' mainstream media.

To be clear, I did not post this video to make any specific point but rather to put it out for discussion. The statistics need more research before drawing big conclusions, but the assertion is cause for interest.

On a completely unrelated note, aSimpNamedBrokeback? That is a very interesting choice of handle, my friend...

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #4

(04-11-2015 10:08 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  On a completely unrelated note, aSimpNamedBrokeback? That is a very interesting choice of handle, my friend...

Its sort of a Boondocks reference.


On a somewhat related note. Using RT numbers "to put things into perspective", in 1919 the British massacred 379 unarmed Indians in 10mins. Thats more people in killed 10mins than the whole UK police killed in the 20th century.

Post: #5

I'd heard that US police had killed more in March than the British police had since 1990, not the whole 20th century.

Your point about the US having a larger population does still not make it proportional. I might be wrong, but aren't there around 350 million Americans? That's about 6 times as much as Britain, but the rate of police killings is much greater than 6.

Post: #6

^ I never said that it did. I was simply pointing out that, yes, Brokeback is correct that this newstory is not dealing with the facts 100% honestly.

That isn't to say their comparision holds no water, but they are pumping it up to the maximum degree, as the mainstream media likes to do, and should have at least acknowledged the population difference and stated the facts about increase. The apples to apples comparison would have sufficed, but they are laying it on as thick as possible, and that in its own right is dishonest.

It's really an aside and besides the point but worth considering regardless. Journalism should be held to a particular standard, which of course it is not, and when things like that are left out it often begs the question of what else is being left out.

These are just things to consider, though - America's po-po and overall population clearly has a violence problem.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #7

The two countries are too different to compare.

Its why it makes me laugh when social justice crowds try to compare the U.K police to the U.S police as some sort of joint 'oppression'.

Britain has had a lock down on firearms and never had a gun culture so to speak. Gun crime rates went up high in the inner cities from the 80s onwards, especially in the black communities but it has been stifled by laws, various operations, different strategies and in general just adapting to the situation.

many districts in U.S cities have up to several murders each week, let alone the shootings that don't end up killing people. In the U.K that would be a very bad week for a whole city let alone just one area.

Not taking away responsibility from officers involved in the shootings but it comes to no surprise. That when you begin to erode away traditional supports in society, you will then have to fill those roles up with the state. May sound like pseudo sociology 101 speaking here but in economics and physics you have this general law of compensation. A lot like energy, it doesn't simply disappear, it just transfers form and shape into something else.

By removing fathers from the household, the general family structure. Taking away jobs and trades, in general just the sense of responsibility or having any form of social contract. You are creating a monster there, and although you can subside the hell out of it with government/corporate money, you are simply delaying the reaping of what is being sowed.

This is also an issue I have with immigration. In general its not the immigrants themselves, more or less its because you are outsourcing a pivotal function of the society to people on the outside. Would you outsource your kid's education and exam tests, no because thats a short cut which will lead to further problems down the line.

Thus, no surprise that a police state is essentially being created. There is no discipline or authority in these communities being organically created, so there is a demand for something to supply this from the outside.

It is similar to the U.K in some ways,

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/fir...67977.html

This sort of stuff happens literally all the time.

Post: #8

Learning about the U.S. from RT is like learning about men's rights from Jezebel. Baffles me how anyone could take an "alternative viewpoint" from a Kremlin-funded media outlet any more seriously than an episode of Ancient Aliens.

RT isn't part of a corporate umbrella like CNN or Fox (where only a strong suspicion of corruption exists), it's legitimate state-funded propaganda from a country diametrically opposed to U.S. interests.

Post: #9

I don't even know who RT is.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #10

(04-11-2015 12:33 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  I don't even know who RT is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_%28TV_network%29

Quote:RT (founded as "Russia Today") is a Russian state-funded television network which runs cable and satellite television channels, as well as Internet content directed to audiences outside the Russian Federation. RT International, which is based in Moscow, presents around-the-clock news bulletins, documentaries, talk shows, and debates, as well as sports news and cultural programs about Russia. RT operates as a multilingual service with channels in three languages; the original English language channel was launched in 2005.

RT has been called a propaganda outlet for the Russian government and its foreign policy by former Russian officials, and by news reporters, including former RT reporters. It has also been accused of spreading disinformation.

Post: #11

And of course people here are defending the U.S. go figure.

Post: #12

(04-11-2015 12:33 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  I don't even know who RT is.

http://rt.com/on-air/

RT en Espanol also streams live on youtube, (lets see if this works)




its currently broadcasting a live feed of the Cumbre de las Americas, which is pretty cool, but at times the english version is so far left its almost like a parody.

Post: #13

1) I wonder who is surprised by this
2) It never ceases to amaze me how people will torture logic to defend it.

China has 1 billion plus people, and maybe 1.6 million people in jail
The US has 350Mill? It has 2.3 million people in jail.

Well that's because the US is not nearly as free as China is, right?

I'll watch you dudes twist in the wind.

WIA

Post: #14

https://www.odmp.org/search/year
You can find the stats for police deaths here

Im sure... no matter how you crunch the numbers..
If you use the population of the US and the UK as a ratio for police related deaths
The US still shoots way more people that anywhere else..


There really isnt much to defend when it comes to shootings and incarceration rates

Post: #15

(04-11-2015 12:47 PM)Ghaleon Wrote:  And of course people here are defending the U.S. go figure.

Really? I must have missed that...

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #16

(04-11-2015 01:10 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  1) I wonder who is surprised by this
2) It never ceases to amaze me how people will torture logic to defend it.

China has 1 billion plus people, and maybe 1.6 million people in jail
The US has 350Mill? It has 2.3 million people in jail.

Well that's because the US is not nearly as free as China is, right?

I'll watch you dudes twist in the wind.

WIA

(04-11-2015 01:14 PM)Sourcecode Wrote:  https://www.odmp.org/search/year
You can find the stats for police deaths here

Im sure... no matter how you crunch the numbers..
If you use the population of the US and the UK as a ratio for police related deaths
The US still shoots way more people that anywhere else..


There really isnt much to defend when it comes to shootings and incarceration rates

Where is all this talk of defense coming from?

Pointing out that a news slant you agree with is making logical fallacies isn't the same as disagreeing with them. It's called intellectual honesty and playing Devil's advocate.

Nearly every person who pointed out the lousy reporting also said that the reporting was talking about a legitimate problem. I personally have yet to state my opinion. Yet all you guys see is disagreement where it doesn't exist.

So who is twisting in the wind?

If either of you honestly believe I'm in support of American police, or that anything I've said here implies it, than you are the ones suffering from problems with logic and an irrational urge to defend a particular view in spite of them.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #17

Gun control anyone?

Post: #18

^ No thanks.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #19

(04-11-2015 01:25 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

(04-11-2015 01:10 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  1) I wonder who is surprised by this
2) It never ceases to amaze me how people will torture logic to defend it.

China has 1 billion plus people, and maybe 1.6 million people in jail
The US has 350Mill? It has 2.3 million people in jail.

Well that's because the US is not nearly as free as China is, right?

I'll watch you dudes twist in the wind.

WIA

(04-11-2015 01:14 PM)Sourcecode Wrote:  https://www.odmp.org/search/year
You can find the stats for police deaths here

Im sure... no matter how you crunch the numbers..
If you use the population of the US and the UK as a ratio for police related deaths
The US still shoots way more people that anywhere else..


There really isnt much to defend when it comes to shootings and incarceration rates

Where is all this talk of defense coming from?

Pointing out that a news slant you agree with is making logical fallacies isn't the same as disagreeing with them. It's called intellectual honesty and playing Devil's advocate.

Nearly every person who pointed out the lousy reporting also said that the reporting was talking about a legitimate problem. I personally have yet to state my opinion. Yet all you guys see is disagreement where it doesn't exist.

So who is twisting in the wind?

If either of you honestly believe I'm in support of American police, or that anything I've said here implies it, than you are the ones suffering from problems with logic and an irrational urge to defend a particular view in spite of them.

....No one said you were
no one called you out..
just throwing a link that people can look at

Post: #20

^ My bad.

I must be up past my bedtime.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #21

(04-11-2015 01:25 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  Gun control anyone?

I said it in the Walter Scott thread. They will come after the guns. They will say that the trend of American police killing people is not because of a general government/executive overreach problem, but because of the threat that civilians might be carrying guns and that the police can not take any chances.

They will say that since the British public does not have guns, the British police do not carry guns either - and therefore the British police do not kill anyone.

Post: #22

I'm glad we have such tight gun control over here. Call me paranoid, but if I was in America and anyone with the 'crazy look' walked towards me, I'd be freaking out.

Over here, you can just push them away.

You might call the right to arms a freedom, but I don't see it as that. You have more control over your own life if there is not the constant threat of firearms around.

Post: #23

(04-11-2015 02:48 PM)britchard Wrote:  I'm glad we have such tight gun control over here. Call me paranoid, but if I was in America and anyone with the 'crazy look' walked towards me, I'd be freaking out.

Someone has been watching too much TV.

America doesn't have a problem with "crazy lookers". It has a problem within the Black and Hispanic drug subculture that manifests itself with gun violence. Even if the US government confiscated all guns tomorrow there would still be a huge problem with murders and violence. The UK, even with all it's immigration, is still nowhere as ethnically and culturally diverse as the US. This is the problem with multiculturalism. Bringing groups of unrelated people with different approaches to handling human affairs together to live amongst each other is asking for trouble.

(04-11-2015 02:48 PM)britchard Wrote:  Over here, you can just push them away.

From what I saw in the London riots of 2011 was a bunch of impotent cops and helpless civilians standing around watching hooligans burn their neighborhoods. I read an article from that time where Turkish business owners were beating those dipshits with baseball bats. Of course the British press treated it like it was unnatural to defend one's property.

(04-11-2015 02:48 PM)britchard Wrote:  You might call the right to arms a freedom, but I don't see it as that. You have more control over your own life if there is not the constant threat of firearms around.

Firearms in and of themselves do not possess a person to commit wrongs. No more than people carrying pocket knives or pepper spray influence them to harm others. A huge amount of crimes are prevented by armed people deterring or shooting their attacker. The number of shootings does not concern me. The number of justified shootings does.

Post: #24

(04-11-2015 03:21 PM)Chevy Woonsocket Wrote:  Bringing groups of unrelated people with different approaches to handling human affairs together to live amongst each other is asking for trouble.

This where the thread falls off a cliff and people start getting banned. Blaming inner city gun violence on multiculturalism is naive and lazy, plus that argument hits a wall when you look at places like Central America.

Post: #25

(04-11-2015 03:29 PM)aSimpNamedBrokeback Wrote:  

(04-11-2015 03:21 PM)Chevy Woonsocket Wrote:  Bringing groups of unrelated people with different approaches to handling human affairs together to live amongst each other is asking for trouble.

This where the thread falls off a cliff and people start getting banned. Blaming inner city violence gun on multiculturalism is naive and lazy, plus that argument hits a wall when you look at places like Central America.

Naive and lazy, huh?

Please show me one instance in human history where ethnically and culturally diametrical peoples were able to live amongst each other peaceably without massive governmental pressure to do so.

Last I looked, places like Honduras are >90% mestizo. As recently as 1960, the US was >90% white. Do you honestly think importing one million Somalis into Honduras won't cause a huge societal and economic upheaval?

Anyways, the Drug War and the enforced breakdown in traditional families has a lot to do with it as well. I didn't mean to say multiculturalism was the sole cause. I just think it's the biggest.