Post: #1

The issue of self-determination/secession is relevant in many areas of the modern world. We see right now in Ukraine part of the country trying to become independent from Ukraine, after Crimea has already done as much. In the last few years we have seen the creation of new countries such as Kosovo, East Timor and South Sudan, based on conflicts within a country.

In reference to the conflict in Ukraine, Putin has been very explicit that the West/NATO has explicitly backed the self-determination of people in Kosovo who did not want to remain in the Serbian state, and intervened militarily to ensure that right. Putin draws the parallel to what is happening in Ukraine, saying the situations are completely comparable, a group of people no longer wants to be a part of a country, and is fighting for that right.

The U.N. International Covenant on Civil and Political rights lists the right to self-determination as its very first enumerated right, stating that:

"All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development."
http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cpr.html

Yet this is not the case in many places. Spain has the Basque and Catalan regions which seem like perfect candidates for independence. Catalonia in 2014 had a non-binding vote in which 80% of people voted for independence, yet the U.N. is not pressing forward trying to force Spain to give Catalonians independence. The Catalonian argument is one part cultural, one part economic, which together make a pretty convincing case from the Catalonian perspective, but comparing Catalans to other groups who are suffering far more, most people in the world likely see little reason to worry about the Catalans

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_sel...ndum,_2014

Large states often do not want secession to happen for economic regions. Catalonia has the best economy within Spain, so to lose Catalonia would be a large hit to the Spanish economy overall. Eastern Ukraine has a lot of manufacturing, and so Kiev would not like to lose that.

I wonder what everyone's thoughts on self-determination and secession in general are. Should a group like the Catalans be allowed independence because of cultural/economic reasons when they are not really suffering in the grand scheme of things? The case of Eastern Ukraine seems more clear, since the central government there is actually attacking them militarily, thus providing the people with a very legitimate reason to want "out" of Ukraine.

It is hard to really have a consistent litmus test by which any and all future cases can be judged. For instance, should a simple majority vote be enough for a new state to be formed, or should there be some higher threshold of support? Should it only be in cases where grave human-rights violations have occurred, or should it be for any reason at all so long as the group of people in question support it?

Post: #2

Awesome thread. Secession on a small level may be one of the only ways to break the public's horrible perception that a state is a necessary institution. But it would have to be on a very small and non-threatening level. Some insignificant municipality. And the people involved would have to be very chill about it and hold frame. Make offers to pay restitution to whatever local government that might make a stink. Leave the obvious public buildings alone. That kind of thing. Hoppe has proposed a few ideas in some of his Mises lectures. As a western Canadian who spent a few years living in Montreal, I would love to see Quebec separate, but it will never happen. There is far too much politically at stake for both the pro-Nationalist AND the separatist leaders when there is some form of conflict.

I was talking to some guys last week and one of them mentioned that Honduras will be experimenting with some free cities. That could also be an interesting social experiment to check out.

More on point, a majority vote should always be viewed with the highest suspicion, outside of boards of directors and private clubs. If the vote says "we can now secede" but around 49% of the inhabitants don't want to, this is a recipe for disaster. Better for all those in favor to figure out a way to directly buy land and title and opt out of the surrounding state, but still honor as many prior easements as possible in order to foster good relations with their neighbors.

Post: #3

Established states don't want to lose a region for the obvious reasons of losing face and appearing weak to outsiders. In places like East Asia noone wants to give up claims to a region because they have so many competing claims against each other that dropping one would signal they might drop the others. Economically-struggling countries don't want to lose rich regions for the obvious problems they'll face in improving their finances. Some areas are just so strategic that losing them would have a military or political impact.

What does that mean for the questions asked about secession? You can argue both ways whether regions, towns, villages or individual households should be free to claim independence as they see fit. But in this world, saying it isn't so important anymore. If you want to be independent or secede, you'll have to be either strong enough to resist the original state which might launch a war against you, or you have to be so rich and/or important that larger powers will back you out of a sense of their own interests.

As we can see in the Ukraine and Novorossiya, the Ukraine isn't strong enough to get the territory back, and Novorossiya has the tacit backing of Russia to give them a foothold. The Scottish situation and Quebeces examples are almost unique, in that well-established and stable countries such as the UK and Canada have seen votes on independence, almost exclusively because their own rhetoric of democracy and the will of the people ended up coming home to roost in their own backyards. There are several reasons you can put forward for why they allowed it to go ahead, but countries like the USA, China, Russia, have zero interest in allowing those sorts of situations to occur in their own backyards.