Post: #1

Hello. I was hoping for assistance with a quandary.

I like to argue, but I find myself have less and less patience with it. And it dawned on me that I never really learned how to argue, I picked up the basic rules through osmosis and not much else.
Part of it is debating politically incorrect ideas with people (after Hebdo) and it is just excruciating, but nothing can be done to fix that.

So I was hoping for knowledge of any resources or tactics that can assist with regaining my edge and love for the craft.

Thank you for reading.

Post: #2

http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html

Post: #3

Check out this link as well:

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

Post: #4

You could take a look at one of the classic Plato texts called "Euthyphro." In this dialogue Socrates challenges Euthyphro about religion, theology, and ethics, among other topics. It's a classic portrayal of Socratic method style arguments and it's a mainstay in many introductory philosophy courses.

You can download it for free here: Euthyphro

I think how to become better at argumentation can come from a few ways:

1) Reading/watching debates, whether academic or more literature or philosophical mediums.
2) Read arguments from academic or scholarly mediums and attempt to unpack, break down the main components, and refute these components.

You have to understand that every argument is composed of components. Some may be more complex than others, and the lines of logic connecting the components may be presented in different ways; but all arguments basically boil down to premises and conclusions. Some premises may be rooted in extremely sound and true facts, while other premises may be faulty or not logically connect to the conclusion.

The point of argument is to refute certain premises and therefore make the whole argument come crashing down because it destroys the conclusion someone is trying to portray.

One easy way to quickly amp up your argument skills is to become aware of logical fallacies:

Fallacies

After becoming familiar with these you will see them appear everywhere; on tv, in articles, when people are talking, whatever. By knowing that they are fallacious you can easily attack these premises or logical connections.

A lot of it is also just practice. I find I can do well in argumentation on paper and in written text, but I am not incredibly skilled verbally (well, compared to higher level argumentative people). This is because I actually don't particularly enjoy arguing or conducting intellectual discussions for the most part and therefore don't practice. But I have friends who do and can do better than me even though they may not even know more about a certain subject that we may be discussing.

Post: #5

Please buy a copy.

And respect my copyright.

:-)

Post: #6

If you have specific questions leave a comment at my blog. Otherwise, I've discussed a few techniques here: http://alphaisassumed.wordpress.com/category/rhetoric/

Post: #7

(01-13-2015 12:32 AM)Americas Wrote:  You could take a look at one of the classic Plato texts called "Euthyphro." In this dialogue Socrates challenges Euthyphro about religion, theology, and ethics, among other topics. It's a classic portrayal of Socratic method style arguments and it's a mainstay in many introductory philosophy courses.

You can download it for free here: Euthyphro

I think how to become better at argumentation can come from a few ways:

1) Reading/watching debates, whether academic or more literature or philosophical mediums.
2) Read arguments from academic or scholarly mediums and attempt to unpack, break down the main components, and refute these components.

You have to understand that every argument is composed of components. Some may be more complex than others, and the lines of logic connecting the components may be presented in different ways; but all arguments basically boil down to premises and conclusions. Some premises may be rooted in extremely sound and true facts, while other premises may be faulty or not logically connect to the conclusion.

The point of argument is to refute certain premises and therefore make the whole argument come crashing down because it destroys the conclusion someone is trying to portray.

One easy way to quickly amp up your argument skills is to become aware of logical fallacies:

Fallacies

After becoming familiar with these you will see them appear everywhere; on tv, in articles, when people are talking, whatever. By knowing that they are fallacious you can easily attack these premises or logical connections.

A lot of it is also just practice. I find I can do well in argumentation on paper and in written text, but I am not incredibly skilled verbally (well, compared to higher level argumentative people). This is because I actually don't particularly enjoy arguing or conducting intellectual discussions for the most part and therefore don't practice. But I have friends who do and can do better than me even though they may not even know more about a certain subject that we may be discussing.

Obviously what you say is correct in the more formal sense, but a comprehensive understanding of logical fallacies isn't going to do much good against a feminist getting in your face screaming at you. Yes, learn dialectical truths (what this post describes).

However, in every argument there are countless intangibles keeping a rational person from getting his point across: idiots who interrupt, loud music, somebody changing the topic, etc. Thus, although it's important to learn Truth, it's equally important to learn how to get it across to somebody. Such is the art of rhetoric.

Sometimes it's best to be nice and understanding, sometimes loud and brash. Are you trying to persuade the person you're arguing against or trying to influence an audience? When you get good at it it's actually fun

Some of the rules I follow: Always frame the issues the way you want them framed. Negate BS diversionary tactics simply by calling attention to them (if somebody keeps interrupting, ask if they'd prefer to give a lecture). Never let somebody dodge a valid point you've made: make them either refute it, accept it, or call into question its relevance. Show you have the ability to be a total dick but aren't being one because you're willing to pretend you respect them for a few minutes. Know when to shut up so as to actually know what your opponent thinks (or let them hang themselves with their own logic). Also know when to concede points and even seem sympathetic or understanding.

Also know what type of person you're arguing against. Some are true believers and won't be convinced whatever you say. The only reasons to argue with these folks are to persuade others listening in or practice. When you get these people to foam at the mouths, you know you're getting good.

On the other hand, some people can be convinced. When you hear one of these say things like "I've never thought of it that way before," you also know you're getting good.

Post: #8

You may want to consider reading Thank You for Arguing by Jay Heinrichs. It is a good introduction to the art of persuasion.

http://www.amazon.com/Thank-You-Arguing-...0307341445

Post: #9

I advise you read the chapter about arguing in the 48 laws of power. It states that one can not win by arguing, but with action instead.

Post: #10

You also shouldn't forget that your oppnents and audience will still be fellow humans, and they will not adhere to such rigorous logic. While studying logical fallacies and he whole clinical approach to arguing is fine as basics, never ever turn full autist and forget that you're arguing with and for humans. What that means is that you WILL have to actually employ those same fallacies at times, appeals to emotion etc. to properly win some arguments.

That's basically the most important lesson: don't forget the human nature. The best salesmen are not IT nerds and engineers who can rattle down statistics and data but the smooth talking buddy buddy guys who manage to build rapport, comfort, a connection with the intended target. I mean it's one of the core tenets of gaming, don't try to logic a woman, it won't work.

Post: #11

Here is my personal advice.

Don't try and win the argument.

What do I mean by that?

Well - you have to totally remove your ego from the debate. Be prepared to concede ground or admit you are wrong.

99% of people have no intention of doing this once they get into an argument.

If you approach an argument as an honest attempt at getting nearer to the truth, two things happen.

First - because you are playing for lower stakes than your opponent (since your ego was placed to one side), you will be a lot more relaxed and a lot more rational. It will never occur to you to resort to lame ad hominem arguments, appeals to authority or the building of straw men. Since they are not the tools an honest seeker of truth would use.

Secondly - you may actually lose the argument. Hey - congratulations! You just learned something new, and your thinking about the world has improved. The most important thing you can learn is something that corrects a mistake you never knew you were making in your thinking.

I remember when this realisation hit me as a teenager. I used to troll people by getting into arguments - just so I could let them beat me. The look on their faces as I admitted I was an idiot, completely wrong and very grateful for being set straight was delightful.

They won the battle - but they went away with the feeling that I had won the war. lol

But seriously - it was like forcing yourself to take cold showers. After a few days - you had developed the strength to no longer care about the pain.

Thirdly - if you make an honest attempt to get to the truth of the matter - then truth itself will decide who the winner is. No special techniques are really needed.

I will end by talking about Karl Popper.



Bryan Magee was a friend of Karl Popper and wrote a book on his work. One thing he said that most impressed him about Popper was his style of argumentation.

Popper would start an argument by reworking his opponent's argument so that it was at its most sound, convincing and rational.

He would then proceed to attack the argument at its strongest part. Since he knew that once an argument had been demolished at its strongest point - there would be nowhere else for the opponent to go

This is an excellent Jedi mindset to have when putting together an argument. Don't attack them at their place of weakness.

Attack them at their place of strength.

Once that wall of logic is removed - they will have nowhere else to run.

Post: #12

I actually completely forgot about this thread. Thank you all. Bookmarking now

Post: #13

Remember you can't reason someone out of a decision or belief they were never reasoned into to begin with.

A razor sharp, logical mind and practiced debate skills are of little use against an idiot in front of an audience of idiots. The good news is the list of logical fallacies from above usually work pretty well when used against dummies. You might feel bad about using a cheap trick when you know your stance is logically valid, but sometimes its more important to get people to do or think what you tell them through cunning then wasting your time trying to explain the fundamentals of your argument to someone who simply isn't equipped to comprehend.

Post: #14

Check out A Workbook in Arguments: A Complete Course in Critical Thinking. I personally haven't read it but for what it's worth, my roommate bought it to help him prepare for the LSAT and he got a 175.