Post: #26

(01-08-2015 11:03 AM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

(01-08-2015 10:50 AM)Todd LeFondler Wrote:  CattleRustler claims to be a winning player of... Slot machines.

My grandparents used to do what CR talks about. They won quite a bit. They also lost but they seemed to do well enough to continue heading towards to the casino which was great for getting them out of the house.

They had their favorite machines as well.

I don't see much difference from what CR posted to what my grandfather would tell me. It sounds like he played the same way and was going back for years.

I think some of you guys are taking this way more serious than what was intended. No where did I see CR mention this would replace your income. If you like to play slots, try out his sheet.

Your grandfather gambled away most of your inheritance

brb going to the casino with lifesavings. Using this datasheet to make me rich

Post: #27

(01-08-2015 04:43 PM)stevoaus Wrote:  Your grandfather gambled away most of your inheritance

No, he gambled with his hard earned money that he built up over a lifetime of working. He paid cash for most things he needed and deserved to enjoy the fruits of his labor.

Coming from a blue collar family, we rather make our own money than rely on inheritances.

Quote:brb going to the casino with lifesavings. Using this datasheet to make me rich

I don't recall anyone saying you can get rich from this. Please point it out.

Where are your datasheets?

Post: #28

(01-08-2015 04:55 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Quote:brb going to the casino with lifesavings. Using this datasheet to make me rich

I don't recall anyone saying you can get rich from this. Please point it out.

Where are your datasheets?

The implication the OP made is that you can make money this way with consistency by anything but blind luck.

He's then asked by someone to discuss time period and "consistent" winning as well as if he closely tracked his wins/losses. Not unreasonable at all to ask.

Then the OP guessed at a percentage range and got defensive.

I've been heavily involved in the gambling world and played hundreds of thousands of hands of various games. I've also had serious insight from professional gamblers as well as high level casino employees that are family of sorts.

Did I need any of this to realize that this "datasheet" is complete and utter nonsense?

No, I just need a basic probability and statistics math class.

Don't believe me, believe the wizard of odds guy whose site has already been linked:

Quote:The Wizard of Odds is Michael Shackleford, A.S.A., a professional actuary who has made a career of analyzing casino games. He runs the numbers on new games for casinos and game developers and has helped design many of the popular slot machines on the Internet. He is currently an Adjunct Professor of Casino Math at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, a former contributing editor to Casino Player magazine, and the author of the book Gambling 102, recently published by Huntington Press. The Wizard's landmark research into the actual returns of slot machines on the Las Vegas strip garnered international attention in 2002, and he has appeared numerous times on national television as a recognized expert on gambling strategy.

As a side note, there ARE ways to beat the casino. Some may be legal some may be not:

1. Luck! Just because the odds are not in your favor doesn't mean that multiple independent events can't end up in your favor. Again, basic probability/statistics.
2. Major bugs in the software or flaws in the random number generators. These usually get addressed quickly.
3. Complicated strategies that can give you positive expected value. These are essentially bugs that are exploited at such a low level or are so rare they will never get addressed.
4. Physical ways to trick the machines sensors/systems. Very rare.
5. Games that are not slots. Blackjack with a reasonable number of decks (card counting, which is not illegal but will get you escorted off the premises and asked not to return once the casinos catch on). Poker against players whom you can outwit, read, etc...
6. Bonus hustling and such (mentioned only because with online casinos this was a viable strategy years ago, but again you were only making money expecting to lose a small percent playing to satisfy requirements and then making money through the generous bonus offers at the time).

I encourage anyone to read up on probability/statistics if they want to know anything about the reality of gambling. It doesn't make you "feel" good, but it will sure give you the cold hard reality which is what I thought we were about around here.

To simplify, this is like the OP flipping a coin a bunch of times for money and stopping when he "feels" that it's going to land on heads more often and then when he "feels" it'll land on heads less often he starts betting again.

Sure he could win money, but it's not because he has any advantage or it's in any way a smart method of betting. The chance of the coin landing on heads or tails is 50/50. You can't change the probability with your "feelings" just your bet, which may or may not win but that outcome doesn't depend on your choice.

People get real emotional when you point out their complete lack of mathematical understanding when it comes to gambling. I suspect this is because gambling is a largely emotional and unfortunately for some, highly addictive pastime.

Post: #29

I can card count, but about 5yrs ago almost all casinos in australia removed the shoe deck for auto shufflers its fucked. Its because we have so many degenerate gamblers casinos can give you the worst odds and they will still have packed tables.

Post: #30

(01-09-2015 05:25 AM)AneroidOcean Wrote:  The implication the OP made is that you can make money this way with consistency by anything but blind luck.

He's then asked by someone to discuss time period and "consistent" winning as well as if he closely tracked his wins/losses. Not unreasonable at all to ask.

Then the OP guessed at a percentage range and got defensive.

I've been heavily involved in the gambling world and played hundreds of thousands of hands of various games. I've also had serious insight from professional gamblers as well as high level casino employees that are family of sorts.

I guess it depends on what consistent means. Like I said, my grandparents went for years (maybe once a month or once every two months) and they wouldn't have been able to do so if they weren't winning enough.

Now if by consistent you mean winning every time then no.

They always played max bet and always went with 1k or more. These are not rich people so in order to do what they did they must have been winning enough to go back as frequently as they did.

They also had specific machines that they always went too. Sometimes things would change up and the machines wouldn't pay out so they would cut back on going.

Do most people have a strategy for slots? Doubtful.

I do agree money is better spent other ways. If you want to play slots, I would try out his "datasheet" because that is exactly how my grandparents played for years. They wouldn't have done so if it didn't work for them regardless what all your professional gamblers and experience say.

I do agree on the emotional and the feels stuff.

Post: #31

Winning or not i would prefer to spend my free time banging my head against a brick wall than sit at a slot machine for several hours, shits more mind-numbing than watching TV.

Post: #32

(01-09-2015 10:36 AM)nick_ Wrote:  Winning or not i would prefer to spend my free time banging my head against a brick wall than sit at a slot machine for several hours, shits more mind-numbing than watching TV.

Same here, I never understood the fascination of sitting at one of those machines for hours and feeding it coins.

Post: #33

(01-09-2015 10:24 AM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

(01-09-2015 05:25 AM)AneroidOcean Wrote:  The implication the OP made is that you can make money this way with consistency by anything but blind luck.

He's then asked by someone to discuss time period and "consistent" winning as well as if he closely tracked his wins/losses. Not unreasonable at all to ask.

Then the OP guessed at a percentage range and got defensive.

I've been heavily involved in the gambling world and played hundreds of thousands of hands of various games. I've also had serious insight from professional gamblers as well as high level casino employees that are family of sorts.

I guess it depends on what consistent means. Like I said, my grandparents went for years (maybe once a month or once every two months) and they wouldn't have been able to do so if they weren't winning enough.

Now if by consistent you mean winning every time then no.

They always played max bet and always went with 1k or more. These are not rich people so in order to do what they did they must have been winning enough to go back as frequently as they did.

They also had specific machines that they always went too. Sometimes things would change up and the machines wouldn't pay out so they would cut back on going.

Do most people have a strategy for slots? Doubtful.

I do agree money is better spent other ways. If you want to play slots, I would try out his "datasheet" because that is exactly how my grandparents played for years. They wouldn't have done so if it didn't work for them regardless what all your professional gamblers and experience say.

I do agree on the emotional and the feels stuff.

Again, the implication was that you can make some amount of money doing this using a "strategy" as it's a data sheet after all. You're trying to gain knowledge that would net you an advantage. If that's not what a data sheet is and data sheets are meant as entertainment, then I retract what I said.

So, it comes down to this. Your grandparents if they played for a long period of time on the most generous machines are likely to have lost roughly 3 to 5% of the money they put in. This was acceptable to them as they enjoyed the entertainment or they were biased in remembering more of the times they won versus the times they lost. This is not my opinion, this is just the math of it.

Is it possible they won overall through a large time period/number of visits? Yes. Possible, but VERY unlikely.

This "data sheet" should be read for entertainment purposes only. If you want a "data sheet" on how casino games work or how you can gain an advantage, look elsewhere.

An example of what I mean:
http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/s...chine4.htm

Some additional entertainment on people consistently/knowingly beating slot machines:

http://mentalfloss.com/article/56646/11-...t-machines

Post: #34

(01-09-2015 02:36 PM)AneroidOcean Wrote:  Again, the implication was that you can make some amount of money doing this using a "strategy" as it's a data sheet after all. You're trying to gain knowledge that would net you an advantage. If that's not what a data sheet is and data sheets are meant as entertainment, then I retract what I said.

So, it comes down to this. Your grandparents if they played for a long period of time on the most generous machines are likely to have lost roughly 3 to 5% of the money they put in. This was acceptable to them as they enjoyed the entertainment or they were biased in remembering more of the times they won versus the times they lost. This is not my opinion, this is just the math of it.

Is it possible they won overall through a large time period/number of visits? Yes. Possible, but VERY unlikely.

This "data sheet" should be read for entertainment purposes only. If you want a "data sheet" on how casino games work or how you can gain an advantage, look elsewhere.

An example of what I mean:
http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/s...chine4.htm

Some additional entertainment on people consistently/knowingly beating slot machines:

http://mentalfloss.com/article/56646/11-...t-machines

Listen, I am not going to argue about this. I understand where you're coming from and agree to a certain point. I would fully agree if I hadn't seen my grandparents doing this for years.

I took this as if you want to play slots this worked for me sheet. You guys seem to have taken it as a get rich playing slots post.

My math tells me that my grandparents wouldn't have been able to consistently go back as much as they have if they weren't winning enough (besides getting work done around their house with winnings). Based on their income, it is impossible. If I were to play slots, I would do it the way they and CR suggested. I don't like slots so it's a non issue with me.

I do think some of you guys take this stuff way too seriously. If someone is dumb enough to pull out their entire savings and go play slots, they have much more issues than this forum can help with.

I do agree that it wouldn't be smart to think you can do this and make a full time career out of it. It should only be done for fun.

Post: #35

Normal statistical distribution guarantees that some people will walk away from slot machines as winners, and some of them will even keep winning in the dreaded long-term. But that's a result of uncontrollable random chance, not skill at playing the machines or picking casino areas.

Post: #36

never mind...

Post: #37

It's impossible to win at slots in the long run. There is no 'system' period. You can hit a jackpot and win some money, sure. Play often enough and you'll lose guaranteed.

I used to play poker semi-professionally. I kept track of everything both online and off using excel or pokertracker.

I've been around gamblers who claimed they could win at slots and games where I knew it was impossible to win in the long run. I asked to see their daily results. None of them had any. Most people don't keep track. They tell you about the time they won $1000, but don't tell you about the 5 times they lost $300 and that they are really $500 in the hole.

You can go to the casino throw some cash in a slot machine and win, I saw my buddy do that just last year. Walked in and won $1500 within 30 minutes. Of course it was pure luck and always will be.

Post: #38

You have to be skilled in finding exploits in the system, anything for the slightest edge. Honestly, only Blackjack, Poker and Video Poker is left that can be won in the long run without specific factors in place. However, CR has contributed valuable information, and it makes no sense for haters to come out of nowhere calling bullshit. Why are new forum members always either the trolls or the targets of longtime elitist members? This happens all across the internet.

Anyways, fuck the haters Cattle Rustler, keep doing your thing! Maybe you should look into Poker? You seem to have the mind for it.

Post: #39

(01-09-2015 05:58 PM)blackwolfwins Wrote:  Honestly, only Blackjack, Poker and Video Poker is left that can be won in the long run without specific factors in place.

So you agree with me, yet you call me a hater and a troll.

(01-09-2015 05:58 PM)blackwolfwins Wrote:  However, CR has contributed valuable information, and it makes no sense for haters to come out of nowhere calling bullshit. Why are new forum members always either the trolls or the targets of longtime elitist members? This happens all across the internet.

Cattle Rustler has contributed significantly to this forum. I like a lot of what he contributes. In fact, he's nowhere NEAR a new member. He's only slightly newer than me yet has nearly 3 times the post count. I find it odd that you mention new members in your diatribe (unless...like I suspect, your post is all about you). Interestingly enough, I would consider him a more senior member than me (I don't even consider myself a senior member by any means) based on his post count, much more reps, and more (I believe) web content.

It is not from personal dislike that I point out flaws in this particular Cattle Rustler thread. I commend him for being lucky and for knowing when to quit as well as minimizing his exposure, but I won't pretend that it is mostly pure luck that he's won and this bears repeating for the benefit of him but also for the other forum members who will read this thread.

Also, there is a saying in poker.

Quote:I'd rather be lucky than good.

I would rather be lucky too, trust me.

(01-09-2015 05:58 PM)blackwolfwins Wrote:  Anyways, fuck the haters Cattle Rustler, keep doing your thing!

I believe you're animosity towards me stems from me pointing out your weakly supported advice in this thread/post. If you instead of calling me a hater went about with a well reasoned argument for CR's side, you'd probably help other people and him out much more than calling me a hater.

Also, Rangarr stated most of the exact same issues I pointed out in your post there too. You should check it out, maybe if you believe I was singling you out and am "elitist" you can discuss his issues with him as they are valid/similar.

Post: #40

(01-09-2015 05:58 PM)blackwolfwins Wrote:  Anyways, fuck the haters Cattle Rustler, keep doing your thing! Maybe you should look into Poker? You seem to have the mind for it.

ITT I learned that anyone who understands basic math is a hater.

Post: #41

(01-09-2015 05:31 PM)Neo Wrote:  I used to play poker semi-professionally. I kept track of everything both online and off using excel or pokertracker.

I've been around gamblers who claimed they could win at slots and games where I knew it was impossible to win in the long run. I asked to see their daily results. None of them had any. Most people don't keep track. They tell you about the time they won $1000, but don't tell you about the 5 times they lost $300 and that they are really $500 in the hole.

^This. I have played poker in home games for the last 20 years. Two games per week and averaging 90+ games per year. Almost without exception, winning players keep records and losing players do not. I have seen many players fool themselves as to whether they were winning or losing.

Post: #42

Look, Cattle Rustler, I respect your game advice, but this datasheet is an example of why I'm reluctant to take financial and money making advice from most RVFers. I mean, I wouldn't go to Bogleheads and ask how to bang hot chicks, either.

I have met a PhD in statistics who is smarter than I will ever be. He used to work as a consultant for a casino in Vegas. Yes, they hire statisticians to find new ways to make money off of you and other gamblers. I would imagine they also hire a lot of behavioral scientists and marketers to find better ways to lure you in.

I have also met a millionaire who used to be in the casino business and own slot machines. He is now retired in his 40s. I have never met a professional gambler who is retired in his 40s (I don't consider poker gambling).

I suggest you learn basic statistics and understand why, in the long run, you will never win playing slot machines. If you have somehow won more than you lost so far, which I doubt, get out now. If you haven't, get out anyway. Well, if you have rich parents sending you money, never mind, just be aware that gambling is basically a tax on stupidity.

Intuition and self confidence work find when you game chicks, but a slot machine programmed by a nerd with an algorithm designed by another nerd is not a chick. You think you can fuck it, but you'll be the one getting fucked in the end.

Post: #43

The only way your grandparents were long term slot winners is if they hit a jackpot... I imagine this is the case as you say they went back quite often with 1k. This is called 'giving it back'. It is nice they were able to do this as it seems they enjoyed it, but they were not consistently grinding out a profit at slot machines. Nobody does that, because like other posters have stated slots are designed to take your money. If you sit there long enough, you will lose. If you win a big jackpot or any amount of money that means anything to you my advice is to cash out, head home and enjoy the money.

Post: #44

(01-10-2015 01:32 AM)JoeyKhmer Wrote:  The only way your grandparents were long term slot winners is if they hit a jackpot... I imagine this is the case as you say they went back quite often with 1k. This is called 'giving it back'. It is nice they were able to do this as it seems they enjoyed it, but they were not consistently grinding out a profit at slot machines. Nobody does that, because like other posters have stated slots are designed to take your money. If you sit there long enough, you will lose. If you win a big jackpot or any amount of money that means anything to you my advice is to cash out, head home and enjoy the money.

If what you say is true, they would have run out a long time ago. Now, they did hit jackpots, walked away and used that money to play other months. Sometimes winning and sometimes losing and sometimes hitting another jackpot.

They did this for a long, long time. I guess they didn't have a clue and should have listened to you guys and stay at home.

They didn't do this daily and it wasn't something they relied of for money even though they used some of the winnings for stuff like a new roof.

Of course, statistically speaking, what they did never happened.

I'm about to go back to work for someone else after 10 years of self employment because I just read 8 out of 10 businesses fail. I can't handle those stats.

You guys need to lighten up.

Post: #45

(01-10-2015 01:41 AM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

(01-10-2015 01:32 AM)JoeyKhmer Wrote:  The only way your grandparents were long term slot winners is if they hit a jackpot... I imagine this is the case as you say they went back quite often with 1k. This is called 'giving it back'. It is nice they were able to do this as it seems they enjoyed it, but they were not consistently grinding out a profit at slot machines. Nobody does that, because like other posters have stated slots are designed to take your money. If you sit there long enough, you will lose. If you win a big jackpot or any amount of money that means anything to you my advice is to cash out, head home and enjoy the money.

If what you say is true, they would have run out a long time ago. Now, they did hit jackpots, walked away and used that money to play other months. Sometimes winning and sometimes losing and sometimes hitting another jackpot.

They did this for a long, long time. I guess they didn't have a clue and should have listened to you guys and stay at home.

They didn't do this daily and it wasn't something they relied of for money even though they used some of the winnings for stuff like a new roof.

Of course, statistically speaking, what they did never happened.

I'm about to go back to work for someone else after 10 years of self employment because I just read 8 out of 10 businesses fail. I can't handle those stats.

You guys need to lighten up.

Even though a fair coin's probability of turning up heads is 50/50, streaks of heads after heads after heads can and frequently do happen. Does that mean the probability is not 50/50? No. Just because your grandparents may have stayed in the black after decades of play does not invalidate the fact that slots are negative EV (like every other game in the casino).

I'm not saying don't play slots. Heck, I bought a bunch of lottery tickets on the way home from work today. Those are basically the definition of a statistical waste of money. Don't care, it's not a lot of money and I got to daydream about what I'd do with X million dollars. Same with the casino - I gamble even though I know it's negative EV. Cost of entertainment.

But when a datasheet has demonstrably incorrect information, someone should say something.

Post: #46

(01-10-2015 01:53 AM)Peregrine Wrote:  Even though a fair coin's probability of turning up heads is 50/50, streaks of heads after heads after heads can and frequently do happen. Does that mean the probability is not 50/50? No. Just because your grandparents may have stayed in the black after decades of play does not invalidate the fact that slots are negative EV (like every other game in the casino).

I'm not saying don't play slots. Heck, I bought a bunch of lottery tickets on the way home from work today. Those are basically the definition of a statistical waste of money. Don't care, it's not a lot of money and I got to daydream about what I'd do with X million dollars. Same with the casino - I gamble even though I know it's negative EV. Cost of entertainment.

But when a datasheet has demonstrably incorrect information, someone should say something.

Like I said many times, you guys need to lighten up.

You are taking this stuff way too serious. You guys act like someone is going to read this datasheet and put their entire life savings into slot machines.

Don't play slots, I am ok with it.

I related that some of the stuff CR mentioned was similar to what my grandparents did for a long time. They always maxed their bets and a minimum 1k. It worked for them. You can throw all the stats you want and disbelieve that my grandparents were able to gamble this way for years on a retirement pension.

I do agree with your attitude towards gambling. I see it the same way as well as my grandparents. This wasn't something they were trying to make a full time income from. It was for entertainment.

This thread is going around in circles now.

Now I need to get a resume together because the stats say so.

Edited: Sorry Peregrine, I shouldn't have said you guys. I didn't think you were blowing this out of proportion but do think some of the other posts and the back and forth is getting a little absurd.

Post: #47

(01-10-2015 02:02 AM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  You are taking this stuff way too serious. You guys act like someone is going to read this datasheet and put their entire life savings into slot machines.

The reason guys are coming down hard on this thread is because OP presented it as a reliable way to make money when it's the exact opposite.

Post: #48

I wonder if this guy read the data sheet?

Post: #49

(01-10-2015 05:36 PM)Mujeriego Wrote:  

(01-10-2015 02:02 AM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  You are taking this stuff way too serious. You guys act like someone is going to read this datasheet and put their entire life savings into slot machines.

The reason guys are coming down hard on this thread is because OP presented it as a reliable way to make money when it's the exact opposite.

I just reread his post and still didn't get the "reliable" income angle.

Hopefully he doesn't think that way but if he does no one here will talk him out of it. Some people need to learn through experience.

Post: #50

Some people are pretty clueless. The main point is the choice of machines. Known fact #1-The high roller machines give out a better return. Known fact #2 -ALL SLOT MACHINES have pretty high odds but some have a better ROI.

How hard is this to understand?