Post: #1

This is an article written by Alec Torelli in Poker Player magazine. It makes some good points, including "Sure there are exceptions ... ."


Following your high school graduation, imagine you told your parents, "instead of sending me to college, give me $175,000 and let me do as I please." (For you rich people that's over 4 times higher than the average American income). "You will save $50,000 and spare me the pain of enduring 4 years in a classroom." Sound crazy? Think again. As a student, I would take this deal in a nano second. Furthermore, I'd be fully confident that I could use that $175,000 to make much more than my college diploma would ever award me. Don't believe me? What if I told you that you had two choices. Option 1: A degree from your university of choice (this is best case scenario) with potential college loans to pay off for the next 5 years. Option 2: ALL of the following over the course of the next four years; Visit 25 countries, learn a language of your choice, start your own business, learn to cook foods from all over the world, learn to dance, play an instrument, see your favorite bands perform in every corner of the globe, visit your very own wonders of the modern world, explore every major museum and library on your wish list, meet like minded people from every major metropolitan city on the planet AND have $50,000 left over - in essence DO your bucket list. Still not convinced? We'll folks, over the last four years I've done every one of these things and more! Ask yourself this, "why do I need a college degree?" I'll tell you why. Everyone else does it! Sure there are exceptions for those that want to be a doctor or lawyer. But a musician, dancer, producer, writer or (insert esoteric profession of choice here). Give me a break. Do you think Eric Clapton would say, "you better go to school so you can play guitar." No you imbecile. You lock yourself in your room and play until your fingers bleed. That's how you get good. Those who are going to "make it" aren't going to have their future hindered by their lack of diploma. Once we can understand that our education doesn't end when we leave college, but rather begins, we start to see the light!


"What about security?" you ask. I have an exercise for you. Talk to a recent college graduate. Ask them about the "flood" of opportunities available to them. Oh wait, they aren't there! There's no security in college. There's no pot of gold at the end of the tunnel. One of the key elements to one's success in poker is their ability to adjust to a given situation. If one's betting patterns become too predictable, that person is doomed to be crushed by opponents who are constantly adjusting to the flow of the game. Likewise, in 1960 when nobody could afford to go it was necessary to get ahead. In the information age of 2010, where the internet is readily available, you have the freedom to access things from anywhere on the planet. It's time we start utilizing the resources available to us to mold our lives into what we want them to be! Or you can do my old school favorite and travel! Instead of spending $40,000 taking art and european history you can learn first hand by exploring the Lourve, Vattican and Sistine chapel. You can take guided tours from natives who speak the language and are versed in the subject you wish to learn. It doesn't mean you need to open an art gallery, but the deciding factor shouldn't be monetary but rather, which is going to provide a more memorable experience? Which environment is going to provide more value? Which setting are you going to learn and retain more information? When we start seeking these more abstract questions, the answer becomes trivial. Instead of developing an adderol addiction and cramming for a test, you can take a boat ride through the Seine river in Paris and look at historical monuments! Folks, it's a no brainer. It's both ironic and painful that I seem to be a minority. My neighbor works 80 hours a week commuting an hour each way to LA as a lawyer and is absolutely miserable. I can't begin to describe how much harder his life is than mine. If he put in merely half of the effort at becoming financially independent, he could start to make money on his own. It's sad that the only thing holding us back is the fear of failing. We would rather have a certain way to be unhappy than take a chance to be happy doing something we truly want.

"Alec, you can't be serious. You can't expect me to just drop everything and travel the world for 4 years on a budget of $100,000." Fair enough. But to shed some light on the possibilities available should you pursue this path I'd like to share the details of a recent trip I took to New Zealand. For the 2009 New Year, I took a leap of faith and ventured alone to the unknown land of New Zealand. As it turns out, I had the time of my life. I went skydiving, took an overnight cruise of one of the wonders of the modern world, hiked through the countryside, climbed a glacier with an ice pick, explored the entire west coast, fell in love, ate amazing food, kayaked through the open waters, played with native seals, made countless new friends from all over the world and had memories that will last a lifetime. How much did the trip cost? Not including the flight it can be done for under $1000. I stayed in hostels where I met some of the coolest people of my life for $12 per night. They have these in every major city in the world where backpackers and aristocrats alike come from anywhere between Australia and America! I met one student who had been doing this for 3 years and everything he owned was in a single backpack. He worked at the hostels and took free rent as payment. On his journey around the world he visited over 20 countries on a budget of under $10,000 a year. Those who want this life will have it. We have everything you need right now. The only thing holding us back is fear and a lack of priority. We value useless material more than a life of adventure or aren't willing to sacrifice what it takes to do it. We associate traveling with luxury which I can assure you is far from the truth. Sadly, the only one we have to blame is ourselves. Too often I hear the lawyer wishing he could go there. The accounting wishing she could do that. The family wishing they could try this. To you my reply is always the same, you can.

Post: #2

This is short sighted, hedonistic, and irresponsible. 100 grand is nothing these days and will be spent faster than one can imagine. If and when that happens, this person will be degreeless and broke, a lethal combination.

The only reasonable thing there in my opinion is launching a business.

I went abroad three times while I was an undergrad. There is no reason someone else couldnt do the same thing. I have friends that have done most of the things listed in this article while getting a bachelors - including:

-learn a language of your choice
-start your own business
-learn to cook foods from all over the world
-learn to dance
-play an instrument
-see your favorite bands perform in every corner of the globe

The vast majority of the things listed here can be done while picking up a bachelors and/or masters degree. Getting a formal education does not mean you have to completely stop traveling and pursuing your passions and business independently.

Post: #3

I would prefer to bank the money, and get into a working trade and gain 4-5 years of experience vs coming out with a degree and still considered a lot less useful then someone with no degree but applicable experience.

You make money, save money, and get the foundation for a great job.

This could be done while also learning a language, taking basic courses at a local college, and still living your life to the fullest. This is what I wish I had done

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Post: #4

(04-24-2011 08:45 AM)kimleebj Wrote:  Following your high school graduation, imagine you told your parents, "instead of sending me to college, give me $175,000 and let me do as I please."

As a parent, I can imagine what your parents would tell you. But I cannot type it, I'd have to wash my hands five times after that.

Quote:Option 2: ALL of the following over the course of the next four years; Visit 25 countries, learn a language of your choice, start your own business, learn to cook foods from all over the world, learn to dance, play an instrument, see your favorite bands perform in every corner of the globe, visit your very own wonders of the modern world, explore every major museum and library on your wish list, meet like minded people from every major metropolitan city on the planet AND have $50,000 left over - in essence DO your bucket list.

He missed the point.
You are not going to college (or school) to make you happy. You do to make you (hopefully) better prepared to live the rest of your life. Think investment.

Quote:Do you think Eric Clapton would say, "you better go to school so you can play guitar." No you imbecile. You lock yourself in your room and play until your fingers bleed. That's how you get good.

I know hundreds of people who did just that, and none of them ever made it to even earning minimum wage from their skills. And I know several others, who are much less talented, but are doing much better because they went to a private school where they got connections. This is what you're spending four years for if you want to be in the entertainment industry. It is all about who knows you. And locking yourself in a room will lead to nobody knowing about you.

PS. The dude sounds like yet another wannabe Tim Ferris.

Post: #5

Thanks for sharing that kim. I wish I had read that while I was in high school and HAD the balls back then to make my case for my parents to go my way from the very start. To make a long story short, I do have a college diploma that has been hanging on my room's wall for 4 years now (shit, how time flies fast, I remember the graduation day as if it was yesterday!!!). And I have yet to use it one freaking day/time in my working days. It's by far the most expensive piece of paper I have ever purchased. While I did learn a couple of cool things, I have learned far more in my working years at the various different jobs I've had for 10 years. However, when and where I learned the most was in my travels and especially whilm running my online business. I'm lucky that my student loan is no where near as high (6K "only") as opposed to the norm for the average college grad of 50-100K, I wish I had used that 6K differently doing something I love: travelling and creating/building and running my online biz.

So for me, that college degree has been a total waste of money and above all, precious time. IMO, Unless someone has a very concrete plan/desireand commitment to become a highly educated specialist or a professional MD or lawyer, then a college degree is not, in most cases, an efficient way of their money and above all, their time.

Post: #6

So far my degree has never come into use either. I tell employers I have it, not one has ever checked into, they just nod and ask me about my experience

Chef In Jeans
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Post: #7

I loved being at uni, it was a few years of drink, drugs, constant partying, girls and no responsibilities. I did next to no work and still passed. I partied harder whilst doing my honours degree than most people in their first year of uni. While it did teach me a few things my degree it's self hasn't been all that useful to me nor have I really been able to capatilise on it because these days, at least in my country, having a degree doesn't mean so much any more. Education is free here so everyone has one. I don't regret the experience at all but I don't think it's helped me in life too much either.

Quote:This is short sighted, hedonistic, and irresponsible

Who cares? Life is there to be lived. Enjoy it!

Quote:You are not going to college (or school) to make you happy. You do to make you (hopefully) better prepared to live the rest of your life. Think investment.

Most people, in this country at least, don't come out any better prepared. They just have a load of debt, a damaged liver, even less motivation than they did before uni (4 years of partying every night does that) to get a job and end up working a checkout job in a supermarket because their degree is worthless.

I'm much more interested in seeing the world than I am in settling down into a job long term which is what I've been doing the past few years, travelling extensively. I work when I need cash and as soon as I have enough I quit and take off again on another adventure.

When you look back on your life as you lay on your death bed what do you want to remember, the times spent in the office or the memorable experiences you had whilst travelling the world? I know what I'd choose.

Post: #8

I agree with this comment on a probabilistic world view. College counselors uses the metric that on average college grads earn 1 mil more than non-grads in their lifespan. However, if I were to run the numbers we would quickly see that the outliers like bill gates will skew the returns favoring non-grads. Also, in a recession type environment, those with non-bachelors will out compete those with degrees on account of the ease of scoring a menial job, which allows a technical skill set (which is why the plumber/electrician earns more than the guy with a tie). The cost-benefit analysis that applies to MBAs also applies to undergrad education.

The worse thing about college in my opinion is that it kills creativity. Nothing kills the inquisitive mind than telling how things are "supposed" to work.

The problem is that when you are at college age, you are still an inexperienced half-child living in lala land. Unless you are brilliant at figuring things out, but 99% aren't capable of that. In fact if you lock the smart kids in a room instead of letting them go to the university, you will see that they will be more successful in the long term on account of natural differences.

Bottom line is, aptly as Pink Floyd puts it. We don't need no...

Post: #9

Education should be looked at like buying a car, carefully weighing the price and model.

My bachelors cost me about $17,000, and led to a decent income for 6 years in the corporate sector. It was a great deal, and helped me build a cushion by the time I quit my job until book income started to help. While I can't say my microbiology degree is helping me today, I didn't know what my real interests were until I passed 25 years old.

If my bachelors cost $50k or more, I would have unhappily stayed in job longer due to the loans. If you can get a cheap education that puts you in a job, then go for it. But throwing a lot of money in a major you "like" without diligently researching your job options is stupid. In that case loaf around on the cheap to see what interests you, or maybe teach English abroad to see if that sort of lifestyle suits you.

Post: #10

University is just a method to signal creditability. If you can do this by other means, congrats.

My advice is unless you're going to some amazing school and EXPECT to use it to get into snob job (finance, law, management, etc) go to the best cheapest school possible. I did community college for 2 years and after wards went to a good public university. Total costs for everything including room, board and books was 30k. Parents helped pay a bit and I did some part time so I got out of college debt free. It helped that i wasn't saddled in debt since i had a chance to chill for a year after college and then decide to take on debt for grad school when i was sure what i wanted.

Post: #11

this is alittle bit impractical. no parents are gonna give there kids that kind of dough!

for most normal people you need a degree to be qualified for most career based jobs. then after that you need connections. hell connections are just as important as having a degree. You need both!

my advise to most normal guys would be this.



1. Try and graduate highschool a year early.

2. Decide where you would like to live. I wish like hell I would have went to school in south fla. One thing kids dont realize is you can get residency in one yr then you dont have to pay the astronomical out of state tuition. Move to said location work and save money for 8 months then travel for like 3 then get ready to start school! Or if your parents will pay out of state than you can just do that.

3. Pick a reputable school. If you dont have the grades out of high school than go to community college for one yr, make good grades, then transfer.

4. Take summer school and look to graduate college in 3 years.

5. Do a semester or year abroad

6. Decide what kind of life you want ie want to be rich or just have a simple life ect. Then decided what stuff you like or are interested in. Then research degrees and ways to achieve lifestyle and interests. This is very fucking hard bc you mind will change a million times!

7. Dont get no common bullshit degree! You need to specialize in something. If its business than go Finance or Economics or Accounting.

8. Intern somewhere ur senor year or right after you graduate.

9. Graduate with good grades

**If you didnt have the parents to pay for everything then I would STRONGLY suggest you get into the ROTC(army, airforce,navy ect) program and have them pay for everything and just do your 4 years after you graduate. Pick Air Force it is easy and a breeze! You can save a nice stash in those 4 yrs. Now its time to travel for a couple of yrs! After that you should be around 26-27.

Now you should be around 21 yrs old with a good degree and internship experience.

Here is where I would advise to spend the next 2-4 yrs traveling. Move back home, live with parents, work ur ass off for 6 months then travel for like 4-6 months. Rinse and repeat for a couple yrs. Take one yr to go teach English in Asia or something.

Post: #12

To me, this all depends on your reasons for going to college in the first place. If you're going there simply, and solely, to convert those four years into a career or straight cash, it might not make sense anymore. To an increasing degree, this is why people go to college: a means to an end. And that makes sense in 90 percent of cases. That's all they want: a job that pays the bills.

But too many people have diluted the bachelor's degree to the extent that it has little value in the open market. In a society that has, for better--but mostly worse--staked its claim on a mostly white-collar workforce, the college degree has become a common rubber stamp. In the vastly overwhelming number of cases it gains you admission into the corporate-slave workforce or, if you decide to press on, into the once-prestigious (but now just marginally higher-earning) professions of doctor, lawyer, etc. In those cases, get the best deal that you can--like car insurance.

The exceptions are, of course, degrees from truly elite universities, your "Top Tens." Those have added-value over degrees from a common school regarded as simply good or, worse, just average and unknown. A degree from Yale still has a ring to it, and places you--in many cases--well over anyone with a degree from University of Fill-in-the-Blank-Whatever-Shit-Hole in the stack of resumes, even if they were the valedictorian at their school and you were the George W. Bush of your class. Not to mention that when you're at those places, you make contacts with people that are the children of elites and/or will be elites themselves. On a drunken night, you may end up fucking Dick Cheney's granddaughter or something. That has value. Look at the degrees of the last whatever-number of presidents. Their value still bears out.

That said, there is still a small minority that go to college for its own sake. I consider myself in that camp. The experience itself was worthwhile to me and therefore worth paying for. I never deluded myself that my "investment" was going to turn into dollar signs when I got out. Going to college was like traveling or learning a language or whatever for four years for me. So I came out relatively satisfied. Any added benefit from the degree that I yield, in the workforce or elsewhere, is cream on the cake.

Post: #13

(04-25-2011 10:22 PM)Dash Global Wrote:  1. Try and graduate highschool a year early.
...
4. Take summer school and look to graduate college in 3 years.

Graduating high school early can be problematic. But you can take Advanced Placement or CLEP exams and get around one semester of college credit. Then you can take one extra course per semester and graduate in three years without summer school. This will save money.

College courses and experiences can help people learn about their interests. The problem is many eighteen-year-olds don't know what they want to do. In this respect it is better to travel and experiment before graduation. It's just a real waste when students spend four expensive years partying and end up undereducated and unemployed.

Post: #14

(04-26-2011 07:35 AM)kimleebj Wrote:  

(04-25-2011 10:22 PM)Dash Global Wrote:  1. Try and graduate highschool a year early.
...
4. Take summer school and look to graduate college in 3 years.

Graduating high school early can be problematic. But you can take Advanced Placement or CLEP exams and get around one semester of college credit. Then you can take one extra course per semester and graduate in three years without summer school. This will save money.

College courses and experiences can help people learn about their interests. The problem is many eighteen-year-olds don't know what they want to do. In this respect it is better to travel and experiment before graduation. It's just a real waste when students spend four expensive years partying and end up undereducated and unemployed.

Now thinking about it, it is prob better to just travel and learn about life and real world by new experiences and meeting new people from all over the world before starting college.

Soo travel from 17 - 21 ish!! Then go to college! lol I could have saved soo much time and money had I done this!

Post: #15

http://under30ceo.com/10-ways-college-wi...eneurship/

Post: #16

(04-25-2011 06:37 PM)Gringo Wrote:  Most people, in this country at least, don't come out any better prepared. They just have a load of debt, a damaged liver, even less motivation than they did before uni (4 years of partying every night does that) to get a job and end up working a checkout job in a supermarket because their degree is worthless.

Most people in this country seem to have an entitlement mentality, and expect everything to fall into their hands. This is why vast majority of employees in every company here in Silicon Valley are Asians, and most whites I see there are in their 40s or older. So I have little sympathy for those who get out of college with just a damaged liver. But after all, McDonald needs cashiers too?

Quote:I'm much more interested in seeing the world than I am in settling down into a job long term which is what I've been doing the past few years, travelling extensively. I work when I need cash and as soon as I have enough I quit and take off again on another adventure.

This works very well when you're young. It is much more difficult to pull when you're in your 40s, as your expenses gonna be higher and your ability to take quick job will be limited. As I like to say, a "starving musician" kid in his early 20s who lives on a beach may do very well, pull a lot of pussy and generally live a comfortable life. But a "starving musician" in his 40s living on a beach is pretty much a homeless.

Quote:When you look back on your life as you lay on your death bed what do you want to remember, the times spent in the office or the memorable experiences you had whilst travelling the world?

What I gonna remember on my death bed is probably the last thing I care about.

Post: #17

let's be honest: formal education sucks and is a waste of youth (including ours).

here we are, living out our lives in a perma-adolesence writing on a forum to get laid because our mainly drives were snuffed to fit in a classroom while we learned about bullshit we'd never use.

education is a failure on every level. if there didn't exist some weird dogma in modern countires that makes education a pre-requisite to have a job that pays over 20/hr, no one would go to school.

a country that only made school mandatory up until age 12 would probably become one of the better/richer nations on the planet. if kids were allowed to work from 12 to 18, they'd be well adjusted, carry savings into their twenties, and probably express a desire for marriage by age 25 or so. instead we destroy the lives of the youth, causing perminent sociopathetic tendencies towards pleasure seeking activites by forcing people to stay locked in a classroom/prison until 22 years of age.

one of the reasons our society is collapsing today is because of education system. (falling birthrates, courrpt governments). until the education system is changed, there cannot be serious long term improvment.


if I had a son id do my best to pull him out of school ASAP, find a way for him to work, and tell him he's not going to college unless he knows why he's going there. if/when he goes, he'll be age 23-27, old enough to clean up with girls and responsible enough to get straight A's.

going to school for money is stupid, I regret college every day.

Post: #18

(04-26-2011 10:21 PM)Samseau Wrote:  a country that only made school mandatory up until age 12 would probably become one of the better/richer nations on the planet.

Education Across Countries
# 1 Norway: 16.9 years
# 2 Finland: 16.7 years
# 3 Australia: 16.6 years
# 4 United Kingdom: 16.4 years
# 5 New Zealand: 16.2 years
# 106 Chad: 3.9 years
# 107 Djibouti: 3.4 years
# 108 Burkina Faso: 2.8 years
# 109 Niger: 2.3 years
# 110 Mali: 2.1 years.

Quote:society is collapsing today is because of ... falling birthrates

Birthrates per 1000 by Country
1 Democratic Republic of the Congo 49.6
2 Guinea-Bissau 49.6
3 Liberia 49.6
4 Niger 49.0
5 Afghanistan 48.2
191 Japan 8.3
192 Germany 8.2
193 Singapore 8.2
194 Hong Kong 7.6
195 Macau 7.6

Post: #19

you need to have a particular skill first and foremost. entrepreneurship should be backed by skills too

work on your self-education as much as you can

and yeah travel the world! travels make the best education

college or no is kinda individual. study either fundamental sciences or something applicable. no crap like computing (yeah except at post grad and PhD level, computer sciences education sucks... better study maths, physics, engineering), nutrition or general business degrees... sure, studying arts if you got talents, passion and are hard working is awesome too. if you are not studious type, go get a trade! tradesmen make decent money even in 3rd world countries, compared to local standards

you americans are too spoiled and got that entitlement crap. it's why silicon valley is dominated by asians. also there are plenty of europeans, namely from eastern europe. 2 3rds of new founded businesses in the states got foreign born founders

getting an odd job and stash some dosh at 20 is easy. doing it at 40 is errrmmm weird. no, i don't say you should settle into a crappy corp job. you must have some knowledge that could be sold

entrepreneurship without being backed by quite particular skillset doesn't work that well, unless you are the next richard branson, what i really doubt as you are posting here

Post: #20

(04-26-2011 10:21 PM)Samseau Wrote:  here we are, living out our lives in a perma-adolesence writing on a forum to get laid because our mainly drives were snuffed to fit in a classroom while we learned about bullshit we'd never use.

education is a failure on every level. if there didn't exist some weird dogma in modern countires that makes education a pre-requisite to have a job that pays over 20/hr, no one would go to school.

This, though I'm loath to admit it, is probably true for a majority of us--at least to some extent. Though, I'd also blame beta programming from the media and general American culture. Many of the lies about women and relationships that were crammed up our ass--and stifled us for a certain number of years--didn't just come from a classroom. It didn't help the problem, though.

One of the major problems I have with "education"--especially in the early years--is that it focuses so little on practical knowledge you use in everyday life. This is especially the case since American schools started phasing out shop classes (woodshop, auto shop, home-economics for girls, etc.), as part of this effort to send "every kid to college." These days, kids that have no place in a classroom--but would kick ass in a carpentry shop or something--are being pushed into the college-to-office-slave-job track.

Fewer and fewer kids are learning how to be men (and women, to be frank).

Post: #21

I graduated magna from a pretty good college and it's meant jack for me and my career. I've never had a job after college. College was a good experience, but if I could do it all again (with my family's approval) I would have traveled, worked on self-improvement, and practiced starting businesses for 4 years instead.

Post: #22

Samseau: I agree with you in spirit but historically those societies which focused on advanced education for its populace have had the most successful empires (economically speaking). Say what you want about the American empire today, but for a period of time our educated elite was outclassed by no one. Not long ago a college degree from an American university meant a job and a career. Not anymore, unfortunately.

Post: #23

Quote:This works very well when you're young.

Best to do it whilst you can get away with then otherwise you'll never be able to do it.

Quote:What I gonna remember on my death bed is probably the last thing I care about.

I think I'd feel a little more content with my life if I'd really lived and enjoyed it though. Looking back and seeing all you did was get an education then go onto work and do that for life seems a bit dissapointing.

Post: #24

College is always a good thing if you want to study a useful major that can actually benefit you once you get out of college.

Right now, for instance, I would be in a much better position as an entrepreneur if I had a background in electrical engineering, or some other hard science. I could use my knowledge to my benefit because I would have a better idea of what I can invent/create.

America has moved away from a direction of making labor-intensive shit, onto more technical and sophisticated production.

Interesting article regarding the current education bubble

Post: #25

(04-27-2011 02:53 PM)Roosh Wrote:  Samseau: I agree with you in spirit but historically those societies which focused on advanced education for its populace have had the most successful empires (economically speaking). Say what you want about the American empire today, but for a period of time our educated elite was outclassed by no one. Not long ago a college degree from an American university meant a job and a career. Not anymore, unfortunately.

Now American universities aren't about education, they're about money.

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