Post: #1

First let me give you a context: I'm a young adult and a student living in the Netherlands. My game is somewhere between beginner and intermediate. My notch count is 14, of which 11 have been in the last 6 months. Now here's something that I see happening a little too often in my game, which I will illustrate by giving a few examples.

I. I have a chick on tinder with some good convo's back and forth. She seems to be interested. Monday she decided to meet a dude through tinder, and it turned out it was a practical joke where everyone in the bar took off their clothes and she was filmed. Because she was duped, she lays on some bullshit about not being ready to date. What I care about is behavior: she decided to go on a date with the dude, but she did not go on a date with me. HE was mister "right now". I seemed to be more on a "back up" or "frienzone" tract. Based on her behavior.

II. Last night I was spitting game at a drunken chick. Her words: "you have a nice smile, you're cute, you're really smooth, if it was any other girl other than me they'd have gone home with you". She also said: "You're pretty chill and I know you're the kind of guy who would accept a 'no' ". Blablabla, I don't care about the words I care about the behavior. I know she was kind of easy, but I was not able to game her sufficiently to land the pull. There are, however, guys that DID pull it off. Once again it seems the same story: she's attracted, but she wants to delegate me to the "Long Term Work For It" tract, while reserving the "Fuck Me Right Now" tract for others.

III. Another chick on tinder, I met her for drinks and stuff. Logistics were not favorable for pulling. Later on whatsapp I drop some banter, with a bit of a douchebag/badboy slant. She responds: "haha I don't believe you're that way". Based on her other behaviors I can once again see I've been put in the "Long Term Work For It" tract, as opposed to the "Fuck Me Right Now" tract.

Here's the way I perceive reality, especially when dealing with girls. I don't care about what they say. I just don't take it seriously. All I care about is behavior. And I am assuming that, in theory, there are guys for whom she "made the exception" and "it just happened". But that's not the role I seem to get yet consistently. Too often I get delegated to "Work For It" status.

I'm wondering why they are putting me into the "Wait For It Work For It" tract. And I'm wondering what I can improve to get into the "Fuck Me Right Now" category.

It's like every single chick has this intricate little bag of tricks which inevitably leads you to bite into their "Wait For It Work For It" bait and lead you down a maze of bullshit hurdles to increase your investment. And I kind of know it's there but I just can't seem to recognize it before it's too late.

Edit: lol just saw this thread might be relevant
/thread-41528.html

Post: #2

My bet is your body language, eyes, and vocal tone are incongruent with what's coming out of your mouth.

You know what's right, you just aren't letting yourself show it off.

You need to look like a guy that would have no problem dragging by the hand into a parking lot, alley, or bathroom and fucking her like a maniac. You need to have that wild sexual stare in the back of your eyes, you need to have gestures that say you don't care and you want sex.

It's hard to learn, you get it through gaining confidence with experience that you know there is a good chance you'll be banging them soon so you act like it's gonna happen.

Keep going, watch your body language. Try to develop a bit rougher persona.

Post: #3

(11-19-2014 10:46 AM)dtpilgrim Wrote:  First let me give you a context: I'm a young adult and a student living in the Netherlands. My game is somewhere between beginner and intermediate. My notch count is 14, of which 11 have been in the last 6 months. Now here's something that I see happening a little too often in my game, which I will illustrate by giving a few examples.

I. I have a chick on tinder with some good convo's back and forth. She seems to be interested. Monday she decided to meet a dude through tinder, and it turned out it was a practical joke where everyone in the bar took off their clothes and she was filmed. Because she was duped, she lays on some bullshit about not being ready to date. What I care about is behavior: she decided to go on a date with the dude, but she did not go on a date with me. HE was mister "right now". I seemed to be more on a "back up" or "frienzone" tract. Based on her behavior.

You've been talking to her through tinder and haven't gotten her number yet ? (strike 1).

She gives you some BS excuse about some prank being filmed ? (I would of jokingly asked for proof)

She decided to go on a date with the same dude who pranked her ? (this isn't making sense) (strike 2)

I would've ejected her.

Quote:II. Last night I was spitting game at a drunken chick. Her words: "you have a nice smile, you're cute, you're really smooth, if it was any other girl other than me they'd have gone home with you". She also said: "You're pretty chill and I know you're the kind of guy who would accept a 'no' ". Blablabla, I don't care about the words I care about the behavior. I know she was kind of easy, but I was not able to game her sufficiently to land the pull. There are, however, guys that DID pull it off. Once again it seems the same story: she's attracted, but she wants to delegate me to the "Long Term Work For It" tract, while reserving the "Fuck Me Right Now" tract for others.

She's seeing you as a provider, not a lover. She definitely friend zoned you, she was just boosting your ego but pushing you into the friendzone.

Quote:III. Another chick on tinder, I met her for drinks and stuff. Logistics were not favorable for pulling. Later on whatsapp I drop some banter, with a bit of a douchebag/badboy slant. She responds: "haha I don't believe you're that way". Based on her other behaviors I can once again see I've been put in the "Long Term Work For It" tract, as opposed to the "Fuck Me Right Now" tract.

Here's the way I perceive reality, especially when dealing with girls. I don't care about what they say. I just don't take it seriously. All I care about is behavior. And I am assuming that, in theory, there are guys for whom she "made the exception" and "it just happened". But that's not the role I seem to get yet consistently. Too often I get delegated to "Work For It" status.

The good thing is you're ahead of the curve and recognizing this.

Quote:I'm wondering why they are putting me into the "Wait For It Work For It" tract. And I'm wondering what I can improve to get into the "Fuck Me Right Now" category.

There is ALOT you can do to improve, body language, the way you speak, the way you dress, the pictures you put on tinder, your bio on tinder.

Travesty is absolutely right !

I'll also add, be more aggressive, more assholish, more cocky/funny.

I'm rude, crude, funny, with no filter - it works because it's who I am.

Find things that work for you, look at yourself in the mirror, practice your stance and talking.

Warm up with people at bars or coffee shops, start talking to strangers, it'll really help you relax and be a natural.

Anywhere I go, whether on dates or not, I ALWAYS talk to strangers to warm up and you never know what kind of networking you can find (jobs & hook ups).

Post: #4

You seem to be on the right track.

I recommend you purchase KrauserPUA's works as well as the recent new Daygame.com model with Tom Torrero.

They specifically have moved towards fast paced r-selected (Lover vs. Boyfriend/Provider) Game. Not only is such a concentration of Game putting you into the right kind of Lover-category, making the bang easier and faster, but it is also different for the girls, who are not going into potentially painful deep-conversion with you (at least not as often).

Check out the stuff and you will see the massive difference - there is not even a need to feign some "Alpha" style - Torrero is a long way off from most men's perception of Alpha, but he pulls it off.

Post: #5

(11-19-2014 10:46 AM)dtpilgrim Wrote:  I. I have a chick on tinder with some good convo's back and forth. She seems to be interested. Monday she decided to meet a dude through tinder,

Red Flag is telling you about some other guy.

Next.

(11-19-2014 10:46 AM)dtpilgrim Wrote:  II. Last night I was spitting game at a drunken chick. Her words: "you have a nice smile, you're cute, you're really smooth, if it was any other girl other than me they'd have gone home with you".

You got "nice guy'd"

(11-19-2014 10:46 AM)dtpilgrim Wrote:  III. Another chick on tinder, I met her for drinks and stuff. Logistics were not favorable for pulling. Later on whatsapp I drop some banter, with a bit of a douchebag/badboy slant. She responds: "haha I don't believe you're that way". Based on her other behaviors I can once again see I've been put in the "Long Term Work For It" tract, as opposed to the "Fuck Me Right Now" tract.

Either get congruent, or roll with the inconsistency.

If you have a baby face, but yapping at chicks like a seasoned sailor, there's of course going to be a mismatch.

So if they call you on it, you gotta play it.

"If you've seen the things that i've seen, walked in my shoes...but i'll just leave it at that"

Hinting at some mysterious past that doesn't connect with how you look. SOMETIMES you can build intrigue.

Not all the time though.

But the key though is to keep them on the hook and get them out.

If you can get these chicks out, talk to em, and also lay your paws on em, they'll know that you're not fucking around about fucking.

It's sometimes better to get that HARD no, than a soft one. The soft ones drive you up the wall.

WIA

Post: #6

OP I can relate to seeing girls subtly 'write me off' ('nice guy', no bang, friend) whilst trying to still get more attention from me. This can also be a test so she can see if a guy is alpha, or will have a beta response so she can just dump you in the same bin (category) as 90-something per cent of other guys. Your self-awareness is an asset. From thinking about the past I realised the reason is appearance. A masculine physique, the right body language (posture, eye contact etc) and manner of dress are important. The other thing is the vibe given off (fun to be around but assertive too). We are better off expressing sexual interest, escalating, touching etc. A big no-no is being very playful (a.k.a nice) with them and pandering. Holding frame and sticking to your guns at all costs will help.

Post: #7

I also think this might come from a too-nice-guy attitude.
Learning to punch someone changed this behavior in me, maybe you should look this way?
(Began practicing Krav-Maga 1 year ago, really changed the way I behave with both sexes)

Post: #8

ok let's dig...

- what topic did you talk about with them. was the convo more about fun silly spontaneous stuff or ratherserious logical things?

- how do you dress, casual formal etc?

- was there any physical contact between you?

- did you move them around? switched venues? leading by hand etc?

- when talking were you addressing her like telling something you like/dislike about her or was it more like a random chit chat about that have nothing in common directly with her?
- did you express your interest in more sexual way or in 'nice' way?

girls can quickly categorize you depending on how you come across to them in general. there is big difference between expressing intent and having 'good' interaction.

Post: #9

Get a nice-looking female wingwoman (or two). When you go out, make it ambiguous whether you're "with" the girls you take out or not.

This will subtly alter the power dynamic. If a girl likes you but wants to make you "work for it," she'll make you work less hard if she thinks you can easily get it somewhere else.

The wingwoman concept is one of the reasons I am in favor of the idea of male-female friendships, which some people here are against. Female friends can come in handy.

Studies have shown that women like men better when they think the men are attached (it's called pre-selection and has been written about a lot at Heartiste).

I discovered the real-life effects of this after my divorce. I was prepared to cash in the chips of all the women that heavily flirted with me when I was married. I never got the chance because as soon as they learned I was single, they disappeared. Had I know this was going to happen, I'd have lied and said I was still with my wife but we're doing a "trial separation."

Anyway, this might not be the answer, but being seen with an attractive woman won't hurt you, that's for sure.

Post: #10

Indeed DoBA, pre-selection is huge.
I used to have a regular wingwoman in Dublin but she since absconded to Germany so now it's pretty much dudes I roll with.
Unfortunately I was into my wingwoman(but it was unrequited), so didn't make the most of the opportunities I had with other women, when out with her, but there's no question I got more attention from other women when out with her.
The fact she was a tall striking elegant brunette with long hair helped I'm sure.

Post: #11

Thanks for the feedback, players.

I. What I said to the chick on tinder, the one who was duped, and the one who I seemed to have good convo's with was the following.

She: Hmm dilemma, should I eat baguette with butter from the oven, or gingerbread with quark?

This got my alarm bells ringing, because it reminded me of the kind of conversations I might have had with friendzone chicks in the past. I thought, am I really being friendzoned on TINDER of all places?

Me: Haha it's nice talking to you, but if this isn't going to lead anywhere I'm going to cut it off because I don't do friendzones

To which I got a bountiful load of bull about "not being ready to date" due to being hurt from being duped on the date.

Post: #12

(11-21-2014 07:00 AM)dtpilgrim Wrote:  To which I got a bountiful load of bull about "not being ready to date" due to being hurt from being duped on the date.

You saved time.
"Next!"

Post: #13

In response to XXL, who asked the following questions

- what topic did you talk about with them. was the convo more about fun silly spontaneous stuff or ratherserious logical things?

The convo was about silly spontaneous stuff. I'll give you an example of a convo with the tinder chick, she is a pilot.

Me: Are you a member of the mile high club?

Her: Hahaha no

Me: Is that not a prerequisite for being a pilot?

Her: Hahaha no, are you a member?

Me: It's on the bucketlist, next to being published and learning to mop (mop as in cleaning)

Her: You can help me with the mopping aspect

Me: As long as you help me with my other bucket list items

- how do you dress, casual formal etc?

When I go out I dress in v-necks to show muscle. I dress to accentuate body form and posture.

- was there any physical contact between you?

I tried to get the drunk chick horny by getting close and grinding and making sure she could feel my semi. I suppose I could've done more.

- did you move them around? switched venues? leading by hand etc?

Logistically it was not optimate, my bike was stolen and I asked the drunk girl for a ride to the vending machine for money so I could buy a bike from a bum. Tried to game her but she went home.

- when talking were you addressing her like telling something you like/dislike about her or was it more like a random chit chat about that have nothing in common directly with her?

Good point, I could have dropped more qualifications. I am recalcitrant to do so, as I still irrationally believe giving compliments is needy.

- did you express your interest in more sexual way or in 'nice' way?

With the drunk girl I showed some sexual intent, going in for a kiss, closing the distance, et cetera. But when she lightly pushed me away I did back off because I don't want to be burnt at the stake like Julien Blanc.

Post: #14

from what you wrote my first guess is that you had fun playful convo but there was not enough escalation and overall physical interactivity between you. trust me i know how it feels like.

I'm not talking about grinding or some overt moves but rather just steady progressive moving forward from the very start. that's what forces girls to either comply or reject you but no girl will friend zone you in a classic sense.

Post: #15

OP, compared to the 11 you notched in the past 6 months, how many women would you say you have approached? While I don't know the average success rate of the best here, I remember a couple who mentioned a success rate of 5%. So instead of taking at face value the zillion different excuses women may give for not being interested perhaps you should simply move on and approach more women.

Post: #16

I'd say approx. 300, where I count the bare act of saying hello as an approach. But fair enough, numbers game never changes