Post: #1

I wonder If there are some good resources you guys can share with regards to this? I want to get away from the whole chubby powerlifter look which is the path I think I started to go down. I feel like "Starting Strength" model has given me a good introduction to lifting for which I'm grateful but I don't want to "Permabulk". So that whole "lift heavy, eat" has run its course, at least for the moment. I'm not as strong as I'd like to be but I need to lose some fat more than I need to worry about squatting 400 for reps.

Post: #2

If you want to look like a bodybuilder, you have to train like one

run a traditional bodybuilder bodypart split 4-5x per week. add in 2-3x 30min cardio sessions at the end of each workout.

Finding a traditional split is not hard, but generally you train in the 8-12 rep range and coupled with the "main lifts" you focus on in SS you do more isolation.

Post: #3

Check out Greg's material at kinobody. He aims for that shredded look but strength too.

Ive been using his program for a year and I have improved my physique quite noticeably.

Post: #4

Quote:The absolute best exercise for fat loss is sprinting.

If you haven't sprinted in a while, I'd recommend sprinting up a hill if there's one near where you live. Using a hill limits your range of motion which will reduce injuries. Make sure you warm up and don't go all out right away as it's a good way to pull your quadriceps, especially if you haven't sprinted in a long time.

The two main reasons why sprinting is best for fat loss are EPOC/Excess Post-exercise Oxygen Consumption and that sprinting promotes a plethora of enzymatic changes which encourage both fat burning and reduced fat storage.

Sprinting is also anaerobic and will build muscle, though hard lifting will usually do a better job at this because sprinting tends to tax your respiratory system more, so you usually run out of breath quick.

Again, please warm up and take it easy the first few times, especially if you're inexperienced, in order to avoid injury.

Throw in a couple sprints during one of your workout days! If you've already been weight training, you'll shed fat and feel healthier all around. Your lifts might even go up, or you might have less 'off-days'.

Sprinting hits your deltoids hard, too, if you have good form and pump your arms hard.

Here's a recent thread on how losing BF% changes your facial aesthetics, if you're interested in that: /thread-42296.html

Also, I think it makes your dick bigger, but don't quote me on that.

Post: #5

Starting Strength has poisoned newbie's mind so much that you all think strength equals lifting "heavy" (lol, SS isn't heavy) and eating like a fat fuck. Nobody doing serious powerlifting trains SS, because you get slow, weak and fat.

Sure, mass helps in gaining strength, but strength is ultimately a skill and mostly neuro-muscular in nature. Have you seen top weightlifters and powerlifters in regular weight classes and not the super heavies? They are ripped as hell.

Pictures here: guys not doing Slowing Strength by a fat Texan, ripped as fuck and lifting a ton of weights



Lu Xiaojun (170lb weight class) with a 260kg / 575lb paused high bar squat



Josh Hancott (163lb weight class) with a word junior record 271kg / 597lb deadlift

Post: #6

Now with that out of the way...

I have a few beginner-intermediate programs, but mine tend to be customised for very specific people who asked me for help with their problems, and they usually have an existing injury (my niche, if you will) so I can't really share it.

If you're a typical male who's lifted some weights before, has no existing injury or serious injury history, and can learn things by yourself ok (if you can't, get a lifting coach), I recommend checking out Candito's stuff:

http://www.canditotraininghq.com/free-st...-programs/

He's an elite-ranked powerlifter in the junior 83kg (181lb) weight class, very strong and also very ripped.

The linear program should be good to start with.

Not sure if Candito has it in his PDF, but lift every rep as fast and explosive as you can. If you're grinding out the reps regardless of exercise, the weight is too heavy. THAT is how you get strong AND ripped. Grinding weights out just to get those 5 reps and the required weekly increment (the Starting Strength mentality) leads straight to the madness of milk and fat gainz.

Eat normal, don't pig out. I'm one weight class below Candito, train at a much higher volume than either of his templates and I probably just clear 2000 calories on a big day. But YMMV. Just make sure you get plenty of proteins, think around 1g per lb of bodyweight or more. Don't care about the rest, as long as you're not eating processed crap.

On non-lifting days, move around a lot, walk, swim, play a team sport, take up dancing etc.

Post: #7

I made the transition from Strength to Bodybuilding training earlier this year.

Here's my program, not saying it's perfect but it works great for me and I had it critiqued by some of the guys on here.

Legs & Abs:
Squat 3x5
Calf Raise 3x10
Leg Press 3x8
Leg Curls 3x8
Bicycle Crunches 3 sets till exhaustion

Chest & Triceps:
Bench Press 3x5
Incline Bench Press 3x8 (wide grip)
Dips 3x10 (weight them once you can complete 3x10)
Lateral Raises 3x10
Bench Press again 2x8 (wide grip) on a lower weight for volume
Tricep Extensions 3x10 then a couple drop sets without rest

Back & Biceps:
Standing Overhead Press 3x8 (no space for it on Chest & Triceps day)
Deadlift 3x5
Pendlay Row 3x8
Wide Pull Ups 3x10 (weight them once you can complete 3x10)
Lat Pulldown 3x10
Preacher Curls 3x8 then a couple drop sets without rest

I always have at least 1 rest day in between and do 40-45 minutes of strenuous cycling on rest days. I eat 0.9-1g of protein per pound a day, with a higher calorie intake on lifting days and lower on rest days, I am very strict when it comes to consuming unneeded calories. The net effect is that on a week by week basis I am gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time. I see it as I'm "bulking" on lifting days and "cutting" on rest days.

Post: #8

That depends if you're natural or not. In order to put on solid quality mass as a natural trainer, you need to be training in all rep ranges, from 1RM all the way to 20+ bodybuilding style lifting. Now, you must continually look to progressively overload, in that you put weight on the bar every week.

Guys that want to get big without getting strong are idiots, and it cannot be done without pharmaceutical assistance.

Post: #9

(11-14-2014 06:55 PM)StrikeBack Wrote:  Starting Strength has poisoned newbie's mind so much that you all think strength equals lifting "heavy" (lol, SS isn't heavy) and eating like a fat fuck. Nobody doing serious powerlifting trains SS, because you get slow, weak and fat.

Sure, mass helps in gaining strength, but strength is ultimately a skill and mostly neuro-muscular in nature. Have you seen top weightlifters and powerlifters in regular weight classes and not the super heavies? They are ripped as hell.

Pictures here: guys not doing Slowing Strength by a fat Texan, ripped as fuck and lifting a ton of weights



Lu Xiaojun (170lb weight class) with a 260kg / 575lb paused high bar squat



Josh Hancott (163lb weight class) with a word junior record 271kg / 597lb deadlift

I find this post refreshing. Stronglifts was grueling on my legs but I constantly felt that the rest of my body was lagging behind, even doing the support exercises. Another thing I noticed is that I really wasn't looking any better even though my lifts were increasing. In fact I was eating so much I was getting a little man-boobish.

Since stopping Stronglifts, I've kept squats in my routine but don't do them every lift day. I still do big compound lifts (bench, pull-ups, pushups, etc) but also add in some isolation (triceps pushdowns, hammer curls) and my arms have been steadily growing. I also have been eating paleo/primal with heavy carbs on lift days, but just eating when I'm hungry (not stuffing myself). Doing all of these things has resulted in looking the best I have since prior to start Stronglifts.

Not saying Stronglifts isn't effective to achieve certain goals, but I think a mix of compound and isolation exercises are really what most guys need to gain some size.

Post: #10

Stronglifts is just a good way to get into training for most people;' a way for them to get strong enough, quick enough, to start feeling good.

Most guys would benefit switching to a bodybuilding programme after a couple of months on strong lifts in my opinion.

Post: #11

(11-14-2014 03:26 PM)Tactician Wrote:  Also, I think it makes your dick bigger, but don't quote me on that.

That's a helluva a lot to ask, Buddy.

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #12

My foot' been injured since 10/3. I'm slowly weaning off the brace, but I have been using all machines and only upper body naturally. When I get back to form, which of these programs has more emphasis on upper body, but enough on the legs to still have strength? Also I'd like to workout only 3 days a week and not spend 3 hours each time.

Post: #13

@ Strikeback: You obviously have a lot of experience with powerlifting and know a lot more about this than me (I've only been training for 15 months) but some things you're saying make it sound to me as if you might be going too far with your dislike of Starting Strength / Rippetoe. I do know of some competitive powerlifters who are ripped and not fat who did his program in the past. Obviously, by the time they are lifting competitive weights they have moved on to Texas Method or 5/3/1 or something else and spent some time cutting... Now to be fair to Rip he wasn't always as fat as he is now and he looked pretty jacked when he was younger. Now he's older and has had some injuries. He admits that he likes to eat and drink and doesn't care what he looks like anymore. Now that being said, there are a lot of guys on the SS boards (maybe the majority, I don't know) who just never lean out, just keep getting big (both muscle and fat), and I don't want to become one of them, so that's why I started this thread. Also, there is a culture in powerlifting which looks down upon training for physique/looks as "ghey" and you'll find a lot of that kind of thing on his forums...

I will say that SS may possibly be the wrong choice for skinny fat guys who are not in a hurry to play football. If I did it over again, I would have spent time on some kind of cutting program before starting to bulk up. His program doesn't take that into account because it's more about getting strong and "big" in time for high school football tryouts or whatever.

(Now there also is the other "extreme" as well...Because you'll see that if you go on the Lyle Mcdonald forums you'll find people obsessed with low body fat. Super skinny dudes getting props for achieving their "8-pack" but they are as thin as a twig.)

I'm looking for some kind of balance. I gained about 35 lbs last year. I've since lost about 5 and would like to lose another 20.

I don't think at this point I'll be doing linear progression on a caloric deficit...maybe something like 5/3/1 but with a few bodybuilding accessories thrown in?

The idea of training across different rep ranges besides 5 reps all the time sounds like it could be a smart one.

Post: #14

(11-14-2014 01:19 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  I need to lose some fat

This is really the core issue here.

You know how to workout and lift weights

Your diet is what must change.

===

If you are carrying too much fat, than you are:

A) Eating too many calories
B) Eating much low quality food (processed food, etc.)
C) Eating too much, in general.
D) Too many carbs

E) All of the above.

Decrease your carbs and lower you daily caloric intake, but, continue to work out hard. If you get hungry, fuel up on only proteins (meat, nuts, beans) and fruits and vegetables.

Basically, you should start getting less of your total calories from carbs.

Your diet should be more protein and plant based.

Experiment with going to bed on a slightly empty stomach.

Experiment with some fasting.

===

Now, lets talk at your physique.

You probably have big muscles.

You issue is probably body fat and belly fat.

These problems are best handled in the kitchen. So, I must go back to your diet..

Again, start with less carbs.

Maybe, reduce your fat intake a little. (If you eat a lot of fat everyday)

Strive for quality fats over low quality fats. (Animal fat, avocados, nuts, etc. are superior to processed fats)

Strive for quality carbs over low quality carbs. (oats, grain, yams, rice, etc are superior to white bread, processed carbs, etc.)

===

I don't think you have to change your workouts very much. Just keep lifting with intensity.

===

As you begin to shed fat, you can examine your body to see how it can be shaped more symmetrically.

At this point, keep working out hard and when you're hungry, fuel up with whole, natural, clean food sources.

More home cooked meals, less eating out.

Post: #15

You can train exactly the same way and just get leaner to avoid the "puffy powerlifter look". If you want to look more aesthetic just get lean and hit upper body with much more volume, specifically shoulders, traps, and arms.

Post: #16

I recently made the shift from "strength training" to "physique training".

For most of my life, I trained specifically for sports.

I didn't care about looks, I only cared about performance.

I no longer play any sports competitively, so, my focus have shifted to just having a good body.

===

I got naked and stood in front of a large mirror:

- My lower body was a lot larger than my upper body. My legs were huge compared to my arms.

- My chest was under developed

- My hips were under developed.

- My belly had excess fat.

I focused on these areas specifically.

Twice a week, I only do chest. I researched and experimented with many chest workouts. I put more time and effort into my chest.

Twice a week, I only do hips and lower back. I researched and experimented with many hip/lower back workouts. I put more time and effort into them.

I don't do much for my calves and thighs, I don't need to.

I don't do much for building stomach muscle, I don't need to.

As far as my belly, I learned to eat better.

===

For me, it was basically about identifying which parts of my body needed more attention.

More intensity with chest and hips.

Better nutrition to control my belly.

That is what my physique needed.

Post: #17

There's a blog dedicated to exactly this idea.


http://fitnessblackbook.com/

Post: #18

@Rex

Yeah perhaps I'm exaggerating my dislike of Starting Strength (I'd throw Stronglift in the same boat) a bit to make a point. But I'm just sick of seeing that routine thrown around on the Internet as if it is the Strength Training Bible. Many of you guys do not know the stories behind all that, so you think my dislike goes a bit too far.

Let me tackle one first: a lot of you now have this belief that "Strength training" and "Physique training" are different things. Why is that? Did you know that originally, in the golden age of physical culture, bodybuilders, weightlifters, strongmen etc. were all the same people called... lifters? Strength was physique and physique was strength. What changed it? The biggest one was obviously steroids. I won't get into that here as it's not relevant. The second biggest one - in the sport of powerlifting - was the rise of supportive equipments. The equipments started to get so good that maxing out your lean body mass doesn't matter as much as overall mass i.e fat fucks do better than lean athletes. This is why you get all those permabulk fatties including the Starting Strength fans (the latter just don't lift much weights).

The recent rise of raw lifting has changed all of that and gone back to the origins of physical culture. To be competitive in your weight class (super heavies excepted), you need to max out your lean body mass and that means low body fat percentage. Muscular balances also matter. That means, an elite raw powerlifter is now the same as a bodybuilder and if you look around, this is very true. Exhibit A: Layne Norton is both a competitive natural bodybuilder and the current USAPL 93kg (202lb?) class champion. There's an entire IPF powerlifting channel on YouTube full of their recent raw world championships. You'll see every top guy there (again minus the superheavies) is very lean and ready to pose on stage.

Quote: Also, there is a culture in powerlifting which looks down upon training for physique/looks as "ghey" and you'll find a lot of that kind of thing on his forums...

Such culture only exists on SS forums. Not in actual powerlifting clubs - mine just ran a bodybuilding contest and I competed for fun! Starting Strength forum people are not powerlifters, or maybe they do powerlifting but they are very weak. You know that strength standard chart on their website, yeah? Yeah, it's rubbish. The elite (Cat V) total on their site basically just qualifies you to attend the USAPL raw nationals and probably places dead last out of 15-20 lifters in the weight class.

Quote:I'm looking for some kind of balance. I gained about 35 lbs last year. I've since lost about 5 and would like to lose another 20.

I don't think at this point I'll be doing linear progression on a caloric deficit...maybe something like 5/3/1 but with a few bodybuilding accessories thrown in?

The idea of training across different rep ranges besides 5 reps all the time sounds like it could be a smart one.

Have you heard of periodisation? This is a very basic programming concept for powerlifting and weightlifting. The idea is that you have X weeks (typically 10-12) until the next competition, and you program your training so that you get gradually stronger over the cycle then peak at the end for the competition date. Typically you have different phases in this cycle, and the first one is always hypertrophy with higher reps. Pretty much all powerlifters know this.

What few powerlifters do is to periodise their lean body mass / bodyfat percentage in the same manner. The first to really research it that I know of was Mauro Di Pasquale, a powerlifting world champion and bodybuilding author. You can easily search for his work, but I'll give you a brief overview:

Instead of perma-bulking (and becoming a fatty mcfat) or perma-cutting (losing all your strength gainz) you periodise your diets to coincide with your training.

This means you look at the term and plan accordingly. You want to lose the fats, gain the muscle mass AND keep that new body composition. But you do this over multiple cycles, not every week. And you track BF%, not just weight (unless you have a weight class to worry about).

I've used this strategy to go down 2 weight classes since I started powerlifting, gain LBM, lose BF% and get a lot stronger.

As for your training, there's no such thing as "bodybuilding accessories" - they're just lifting accessories. Raw powerlifters need the same things bodybuilders do: big muscles and balanced physique. If you need them, you need them. You see Lu Xiaojun up there who squats 3.5xBW paused high bar? He does curls, tricep extensions and high reps dips at the end of his training sessions all the time, because weightlifters need strong arm muscles to support all that massive weight they throw overhead. Raw powerlifters do the same, so they can bench more. I probably work my arms harder than most gym bros, although I care more about what I can do with them in benching, than showing them off to other bros.

Wait, you don't see that in Starting Strength, do you? And the SS forum fanboys probably call that gay, right?

Post: #19

Good site here.

This article may be worth a read. It deals with your question exactly.

How to Progress from ‘The Big 3′ to Split Routines

Beyond All Seas

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.
To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes
frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Kipling

Post: #20

Ussplit training and hammer each bodypart with VOLUME.