Post: #1

I have no interest in this other than as a philosophical question, but the recent story of the American volunteer in Ukraine and the arrests of people heading to Syria has me wondering, when is this legal and when is it illegal? Is it just a matter of whether a country/armed group is on the State Department list as being a terrorist organization, etc.? Since we rarely declare war anymore, is there a list of official "enemy" states?

Post: #2

I know there is the axis of evil from George Bush's speech. Those countries currently included Syria, Iran, Iraq, North Korea, Libya, ad Cuba.

If you ask me though, we have been making more and more enemies over the past couple decades than genuinely doing any good. Egypt's revolution, the Islamic State, etc are just the beginning.

Post: #3

(08-26-2014 10:20 AM)RexImperator Wrote:  I have no interest in this other than as a philosophical question, but the recent story of the American volunteer in Ukraine and the arrests of people heading to Syria has me wondering, when is this legal and when is it illegal?

There is no such thing as legal or illegal, constitutional or unconstitutional etc. There are only guns, cages, things that make things go boom and people willing to use those things to get other things. Everything else is just PR.

Post: #4

Our wars are never legal, not for a long time. However there is no one to enforce international law on us.

The International Court of Justice is one body that punishes people for war crimes, but the U.S. withdrew from the ICJ after filling Nicaragua's harbors full of underwater mines under Reagan, which is a clear war crime.

Also, we are on the UN security council and can therefore stop any action by them against us in terms of war crimes. And no one really wants to get on our bad side.

But the U.S. invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan were both certainly illegal by international standards. Neither of those countries had done anything to us to justify a war. The people who attacked us on 9/11 were Saudis mostly and we invade Afghanistan and Iraq...

We bomb in just about any country we like. Currently we drone people in Pakistan without any consequences. They are a country we are allies with and we are blowing up civilians there hoping to get one or two terrorists but mainly killing civilians. We killed a U.S. citizen via drone strikes in Yemen without a trial...

There was talk in Canada about arresting Bush administration figures for war crimes, since we clearly have tortured people in clear violation of international law. Of course, Canada doesn't have the balls to do something like arrest Dick Cheney or Donald Rumsfeld.

All illegal, but it just shows that in international politics, might makes right.

Post: #5

This is probably most common with American Jews joining the Israel Defense Forces.

Initially, you might consider them traitors, and you'd be right in a technical sense. But it's not clearly a bad thing.

Typically, these men continue to live in Israel after their tour of duty, so they are putting their feet where their mouth is, unlike most Zionist American Jews who want to contort the US government into unflinching support for and subsidy of Israel.

Also, these men want to fight for a legitimate cause. They have grown up being told by their tribe and by their multiculturalist liberal society that national loyalties are obsolete. Being a patriotic American, and wanting to defend the historical American people is passe. There is no American people anyhow, in the liberal figuring, just a polyglot masses who find America an economically convenient place to live and a playground conducive to deviant dalliances. The conflicts in which Israel is engaged are far more pertinent to its very existence, than can be said of America and its sorties. The sense of defending one's legacy, one's tribe, is very real there.

It's ironic, because these young men are choosing to fight for Israel because the policies their parents have favored, namely war in Iraq, Iran and Syria, make fighting for the US a repulsive prospect.

Post: #6

I meant illegal with regards to US law.

For instance it's OK to join the French Foreign Legion, or the IDF in Israel.

I guess going to (Eastern) Ukraine is OK? What about western Ukraine? Are the rebels officially enemies of the US?

Clearly joining with IS will have the FBI show up at your (or your family's) door. You could be guilty of treason if whoever you join up with later ends up later fighting US special forces. (Remember that John Walker guy who joined the Taliban).

A lot of guys went over to Spain to fight against the fascists in the 1930's.

Post: #7

Lists are here:

http://www.state.gov/j/ct/list/

Post: #8

In theory, fighting for any foreign government is grounds for revocation of US citizenship.

In theory.

In practice, the US government selectively enforces this legal provision. If you are fighting for a state or organization that is useful for US policy, or is a member of the protected, sheltered class that can do no wrong, then they will praise you and love you. Those people get a pass. They get accolades heaped on them.

But if you happen to sign up with someone they don't like, then they will go after you.

I'll leave it up to the reader to decide which country belongs at the top of the list of protected, angelic little saints who can do no wrong. In reality, it is a country founded on and perpetuated by relentless violence and criminality.

Post: #9

(08-26-2014 11:22 AM)RexImperator Wrote:  I meant illegal with regards to US law.

For instance it's OK to join the French Foreign Legion, or the IDF in Israel.

Joining a foreign military, legally speaking, is grounds for losing your U.S. citizenship.

This includes the armies of allies.

However, the government does not enforce this law in certain cases, notably the IDF. It is striking to me that you could be willing to fight in the military of a foreign government, but not your own...

There is a similar law about U.S. government officials not being allowed to have dual-citizenship. The idea is you should be loyal first and only to the United States to serve in its government. Yet the same thing happens where this law is on the books, but not enforced. Notably, the mayor of Chicago, Rahm Emanuel, is an Israeli citizen.

Post: #10

America has been poking its nose in foreign wars for getting near a century now.

Post: #11

(08-26-2014 11:54 AM)AlreadyGone Wrote:  America has been poking its nose in foreign wars for getting near a century now.

Much longer really



At least if they're your neighbors it kinda makes sense!

Like look at Russia, when they want to invade a country, do they choose Angola or Indonesia? No, it's a neighbor at least. Have the decency to live next to the people you invade so you have to at least deal with their opinions of you.

Post: #12

You can't be stripped of your U.S. citizenship involuntarily, at least for things you do after you become a citizen.

Afroyim v. Rusk, 387 U.S. 253 (1967)

John Demjanjuk was stripped of his citizenship on the ground that the lied on his naturalization application about working for "the Nazi government of Germany."

(08-26-2014 11:31 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  There is a similar law about U.S. government officials not being allowed to have dual-citizenship. The idea is you should be loyal first and only to the United States to serve in its government. Yet the same thing happens where this law is on the books, but not enforced. Notably, the mayor of Chicago, Rahm Emanuel, is an Israeli citizen.

There is no such law. Many people in the US government are dual nationals. I know dual nationals with Top Secret clearances. Granted, they are citizens of friendly countries like Canada, the UK or Ireland, but there is no such law or rule.

Post: #13

(08-26-2014 02:22 PM)Sp5 Wrote:  You can't be stripped of your U.S. citizenship involuntarily, at least for things you do after you become a citizen.

Afroyim v. Rusk, 387 U.S. 253 (1967)

John Demjanjuk was stripped of his citizenship on the ground that the lied on his naturalization application about working for "the Nazi government of Germany."

(08-26-2014 11:31 AM)Sonsowey Wrote:  There is a similar law about U.S. government officials not being allowed to have dual-citizenship. The idea is you should be loyal first and only to the United States to serve in its government. Yet the same thing happens where this law is on the books, but not enforced. Notably, the mayor of Chicago, Rahm Emanuel, is an Israeli citizen.

There is no such law. Many people in the US government are dual nationals. I know dual nationals with Top Secret clearances. Granted, they are citizens of friendly countries like Canada, the UK or Ireland, but there is no such law or rule.

Interesting, I guess I heard wrong!

Post: #14

We call those people "too stupid to live". Good riddance.

Post: #15

(08-26-2014 11:54 AM)AlreadyGone Wrote:  America has been poking its nose in foreign wars for getting near a century now.

haha. Pretty much: America has either directly or indirectly (through subterfuge and selective intel sharing) caused every war going on right now. So theoretically if an American wants to fight in any war he should be able to.

Post: #16

Topical:

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me...story.html

Seems possible that one (subconscious) reason guys go to fight in these places is a search for a way to express their masculinity while feeling alienated by western culture.

Quote:On a Twitter account identified as belonging to McCain, he used the name Duale Khalid and wrote, “It’s Islam over everything.”

The person said he converted to Islam a decade ago: “I will never look back the best thing that ever happen to me,” reads one Twitter message.

The tweets display hostility toward gays, white people and Somali immigrants in San Diego. The messages praise Allah and smoking hookah.

Post: #17

"There is no such law. Many people in the US government are dual nationals. I know dual nationals with Top Secret clearances. Granted, they are citizens of friendly countries like Canada, the UK or Ireland, but there is no such law or rule."

Yes and no. You can't hold a clearance and a foreign passport. I know a man in the defense world who had duel US and Israeli citizenship, and got hassled so much about it that he renounced his Israeli citizenship. Also, if you were to APPLY for foreign citizenship, instead of passively getting it from your parents, then that would probably get your clearance revoked if you had one, and might prevent you from getting a future one.

Israel is a top espionage threat so things may be tougher for their nationals.

Post: #18

In WWI, the American rich formed an entire wing of the French air force, the Lafayette Escadrille.

America itself had the Marquis de Lafayette giving vital oversight during the Revolutionary War, so we tend to turn a blind eye to Americans joining to fight for our traditional allies of France and Britain --for instance, no American has been prosecuted for serving in the French Foreign Legion.

The issue is actually serving against, and even shooting at, USA armed forces. This will lose your citizenship. Although the War of 1812 with impressed US sailors forced to serve on British combat ships was a well understood exception.

Today, there are hundreds of thousands of Americans serving in PMCs, or Private Military Companies, in the Gulf States. There are multiple advantages to this arrangement of being an American Citizen serving in a PMC, including the famous Order 17.

Post: #19

(08-26-2014 10:20 AM)RexImperator Wrote:  I have no interest in this other than as a philosophical question, but the recent story of the American volunteer in Ukraine and the arrests of people heading to Syria has me wondering, when is this legal and when is it illegal? Is it just a matter of whether a country/armed group is on the State Department list as being a terrorist organization, etc.? Since we rarely declare war anymore, is there a list of official "enemy" states?

technically its illegal in all circumstances and the penalty i see in the United States Code is los one's citizenship. It seems selectively enforced though.

Post: #20

(08-27-2014 10:00 PM)Basil Ransom Wrote:  "There is no such law. Many people in the US government are dual nationals. I know dual nationals with Top Secret clearances. Granted, they are citizens of friendly countries like Canada, the UK or Ireland, but there is no such law or rule."

Yes and no. You can't hold a clearance and a foreign passport. I know a man in the defense world who had duel US and Israeli citizenship, and got hassled so much about it that he renounced his Israeli citizenship. Also, if you were to APPLY for foreign citizenship, instead of passively getting it from your parents, then that would probably get your clearance revoked if you had one, and might prevent you from getting a future one.

Israel is a top espionage threat so things may be tougher for their nationals.

Dual nationals with two passports go to security clearance adjudication. They may or may not be required to formally renounce their other citizenship to get a clearance. I know a guy who did not (second passport was UK) and was still given a TS. This was within the last two years. I've known others in DOD and DOS over the years.

The standard is apparent allegiance to a foreign country. Not only second passports are scrutinized, but foreign real estate, other investments, obviously wives. Of course the other country involved makes a difference, if their interests are about 95% aligned with the USA, it's not the same as a Russian or Chinese passport. the Israelis are under suspicion because of Pollard and other stuff.

Post: #21

What would happen if one fought for Estonia?

Post: #22

(09-19-2014 10:45 PM)puckerman Wrote:  What would happen if one fought for Estonia?

Lose? I can't see Estonia winning many match ups.

Post: #23

Americans have volunteered to fight for foreign armies for hundreds of years without repercussion. Most notably, the Spanish Civil War (Lincoln Battalion), WW1 (France, Britain), WW2 (Canada, France, Britain, China) and the various Israeli wars.

Lincoln Battalion in Spain:


If shit ever hits the fan here in Europe (Russia, ISIS, etc.), bet your ass I'd be helping out on behalf of US interests. Military experience goes a long way in volunteer units.