Post: #1

My first introduction to game was through David DeAngelo. He never referred to the Manosphere. The Game (book) does not mention anything about the Manosphere. I used to be into Mystery Method / Love Systems, they never mentioned the Manosphere. I checked out Simple Pickup - no mention of the Manosphere. Eventually I settled for RSD. Still no mention of the Manosphere anywhere.

In The Netherlands, where I'm at, RSD has a large influence. Most game guys I know are into RSD. This suggests to me that RSD is probably the largest commercial pick-up company at the moment. Their videos get tens of thousands of views on youtube - they never mention the Manosphere.

From my perspective, the Manosphere has a shitload of free and solid information. Rational Male is better at explaining theory than RSD Tyler. It is generally of benefit to anyone involved in game. But I don't hear the Manosphere discussing the commercial pick-up companies either. Not much mention of RSD, Simple Pickup, Love Systems or David DeAngelo. It's as if the Manosphere is completely separate from the commercial game outfits and they ignore eachother.

My question is why?

Based on the size of their facebook groups, the amount of subscribers to their youtube channels and the popularity of their forum, I'd estimate RSD has an active fanbase of 30,000 people. Simple Pickup maybe more, around 50,000. Sasha Daygame maybe 20,000. It makes me wonder what the size of the Manosphere might be. Larger? Smaller? Similar?

Considering the obvious overlap between Manosphere and PUA, considering how much value these two internet communities might have to offer to each other, why do they remain separate?

Post: #2

Probably because those companies would come off looking like spam if the tried posting here. The guy who runs love systems used to post here but he got banned for spamming I think. Anyone who is self-promoting should be careful not to overdue it here.

Post: #3

Why?

Because people don't want to be spammed and pestered 24/7 by salesmen who want them to buy their shit.

We want to relax, improve, share information, learn, and try to have some small effect on the popular culture.

That's why.

Post: #4

I was under the impression Manosphere hated women while commercial pua's don't, they just want to get laid. They certainly don't complain about things like feminism. Could be wrong on this though.

Post: #5

(08-22-2014 10:10 PM)Heathree Wrote:  They certainly don't complain about things like feminism. Could be wrong on this though.

They don't. It's bad for business and their mainstream appeal. Even for potential customers who aren't fans of feminism complaining about it too often can be a huge turn-off. The main company of pickup coaches in my city interestingly are elite players who are also very supportive of sex-positive feminism. It's surprising since they're very well traveled and also do yearly trips to Eastern Europe with clients. I think there's a genuine philosophical difference between them and say RVF. They value things like having open relationships with hot but promiscuous girls who are great in bed and see feminism in a positive light because of that. RSD and Simple Pickup as far as I'm aware have never said anything either way about feminism.

Post: #6

(08-22-2014 10:10 PM)Heathree Wrote:  I was under the impression Manosphere hated women while commercial pua's don't, they just want to get laid. They certainly don't complain about things like feminism. Could be wrong on this though.

We don't "hate women".

Post: #7

Complaining about feminism, while arguably not the best use of a man's time, is not at all the same thing as hating women.

Post: #8

Correct me if I am wrong but I don't see the Manosphere attempting to make money off of anything. Pick up artist tend to do this thing.

Post: #9

I do sense a schism growing in the manosphere between game guys and straight-up redpill/men's rights guys. It's more an attitude difference than an ideological one.

One group is the fun party guy type, the other group is the more serious-toned man.

Some guys don't want to read about how so much of the world sucks and they just want to get laid.

Other guys don't care about racking up notches or banging hot girls and would rather point out the problems that feminism brings about.

Post: #10

(08-22-2014 10:28 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

(08-22-2014 10:10 PM)Heathree Wrote:  I was under the impression Manosphere hated women while commercial pua's don't, they just want to get laid. They certainly don't complain about things like feminism. Could be wrong on this though.

We don't "hate women".

Guys in manosphere don't like the way women are acting, they don't necessarily hate women, although I'd bet there are probably a lot of guys in the manosphere that do hate women.

Post: #11

They're basically different branches on the same tree - although some will argue they have very few similarities.

Post: #12

Players are focussed directly on pussy and changing the self to get it.

Manosphere/redpill is about putting ideas out there that will influence society, and are trying to make it easier to get pussy that way.

Post: #13

soup, the goal of the manosphere and of places like this forum is to help men improve themselves and live better and more enjoyable lives in every way: being more successful with pussy, making money, living a healthier and more masculine lifestyle, and finding like-minded guys to share their thoughts and feelings with.

It has nothing to do with "hating women". But it involves understanding women and understanding their nature and character. It's better to know women for what they are, and enjoy them for what they are, than to either love or hate a figment of one's imagination.

The idea that men here "hate women" is a troll talking point and I don't think we should indulge it for a moment. Refusing to pedestalize pussy is not "hatred".

Post: #14

I first discovered game when a friend sent me a pdf of one of Mystery's books, the Venusian Arts. I read through it and thought it was pretty good so I went online to search for more resources and maybe order one of his other books. Pretty soon, I discovered Roissy (before he went away and Stormfront/Heartiste took over) and Roosh. They were high quality and mostly free, PUAs were of varying quality and expensive. So I went with the manospshere as the obviously better choice.

At that time I was only concerned with getting laid but I'm glad I delved into the manosphere because I learned a lot more than just how to get better at picking up chicks.

Post: #15

RSD helped me to find the manosphere. Tyler from RSD has some very deep videos about meditation and philosophy. He was my jumpstart to change my life. I do not watch the videos anymore, but without it I would be less of a person.

Ironically, I got much better with women reading Rollo and Heartiste than with RSD techniques.

Post: #16

-The mainstream PUAs make money from the Beta qualities of men.

For example, a lot of guys will go to RSD to learn how to finally ask their dream girl out on a date.

But on a redpill-focused forum like this, we would shame that same guy for his oneitis and teach him how to sleep with lots of women without tangling himself up in a messed up web of emotion.

***

The teachings of PUAs are limited (because the public just wants to get laid, that's where the PUAs get their profits so to them complaining about feminism and fat acceptance would be a waste of time because it's not reeling in the cash) .

Post: #17

The manosphere has more of a focus on improving aspects of your life which will make you a better man in wealth, health and relationships. PUAs focus on short term goals by lying to women, manipulating them and pretending to be something they're not.

Just my opinion, of course.

Post: #18

(08-23-2014 04:15 AM)MattC Wrote:  PUAs focus on short term goals by lying to women, manipulating them and pretending to be something they're not.

I PUA with success then.

Post: #19

(08-22-2014 09:33 PM)dtpilgrim Wrote:  ...

Considering the obvious overlap between Manosphere and PUA, considering how much value these two internet communities might have to offer to each other, why do they remain separate?

They interlap as much as is possible. Roosh did coachings, Krauser did so too and publishes cutting-edge Game literature. RSD and London Daygame.com put up plenty of good stuff online on a variety of topics - not only Game, but Feminism, Self-Improvement etc.

In my opinion there is no real conflict, though some guys consider paying to learn Game some kind of heresy. If you've got the money and wish to learn from experienced guys, why not?

Most of the Manosphere guys probably have something against faulty and stupid commercial PUAs, that actually impede most aspiring students.

Also commercial guys usually do not comment as much on free forums due to time constraints and also due to the fact that they are trying to make a living off their Game skills. Quite a few RVF guys will be putting down knowledge for free which some professional PUAs charge money for. So there is a bit of a information conflict going on, but frankly I don't see it that way.

If you want to publish Game theory, then you have to do extensive ground-breaking stuff or cover new topics, so that added value is there. Bootcamps and individual coaching will always be useful, since you can either turbocharge your learning process, you can do it faster than by doing approaches on your own (at least in the beginning) or you are at an Omega-level so far off that just reading about Game & doing approaches on your own is not enough to land you in pussy-paradise.

Also even looking at RSD or Daygame.com you see that even the commercial PUAs have expanded their scope beyond teaching you just to get laid as they cover different topics along their own personal development. If the only thing you care about is getting notches after 20 years in the Game, then you are some sad sap indeed.

Post: #20

(08-22-2014 10:23 PM)Deluge Wrote:  They value things like having open relationships with hot but promiscuous girls who are great in bed and see feminism in a positive light because of that.

This exactly is what makes me perceive some of them (Dan Savage comes to mind) as parasites. While I do like open relationships with hot girls who are great in bed, I'm always aware that for every guy like me there are dozens of others suffering in involuntary celibacy. So even though feminism has ended up being good for me, I would never promote it because it would amplify the pain for everyone else.

That said, it's correct that most major PUA companies usually just stay silent on these topics - they don't promote it either (as far as I know).

Post: #21

There is a divide between these two broad fields, but essentially the goals of both are the same: to improve one's chances of getting laid.

PUA-style game (e.g. RSD) is focussed on improving conversational skills in order to get better in talking to girls during daygame/nightgame.

The guys who are more manosphere oriented (and certainly the active members here on RVF) are more focussed on how to increase one's overall value relative to the place and situation they are living in. This includes things like improving health/fitness, starting a business, learning languages, and travelling to places where our relative value is increased.

I personally think that it is pointless studying "game" to the extent of which the RSD guys do, because you quickly reach a point where you are no longer increasing or real or perceived value anymore.

Post: #22

(08-22-2014 09:33 PM)dtpilgrim Wrote:  My first introduction to game was through David DeAngelo. He never referred to the Manosphere. The Game (book) does not mention anything about the Manosphere. I used to be into Mystery Method / Love Systems, they never mentioned the Manosphere. I checked out Simple Pickup - no mention of the Manosphere. Eventually I settled for RSD. Still no mention of the Manosphere anywhere.

It might help to realize that what's currently known as the manosphere didn't really exist as late as 2007 and the term itself didn't become popular until relatively recently. Mystery and David DeAngelo were doing pickup stuff earlier. The Game was published in 2005 I believe, Roosh was just starting DC Bachelor then and Roissy hadn't started at all.

Quote:In The Netherlands, where I'm at, RSD has a large influence. Most game guys I know are into RSD. This suggests to me that RSD is probably the largest commercial pick-up company at the moment. Their videos get tens of thousands of views on youtube - they never mention the Manosphere.

It's probably of minimal benefit to them to associate with what has, to date, been an informal collection of blogs. I suspect it's partly a desire for branding coherence and partly just competition.

Quote:But I don't hear the Manosphere discussing the commercial pick-up companies either. Not much mention of RSD, Simple Pickup, Love Systems or David DeAngelo. It's as if the Manosphere is completely separate from the commercial game outfits and they ignore eachother.

There's some overlap. Heartiste, in particular, tends reference commercial pickup artists periodically. He's definitely mentioned Krauser, Tyler, Mystery, and David DeAngelo. And checking out Krauser's blog, he talks about the manosphere in a recent post: 5 Mindsets that show you don't get it [secret society]

Quote:Considering the obvious overlap between Manosphere and PUA, considering how much value these two internet communities might have to offer to each other, why do they remain separate?

In general, you'll notice that the "manosphere" writers tend to write about numerous topics apart from pickup, and their pickup material itself tends to be plain-language and sensible. The manosphere seems interested in the truth for its own sake, not just for its usefulness in getting laid. Commercial pickup I think appeals more to men who like the idea of being a "ninja of womanizing," a man with secret skills for bedding HB9s. Also to men who aren't turned off by cheesy over-the-top marketing that is certain to over-promise and under-deliver.

Post: #23

Don't forget that this forum is part of Roosh's business. It's not a publicly funded space. It makes sense that he wouldn't want other guys coming on here promoting their stuff. There are limits to what this forum can handle, but that can be a good thing sometimes. There can be a lot of focus in limits.

Post: #24

(08-23-2014 05:08 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  While I do like open relationships with hot girls who are great in bed, I'm always aware that for every guy like me there are dozens of others suffering in involuntary celibacy. So even though feminism has ended up being good for me, I would never promote it because it would amplify the pain for everyone else.

Some people take the view outlined by Michel Houellebecq in his novel Whatever, "that the sexual revolution of the Sixties created not communism but capitalism in the sexual market, that the unattractive underclass is exiled while the privileged initiates are drained by corruption, sloth, and excess." We have been moving towards more and more liberalized economies and sexual norms over the last few decades. Some people take a libertarian view of Houellebecq's position, and argue that the relatively sexless masses of men deserve to be that way because they can't compete in the current unrestricted sexual market. Personally I'm not sure either way.

If you can't change the culture, the only thing left to do is to focus on lifting up yourself and those who are open to doing so as well. Thankfully sex is different then wealth, if you have access to RVF and are willing to put the work in it's easy to join the top few % of men unless you're ugly or very short.

Post: #25

What annoys me is that all the commercial companies are trying to reinvent the wheel by themselves. It took RSD maybe 7 years before they realized "hey maybe you should increase your value as a person as a whole instead of just continuous cold approaching". Then to their credit they did start preaching it.

Most commercial operations offering bootcamps are all trying to invent the atom bomb separately, so to speak. But frankly, the self-improvement branch of the manosphere is more robust and thorough than anything the PUA companies have tried to concoct. If the PUA companies were to outsource their philosophy/self-improvement branch to the manosphere it'd be of a far higher quality.

I just wonder how many of the pick-up "ceo's" are aware of the manosphere and deliberately ignoring it to the detriment of their customers.