Post: #1

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28785054

Can you ever truly come to terms with desperately wanting a child, but never having one?

It's a simple question that is deceptively difficult to answer. It's one my husband and I have asked ourselves, as we've struggled to start a family of our own.

And we are far from alone. It's thought one in four women born in the 1970s will reach 45 without giving birth. For those born in the 1960s that figure is already running at one in five. The vast majority are childless through circumstance, rather than choice.

Even so we hear very little from them.

Theatre executive Jessica Hepburn is 43 and has been trying to have a baby for nine years with her partner, Peter. "It's like a bruise," says Jessica about the emotional impact of failing to have a biological child, "whenever you press it, it hurts. I often wonder what our kids would have looked like - Peter's hair, my eyes? I always imagined motherhood would be part of my life. Creating a child with the person you love - it's a very natural, strong desire for me."

It's one Jody Day, who began trying for a baby with her husband when she was 29, also felt. "At the time, I dedicated everything to having a family. At no point did the idea that it wouldn't happen, come to me." Now aged 49, she says time has helped her cope with the grief of not conceiving. "People come to me and they say, can you get over childlessness? And I say, it's not the flu - it's a lifelong thing. I am happy now, but, not having children broke my heart. No doubt about it, it broke my heart."

The stress of trying and failing to have a child led Jody into a bout of depression. "There was one day that I lay on the floor of my flat and thought, I will stand up when I can think of a compelling reason to do so. I kept asking myself 'what is the point of my existence?' I had to go very deep to find a reason to carry on."
Jessica Hepburn has had 11 rounds of IVF
Jessica, whose infertility is unexplained, chose to undergo 11 rounds of gruelling IVF treatment, at a cost of £70,000. She has only recently paid off the debt.

She chose not to tell her friends and family everything she was going through, including a life threatening ectopic pregnancy and several miscarriages.

"I kept it absolutely away from my colleagues and I would go and have egg collection very early in the morning and be back at my desk by 10am. My ectopic pregnancy was discovered at three months and even though I was rushed to hospital, no one knew the full story. I also had a miscarriage at nine weeks and several biochemical pregnancies, which are very early miscarriages, and then of course a few unsuccessful rounds of IVF as well. Because we always felt so close, I couldn't give up."

Jessica says that along with the disappointment, she also felt ashamed about what was happening to her. "I think shame is a massive factor in not being able to have a child - feeling just so desperately that you want to be like everybody else, but somehow you're not, and feeling ashamed that you can't do what everybody else does. You're hiding the fact that you're disappointed that your life hasn't worked out how you hoped."

For women like Jessica, coping with a sense of loss can, albeit unwittingly, be made worse by the reaction of others - inviting the empathy while eschewing pity, there's a difficult balance to strike and it has the potential to strain close relationships.
Jody Day founded Gateway Women for childless women
Jody Day's marriage eventually broke down and by the time she had recovered from depression she realised her circle of friends - who'd got pregnant with ease - had moved in another direction. "My contemporaries were all having children. I think that's when it started to get difficult. Because I realised that I had become a sort of social pariah as a single childless woman.

"And it was a dawning realisation that I just wasn't getting invited anywhere anymore. Our lives had taken very different paths. It's very hard to accept that. There's so much unspoken stuff here. It's a taboo to talk about it. And I think it's really, really hard to admit."

Embedded in the English language are a plethora of offensive labels: Barren, selfish, spinster, career woman (we never use career man).

After her divorce Jody dated other men, but by 43 she experienced early menopause. She says it was that biological change that helped her to come to terms with her childlessness, "I've done the journey of wanting to be a mother. I've come out the other side of it. I'm post-menopausal now and goddess oestrogen has left the building. I don't crave a baby any more - that part of my life is over."
■The age of mothers has been rising since 1975 in England and Wales, according to the ONS
■Possible factors mentioned by the ONS include: increasing importance of a career, instability of partnerships and labour market uncertainty
■Fertility rate for women aged 40 or over has nearly trebled since 1991
■The average age of a mother in England and Wales was 30.0 years old in 2013. In Scotland the latest figure was 29.7 and in Northern Ireland it was 30.1, both for 2012

Reaching this point has given Jody a sense of freedom, and the time to carve out a new identity. She has three masters degrees and is training to be a counsellor - specialising in adolescent and child psychology.

Yet she still meets people who struggle to know how to react to her situation. ''Often people get focused on the idea that we've chosen this in some way or that we just haven't done the right thing - and get stuck for what to say.

"The very first time was when I was still married and still trying to conceive. I was at a cocktail party when a woman comes over to me and says, 'so you know, if you don't manage to get pregnant, would you consider adopting?' And I was just taken aback and I replied 'No... I... I don't think so'. We were suddenly in this incredibly intimate conversation, without warning, and she looked at me and said 'but then you obviously don't really want children then' and walked off. "

In her chatroom, Jody says, women describe these all too frequent - and entirely inappropriate - reactions as "bingos".
'All the childless women I know feel very self-conscious about it,' says Paula Coston
The suggestion that people who fail to have biological children should automatically choose adoption as a substitute is at best unthinking and at worst reckless. Experts often advise that parenting adopted children is a rewarding and sometimes challenging experience that potential adopters should think about carefully and commit to fully. The process is rigorous and emotionally challenging and is a unique path to parenthood in its own right.

Novelist Paula Coston, 59, had a high-flying career in publishing, when offices still resembled an episode of Mad Men. Her life brimmed with glamorous parties and exotic travel - but not the right man with whom to start a family. She's now experiencing the isolation that Jody describes, a second time around,

"My friends are at that stage now where their children are about to have a child or certainly thinking about it and so I'm bracing myself for this new sort of wave of the experience to come over me really."

Her life is busy with work, family and friends, but she worries that the difficult emotions she dealt with years ago may bubble up again. "I have a feeling that I will feel yet more distance from the people I know who are becoming grandparents. I will not only not be able to relate to them as parents but I will not be able to relate to them as grandparents either. I will be aware, I think, that there's a bit more distance between me and that whole side of family life."

As a single, childless, older woman, in some ways Paula gets a particularly raw deal - sidelined for failing to snag a partner, failing to have children and then daring to age.

Paula argues that, society as a whole, tends to neglect childless women - and to its cost. "As a group we are increasingly cut off and underused," says Paula. "Where are the mentoring schemes, how can we hand down our skills, why aren't our opinions about children's futures taken into consideration?

"We have great life experience and empathy that could really benefit others. I know I'd love to pass on my skills."

===============
"why aren't our opinions about children's futures taken into consideration?"
The arrogance in that statement is just astounding. What makes her think any of her opinions in other peoples children matter at all??

I also grinned at the one who had three masters degrees, that being childless has given her a 'sense of freedom'.

I clasp my hands in glee, for there is no more fitting result than the termination of their genetic line. Its a feature of feminism - these women will fail to pass on their genes and their feminist and career shrike philosophy to the next generation. It literally ends with them. Sometimes I worry about the future, the fall of civilisation. Things like this give me a glimmer of hope.

Post: #2

"As a single, childless, older woman, in some ways Paula gets a particularly raw deal - sidelined for failing to snag a partner, failing to have children and then daring to age. "

Gets? She did to herself. She had the option, even lived a glamorous lifestyle, but couldn't settle down with something in her own league.

"Paula argues that, society as a whole, tends to neglect childless women - and to its cost. "As a group we are increasingly cut off and underused," says Paula. "Where are the mentoring schemes, how can we hand down our skills, why aren't our opinions about children's futures taken into consideration? "

Because you failed in worst way possible, and it would be dangerous to expose children to you.

Post: #3

Some of the women wanted and tried to have children but failed to conceive and are unhappy about the situation. You do feel sorry for these women and their partner but such is life.

Post: #4

(08-15-2014 06:46 PM)Heathree Wrote:  Some of the women wanted and tried to have children but failed to conceive and are unhappy about the situation. You do feel sorry for these women and their partner but such is life.

I'm with you Heathree, that's a pain that no man can feel.

Good luck to them.

Post: #5

Quote:Reaching this point has given Jody a sense of freedom, and the time to carve out a new identity. She has three masters degrees and is training to be a counsellor - specialising in adolescent and child psychology.

Quote:Paula argues that, society as a whole, tends to neglect childless women - and to its cost. "As a group we are increasingly cut off and underused," says Paula. "Where are the mentoring schemes, how can we hand down our skills, why aren't our opinions about children's futures taken into consideration?

The reason why these women are "neglected" is because people rightfully assume that they have no valuable insights aside from riding the cock carousel and squandering their mother years on some meaningless career for baubles and "exotic" travel.

Post: #6

This is why I'm glad I'm a man. There is no deadline. You can have a kid at 85 years old I'd you want.

But I feel sorry for these women. Their whole lives they've been fed this Bill of goods to focus on their careers and put family later, and at age 40 they realize their huge mistake. It's sad, really. Women have one essential job in life and that is to basically make more people, and these women have to cope with total failure essentially at life. More and more of these articles and stories are going to come out and I think we'll start to see this trend reverse in the next 10 years or so.

Come to think of it do you guys ever see feminists that are really active that are over ~40? I think once most crazy feminists have children they realize that it's not some oppressive patriarchal thing, but rather their destined role in life. Thoughts on that last part?

Post: #7

Quote:Novelist Paula Coston, 59, had a high-flying career in publishing, when offices still resembled an episode of Mad Men. Her life brimmed with glamorous parties and exotic travel - but not the right man with whom to start a family. She's now experiencing the isolation that Jody describes, a second time around

She rode the cock carousel got used up and now noone wants her.

Post: #8

(08-15-2014 07:15 PM)kaotic Wrote:  

Quote:Novelist Paula Coston, 59, had a high-flying career in publishing, when offices still resembled an episode of Mad Men. Her life brimmed with glamorous parties and exotic travel - but not the right man with whom to start a family. She's now experiencing the isolation that Jody describes, a second time around

She rode the cock carousel got used up and now noone wants her.

I was curious as to what this "novelist" has written in her life.

http://www.amazon.com/Far-Side-Theres-Bo...478&sr=1-1

Quote:Martine Haslett feels fine: happy and fine. A sensual, thirty-something 1980s London woman, she plays hard on the fringes of the drag club scene, works hard and dates hard. Then one particular night with a new man prompts her to sign up to a charity and write to a young Sri Lankan boy, with consequences far and long.

Surprise surprise.

It's essentially an autobiography that takes tidbits from her young carousel riding partying days and rolls it into some tearjerker about adopting a poor third world boy. This is exactly the type of mindless drivel that appeals to aging cat ladies who missed out on real life and is now "finding" herself through some liberal savior fantasy.

This also appears to be the only book she has written which means she was most likely an editor or worked as a publisher. In otherwords, a worthless talentless intermediary who lived off other people's creativity. She decided to shit out one novel so she could attach "author" to her name.

Post: #9

I couldn't even get halfway through that pity party before I had to tune out, but I did smile when I saw the acronym ONS being used.

Post: #10

Several surveys measuring happiness are reaching the conclusion that we all know true in our hearts that for women having children is a major source of happiness and the stereotype of the sad, depressed spinster is very much a reality.

One study cited in psychology today found that the unhappiest demographic of people was:

Quote: Female
42 years old
Unmarried (and no children)
Household income under $100,000
In a professional position (doctor, lawyer, etc.)

Also in one the few studies done to measure happiness and parenting it came to some interesting conclusions. The study found:

Quote:when asked to rate how happy they were with their lives in general there was a gender divide. Mothers were happier overall than any other group, while childless women were the least happy. By contrast men with children emerged slightly less happy than those without.

As Switch brought up men can delay fatherhood and as the above evidence suggests are not significantly happier or unhappier by becoming a parent. This is in stark contrast to women as the stakes are much larger because of the limited window of fertility and how much motherhood seems to correlate to increasing a woman's happiness.

Post: #11

(08-15-2014 06:54 PM)Switch Wrote:  This is why I'm glad I'm a man. There is no deadline. You can have a kid at 85 years old I'd you want.

But I feel sorry for these women. Their whole lives they've been fed this Bill of goods to focus on their careers and put family later, and at age 40 they realize their huge mistake. It's sad, really. Women have one essential job in life and that is to basically make more people, and these women have to cope with total failure essentially at life. More and more of these articles and stories are going to come out and I think we'll start to see this trend reverse in the next 10 years or so.

Come to think of it do you guys ever see feminists that are really active that are over ~40? I think once most crazy feminists have children they realize that it's not some oppressive patriarchal thing, but rather their destined role in life. Thoughts on that last part?

First, it's been said the quality of sperm does decrease with age, but I don't think it's a proven fact. Might be just fear-mongering planted by the feminist agenda.

My opinion on your last question, is it's been my experience old school feminists, like my Mother and the Mothers of women I've dated, do not mellow out at all. In fact they get worse, but they are old school and I can't imagine it's gotten any better.

Post: #12

The audacity and arrogance in these womens' statements is astounding but not surprising. I do feel a bit of pity from them because they were told to follow this lifestyle and sold on the idea that emulating men would be fulfilling, but ultimately it was their own decision and to say that opportunities to start a family with good men never came to them would frankly be a lie, they just never wanted to settle in their 20s less miss out on the exotic parties and never get to have be CEO or have the third masters degree. So I don't feel a whole lot of pity.

Also what knowledge and skills do they have to pass on? A Masters in Child psychology, seriously! She has no children of her own and only knows the (liberal)text book psychology of a child ("gender is a fluid concept, children should have freedom and not be chastised for their mistakes blah blah blah"). Secondly if she thinks that having her successful career makes her qualified to teach young girls that putting careers over family is fulfilling she is an utter hypocrite.

These ladies deserve to live with their cats, sugar gliders, dogs or whatever else serves as a surrogate baby these days.

I gleefully deem them now "invisible women".

Post: #13

(08-15-2014 07:47 PM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

(08-15-2014 07:15 PM)kaotic Wrote:  

Quote:Novelist Paula Coston, 59, had a high-flying career in publishing, when offices still resembled an episode of Mad Men. Her life brimmed with glamorous parties and exotic travel - but not the right man with whom to start a family. She's now experiencing the isolation that Jody describes, a second time around

She rode the cock carousel got used up and now noone wants her.

I was curious as to what this "novelist" has written in her life.

http://www.amazon.com/Far-Side-Theres-Bo...478&sr=1-1

Quote:Martine Haslett feels fine: happy and fine. A sensual, thirty-something 1980s London woman, she plays hard on the fringes of the drag club scene, works hard and dates hard. Then one particular night with a new man prompts her to sign up to a charity and write to a young Sri Lankan boy, with consequences far and long.

Surprise surprise.

It's essentially an autobiography that takes tidbits from her young carousel riding partying days and rolls it into some tearjerker about adopting a poor third world boy. This is exactly the type of mindless drivel that appeals to aging cat ladies who missed out on real life and is now "finding" herself through some liberal savior fantasy.

This also appears to be the only book she has written which means she was most likely an editor or worked as a publisher. In otherwords, a worthless talentless intermediary who lived off other people's creativity. She decided to shit out one novel so she could attach "author" to her name.

Don't worry, she probably extorted someone under her publishing company to ghost write it for her. Or at least the drudgery parts of it, she had better things to do.

Post: #14

Thread title made me think this was about black guys running game on desperate cougars

Post: #15

(08-15-2014 09:27 PM)DarkTriad Wrote:  

(08-15-2014 07:47 PM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

(08-15-2014 07:15 PM)kaotic Wrote:  

Quote:Novelist Paula Coston, 59, had a high-flying career in publishing, when offices still resembled an episode of Mad Men. Her life brimmed with glamorous parties and exotic travel - but not the right man with whom to start a family. She's now experiencing the isolation that Jody describes, a second time around

She rode the cock carousel got used up and now noone wants her.

I was curious as to what this "novelist" has written in her life.

http://www.amazon.com/Far-Side-Theres-Bo...478&sr=1-1

Quote:Martine Haslett feels fine: happy and fine. A sensual, thirty-something 1980s London woman, she plays hard on the fringes of the drag club scene, works hard and dates hard. Then one particular night with a new man prompts her to sign up to a charity and write to a young Sri Lankan boy, with consequences far and long.

Surprise surprise.

It's essentially an autobiography that takes tidbits from her young carousel riding partying days and rolls it into some tearjerker about adopting a poor third world boy. This is exactly the type of mindless drivel that appeals to aging cat ladies who missed out on real life and is now "finding" herself through some liberal savior fantasy.

This also appears to be the only book she has written which means she was most likely an editor or worked as a publisher. In otherwords, a worthless talentless intermediary who lived off other people's creativity. She decided to shit out one novel so she could attach "author" to her name.

Don't worry, she probably extorted someone under her publishing company to ghost write it for her. Or at least the drudgery parts of it, she had better things to do.

"It's essentially an autobiography that takes tidbits from her young carousel riding partying days and rolls it into some tearjerker about adopting a poor third world boy."

You know what would be an original twist on this cliche? An article or book about single women who adopt Third World boys to "grow their own boyfriends," so they can raise the man they want and have him captive for life.

Laugh or say I'm twisted, but I see this coming 'round the bend in some form. This might be a good dystopian novel idea.

Post: #16

(08-15-2014 11:03 PM)Days of Broken Arrows Wrote:  

(08-15-2014 09:27 PM)DarkTriad Wrote:  

(08-15-2014 07:47 PM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

(08-15-2014 07:15 PM)kaotic Wrote:  

Quote:Novelist Paula Coston, 59, had a high-flying career in publishing, when offices still resembled an episode of Mad Men. Her life brimmed with glamorous parties and exotic travel - but not the right man with whom to start a family. She's now experiencing the isolation that Jody describes, a second time around

She rode the cock carousel got used up and now noone wants her.

I was curious as to what this "novelist" has written in her life.

http://www.amazon.com/Far-Side-Theres-Bo...478&sr=1-1

Quote:Martine Haslett feels fine: happy and fine. A sensual, thirty-something 1980s London woman, she plays hard on the fringes of the drag club scene, works hard and dates hard. Then one particular night with a new man prompts her to sign up to a charity and write to a young Sri Lankan boy, with consequences far and long.

Surprise surprise.

It's essentially an autobiography that takes tidbits from her young carousel riding partying days and rolls it into some tearjerker about adopting a poor third world boy. This is exactly the type of mindless drivel that appeals to aging cat ladies who missed out on real life and is now "finding" herself through some liberal savior fantasy.

This also appears to be the only book she has written which means she was most likely an editor or worked as a publisher. In otherwords, a worthless talentless intermediary who lived off other people's creativity. She decided to shit out one novel so she could attach "author" to her name.

Don't worry, she probably extorted someone under her publishing company to ghost write it for her. Or at least the drudgery parts of it, she had better things to do.

"It's essentially an autobiography that takes tidbits from her young carousel riding partying days and rolls it into some tearjerker about adopting a poor third world boy."

You know what would be an original twist on this cliche? An article or book about single women who adopt Third World boys to "grow their own boyfriends," so they can raise the man they want and have him captive for life.

Laugh or say I'm twisted, but I see this coming 'round the bend in some form. This might be a good dystopian novel idea.

I think this idea has legs.

It may be even better with a sci-fi twist.

A quaint tale about a wealthy careerist old biddy who grows mandingos from test tubes so she can have a lifetime stable of boy sausage instead of cats.

A Lolita for the modern independent womyn.

Post: #17

I they could get into mentorship young people and big sister programs all over the place, but nooooo, that won't make them haaaapppyyyy like having a baby. Too late ladies, you missed the boat.

Learning to age with dignity and grace over your life choices should be on the menu for them.

Post: #18

(08-15-2014 06:20 PM)boywonder34 Wrote:  I clasp my hands in glee, for there is no more fitting result than the termination of their genetic line. Its a feature of feminism - these women will fail to pass on their genes and their feminist and career shrike philosophy to the next generation. It literally ends with them. Sometimes I worry about the future, the fall of civilisation. Things like this give me a glimmer of hope.

I sincerely hope you're right, but I don't think it's that simple. Each of these people, through their jobs (as academics, teachers, bureaucrats, media workers, etc.), can have untold influence on the rest of society, and specifically young minds. If conservatives out-breed liberals, and specifically hardcore feminists, then why has society shifted more and more in the wrong direction? The answer to that is the Gramscian march through the institutions.

Post: #19

This is silly.

There are thousands of orphaned children that would love to have a mother.

Beta men are applauded for marrying into being the step-father of some alpha winner's spawn, but no one pressures women to stop thinking only about "their needs" and legitimately be a parent to a kid who actually needs one.

The truth is that women need to birth their own child so that they can get attention.

Post: #20

I feel sorry for these women. They've been cheated by feminism. They were told that getting degrees, becoming career girls, and competing with men would be more fulfilling than the supposed drudgery of being wives and mothers. They were tricked into sacrificing their most fertile years on meaningless jobs to make other men rich when they should have been snagging a husband and starting a family.

But you can't cheat biology. For the vast majority of women, no amount of education or work can replace the babies nature intended them to bear.

The career isn't going to bring you grandchildren in your retirement. A Masters degree won't visit you in your nursing home. The cock carousel comes to an abrupt halt when you hit the wall.

You've sold your birthright for a mess of pottage, ladies.

Post: #21

(08-16-2014 06:01 AM)SteveMcMahon Wrote:  I feel sorry for these women. They've been cheated by feminism. They were told that getting degrees, becoming career girls, and competing with men would be more fulfilling than the supposed drudgery of being wives and mothers. They were tricked into sacrificing their most fertile years on meaningless jobs to make other men rich when they should have been snagging a husband and starting a family.

But you can't cheat biology. For the vast majority of women, no amount of education or work can replace the babies nature intended them to bear.

The career isn't going to bring you grandchildren in your retirement. A Masters degree won't visit you in your nursing home. The cock carousel comes to an abrupt halt when you hit the wall.

You've sold your birthright for a mess of pottage, ladies.

I wouldn't feel too sorry for them. They were tricked as much as the girl who partied and cheated on her boyfriend by sucking 12 random dicks

Post: #22

For those women who try and fail to conceive in their lifetimes at a young age they have my sympathies but these women who delay motherhood "just because" can fuck off.

The NHS in this country is now being sponsored to give these single ladies the chance to conceive with funding help.

Post: #23

I don't feel sorry for them. The word is "sucker" and perfect consumer.

They were told to be independet, free-thinking women and subsequently selected themselves out of the gene pool.

I say it's their own damn fault. Evolution at its finest. Women acting against their own biological impulses. These women don't deserve to raise children let alone young girls.

Post: #24

It's absolutely their own fault and what's more they really weren't ever told to do this or do that.

Who's doing the telling? Society? What is society and culture other than a bunch of human beings deciding to do this and that and women are 50% of that.

Yet it's still insisted that women are "told" to do the things they are doing. How often is it said society is telling men to do something? It's always men are "choosing".

Women are told, men choose. That's what's being sold in the media, but it couldn't be further from the truth.

Post: #25

Pretty heartwarming article. Say what you will of the United States, Britain, or the Western liberalized countries in general, but the fact that these women feel neglected and irrelevant... in the end, that's a redeeming feature of our society. In the past, I'd take that for granted.

But I feel bad for the 49 year-old woman, who started trying at 29 years old. That honestly isn't very late... She probably knew her husband from her mid-twenties before they married, and likely started trying to conceive soon after. My own mother had me at 29, and my little brother at 34, who's almost taller than me now. I genuinely feel sorry for her. Her infertility is undeserved.

I don't like how the article just threw her in with the rest of the women, kind of an angle-shoot. She's the only sympathetic figure who, from an unlucky draw of the genetic lottery, can't have any kids, while the rest were careerist sluts who deliberately chose not to have kids just so that they can play the victim.

Otherwise, it's a pretty decent article.

Quote:She has three masters degrees and is training to be a counsellor - specialising in adolescent and child psychology.

This part struck me as pretty sinister. I wonder if the author intentionally tried to highlight the creepiness factor of these women. They don't have children of their own, so they seek to gain control and influence over the children of women who did succeed.