Post: #1

NYT Article: Harassment in Science, Replicated.

TLDR version: People don't take women seriously in science, woman's answer = men should step in and fix it for them.

Quote:As an undergraduate student in biology, I spent several weeks in Costa Rica one summer with an older graduate student on a research project deep in the cloud forest. It was just the two of us, and upon arriving at our site, I discovered that he had arranged a single room for us, one bed.

Quote:Kathryn Clancy, an anthropologist at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, and three colleagues used email and social media to invite scientists to fill out an online questionnaire about their experiences with harassment and assault at field sites; they received 666 responses, three quarters of them from women, from 32 disciplines, including anthropology, archaeology, biology and geology.

Women make 75% of the complaints despite being 'under-represented' in academia? It's a mystery why no-one wants to hire more.

Quote:Almost two-thirds of the respondents said they had been sexually harassed in the field. More than 20 percent reported being sexually assaulted. Students or postdoctoral scholars, and women were most likely to report being victimized by superiors.

Note how the terms are used without definition. This makes pushing past someone in the corridor sit in the same category as a violent rape. All to support the victim narrative.

Quote:More than half of the female respondents said they weren’t taken seriously because of their gender, one in three had experienced delayed career advancement, and nearly half said they had not received credit for their ideas. Almost half said they had encountered flirtatious or sexual remarks, and one in five had experienced uninvited physical contact.

See the 75% complaint rate above. It's not men who are the problem, it's other women.

Quote:“Our world is small and our resources are scarce,” said another author of the PLOS One report, Julienne Rutherford, a biological anthropologist at the University of Illinois at Chicago. If women are dissuaded or excluded from even a handful of opportunities, she continued, the loss to science is enormous.

Assertion without evidence. Not a good showing for women in science so far.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"

Quote:Most men are not creeps, and they have a powerful role to play here. During a field trip at a journalism conference a few years ago, I had an engaging conversation with a keynote speaker. As we parted, he told me, in front of two other men, “Your husband shouldn’t let you out of the house.”

The two bystanders brushed off this insulting attempt at a compliment. It was easier for them to let it go than to call out a friend, and their behavior said it was all right to treat me like that.

Shock and horror that her magic vagina no longer inspires men to throw their friends under the bus. I wouldn't intervene if a friend told a guy he'd just met that he was an idiot, yet because she's a woman she expects special treatment by virtue of her gender.

Author: Christie Aschwanden. WYB?


There are some really intelligent and capable women in science today, but they are the exception not the rule. And the people who attack them the most are the mediocre women who resent being judged:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamon...ueen-bees/

Comment Wrote:When I was a graduate student in chemistry in the late 80s, there seemed to be two kinds of women in the field: those who competed with other women for the rare female slots and those who helped other women to broaden our participation in the field. The funny thing is, as the numbers of female faculty grew, those of us who worked together started to outnumber those who didn’t. Thankfully, I don’t run into many queen bees in my area anymore.

I.E. The ones who couldn't compete banded together to exclude those who were competent.

"I'd hate myself if I had that kind of attitude, if I were that weak." - Arnold

Post: #2

Meh, it is time for women, to start fixing things themselves they do not like. It is what adults do after all....

Post: #3

(08-13-2014 04:52 AM)Glaucon Wrote:  Meh, it is time for women, to start fixing things themselves they do not like. It is what adults do after all....

The article is yet another demand for successful men to white-knight for these 'independent' women.

There is no request for help here, just another obligation invented by a woman for her benefit and to detriment of men - does she really think a man who complained repeatedly and 'tone-policed' everyone around him would still be respected?

"I'd hate myself if I had that kind of attitude, if I were that weak." - Arnold

Post: #4

Paging Nemencine

Post: #5

Science, especially academic science, is a brutal career. There are unique challenges for both men and women. The most successful scientists I know are the ones who don't bitch. It doesn't mean shitty stuff doesn't happen to them but they're handling it behind closed doors and in a way that doesn't draw the spotlight on themselves. The most career limiting problem I see female scientists face is that a lot of men and women just don't want to work with them. It's not personal - it's just not worth the risk of drama. What makes it more insidious is that you'll never hear any of these people voice that opinion out loud. They're generally socially conscious and aware that voicing such an opinion would be career suicide. So the vocal SJWs have basically silenced the one conversation that would be most beneficial to their careers (how do we have integrated research groups without drama).

A few other notes:
- Academia is somewhere between college and the corporate world so the rules of gender relations are always a bit weird. Male professors bang and marry their students all the time. It happens and it's often times the student who's the aggressor. Post docs fuck grad students and the admin staff on a regular basis. Even grad students (the lowest status members of academia) occasionally bag a staff member or a post doc. The point is it's pretty normal for people to hit on each other. You're spending 16 hours a day of largely unstructured time together, stuff is bound to happen.

- As a dude my work has been attributed to women I worked with by the general media more than once. Once a I lead a team of 2 women on a fairly ambitious project. They were good in the lab but not great creative thinkers. I came up with the idea that helped us get further than other groups who'd tackled the same issue. When the local academic press wrote up the project my name was left completely out of it. The two girls were given all the credit because it made for a better story. That shit happens all the time. If you work with a woman she will draw the spotlight in any press because it fits the narrative of women kicking ass in science.

Post: #6

Online surveys have a snowball effect. If the study explicitly states its about sexual harassment more people are likely to fill out the survey who were harassed compared to those who weren't. That can explain why the vast majority of submissions were from women. Also if you dig into that study the way they verified that each submission was unique is by making sure all the emails were different. I have 6 emails, I could have easily filled this out multiple times if I felt like it. It's not even a question IF this happened because the study states 6% of respondents used the same email. Hmmmm maybe we should ask for more unique identifiers first? Nah, publish the study.

Post: #7

(08-13-2014 08:20 AM)Ensam Wrote:  The most career limiting problem I see female scientists face is that a lot of men and women just don't want to work with them. So the vocal SJWs have basically silenced the one conversation that would be most beneficial to their careers (how do we have integrated research groups without drama).

- As a dude my work has been attributed to women I worked with by the general media more than once. Once a I lead a team of 2 women on a fairly ambitious project. They were good in the lab but not great creative thinkers. I came up with the idea that helped us get further than other groups who'd tackled the same issue. When the local academic press wrote up the project my name was left completely out of it. The two girls were given all the credit because it made for a better story. That shit happens all the time. If you work with a woman she will draw the spotlight in any press because it fits the narrative of women kicking ass in science.

Great post. Two thoughts:
1. So we're back to "you can't have it all" - to succeed in a professional white-collar environment, women must act like men even when working with other women...but successful men have no interest in dating a woman with more testosterone than estrogen. The personal-professional life tradeoff.

2. Ensam, so how do you ensure you get credit in cases like these? I'm not in academia, but in my field, contributions are also often credited to the team.

Post: #8

(08-13-2014 08:20 AM)Ensam Wrote:  The most successful s̶c̶i̶e̶n̶t̶i̶s̶t̶s̶ employees I know are the ones who don't bitch. It doesn't mean shitty stuff doesn't happen to them but they're handling it behind closed doors and in a way that doesn't draw the spotlight on themselves. The most career limiting problem I see female s̶c̶i̶e̶n̶t̶i̶s̶t̶s̶ employees face is that a lot of men and women just don't want to work with them. It's not personal - it's just not worth the risk of drama. What makes it more insidious is that you'll never hear any of these people voice that opinion out loud. They're generally socially conscious and aware that voicing such an opinion would be career suicide. So the vocal SJWs have basically silenced the one conversation that would be most beneficial to their careers (how do we have integrated research groups without drama).

Fixed. What you wrote is 100% true for hospitality and I can only imagine countless other industries.

Post: #9

Quote:My body and my sexuality were openly discussed by my professor and the male students,” the woman wrote. “Comments ensued about the large size of my breasts, and there was speculation about my sexual history.” Her professor, she said, “often joked that only pretty women were allowed to work for him, which led me to wonder if my intellect and skills had ever mattered.

Post: #10

Ensam is absolutely right on the money.

The only Ph.D women i enjoy working with are Asians. If they are white women and they have ph.D, i dont want to work with you or know you. Yes, white women as undergrad or graduate students, are generally the sexual aggressors in these settings. They flirt, they cry, they make their silly little problems everybody else just so that the Principal Investigator(P.I.) could keep giving them breaks. The sad reality is that these female shenanigans works-- they usually get what they wanted. Yes, these white bitches are expert at arse kissing.

There are four other P.Is. that i know who are immune to these female shenanigans, in fact, one of them, dr. weierstrass, enjoy being an absolute dick to women whenever he sniffs their bollocks a mile away. Cool motherfucker too. The rest? They do everything they can to accommodate these white bitches.

Science research programmes do have reserve spots for women. In order for me to get a sweet spot with one of our university stellar researcher, dr. chase, i had to take 4 really difficult classes and aced them. Just to be up for consideration. Guess what you have to do if you are a woman? Nothing. What is infuriating about working alongside these bitches who got in because of their vaginas, is when they started asking for your help with this or that. I know men-- qualified men that didnt get the spot because of these cunts; and you pack of cunts are here because of what? your bloody vaginas? I completely refused to assist them; of course, my refusal gave me a bad reputation. This was before i even know what redpill is or neil strauss book the game.

The special treatment for women is bloody egregious: back at the uni, some professors like dr. kahn will only work with women-- His entire lab is filled from top to bottom with females. The number of special situation grants and awards for women are numerous.

Yes, these white bitches are the cause of 99% of the drama. Dont do your research with them; dont work for them; dont work along them if you can. Choose a male intensive lab or if you must work with a women, make sure they are mostly Asian.

I used to do research on the 3rd floor of a building at the university; i would come in, work and leave, minding my own bloody business. Guess what? some white cunt decided to file sexual harassment claim against me. Here is the bizarre thing: I never saw this cunt before, let alone spoke to her, i dont even fucking know her name. I work on the bloody 3rd floor, i later learned that this cunt work in the fucking basement. You can imagine my confusion when my Principal Investigator told me about the harassment claim. I didnt even know who filed it, let alone what wing or section of the research building the person was working at. It is one thing entirely if i had talked to her or looked at her in anyways; this is completely different and surreal: i dont even know she existed until my P.I. called me to talk to me.

When the issue was investigated, she finally admitted to not knowing me, not speaking to me before, not even running into me before, but somehow, my presence in that building working late at night make her "uneasy". Weirdly, her way of handling that "unease" is to file harassment suits. She has apparently seen and noticed me, even though i did not even know she existed. It was during the investigation that i learned her name is Kelly, that she does her research in the basement section, and finally put a face to the name. When i asked around about my accuser, some of the lads in the building later told me directly how many times they've took turn fucking her. She get passed around a lot. She is the slut of that research wing.

If you are a white woman and you have a ph.d., i am not sure i want to associate with your twitchy, silly white arse. I already realized this in the 3rd year of undergrad, hence i kept my distance. There are plenty of alternative pussies to be had.

Anyways, in other to reconcile her "unease" about me despite the absolute lack of facts, with the practical fact that i need to do my research. I was put on curfew as to how late i can stay in the lab. As always, it is the man who suffers in this kind of a situation.

This goes to Ensam point, i mean, you see ridiculous stuff like this and who in their bloody right mind really want to work with western white women? it is one thing to have accusations with a smidgen of truth, it is another level entirely to conjure up accusations out of thin air.

I can tell you other stories involving professors and their white female grad students, etc.

Anyways, i have this to say:

Except under the penalty of death, i am not doing research under a white woman Principal Investigator. The only P.I. i will work with are Men or Asian women. that is it for me.

Except under the penalty of death, i am not doing research in a lab filled with white women. They will try to milk you and make you do some of their work for them. You will constantly get bombarded with requests for help with this or that. It is a catch-22: you dont want to because it is simply not fair to you; and if you dont help them, well, they will spread malicious gossip about you. On top of that is the stupid drama: i have seen them start drama about who was at the photocopier at what time, and how long that person took at the photocopier. I have seen drama started about who bought donuts and who didnt. I have seen them start drama about the autoclave. This shite is endless.

For research work, the only choice is: Men and Asian women

regards,

Nemencine

Post: #11

Last year, I had a female lab partner for my chem lab. More often than not, I had to fix the stuff that she had fucked up and devote my time to covering her mistakes. This was all done in the name of self-interest. After all of this, she thought I was a "dick" because I insisted that we do things right the first time rather than my having to fix what she did wrong.

Last semester, I had a male lab partner for my organic chemistry lab. We were often the first ones done, and our biggest mistake was placing a TLC (thin layer chromatography) plate the wrong way in solution. Neither of us had to devote time to covering for the other.

Guess which one I enjoyed working with more.

Post: #12

I'll add one more thing to this: there is a lot of junk science and low-level papers and studies being produced by women who have no business doing what they do.

Skepticism is always warranted since the majority of "papers" and "studies", no matter how "peer reviewed" aren't worth the kilobytes used to store them, especially so in the "softer" sciences. But it's doubly and triply warranted when there are a lot of females involved in the research. You should cast an extremely jaded eye on any female-led papers. Not that they're never worthwhile, but the odds are very much against it.

Hard core mathematics appears to be the last refuge because if you can't do it you just can't do it at all. There are zero female Fields medalists last time I counted...

EDIT: the first female Fields medalist was announced today, LOL! So now the count is 1.

Post: #13

(08-13-2014 12:55 PM)Nemencine Wrote:  When the issue was investigated, she finally admitted to not knowing me, not speaking to me before, not even running into me before, but somehow, my presence in that building working late at night make her "uneasy". Weirdly, her way of handling that "unease" is to file harassment suits. She has apparently seen and noticed me, even though i did not even know she existed.

A horrible story.

I genuinely wouldn't feel safe with someone like that once they'd behaved in such an insane way. In that situation I would be strongly tempted to engage in black knighting

Could you not have turned it around and say you felt threatened by her actions and that having her in the building made you feel in danger? "There's something wrong with her and I just want her to get the professional help she needs"

"I'd hate myself if I had that kind of attitude, if I were that weak." - Arnold

Post: #14

All of this sounds familiar.
I dreaded doing group work with women. The few asian females were pleasant and focused on the work not the party later in the week.


When i was doing my undergrad a few years ago there was a terrible incident involving some chemicals ANY high school chem student would know not to heat up or mix with any other.
It was 2 white girls...they weren't paying attention and left a burner on with a chemical that says it shouldn't be heated past a certain temperature.
It exploded and seriously injured 1 guy and 1 girl. The girls who were supposed to be monitoring it were out having a smoke together. They both got a slap on the wrist. The guy had over 50 pieces of glass in his arm and the girl is horribly scared on her right side...

This is why i will never work with a female in the lab. Just plain useless. At least asian or indian women know what they are there for.

Post: #15

Ensam, Nemecine,

Stay strong brothers. You already know you must go 100% Machiavelli when you are in research/academia with females. I'm not in research now, but still shudder with the unpleasant memories many years later. Useless cunts, at best. The female "engineers" I work with, don't even get me started. I watched one google the conversion between W and kW right in front of me.

Never had the pleasure of working with an asian phd female, until last month, when a somewhat pleasant one (7 WB) complimented my shoes out of the blue. I said thanks and made smalltalk, while thinking "Am I in the fucking twilight zone today? WTF does this have to do with anything? I think I should leave the area."

Never, never, never, never let your guard down. Watch what you say at all times. Never be alone with one if you can avoid it. Keep your eyes on the prize (your degree/research) and know we appreciate your quest for knowledge.

Post: #16

(08-13-2014 10:48 AM)polar Wrote:  Great post. Two thoughts:
1. So we're back to "you can't have it all" - to succeed in a professional white-collar environment, women must act like men even when working with other women...but successful men have no interest in dating a woman with more testosterone than estrogen. The personal-professional life tradeoff.

2. Ensam, so how do you ensure you get credit in cases like these? I'm not in academia, but in my field, contributions are also often credited to the team.

I actually like working with competent women. They're out there and actually easier to screen for than competent men. I do my best to help everyone on my team succeed so I've spent some time thinking about what things prevent the women in my group from succeeding and that's what I came up with.

In terms of managing credit it's not really something I'm too worried about. If you do good work the right people will notice. Now that I'm in more of a leadership role when my team succeeds I succeed so it's less of an issue now anyway. I let them have all the credit and look better for it.

Post: #17

I took physics courses in university and almost got a minor in it. Maybe it was the small class sizes... I didn't get the sense that the girls knew less. I did notice they were more forward about working in groups. I generally felt that I got as much help from them as they got from me. This was a 4th year physics lab.

My sample was small but it wasn't a bad experience.

Post: #18

Women who end up in male dominated fields have fathers who wanted boys. They're trying to prove their worth to their fathers.

Women are all about daddy issues.